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April 24, 2009

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Patrick R. Sullivan

If I were defending Pelosi, I'd go to C-Span's website and copy the interview she did with Brian Lamb when her book came out. Then simply ask the jury, 'Does this woman seem smart enough to have understood what she was told in the briefing on interrogation methods?'

hit and run

Krugman:
Sorry, but what we really should do for the sake of the country is have investigations both of torture and of the march to war.


Well. Since Pelosi is using the "they told me about waterboarding, but I had no idea they would actually, you know, use it" defense -- let's go back to one of the arguments in the Dem primary.

Hillary used the same http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/02/14/hillary/index.html>defense about the AUMF, she voted for it because she had no idea that Bush would actually, you know, use military force (like Kerry and Edwards, by the way).

And http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,290850,00.html>Obama called her on it.

And yet there she is, Secretary of State.

Why did Obama make someone who was "irresponsible and naive" Secretary of State?

And will he call Pelosi "irresponsible and naive" for using the same defense?

Of course he will. He is all accountability and transparency and sh*t.

Bless his heart soul.

(Oh, that last part is snarkless, I do, sincerely pray for Obama)

clarice

Interesting you should mention the internments. As I recall it is beyond peradventure of doubt that Roosevelt's order was sustained by the SCOTUS only because the Solicitor General of the US flat out lied to the court.

As for all this damned soul saving, where's Mencken--a big time cigar smoking, card playing, alcohol swilling anti moral preener--when we need desperately one.

Charlie (Colorado)

As a good Buddhist, I know that the whole soul thing is an illusion, maya. Please let Herr Professor Doctor Krugman know that I'll be filing a complaint against him for creating a hostile environment to my religious beliefs.

Rick Ballard

This is Off Obsession but fairly interesting. The Fed Stress Testing appears to be of a "no sweat" nature. In particular, this gem:

Based on information provided by the BHCs, implementation of the proposed changes to FAS 140 could result in approximately $900 billion in assets being brought onto the balance sheets of these institutions. Risk‐weighted assets were increased by about $700 billion to reflect this projected consolidation.
shows a certain relaxing elan to the process. I wonder if all 150 examiners went for unicorn rides together after work.

Charlie (Colorado)

Okay, Stefan Sharansky has just gotten a settlement in his records suit against King County Washington.

For just short of a quarter million bucks.

This would be the one that shows the county ies in trial about contested votes that almost cerainly put Gregoire over the top.

ben

From Powerline...

"A new Rasmussen survey suggests that the Democrats are barking up the wrong tree with their obsessive interest in the waterboarding of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. At this point, at least, common sense reigns:

* 58 percent of voters say the Obama administration's recent release of DOJ memos "endangers the national security of the United States." Fewer than half as many 28 percent, think it "helps America's image abroad." (This suggests that Obama's apology tour hasn't been especially well-received, either.)

* 70 percent also say America's legal system either does a good job of weighing security against individual rights, or puts too much emphasis on individual rights at the expense of security. Only 21 percent say the legal system is "too concerned about protecting national security."

* Only 28 percent want the Obama administration to investigate how the Bush administration treated terrorists. 58 percent want no such investigations.

* Obama's decision to close Guantanamo Bay is now disapproved of by a 46-36 margin, with support for Obama's action declining.

No doubt Obama is smart enough to know that he needs to move on. But will the MoveOn wing of his party let him?"

Charlie (Colorado)

Why did Obama make someone who was "irresponsible and naive" Secretary of State?

A feeling of kinship and familiarity.

bad

These investigations should, where appropriate, be followed by prosecutions — not out of vindictiveness, but because this is a nation of laws.

Krugman must be outraged that Obama is NOT interested in following the law.... all for political convenience...and slogans:

Looking forward, not backwards

Charlie (Colorado)

Dammit, the Sharansky thing even had a link to his page.

Like this.

Link is under name if it doesn't work this time.

bad

Ron Sims, you got some 'splainin' to do!

