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April 13, 2009

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PeterUK

"Evolution in, God out."

Survival of the fittest in - Religion based morality out.

Sue

So, is evolution in, God out, therefor Columbine results a fair statement based on the letter? And isn't that what Krugman essentially claims DeLay said?

Posted by: Appalled | April 14, 2009 at 09:56 AM

If Krugman wanted to make the point that the author of a letter read by Delay was code for taking God out of our schools, then he should have said that. I'm sure Delay would tell you straight up taking God out of our schools caused a decline in morals. Krugman should ask him. Instead of making shit up.

fdcol63

" .. For anyone wondering whatever became of Carol Herman, she's starting flame wars over at Lucianne."

But is it lucid? LOL

Old Lurker

Texas shows the way ahead.

LUN

narciso

Why would you expect that from her now, as opposed to then, BTW Taranto picks a prescient quote from Lord Rove, which
Krugman satirized, but of course find proof with the One 1.0, Deval Patrick's remarks

clarice

I regard appalled's posts as a litmus test of the reader's mental health. If they don't give you a headache to read because they are so preposterous and logic twisting, take yourself in for a check up pronto..you've got a loose neuron somewhere.

PeterUK

The existance of Liberals is the biggest argument against "intelligent Design" there is.

daddy

Clarice,

Before I dug this Groh guy's article up I had never heard of him. I'm uncertain of where he's coming from and some of what he says doesn't jibe with what I believe to be factual, but I linked him because at least he referenced this Wev Shea guy I was thinking about. I don't know either of these characters at all, nor their track records in Alaska, nor how they are viewed by the public up here. But I did finally track down 2 Wev Shea articles from January which I will now link to, and which show that he was way out ahead of folks on this whole fiasco well before anybody else. Here is his bio,">http://www.alaskadispatch.com/about/contributors/13/562">bio, his his">http://www.alaskadispatch.com/tundra-talk/9-talk-of-the-tundra/596-the-corrupt-unethical-prosecution-of-senator-ted-stevens">his first Defense of Steven's story, and his second">http://www.alaskadispatch.com/tundra-talk/9/633">second article.

I pass these on to you in hopes that with your legal background you can determine if what he says seems well thought out and makes sense. If they do, I will continue to try digging up more of what this guy has written.

sbw

Appalled, what class in public school covers ethics?

school systems teach the children that they are nothing but glorified apes who have evolutionized out of some primordial soup of mud.

Whether or not we are glorified apes, we can manufacture ethics, if we so choose. Nowhere in the NYS curricula I have studied in detail adequately addresses the study of ethics. To settle for teaching evolution without addressing ethics leads to social problems of the sort identified by the letter that Delay read.

Please, appalled, when someone points something out, do not look at the end of the finger.

boris
he said that it contributed (and he, essentially, said the availability of guns had not). There is a nuance between the two positions, but it is not as large as you think. (Both positions are daft.)
If anything guns in our history used to be more accessible to young adults. So that position is not daft. Something has changed but accesibility is not it. It would be more honest for your position to say: "regardless of what has changed our historic access to firearms is no longer tolerable."

Instead the first argument made is to deny that historic access.

As to "nothing but glorified apes" ... I F that is an accurate description of what's taught to young adults then it is irrelevant if you or Krugworm consider that "teaching evolution" because it clearly could be part of whatever it really is that makes our historic access to firearms a modern problem (if it in fact is one).

clarice

daddy, if you or anyone else is interested here's an interesting take on prosecutorial misconduct:
http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/JusticeProjectReport.pdf

Appalled

clarice:

While an ad hom is always fun and I sure do not want to get in the way of your fun, tell me where the logic twist in my post happens? Where's that fatal flaw of delusion? (You can get yourself a Tylenol first. I'll wait.)

sbw:

Ok, your argument is that if classes are going to be neutral on religion, there should be classes on ethics. I'm not sure that was Sue's argument, exctly, but it is one I really haven't considered. If DeLay's considered it, I wouldn't mind hearing it.

Porchlight

Texas shows the way ahead.

Go, Texas! Thanks OL for the link. As the bumper sticker says, I wasn't born here, but I got here as fast as I could.

Now I just have to get out of Austin. :)

boris

where the logic twist in my post

If some teacher claims that 2 + 2 = 55 ....

