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July 25, 2009

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» You Knew The R Word Had To Appear For The Birther Debate At Some Point from Pirates Cove
Primarily, because once the left runs out of rational arguments, usually about 5 minutes after the debate starts, they cry racism! And that time is now (via Just One Minute) Mr. Phil Griffin [president of MSNBC] said the claims were legitimate to cover... [Read More]

Comments

Blu Moanin

Given there is zero empirical evidence that President Obama was born outside of Hawaii; it's perfectly rational to consider the motivation of people spreading the birfer conspiracy. Racism is a well-established feature set of the demographics perpetuating the birfer meme and here we have that very group going after our first black President as a suspected illegal alien, i.e., another "other", not "one of us".

I can think of no better speculation that racism is at the very heart of birfer-dom and in fact can't find superior explanations though I remain open to new evidence. Racism appears to have not been the instigating factor from those that started this meme, in fact it first appeared as a method merely to win over votes for Hillary Clinton, but it's reasonable to think racism now fuels those looking to promote this meme, especially subsequent to the release of the appropriate documents and their validation by state officials.

Magnificent Bastard.

'Ageist'?

No, it's more like Republican 'Zeitgeist'.

Thomas Collins

Well, as JOMers may know, Birthing is not a big issue with the. After my three kids were born, I lost track of the topic. However, this foray by ObamaMediaGroup into the issue is notable for the playing of the race deck. I suspect that in different contexts, ObamaMediaGroup is going to be playing the race deck more and more to try to intimidate those who have a less than positive view of Hawaiian O's performance (no matter where he was born, I like referring to him as Hawaiian O) from speaking up. However, in my opinion, the playing of the race deck by the ObamaMediaGroup Jokers won't succeed.

I Callahan

I can think of no better speculation that racism is at the very heart of birfer-dom and in fact can't find superior explanations though I remain open to new evidence.

Explain how racism is at the heart of this. If Obama were white, and the rest of the circumstances the same, we'd still be having the same discussion. Stating something is racist doesn't make it so.

I don't necessarily know what to think. There may not be ample evidence, but there is circumstantial evidence (growing up in Indonesia, etc.). That being said, why not release the long form birth certificate? Why the secrecy?

Blaming something on racism is just a chicken-s&*! argument. Try again.

Jack Mormon

"If Obama were white,"

Add African American to 'Democrat' and you have the formula. Republicans only want blacks who want to be white, (need I list the 'approved' republican blacks) and tow the Corporate Mentality.

If Obama were white, they would be uncovering conspiracy therories touting his lack of racial 'purity'.

Danube of Thought

What is the evidence that (a) the long form still exists, and (b) that Obama has it in his possession?

Danube of Thought

"...can't find superior explanations though I remain open to new evidence."

Sure you do, you generously open-minded fellow.

Now let us consider what might be adduced as "evidence" that people questioning his citizenship are not motivated by racism. And while we're at it, why don't we come up with evidence that they are?

Ah, what the hell--let's just speculate, OK? And let's be sure that as we do so we establish our own moral superiority.

Mark O

To be sure, I would be pleased if BHO were forced to resign tomorrow, perhaps on the grounds of stupidity. But, it is not quite accurate to say BHO has failed to produced sufficient evidence that he is a "presidential citizen." I think that a court could take judicial notice from the official state record (faked or not, faked but accurate or not, shorter than the original or not, or just accurate), that BHO was born in Hawaii. At the very least the document is self authenticating and the copy would be admissible. In at least that sense the evidence is ample.

In the absence of contrary evidence, (a depostion from Africa, the admission of a co-conspirator) BHO would win a summary judgment.

We may not be happy with his evidence, but we cannot say he has none. Those who disbelieve his birth need to find alternate, impeaching evidence.

Posse Comitatus

from NRO;

MSM Overdrive on Birthers [Greg Pollowitz]

By watching the MSM over the past few days, you'd think every Republican in America thinks President Obama was born in Kenya. It's typical that the MSM is taking such an interest in this conspiracy theory while it did very little to dispel the Truther conspiracy theory that Bush knew of 9/11 beforehand. A Rasmussen poll found 35 percent of Democrats actually believe in that nonsense. Why wasn't that as big a story?