Ignatz

-Interesting you should mention the internments. As I recall it is beyond peradventure of doubt that Roosevelt's order was sustained by the SCOTUS only because the Solicitor General of the US flat out lied to the court.-

I had heard that clarice.
Also, IIRC, the SCOTUS only ruled on the legality of excluding people from certain areas of the country and pointedly did not rule on the legality of interning a single ethnic group in camps against their will.

verner

Hey Ben, and that poll was probably before Andrew Sullivan found out the Uighurs were moving next door!

Seriously, when people find out that Gitmo detainees will be moving into a fine neighborhood near you--on the people's dime no less.

bad

Obama could lead by example and make them guests in the WH while they get accustomed to freedom. He wants to be his brother's keeper. Her is a chance.

Joe Biden

we should buy each and every one of the terrorists involved in waterboarding their own 7-11.

anduril

I back the CW on this - Washington and the Obama agenda will freeze if Obama does not Move On. So speaking as someone with no love for either Bush or Obama's likely agenda, I say to the Truth Commission idea, bring it on.

Y'know, I think I like this. Principled and practical, winning combo.

MayBee

Obama is going to do the anti-internment camp, and move the enemy in with us. George Steph reports:
Uighurs to US

How long 'til one has a spot on The Huffington Post?

Patrick R. Sullivan
For example, would investigating the crimes of the Bush era really divert time and energy needed elsewhere?

Hey, Krugman's really the Red Queen; 'Verdict first, trial afterward.'

verner

Maybee, guess you could say Obama is doing a reverse Roosevelt. You know, instead of interring inocent people, you import bad people into the country, and pay to put them into a nice family centered neighborhood, with a Freddie Mac loan.

PeterUK

"Hey Ben, and that poll was probably before Andrew Sullivan found out the Uighurs were moving next door!"

Not at all,women's arms have the same effect on him.

PeterUK

"How long 'til one has a spot on The Huffington Post?"

Huffington is an uncovered woman,they are more likely to stone her.

MayBee

I'm wondering if they'll get US Passports (surely they don't have Chinese passports), green cards, stipends, etc.

Patrick R. Sullivan
Ron Sims, you got some 'splainin' to do!

He just became part of the Obama Admin., so, at least, King County is rid of him.

verner

Chinese Nationals MB. And we know what would happen if we sent them back of course--it would be REAL torture.

See, people always went on and on about how inhumane Gitmos was. In reality, keeping many of them away from their own governments was the most humane thing we could possibly do.

But there are limits to compassion.

bad

Patrick, do you think his HUD nomination will be quietly withdrawn because "he wants to spend more time with his family?"

Yeah right.....

Jane

I back the CW on this - Washington and the Obama agenda will freeze if Obama does not Move On. So speaking as someone with no love for either Bush or Obama's likely agenda, I say to the Truth Commission idea, bring it on.

Geez, I'm not the brightest bulb on the planet but why do you think I've been saying "bring it on" for 2 days now!

verner

I don't know what their immigration status will be MB (and wouldn't it be a hoot if they were classified as political asylum refugees!) but I did read that their lawyer is requesting "protection" because she fears "HATE CRIMES"

Seriously. This is Onion material.

MayBee

verner- I know they are Chinese Nationals now, but I can't imagine we could get China to issue them a passport.
Maybe they'd be passport-less, but they'd have to have some status. Refugee? Green card holder?

MayBee

Ha! I posted before I saw your reply.

Steph reports they haven't really decided exactly how to handle this, but we must act as an example to motivate other countries to do same.

I bet other countries will look at us and say, "You're willing to take a few, you should be willing to take 'em all."

bad

Powerline: LUN

The Washington Post reports on the debate within Obama's "inner circle" about whether to release the interrogation details in four top secret memos. According to the Post, by the end it literally was a debate, high school style, with one official selected to argue the "affirmative" and another the "negative."