Would you call that "teaching mathmatics"?

... Nevermind ... if you haven't got it yet you never will.

boris

As the troll from Assclownistan once wrote "it's not like algebra where a negative plus a negative equals a positive".

Dunno if that's true in Assclownistan but here about that's not "algebra".

Appalled

boris:

When I wrote "Both positions are daft", I was talking about the positions: "teaching of evolution in the schools led to Columbine" and "teaching of evolution in the schools contributed to Columbine". That's not your fault for reading things the way you did; it's mine for writing imprecisely.

clarice

Appalled..no way am I wandering thru that thicket of logical brambles again. Once was enough to put me on the fainting couch crying out for Boris and Cathy and Cecil to rescue me from terminal jumble-itis.

boris

"Both positions are daft"

Delay didn't claim either one. You are making the equivalence between "nothing but glorified apes" and teaching evolution.

If that is not clearly dishonest and unfair to your way of thinking then you should change your moniker to "Selectively Appalled".

fdcol63

Texas .... it's like a whole other country.

StrawmanCometh

Carol has cut and run, all of her comments have disappeared. Dunno if it was admin or self inflicted. Hope she's not coming back here.

Sue
I'm not sure that was Sue's argument, exctly, but it is one I really haven't considered.

My argument is what I think the author of the letter was implying when he mentioned evolution. That, and Krugman should ask Delay instead of using Barney Frank's ridicule of the letter written by a constituent in Texas to make Delay look like a flatearther. I mean, that's the point of everything written by those who ridicule Christians. I can give you 2 examples if you need them. Bush. Palin. And for the cherry on top, we can now add Delay.

Appalled

Clarice:

OK, I'll leave you prostrate on your fainting couch. Just don't sue me for mental distress, OK?

boris:

The phrase in question is this:

It couldn't have been because our school systems teach the children that they are nothing but glorified apes who have evolutionized out of some primordial soup of mud.

The letter itself is written a rhetorical style that makes it hard to excerpt coherently, but you need to explain why that quoted passage does not refer to the teaching of evolution. Else I'll have to retire to my fainter with a cool washcloth on my forehead.

cathyf

Hey, daddy, I'm reading through those two Wev Shea articles that you linked to. Speaking as an Illinoisan, it sure looks like your classic "logrolling perjury" scheme.

Rick Ballard

I wonder what Krugman makes of Barry the Bastard's abuse of Scripture today? Barry's eisegesis problem is common among dirty socialists (especially those whose theological training was provided by The Right Racist Reverend Wright) but I believe he's about to find out that not everyone is as credulous as the cretins at TUCC.

The Obaconomy plan is loose gravel piled on a steep slope. He's as good at economics as he is at theology.

Appalled

Sue:

I think we agree on what Krugman was up to -- ridiculing fundamentalists and tea patyers by calling up memories of the Monkey Trial, Elmer Gantry, and other assorted horrors. I just don't think he materially misrepresented DeLay to accomplish his rhetorical mission. (I think he corrupted some nuance -- and that's it.)

Old Lurker

Porch, as mentioned before in rants about state taxes in which I lament my decades of Maryland residency, I allowed as to how Mrs. Lurker and I have been visiting zero-income tax states as possible 183 day/yr locations. I have kidded Clarice about her future use of Florida for that.

With that objective in mind, we just spent some time with friends in Austin and had a lovely time with boating on the lakes and enjoying the bars, restaurants, and BBQ places. Wow it was great! Until I investigated the politics and concluded I was back in Maryland...

So I feel your pain!

Sue

Appalled,

I don't think Krugman materially misrepresented Barney Frank's ridicule of what Tom Delay read. How's that?

Charlie (Colorado)

While an ad hom is always fun and I sure do not want to get in the way of your fun, tell me where the logic twist in my post happens?

I don't feel up to a detailed technical explication, but you might start with the notion that just because Krugman

-badly paraphrased
-Barney Frank's malicious paraphrase
-of an out of context fragment of a letter to the editor in San Antonio,
- that was read into the record whole and with full attribution by Tom Delay,

and stated that misquoted, our of context, misattributed multiple paraphrase as Tom DeLays actual beliefs.

daddy

Clarice,

Thank you. I can see that that prosecutorial link is going to require a bit of my time but I scanned through it and read the specific part referencing Stevens. It is a shame that we have to continue to promulgate so many codes/regulations/procedures etc, in order to try to keep folks who ought to know better from doing wrong. In a sense it is like todays uncommoness of common sense, or Appalled not being appalled at Krugman's obvious disengenuous and unfairness. It puts me in mind of de Tocquevilles famous statement about America:

"America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great."