Jane

The one thing that flummoxes me is why the presidebt has spent over a million bucks to not deal with this issue.

If the long form doesn't exist, say so. If not, provide it. Sheesh

Danube of Thought

Some racist speculation from Nile Gardiner in the UK Telegraph:

"If he is not careful, Barack Obama may end up as one of the least popular presidents in American history. His dream of re-making the world’s greatest power into a large-scale version of modern-day Germany - with high taxation, dominant trade unions, overbearing government bureaucracy, stifling employment regulations, low defence spending, de-nuclearisation, a naive emphasis on soft power, and a constant desire to apologise for the past – is a nightmarish vision that fortunately is opposed by a growing majority of Americans. The spirit of individual liberty and free enterprise remains the most powerful force in the United States today, and any government that goes against it is bound to fail in imposing its agenda."

Thomas Collins

Jack Mormon, I respectfully suggest that it is just the opposite of what you assert. Dems insist that blacks toe the corporate mentality of statism and multiculturalism. Thomas Sowell's cross cultural studies, which eviscerate Dem nostrums on such topics as affirmative action, are ignored or downgraded in Demland.

By the way, Jack Mormon, thinkers such as Sowell, far from "thinking white," are constantly exposing modern statism, which when you look at its history is really an effete elite white man's mode of thought, for the nonsense that it is

Uncircumcised Republican

"If he is not careful, Barack Obama may end up as one of the least popular presidents in American history"

Well, he is fortunate enough to have the bar set so low by GWB, so that exceeding the boy wonder's record of public approval seems a walk in the park.

anne

It is people who say that who are racist. they CANNOT let go of Obama's skin color.

matt

Can we please move on on this issue? It is a trope until a smoking gun is produced, and that doesn't look like it's going to happen. In the interim, the press is playing this as an obsession of the right.

Congressman John Campbell has sponsored a bill to clarify the mechanism of determination of a natural born citizen, but was flayed on Matthews. It is probably a good idea.

Until there is some clarity on the mechanisms of such, it will be the equivalent of the old Church arguments of how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

--Racism appears to have not been the instigating factor from those that started this meme, in fact it first appeared as a method merely to win over votes for Hillary Clinton--

Good point Blu.
Heaven knows the Clinton's in particular and Democrats in general are entirely incompatible with racism.
Just ask that benevolent old lion, Robert "Kleagle" Byrd.

Danube of Thought

"If the long form doesn't exist, say so. If not, provide it."

Jane, suppose he doesn't have it, and has no knowledge of whether it exists? (I haven't the slightest clue as to what kinds of records of my own birth exist. And I can't offer testimony to the event on personal knowledge.)

Peter Larrabee

Maybe I can settle this.
You'll find all the evidence you need, straight ahead, up there, on the grassy knoll.

Uncircumcised Republican

"In the interim, the press is playing this as an obsession of the right.'

Well, even a blind pig finds the occasional truffle. Your extremeist 'tail' wags you mutts all day long. Maybe you should email Maguire that he's playing into the MSM's hands.

Mark O


Wholly apart from the legalistic evidence of Obama’s American birth, is the question of his American conversion. So much of what he has said and done is essentially un-American in the traditional sense that it feeds into the idea that he was not a born American. Most Americans would have had singular pause in nationalizing General Motors or in making obeisance to the modern Pharaoh. He seems not to understand even the more minute social conventions and is plainly unaware of his own racism. It is as if someone from Africa had been educated here but continued to show blind spots in shockingly odd areas.

He may well be a “presidential citizen,” but he acts and governs like someone who was not steeped in Americanism, but was really an outsider, finding nothing good about the system and hoping to effect radical change.

Felonious Liddy

" but was really an outsider,"

Where have you been?

He was born in Kenya

Jane

Jane, suppose he doesn't have it, and has no knowledge of whether it exists?

Then he should say so, outloud and in response to one of these law suits. What is making people crazy is his contention that he has no obligation to address the issue.

I think if you go to the Town Hall where you were born they keep records there. At some point in my life I needed a BC and that is how I got it.

Rick Ballard

"The one thing that flummoxes me is why the presidebt has spent over a million bucks to not deal with this issue."