The Post's report may not be accurate and complete, but if it is, the striking thing about the debate was the absence of any argument in favor of releasing the documents other than partisan gain. Most of the "pro" arguments reported by the Post amount to answers to the "anti" arguments. For example, Defense Secretary Gates supported the disclosures because he thought the information would come out eventually and the White House was willing to promise that CIA officers will not be prosecuted. These are not reasons for releasing the document. They are, in debate parlance, rebuttal not part of the affirmative case in which the advantages of a particular course of action are presented..... One more point. In the Post's account those who argued against releasing details about interrogation techniques were no more high-minded than the other side. Their main argument seems to have been that releasing the information "could spark a national security debate with conservatives that could undermine Obama's broader agenda."

In other words, the debate over which Obama presided was all about what would help Obama. The debaters obviously knew their audience.


hit and run

verner:
See, people always went on and on about how inhumane Gitmos was. In reality, keeping many of them away from their own governments was the most humane thing we could possibly do.

Some day I may tire of the old Al Gore rendition quote...but today is not that day.

Al Gore, Ass Grabber


Snatches, or more properly "extraordinary renditions," were operations to apprehend terrorists abroad, usually without the knowledge of and almost always without public acknowledgement of the host government.... The first time I proposed a snatch, in 1993, the White House Counsel, Lloyd Cutler, demanded a meeting with the President to explain how it violated international law. Clinton had seemed to be siding with Cutler until Al Gore belatedly joined the meeting, having just flown overnight from South Africa. Clinton recapped the arguments on both sides for Gore: Lloyd says this. Dick says that. Gore laughed and said, "That's a no-brainer. Of course it's a violation of international law, that's why it's a covert action. The guy is a terrorist. Go grab his ass."

Well, since the link above is to TigerHawk, let me also include his follow up, since Obama has continued with the rendition policy...

Is Obama an Ass Grabber Too?
(I took some liberty with his title)

Patrick R. Sullivan

Maybe Obama can ask Krugman to take in one of these Uighur guys. That would be good for my soul.

bad

Is Obama an Ass Grabber Too?

I heard he is a BIIIIIIGGGGGG ass grabber...

PeterUK

"We need to do this for the sake of our future. For this isn’t about looking backward, it’s about looking forward — because it’s about reclaiming America’s soul."

In Krugmire's terms America has improved,sixty years ago a couple of cities would be vapourised. Now you give them an early bath.

hit and run

Not taking any chances with typepad eating links, since I mistakenly hit 'post' whil in 'preview'...

http://tigerhawk.blogspot.com/2005/11/al-gore-was-for-extraordinary.html>Al Gore, Ass Grabber

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/washingtondc/la-na-rendition1-2009feb01,0,4661244.story>Obama has continued with the rendition policy

http://tigerhawk.blogspot.com/2009/02/new-renditions-policy-is-it-what-al.html>Is Obama an Ass Grabber Too?

Rick Ballard

"Is Obama an Ass Grabber Too?"

I don't think his arms are long enough, Hit. He might have been at one time butt the breadth of the situation is such that it can no longer be encompassed.

bad

I bow in your direction, Rick. LOL

MarkJ

Uighurs? Wasn't he that dude with the goofy hair in "No Country for Old Men"?

http://www.virginmedia.com/images/ncfom_chigurh_gun-431x300.jpg

Oops, my mistake. That's Anton CHIGURH. However, it doesn't make the Uighurs any less terroristic.

MayBee

Does anybody have any input on Obama's student loan announcement today?

Captain Hate

Has anybody speculated on how the Chicoms will react to the Uighurs not being sent back to them? Maybe they're glad to just be rid of 'em although they seem to be so image conscious that they might view this as an affront. In view of how Bammers has an uncanny ability to arrive at the absolute worst option regarding the interests of the country, I think my skepticism is well-advised.

btw, is this shitty software acting particularly badly for other tonight? This may be a repetitious comment.

Captain Hate

other == others

verner

So Obama is STILL doing illegal renditions.

Do they still have those marxist plane spotters at small airports to keep us a breat of this evil crime?

Calling Dana Priest!

Oh, I forgot, Mrs. Goodfellow only does hit pieces on Republicans.

bad

PeterUK, we haven't advanced so far that Obama cringes at killing innocents in Pakistan. He accepts the concept of collateral damage in a country with which we are not at war.

hit and run

"hit pieces"

HEY!

verner

I speculated Capt. I posted the LA times article this AM,

I think they'll be massively PO'd.