Whether it is the particulars of the overzealous Prosecution in the Stevens Case, or the continual dishonesty of this Krugman column or so many other Times columns in general, the daily practice of dishonesty by folks who ought to know better continually pushes us towards a crass culture where the good is assaulted by the dishonest and de Tocqueville's observation comes daily more pertinent.

Porchlight

but you need to explain why that quoted passage does not refer to the teaching of evolution

Appalled,

I can't speak for boris, but imo you have bolded the wrong word. The point I think the writer of the letter is trying to emphasize is this:

It couldn't have been because our school systems teach the children that they are nothing but glorified apes who have evolutionized out of some primordial soup of mud.

The "nothing but" is the crucial part - again, in my interpretation of the writer's meaning.

And the larger takeaway is, Delay read a long letter with many points. In my interpretation of the author's meaning, all these listed factors have contributed to the diseased society which produced Columbine, but liberals only want to focus on the easy availability of guns. So cherry picking just the part referring to the teaching of evolution in order to make Delay look like a flatearther, as Sue said, is dishonest.

boris

does not refer to the teaching of evolution

Why go that far? The relevant phrase is "teach the children that they are nothing but glorified apes". That is not teaching evolution regardless of what context it comes from.

A better argument from your POV would be that's a distortion of evolution or even an expected lesson taken from evolution but no reasonable teacher would actually teach that to children.

So that's what makes it unfair. You nor Krugworm know if Delay would object to teaching evolution if it avoided instilling the lesson that children are nothing but glorified apes.

Quantum Mechanics is a historical achievement comparable to evolution and they both should be covered to a degree. I certainly would object to the many worlds interpretation of wave function collapse being falsely used to teach children postmodernist philosophy.

fdcol63

Krugman put Barney Frank's inane and misrepresentative words into Delay's mouth, words that Delay never spoke, and then used those words as quotes from Delay himself to misrepresent, ridicule, and slander Delay (and by extension, others on the political right).

So, Appalled, I disagree. Krugman materially misrepresented Delay to achieve his objective, and I don't think ANY of the rest of us are too dense to see the nuance.

Porchlight

Wow it was great! Until I investigated the politics and concluded I was back in Maryland...

Yes, that's the rub. Austin has many great qualities, but a wholesome, heterogeneous, easygoing political scene is not one of them. It can get pretty toxic around here.

But don't let that discourage you from Texas in general! Austin is the exception not the rule, as I'm sure many other JOM Texans will testify.

clarice

daddy:"It is a shame that we have to continue to promulgate so many codes/regulations/procedures etc, in order to try to keep folks who ought to know better from doing wrong"

Actually, I think the problem is that we legally charge prosecutors in effect to act against their interests in giving up to the other side in hotly contested matters in which the prosecutors think they have a real baddy in their sights information that will help that guy get off.

What I like about the law pdf I cited is that it supports open file systems (among other things) which instantly make all that information available to the defense rather than putting the decision in the hand of prosecutors who are often blinded as to the bigger picture or the notion that the person they think is guilty, isn't.

sbw

ChaCo: I don't feel up to a detailed technical explication, but ...

Well put. 'Nuff said. Appalled, you lost game, set, and match. But you don't care. You just wanted to create enough noise so the signal got lost.

Wish I knew what you stood for.

... No I don't.

narciso

The Columbine kids only went on their gun spree, because they plan to blow up the school with propane tanks failed. and they were able to carry on their plot, because too many in the community weren't able or willing to 'connect the dots'. In any case, it's a distraction from the main point of the argument. Just like bringing up two columns when Krugman mused that the picture
of Bush in a flight suit, would lead to an era of charismatc 'men on horseback (well he was right but not in the way he meant it)
or his complaint, pre Iraq War, in a German
publication, that he was going to be sent to Gitmo, because he opposed the Bush administration (Ironically, a NY Times reporter was sent to prison, in part because of misrepresentations made in the times, and by the likes of an overzealous prosecutor)

The point is the comment had to 'dowdified' in order to score a rhetorical point, like
evidence had to be suppressed in the Stevens
case, to make the conviction possible, and the Governor's comments had to be first edited, than distorted to make the right impression. This is the currency of the left.

daddy

glasater,

About 3 years back was flying over the Atlantic during an eclipse of the moon by earth. At altitude the stargazing is amazingly clear, and on this particular night, when the moon was entirely covered in shadow, the bloody red glow of the moon, from the red wavelengths of light able to penetrate the Earth's athmosphere and still reach the moon, were simply spectacular. Just like this!">http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap010118.html">this!