Jane,

Read up a bit on NPD, especially the artificial construct aspect. Barack Hussein Obama is a golem constructed by Barry Dunham. A real NPD perpetrator fears exposure of the construct more than anything else in the world. There isn't any price which Barry Dunham will refuse to pay in order to maintain his crumbling facade.

Barry Dunham knows that the truth on this issue will lead inexorably to additional revelations concerning the fantasy that is Barack Hussein Obama. What he apparently does not as yet realize is that he reveals himself as a fraud every time he utters more than two run on sentences.

Danube of Thought

Well that's what Obama's people did--they went to the town hall in Honolulu, copied the certificate on file, and published it. I think at that point the burden was placed on the birthers to demonstrate that there is some more comprehensive record available--and also to come forward with some evidence of foreign birth.

Since the issue seems to be one that is generally scoffed at by a large majority, I think he benefits by letting this thing continue in its current posture.

Barry Dauphin

I can think of no better speculation that racism is at the very heart of birfer-dom

So what explains the Dems interest in McCain's birth history. It takes a birther to know one, eh.

Pofarmer

"If the long form doesn't exist, say so. If not, provide it."

Jane, suppose he doesn't have it, and has no knowledge of whether it exists? (I haven't the slightest clue as to what kinds of records of my own birth exist. And I can't offer testimony to the event on personal knowledge.)

When I needed a birth certificate recently, and couldn't find the original, I went to the hospital of my birth, and got a certified copy. Cost me 15 bucks, and took about 15 minutes. It shouldn't be that hard for Obama to do the same. If you don't know the hospital of your birth, you could go to your county seat and find out, or the county health department, generally. It ain't that big a hurdle.

bad

Was it racist when John McCain's standing to be president was disputed?

Jiggs Kincaid

"So now Birthers are Racist?"
Was there ever any doubt?
They also are nitwits.
Look at the record for heaven's sake, at the attitudes and homilies from the same old Birch Society-influenced crowd.
Once they get this issue memorialized maybe they can return to their favorite obsession, now in its 57th year, proving that Eisenhower was a communist.
Fitzgerald was right.
Show me a Republican, and I'll write you a tragedy.

bad

My apologies, Barry. I hadn't refreshed before I posted.

Great point, BTW.

DAVOD

"Add African American to 'Democrat' and you have the formula. Republicans only want blacks who want to be white, (need I list the 'approved' republican blacks) and tow the Corporate Mentality."

The way this reads you would have been cheering on those castigating the hard studying minority schoolkids for trying to be white.

Mark O

So adroit is Obama in using race as an advantage that even Bill Clinton sputtered and spit. It is now easier to navigate his rise to the top of the Harvard Law Review.

Ah, to put him under oath and take his deposition.

Uncircumcised Republican

"Was it racist when John McCain's standing to be president was disputed?"

No, but it was racist when George Bush campaign 'leaked' the rumor that he was the father of a 'black child'.

Racist to the core.

Xrlq
It is less distantly possible that the grandparents and the mother were straining to document Obama as a US citizen in fear of the day when the white Ms. Stanley would be engaged in a custody suit in a Kenyan court arguing with the black father about the fate of a black Kenyan baby. But I guess Fact Check couldn't conceive of that.

Suppose that's the case. So what? Obama is still a natural born citizen per 8 U.S.C. 1401(g), which defines "nationals and citizens of the United States at birth" (the closest phrase to "natural born citizens" appearing anywhere in the US Code) to include "a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years," provided they were born on or after December 24, 1952. That doesn't necessarily defeat your theory, though, as this was not the law in 1961.

bad

Of Course, when one is desperate one cries, "Bush, Cheney, Halliburton..."

Uncircumcised Republican

"Obama is still a natural born citizen per 8 U.S.C. 1401(g)"

That's entirely beside the point.

Misdirection is the point.

bad

I still think the birth announcement was posted to broadcast the fact that the previously unmarried but pregnant daughter was now married.

Mark O

McCain the father of a black child? Reason enough to vote for him. What a life story that is: POW, Miscegenist, both pre- and post-racial, deaf, had to endure a rich wife.

To quote a friend: Jesus H. Christ.

mockmook

Since when is a "picture" of the short form evidence -- shouldn't a real ("non-partisan") person have to inspect it, and verify that the stamp, etc. all appear legit?