And trust me, they know exactly how to get rid of em.

Sheesh....waterboarding.

Thomas Collins

By all means let's have a Truth Commission. Debra Burlingame should be the Chair. Among the topics that the Truth Commission should examine are the following:

1. What were the Bush Administration's reasonable expectations as to al-Qeada's capabilities and plans after 9/11? See LUN for a good place to start on this inquiry.

2. What did Pelosi know and when did she know it?

3. What were the statements of Democrats both before and after the start of the Iraq War on Saddam's WMD capabilities? Especially of interest would be the views of Dems on the Intelligence Committees.

4. Given what we now know about the UN Oil For Food program, is there any reasonable expectation that Saddam could have been toppled without force?

5. If enhanced interrogation is illegal and immoral, is sending prisoners to other countries for such interrogation less illegal or immoral? Has Obama stopped this practice? If Obama has not stopped this practice, has Obama been taken to task by those arguing for prosecution of Bush, Cheney, Yoo and others?

6. How did other Presidents respond to threats against the homeland? FDR's actions might be a place to start.

7. How many other countries have examined in such excruciating detail the legality of enhanced interrogation? Perhaps Val Putin might be of help by assessing the interrogation of Checens. Fidel and Raul might want to chime in on interrogation of Cuban political dissidents. Sarkozy could make French intelligence available for interviews. Perhaps the French could enlighten us on the no doubt scrupulously reasonable techniques used in interrogation of suspected Algerian terrorists.

8. What is the extent of the free time and uncollected disbursements rendered by large law firms to Guantanamo detainees and other suspected terrorists, as opposed to said free time and disbursements foregone on behalf of the families of the killed and injured in the 9/11 attacks, and on behalf of responders who have suffered injury in the course of responding to 9/11.

I'd say that's a pretty good start for the Debra Burlingame led Truth Commission.

bad

What was the announcement, Maybee?

Captain Hate

Thanks verner; I was pretty busy this morning and didn't notice. Yeah they'd know how to deal with those vermin; certainly better than Ann Dunham's mistake who's making us look like a bunch of clueless metros.

MayBee

bad- the government is going to become the direct lender of student loans.

PeterUK

"Has anybody speculated on how the Chicoms will react to the Uighurs not being sent back to them?"


Very badly,they already have the Uighur's body parts up on eBay.

PeterUK

"He accepts the concept of collateral damage in a country with which we are not at war."

Of course,Obama is a lefty,kick a friend,hug an enemy.It's the liberal way.

verner

Excellent TC

Rick Ballard

"the government is going to become the direct lender of student loans."

MayBee,

More probable - Obama is going to fund the Ojugend Greenshirts through the Department of Education. Sign up to help the (D)irty Socialist Party and have your tuition paid.

clarice

PUK--!!!!!!!!!!!!

verner

Here's the logic that the left is giving us on waterboarding--

Since we're lobbing hellfires on Pakistan, a country we're not at war with, what's keeping the CIA from blowing up some Canadian farm family or having the police use them to kill speeders.

Fair Play and all that.

bad

More govt jobs. Oh goody...

Soylent Red

OT

Never mind me folks. Just doing a test post from my old computer.

MayBee

If Cuba asked us if we wanted to take some of their political prisoners- our choice of who- would we?

Soylent Red

Test

MayBee

That's what I'm afraid of, Rick. He's already stated it's his dream to have college for all who want it. This seems like step 1 in the process of the gov't just deciding some people don't have to pay.

Thomas Collins

Won't work, Soylent Red. Anything posted here is fit for comment.

So, I would comment that Soylent Red's "Never mind me" request must be rejected, because it is useful to always be mindful of what Soylent Red posts. So there!! :-))

bad

I'm confused about college for all, and green jobs. Does one need a degree to install solar panels or build windmills?

bad

Maybee, the more people who don't pay for college will make it that much more expensive for those who do.

OTOH, maybe Bill Ayers needs a raise...

Rick Ballard

"This seems like step 1 in the process of the gov't just deciding some people don't have to pay."