Sue

Tom,

We need a thread on the DHS's report on "right wing extremism".

clarice

WOW..Daddy, one day we all have to hop aboard one of your flights and go someplace interesting with you captaining us. I cannot imagine more engaging company.

Charlie (Colorado)

It is a shame that we have to continue to promulgate so many codes/regulations/procedures etc, in order to try to keep folks who ought to know better from doing wrong.

Most of the time, when something requires rules and regulations to get people to do the right thing, it's because there is some strong motivator for doing the wrong thing.

With prosecutors, it would appear that there are several

- measuring prosecutors on their conviction ratio, which leads to things like plea deals and fudging evidence

- prosecutors who are under the control of politicians who see on which side their bread is buttered

- politicians who see popular prosecutions as in their interest whether justified or not, and who often get that political advantage out of a high-publicity investigation, whether they ever find an actual crime or not

... along with a lack of consequences for this sort of thing. (The difficulty of seeing something as egregious as Mike Nifong's malfeasance punished is the exception that proves the rule: the same accusation, made of a bunch of millworkers at a stripper bar, with the same combination of political ambition and political correctness, would have put a bunch of millworkers in jail, probably on plea bargains, and put Nifong on track to be a Senator.)

Ignatz

The existance of Liberals is the biggest argument against "intelligent Design" there is.

Au contraire, PUK.

God created slime molds, nematodes and flat worms, why not liberals?

They're actually an argument against evolution; just what exactly is a liberal "fittest" for?

sbw

Re: DHS Extremism, this email was sent to my congresscritter:

Dear ****,

I see the new report from the Department of Homeland Security's Extremism and Radicalization Branch, Homeland Environment Threat Analysis Division, coordinated with the FBI, called "Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment" that discusses those who reject "federal authority in favor of state or local authority" and those who "are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration." [IA-0257-09]

Would you please send me the current report on the subject for "Leftwing Extremism".

Thank you.

Charlie (Colorado)

SBW, it would be interesting to ask the same question in an interview with the guy, or to seek an interview with the authors of the report.

Charlie (Colorado)

God created slime molds, nematodes and flat worms, why not liberals?

Well, slime molds are both amusing and useful.

daddy

Charlie,

I hadn't thought of that but it makes a lot of sense. If Nifong hadn't been caught by the brilliant legal team the LaCrosse boys had access to, and if they were instead just unfunded, uneducated dummies, Nifong would be a hero to much of North Carolina, and quite possibly well on his way up the political ladder. Absolutely frightening. Anybody remember what political party Nifong was a member of?

Sue

Nifong is a democrat.

Rick Ballard

"Anybody remember what political party Nifong was a member of?"

I believe reporting had him as a Dem in the beginning,. By the end he was completely apolitical, according to all the reporting concerning the matter. Why do you ask?

Porchlight

Heh, Rick. Funny how that works.

Sue

In other news, Specter is openly asking democrats to become republicans, at least for a day, because Toomey is announcing his run for Specter's seat. Don't forget, send money to Toomey!!!

PeterUK

"Both positions are daft"

If you could let us know which pages of the Karam Sutra you are on?

Cecil Turner

By the end he was completely apolitical . . .

Heh. Since the point of the exercise was to curry favor with black voters for the Democratic primary, it's a bit hard to hide that one.

StrawmanCometh

re:Nifong
If you need a gastro purge, LUN.
No, it's not a parody site.

PeterUK

"I think we agree on what Krugman was up to -- ridiculing fundamentalists and tea patyers by calling up memories of the Monkey Trial, Elmer Gantry, and other assorted horrors".

Isn't that emanating beyond the penumbra?