DOT, I thought the long form is kept in a vault/storage, only the state keeps it, but you can get a copy, is that right, anyone?

Pagar

Our family is currently going thru the process of getting a replacement passport for a not yet adult niece who is overseas visiting her grandparents. Based on the so far five trips to the US Embassy, countless documents, many of which are required in the original, including statements from her father who is in Iraq and divorced from the mother etc.

If anyone is planning overseas trips, they need to look real hard at what is required to obtain a replacement passport and make arrangements to be able to obtain those documents if necessary, before they begin their trip.

Based on the experience with our niece,I do not believe Obama would be issued a replacement passport, based on what documentation he has provided. that we know about. Again,the question seems to be why can't he provide the evidence? Why are we being asked to accept things as evidence, that the US Embassy says they won't accept.

Buford Gooch

On any rightosphere blog where the birth certificate controversy is brought up in these last few weeks, the trolls come out in force. It's almost as if someone *cough* Axelrod *cough* were orchestrating the attacks.

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

--A real NPD perpetrator fears exposure of the construct more than anything else in the world.--

Bingo Rick.
At the center of NPD is a total lack of security and self. They build what is commonly referred to as a facade; a false self, often a cold, superior and aloof one but at least as often a genial, good-old-boy, sly dog one, that they project to the world to protect that inner insecurity.
To others, if things we would not like revealed in our past or certain weaknesses which reveal a chink in our armor, become known they are an embarrassment. To someone with NPD they feel like an existential threat, so any lie, is justified as self preservation.
NPD has quite a wide spectrum, with many docs putting psycho or sociopathy on the one end and functional but effected individuals on the other. And there are many people who may not have the disorder but who clearly suffer from unhealthy levels of insecurity and the accompanying narcissism. My guess is Barry probably straddles this boundary of unhealthy narcissism and the actual personality disorder, but one never knows how well they project a facade until one actually lives with them or they have some type of a break.

Boatbuilder

Curious, curious indeed. Why is it that Cleo and the astroturfers, in lockstep with the MSM, are all of a sudden jumping all over the birth certificate issue, as if it were something new, and as if all (non-conformist) Republicans are obsessed "birthers" motivated by racism.

My position from the beginning is that I think it is a bad idea, now that Obama has won the election, for Republicans to raise the issue, and would be bad for the country in general to fight the argument involved--leave it alone. I think that what passes for Republican leadership these days agrees.

I can't help thinking that this is a desperate effort to shift the focus from Obama's big, big mistake on the Gates/Cambridge Cops incident. He has stepped into it big time, showing everyone left, right and center why he gets along so well with good ol' Reverend Wright, who his "good friends" really are, and what passes for scholarly thought among the Harvard elite. If they can make the moderate center recoil, as they naturally do, from the inference that America is "racist," they will have succeeded. The "birther" canard is perfect for that purpose.

And I agree fully that Obama could end the speculation easily--produce a letter to the Hawaii authorities requesting a certified copy of the birth certificate and the response. If it is anything but "We have no record of your being born here" the issue is dead. Obama obviously doesn't want it to be dead. Wonder why?

Boatbuilder

Hey, Buford--Great minds . . .

barking spittle-flecked birfer

If Obama were white, and the rest of the circumstances the same, we'd still be having the same discussion.

Does anyone have a copy of John McCain's long-form birth certificate proving that he was actually born in Panama? His mama could have given birth to John in her lover's sugar shack in Costa Rica for all we know.

lonetown

Perhaps the fact that no one is producing the long form, which seems to be a rather conventional practice, even in Hawaii, is because it does not exist, presumed racism notwithstanding.

Does Kenya do long forms?

Boatbuilder

And with respect to all the newcomers we see Today, apparently simple minds think alike as well.

Danube of Thought

"I went to the hospital of my birth, and got a certified copy."

So did Obama, and he posted it on the internet. I still don't know the answer to the question of whether any "long form" is, or would be, still in existence. Until someone demonstrates otherwise, I have no reason to believe it is.

Danube of Thought

Looks to me like 1401 (g) would settle the issue if in fact his mother lived in the U.S. for two years after turning fourteen (I have no idea, and not enough interest to check).