Yup. Free college for the dimwits living in their 3BR 3BA reparations housing. Not many degrees though - until and unless a college degree is debased to the point of being valueless. Like everything else the (D)irty socialists touch.

bad

Think how many votes you could buy if the government makes the loans and then decides loan forgiveness would be economically stimulative...income based, of course.

clarice

All you have to do is insufficiently fund the collection of the loan debt, bad.

Soylent Red

There you go Rick. Once college tuition becomes part of a settle ment for some variety of agrievement, or once college tuition is a means of incentivizing certain career paths, the degrees will become valueless.

Look for a sharp uptick in "______ Studies" majors, and in "students' rights" groups demanding review of grading policies. I could see legislation allowing students to unionize and collectively bargain.

I say bring it on. If we continue to produce intellectual midgets in the halls of higher ed, I will be in a better position to rule the world.

BTW, OT...

If you've never hooked up and gone through an old computer, it's a real trip. Next time you upgrade computers, tuck your old one away somewhere for several years. I have a little timecapsule of my life up until 14FEB07. Pretty neato.

bad

I have a little timecapsule of my life up until 14FEB07.

Well sure, Soylent. For a fabulous, always been a great person like yourself, looking at the details of your past life is a pleasure.

Those of us who are "bad" are trying to forget our sordid past...

MayBee

I'm confused about college for all, and green jobs. Does one need a degree to install solar panels or build windmills?

According to his speech, we need college because of China and India. I think he finds it impossible to believe that in countries with 1.3 and 1.1 billion people, there are going to be a couple thousand good enough in math to get jobs in the US.

DrJ

If you've never hooked up and gone through an old computer, it's a real trip.

Indeed. One of these days I will bring up one that served me from 1981 'til 1989 or so. I still have all the 8" floppies...

boris

DEC?

flodigarry

Isn't there some spare land on the Bikini Atoll where we can "settle" these folks?

Rick Ballard

"there are going to be a couple thousand good enough in math to get jobs in the US."

China has pumped the number of degrees awarded by over 400% in 7 years - from 1.45 million in 2002 to 6.1 million in 2009. Only 7% of China's 2009 graduates have job offers and 30% of the Class of '08 has yet to be hired. I'm sure the (D)irty Socialists under Dear Leader Obama can do as well for American youth as the Chicoms do for Chinese youth.

It's almost as if that "diminishing return" thingy had some basis in fact.

Soylent Red

30% of the Class of '08 has yet to be hired.

"Free time for 70% of the population was created or saved!"

DrJ

DEC?

No, a CompuPro. It is a classic and very powerful (for the time) S100 machine.

The DECs of those days were terribly expensive -- like high tens or low hundreds of thousands of dollars.

boris

Sure, based on the dates I considered the possibility that a work mini eventually found it's way into your basement. As happened with me (not DEC though).

DrJ

Sorry, boris, I bought this computer in grad school. at "only" $7K. I did all my thesis calculations on it, as well as all the (pre-internet) usenet things.

1200 Baud modems!

clarice

Pardon me for saying so but this is the soul thread.
I've now seen my second movie starring Javier Bardem and I am so in love. HALP!!

cathyf

I skipped the 1200 baud modem -- went straight from the 300 to the 2400. Not too long afterwards, I bought a really hot modem. A telebit trailblazer 9600 baud modem. Only cost me 1000 bucks. Yep, heady days -- back in 1991 I was some hot shit!

bad

Speaking of no soul:

[[[In a meeting with House Republicans at the White House Thursday, President Obama reminded the minority that the last time he reached out to them, they reacted with zero votes -- twice -- for his stimulus package. And then he reminded them again. And again. And again.

A GOP source familiar with the meeting said that the president was extremely sensitive -- even "thin-skinned" -- to the fact that the stimulus bill received no GOP votes in the House. He continually brought it up throughout the meeting.

Obama also offered payback for that goose egg. A major overhaul of the health care system, he told the Republican leadership, would be done using a legislative process known as reconciliation, meaning that the GOP won't be able to filibuster it.]]]]