Sue

Strawman,

Good grief. Did you read the comic strip?

sbw

emanating beyond the penumbra?

Oh, yeah! Same to you, buddy!

Appalled

Charlie:

1. While DeLay was quoting a letter -- he extravigantly praised the contents of it. (See the full quote above).It is certainly fair to state that the letter reflected DeLay's views back in 1999.

2. The question really boils down to -- is the difference between "the teaching of evolution in schools contributed to Columbine" (what the letter implied) and "the teaching of evolution in schools caused Columbine" (what Krug said DeLay said) so great that there's a material misrepresentation if you say the latter. I find the former idea utterly daft -- so perhaps I don't see much space between the two. I consider it a matter of nuance that was crushed (probably without much thought by the good Krug). I realize that others might disagree -- but they really should know where the disagreement occurrs.

Appalled

PUK:

If you could let us know which pages of the Karam Sutra you are on?

On what page should I be looking?

sbw:

Wish I knew what you stood for.

On this one, I stand for the principle that the truth is not necessarily what you think it is. And also that political argument is not always fought according to Hoyle, or even Robert's Rules. Overstatements and outright mockery are part of the game.

On other issues - well, that depends on the issue, doesn't it

... No I don't.

Oops, my bad....

Boris:

Nice try on your argument, but then, why would the guy use the word "evolutionize". I respect the author of that letter enough to figure he has the talent to say what he meant.

StrawmanCometh

Sue,
I hadn't. Good grief doesn't begin to cover it.

PeterUK

"On what page should I be looking?"

Start with page one,then take a shower.

Appalled

PUK:

Wouldn't that get the book wet?

PeterUK

"Wouldn't that get the book wet?"

Only if you forget to leave it outside the shower.Try not to complicate things for your self.

JM Hanes

Strawman;

"No, it's not a parody site."

It sure saves the satirists a lot of work though, doesn't it? As a North Carolinian and an American, I felt it incumbent on me to investigate the entrenched extremists who were antagonistic to the Easley adminstration's perceived stance on Mike Nifong and who attempted to capitalize on related racial and political prejudices in expanded propaganda campaigns:

How many members, I asked Harr, are in the Committee on Justice for Mike Nifong? "If you join, that'll be three," he said. "You can have any title you want, as long as it is not president."

That title belongs to Durham community activist Victoria Peterson, who, because of her advocacy on behalf of [convicted murderer] Michael Peterson as well as Nifong, could soon become known as the patroness saint of lost causes.

"The wheels of justice move slowly," Peterson said when I asked whether she thought they'd get Nifong's license reinstated, "but they move. You must have people willing to stick their necks out. There are a lot of people who feel that he didn't get a fair trial."

None, apparently, who are willing to, in Victoria Peterson's words, stick their necks out and join the committee.

Typical! Women always fall for the bad boys, don't they?

fdcol63

Liberals and Leftists serve a very important function:

They remind the rest of us that we're right.

LOL

Jane

We need a thread on the DHS's report on "right wing extremism".

Sue

I talked a little about it on my radio show. I just saw it a few minutes before I went on so it wasn't much.

I also talked about your Governor's attempt to save the 10th amendment - a laughable practice here.

Patrick R. Sullivan
Now the nuance you guys are missing is that I think of Krugman not as a nobel prize winning economist, but as just another Olbermann type.

Which is a particularly stupid way to think about Krugman. He's trained, as an economist (which is how he clearly thinks of himself), to avoid logical fallacy. Yet he constantly betrays his profession by doing just that. In this case it was making a straw man argument--or relying on one created by Barney Frank.

And you have to be pretty lacking in self awareness to call someone you dislike 'crazy' when you've gotten yourself in as much hot water over the years as Krugman. Or, even more ironic, Barney Frank.

Krugman should get a Pot, Kettle, Black Award to accompany his other hardware.

JM Hanes

Appalled"

"I realize that others might disagree -- but they really should know where the disagreement occurrs."

You parse out a definition-of-is defense for Krugman, in order to admonish those who object for hypocrisy. Outright propaganda is just a simple matter of thoughtlessly crushed nuance! Except, you really don't think it's propaganda do you? I suspect you believe it's accurate. That's where I think the disagreement really occurs.