Just as the federal judge in the McCain matter figured the statute concern his birth would be applied retroactively even though not passed until after he was born, I believe it would be applied the same way in Obama's case. But right now there is no case, so what the hell...

barking spittle-flecked birfer

I think if you go to the Town Hall where you were born they keep records there. At some point in my life I needed a BC and that is how I got it.

How fortunate for you that your town tracks veterinary records.

Danube of Thought

*statute concerning*

Rick Ballard

Ignatz,

It's rather rare for the NPD facade to be committed to paper, as Ayers/Dunham did with Dreams From My Suspected Sperm Donor. It makes me wonder even more about the sleeper aspect. How better to assure the control of the golem than through being instrumental in the construction of the facade? Our Kunta Kinte has made some absolutely boneheaded and otherwise inexplicable blunders as he stumbles down the road. The current rush to pass Crap & Charade as well as Kill Granny may simply be his handlers' attempt to gain as much territory as possible prior to their disposal of a fast wasting asset.

I wonder if Dunham understands the end planned for him by his masters? He better stay useful as long as he can.

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

--So did Obama, and he posted it on the internet. I still don't know the answer to the question of whether any "long form" is, or would be, still in existence. Until someone demonstrates otherwise, I have no reason to believe it is.--

You keep saying this and I'm wondering why.
Do you believe that the COLB was produced instead, because the long form is no longer available?
I know they are occasionally lost but my wife, daughter and myself all recently obtained ours in a matter of minutes even though all three of us were born in different towns.
Given the importance of long form BC's it would seem their total disappearance is not a common thing.

Mark O

I see the trial now:

THE COURT: Please state your name.

SOME MISGUIDED SOULS: Objection. Hearsay.

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

--I wonder if Dunham understands the end planned for him by his masters?--

Rick
If he really does have NPD he would never acknowledge anyone as his master. NPDers always believe themselves to be the smartest person in the room and are the absolute zenith of control freaks.
That's why they're hopeless in therapy; they spend every session manipulating and proving to the therapist they're smarter than he is.

caro

I wonder if the Presidebt would be willing to have Prof. Gates take his DNA for research and study.

Pofarmer

Frickin typepad.

I'll post this again in the wrong thread

Apparently Gates didn't get the "ratchet down the tension" memo.

"Gates: I would love for him to look me in the eye and say ‘Professor Gates, I am sorry. I am sorry for the way I treated you. I am sorry for the fabrications I..I had to put in that report. And if he’s sincere, I would forgive him as a human being.

Gates: Ah, well I think that he is probably trying to protect himself. I think he feels very vulnerable. Uh, I think he knows that (a) what he did was wrong and (b) that, um, he falsified his report."

Pofarmer

Oh, that is from a transcript of Larry King live via Protein Wisdom.

caro

Pof, not Larry King, but Gayle King. She's Oprah's BFF.

PeterUK

This is slopping over into Britain.

The longer it goes on the longer it will be to contain.

weffiewonj

So Obama's parents are married in Feb. 1961, and give birth to a child in August. Barack's grandparents file a false affidavit and/or plant a false statement in the a local newspaper immediately upon Barack's birth in Kenya because... well, maybe our grandchild will be subject to a custody dispute, and maybe we won't get caught filing false papers, and maybe it will actually matter under Kenyan law that there is this bogus affidavit filed in a far away land. (If Kenya had jurisdiction to determine custody, it probably would not have had to rely on the child's place of birth, but, rather, the child's place of residence. Of course, the theoretical perjurers would not have had to have a CORRECT understanding of Kenyan family law. They are liars after all; no one said they were smart liars!)
Under this reasoning, everybody's birth location is dubious. My maternal grandfather and my father never really got along that well, so the birth certificate that I just used to get my driver's license? - who really knows where I was born?) Total crazy talk.

bad

weffie, the more logical explaination for the birth announcement in the paper stating the baby was born in Hawaii, regardless of where he was born, was to let everyone know the previously pregnant, unmarried daughter was now married.

And if the child was born in Kenya, people didn't need to know that because it was the kind of sordid detail one didn't spread around if one were a typical racist white person whose new grandchild was half black.

Simpleton

It is more accurate to state that all birthers are either racists or xenophobes.