Thin-skinned? oh my....

LUN

bad

Bawdy Madams

Must we discuss Nancy again...

Rick Ballard

Bad,

All the Reps had to do was show the (D)S leader this.

30% for Specter seems a little high for a socialist butt kisser but it is PA.

Sending Toomey $20 per month is a very small price to pay for getting Specter out of the Senate.

bad

WOW, Rick!! That's incredible.

DrJ

I skipped the 1200 baud modem -- went straight from the 300 to the 2400.

Actually I did too. I still have my Hayes 2400 Baud modem in a drawer. Maybe it is time to move it out.

You think?

clarice

Well, Pa is becoming more and more Democrat so I don't know what that signifies Rick.

I think bypassing the normal procedure to get this health plan thru calls for something more than a 0 Republican vote. The Reps have to do something really dramatic to draw public attention to what's going on.

bad

PBS Interview LUN:

[[[[[National Economic Council Director Lawrence Summers is championing the $787 billion stimulus bill President Obama signed in February to spur economic activity. But eight years ago, he had a different view. "The idea that a huge spending program is the way to stimulate the economy, or the idea that the way to get better at high tech is for the government to take over the technology industries, these kinds of ideas basically have become passe because they've been disproven," Summers said in an April 2001 interview with PBS. "They don't represent a reading of experience." Citing his "enormous respect" for conservative economist Milton Friedman, Summers said, "There is something about this epoch in history that really puts a premium on incentives, on decentralization, on allowing small economic energy to bubble up rather than a more top-down, more directed approach, that may have been a more fruitful approach in earlier years."]]]]

My, how times change....

More at the corner

Foxwood

Let's go surfin' now
Everybody's learnin' how
Do some waterboardin' with me!

Topsecretk9

Obama also offered payback for that goose egg. A major overhaul of the health care system, he told the Republican leadership, would be done using a legislative process known as reconciliation, meaning that the GOP won't be able to filibuster it.]]]]

If he's whining and crybabing incessantly that he got no GOP support on the stimulus, how is it payback to keep GOP from having any part in the Health care process????

You guys made me so mad not giving the stimulus bill bi-partisan cover and leaving it all on the Democrats plate that we are going see that the same thing happens with healthcare, so take that! I don't care what anyone says, even without Filibuster drama, Democrats NEED bi-partisan support on their socialism bills if they want to stay where they are come November after next.

drjohn

"and of the march to war."

Didn't we already do this, or do we need to keep doing until we get to the desired result?

narciso

Porter Goss, delivers the smackdown, which of course is why they thought to run him out on a rail, in favor of Hayden, now if he can only explain why he authorized the
tap on Pelosi. Weisman, in his roman a clef "Direct Action" postulates it was the
CIA's inability to conduct operations like the one that nabbed the people behind the
Dec 23rd Air France plots, that ultimately
led to Tenet's ouster.

RebeccaH

When they speak of the nation's "soul", they actually mean the philosophy and principles on which this nation was founded. And that includes self-protection.

Unfortunately, if you're waiting for our president to do the right thing, you unrealistically expect this particular one to transcend politics.

anduril

hit, do you think it's possible that Clinton misunderstood Gore's "Go grab his ass" as "Go grab some ass"?

ThomasD

Screw the Truth Commissions.

We need trials.

With juries.

And lots of discovery.

That'll be interesting.

Face it, Obambi and his peeps are wimps. They couldn't even bring themselves to a decision over the pirate standoff. They'll talk tough and try to intimidate but they have no taste for brass tacks, much less brass knuckles. You think they'd ever risk the chance of jury nullification?

The America hating leftists that are driving this 'controversy' need to be told to put up or shut up.

NaSa

Oh brother.. it is sorely disappointing to read all the opinions here.

I CANNOT BELIEVE that this nation is not having a national conversation on race and instead is wasting its time discussing how best to defend itself against people who are so obviously innocent and have been imprisioned simply because they unfortunately happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It is time to start building the perfect Union - (actually it's 373 days past time, but its ok to start now )

-Your 1st Almost 100% black Prez Barack H Obama

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