JM Hanes

Appalled:

I should rephrase. I don't have to suspect you think Krugman is accurate, because you have asserted that you do. What I suspect is that he is representing your own view of Delay.

DebinNC

Do the three Duke victims still have arrest records they must explain to future employers?
An effort in Alaska to destroy the arrest records of indisputable victims of false accusations is being fought by LE. It's galling that the Duke victims were left with arrest records while false accuser Crystal Mangum wasn't even charged with misdemeanor false reporting.

Jane

This is bad news:

Murtha immune from Marine's defamation suit

LUN

glasater

Daddy~

Here is my pathetic effort at photographing a Lunar Eclipse a year from this last February. Was trying to capture that "orange/red" look that you described and saw from your link.
I was running outside to take a shot and then running in my home to get warm and check the NASA site for camera settings. As you can see from the "bulge" on the bright side of the moon--the earth's rotatio/movement is pretty evident at even at .5 second exposure.
I understand a little about astrophotography and have tremendous admiration for the wonderful images those photographers produce. It is a ton of work. Forty hours for an exposer is incredible.
And I'm glad for you to be able to see more closely and clearly the heavens that we on the ground view for the most part through a haze.

PeterUK

"Murtha immune from Marine's defamation suit "

But not from the Grim Reaper and tempus fugit.

Appalled

JMH:

I believe DeLay, unprompted, would say that the teaching evolution in schools is a symptom of the moral decay that allowed Columbine to happen.

I do share a disdain for DeLay that's mostly based on his actions during the Terry Schaivo case. I did not much notice him before then.

Sue

Jane,

I am astounded. Not at Perry, but at the 9 page pdf sent out by the DHS.

clarice

Well, to find for Wuterich would mean an expansion of the Golden Fleece case I suppose..I'd like to see the opinion before I say anything though. I take it Wuterich will go on to the SCOTUS.

The Chinese say a lot of dolphins are preventing Somali pirates from capturing a Chinese ship:
"
BEIJING, April 14 (Xinhuanet) -- Thousands of dolphins blocked the suspected Somali pirate ships when they were trying to attack Chinese merchant ships passing the Gulf of Aden, the China Radio International reported on Monday.

The Chinese merchant ships escorted by a China's fleet sailed on the Gulf of Aden when they met some suspected pirate ships. Thousands of dolphins suddenly leaped out of water between pirates and merchants when the pirate ships headed for the China's. "
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-04/14/content_11184581.htm>A Chinese Miracolo


PeterUK

"I believe DeLay, unprompted, would say that the teaching evolution in schools is a symptom of the moral decay that allowed Columbine to happen."

Some people believe the moon is made out of green cheese.

boris

why would the guy use the word "evolutionize"

Dunno why you think that's significant.

  • "Nothing but glorified apes" is not "teaching evolution"
  • Possible contributing factor is not "led to"

Unlike Assclownistan, around here a lie plus a lie does not make a truth. Delay neither said nor quoted "teaching evolution" and what he did quote does not belong in "teaching evolution" even if that is where it supposedly happens.

For that reason claiming equivalence between "children are nothing but apes" and "teaching evolution" is not fair.

It makes absolutly no difference if the claim had been "children are biologically nothing but glorified apes" and the claim is made that's "teaching biology".

It's not. It's not "teaching evolution" and it's not "teaching biology". If it actually does happen, it's crap.

sbw

Appalled: part of the game.

I knew you thought it was a game. That shows you have no clue what is at risk and why.

Chalk up another failure of education.

Oh, well. Stick around. We'll try to remediate.

Sue
I believe DeLay, unprompted, would say that the teaching evolution in schools is a symptom of the moral decay that allowed Columbine to happen.

You also believe Krugman "essentially" quoted Tom Delay.

Sue

It's the old "fake but accurate" argument. Once it is invoked, you can't win the argument.

Jane

SO, N Korea is expelling the nuke watchers. (What kind of job is nuke watching anyway?)

Another pirate capture - that's at least 4 today.

The President thinks things are going well.

All I can say is YIKES!

boris

I believe DeLay, unprompted, would say

Then the fair thing to do would be to wait until he does. To falsely claim he famously said something he didn't say ... that's unfair.

"the teaching of evolution in schools contributed to Columbine" ... I find [that] idea utterly daft

What you really need to say:

"children taught in school that they are nothing but glorified apes contributed to Columbine" ... I find that idea utterly daft

But no. You can't bring yourself to be honest about what Delay actually said. You can't even deny that's what children are taught because that would reduce your judgement of the statemant to a distortion rather than "daft". But you can't accuse Delay's source of distortion because that's what you and Krugworm are doing.

It's dishonest.

clarice

Trying to get appalled to admit she's full of it is about as productive as continually parsing Krugman's storytelling . Krugman does it because he knows his job is to support the fantasy world of the remaining NYT' readers. Appalled's motives to peddle that crap here are less clear.Perhaps it's some kind of s/m thrill.

Stephanie

Want a thrill.... see the LUN...

WOW!!

clarice

Isn't Boyle something though?

Stephanie

I can't stop rewatching the clip. I can't wait to see what she does next. Perfect pitch, intonation and the way she controls the song and her breathing... exquisite.

Appalled

clarice:

What would really be interesting is trying to get Appalled to admit that he's a she.

As for why I do what i do? Because it amuses me -- I don't think I am going to change the course of the world, or even an opinion with one of these comments.

sbw:

I don't think, somehow, this is one of TM's more serious posts. The planet will not end because Krugman exaggerated.

Patrick Sullivan:

When you read a piece like Krugman's on the state of the Republicans, all you can do is put him in the pile of "just another Olbermann". There is no economic analysis there, nor is he interested in adding any to the mix. Is that a tragedy or a stupid thing? Maybe. But it's not one of my making.

boris:

The horse you've got has been dead for a while, and is strting to smell. Could you cart it away? Your interpretation of the language in that letter is so strained that it is positive postmodern. By the way, has anyone been able to find DeLay denying the gloss the Dems put on his words on Columbine?

Charlie (Colorado)

Evolution was one of the foundations of twentieth century leftist totalitarianism.

Yeah, right, that's why they embraced Lysenko.

Jane

Geez, Dot did the same thing to us a couple of years ago and I have never gotten over it Stephanie.

How fabulous!

bad

I love the music from Les Miserables and Boyle is amazing.

She is an excellent example of why we don't want to "judge a book by its cover."

clarice

I don't know why I think you're a woman, appalled. I guess I'll have to effect a mental transgendering.

bad

I don't think, somehow, this is one of TM's more serious posts. The planet will not end because Krugman exaggerated.

Ah, a distraction...

boris

Your interpretation of the language in that letter is so strained that it is positive postmodern.

Say what? Why lie? Is it not a verbatim quote? You and Krugworm are interpreting the actual words "nothing but glorified apes" as "teaching evolution".

Here is an excerpt from YOUR post yesterday at 5:28PM

``It couldn't have been because our school systems teach the children that they are nothing but glorified apes who have evolutionized out of some primordial soup of mud.
All I ask is that you be honest about what he said.

DebinNC

Susan Boyle said she wanted to be another Elaine Paige. Here's">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-9vftfgadE">Here's Paige, a lovely blonde, looking very much like Susan with a song Susan could hit out of the park. LUN

I think Susan purposefully appeared dowdy in order to smash expectations and aid the "wow" response she deservedly got. I bet she'll similarly smash expectations by shedding the matron image and glam up soon and astound the audience by appearing as the lovely woman she can be and perhaps, in her real life, really is.

Appalled

boris:

In that paragraph are the words "teach" and "evolutionized". It's clear he's not complaining that students are having their self-esteem damaged.

PeterUK

"Yeah, right, that's why they embraced Lysenko."

Crops,my dear Charlie.People were still liquidated to help create new Soviet Man. Just giving evolution a helping hand,get rid of the natural competition.

Sue

Debbie,

Your link wouldn't open for me.

clarice

boris:"You and Krugworm are interpreting the actual words "nothing but glorified apes" as "teaching evolution"

Do you suppose it's because that's how appalled and Krugworm understand the message of evolution --i.e., that we are "nothing but glorified apes" whereas DeLay thinks that 's the wrong message to take from the theory.

centralcal

The link didn't open for me either, Debbie.

DebinNC

Ugh. Sue, the LUN works for me though.

cathyf

My husband maintains that if you go to any church choir or community chorus is in America, you will find at least one (and usually more) person who sings as well as a professional. I must say that I have had the privilege of singing alongside more than one!

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