The facts, backed by more than irrefutable evidence are that Obama was born in Hawaii, and that makes him a natural-born US citizen. The birth certificate issued by Hawaii, endorsed as authentic by the state's Republican governor, and accepted as valid in the USA has been presented, and proves that the birthers are wrong.

If you do not agree, then you are either ignorant, but more likely a racist, a xenophobe or both.

PeterUK

There are other reasons why this is a sensitive issue.Stanley Ann Dunham may have,wittingly or unwittingly entered into a bigamous marriage with Barrack Hussein Obama senior. She would have also only been 19 in 1961. It is also possible she was not married.
Further as a Muslim,BH Obama senior could have taken the child.

PeterUK

"It is more accurate to state that all birthers are either racists or xenophobes."

Many dispute the circumstances of the birth of Jesus,and they are the same race.

royf

Looks like simpleton chose a appropriate name. Personally I don't care where he was born he's still a low life Chicago thug.

But simpleton it is best to remain silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

sylvia

I think someone first needs to figure out the law first that existed in 1961 about whether someone was a citizen if one parent was a citizen and the other one not.

From everything I've seen, as long as the citizen parent spends just a few years living in the US, the child IS a citizen. And we know Dunham went to highschool and college here. So speculating where Obama was born is good for naught. Even if he was born on the moon, he would still be a US citizen. As long as his mother was a citizen. (She wasn't Canadian or anything was she?)

So I don't think it has any relevancy to Obama's presidency. However, it is a fun mystery to try and solve and I see no harm in examining the issue. My vote is that when he was adopted by Sotero, his parents revoked his US citizenship, which would seal the long form.

royf

As the regulars here know nothing brings out teh stupid turfers like a good birth certificate thread. LOL! I find it very amusing how they suddenly show up showing such very deep concern for the rethuglicans 11ELEVENTY11 !!!

William Teach

For all those saying this is a rediculous issue, can any of you provide a rationale for Obama refusing to release the long form, which would cost him $10, and, instead, spending way more fighting off lawsuits?

Granted, some of those suits are completely wacko. But, wouldn't it be less expensive to go "here. My actual BC?"

PeterUK

William Teach.
Exactly.

bad

O/T but ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha from Politoco:

But on Saturday, the Congressional Budget Office said the proposal to give an independent panel the power to keep Medicare spending in check would only save about $2 billion over 10 years- a drop in the bucket compared to the bill's $1 trillion price tag.

The little meeting accomplished ZERO.

Cecil Turner

Under this reasoning, everybody's birth location is dubious.

Probably why they have those handly little things called "birth certificates" eh? I don't have much time for this dispute, but Obama's reluctance to provide one is more than a bit weird.

sylvia

Oh and also, as I discussed with Sue yesterday, she said that anyone who is a citizen who did not have to go through a "naturalizing" process to be a citizen, is a natural born citizen. And that makes sense to me. So Obama would be a natural born citizen because he was never naturalized.

One thing I was wondering about though is, if Obama's parents revoked his US citizenship while he was living in Inodnesia because they were anti-American or something, and then when Obama got back to the US, his grandparents restored his US citizenship which they could do by claiming he was a child who was coerced etc. When Obama's citizenship was restored - could that be called a naturalization process?

In that case, there might be a claim made that Obama was not a natural born citizen, because his citizenship was revoked, even temporarily, and then he had to be naturalized to get it restored. That might be a tricky Constitutional question, and to avoid all that Obama does not release the long form which shows him to be Sotero's son and a Kenyan/Brit.

bad

The truther vs birther dispute is not at all comparable issues. Presidebt could end the birther issue in a heartbeat by producing a long form BC.

Bush could do nothing to end the truther pursuit.

Danube of Thought

"You keep saying this and I'm wondering why.
Do you believe that the COLB was produced instead, because the long form is no longer available?"

Ignatz, I keep saying it because no one has answered it. I have no knowledge, and hence no belief, as to whether the long form is now available. And I'll continue to have no such knowledge until a knowledgeable person comes forward. That hasn't happened yet.

Were you and your family members born in Hawaii? If not, why do your experiences shed any light on what is the status of records in that state?

And if you were Obama, what constituency would you be seeking to mollify by responding further to this stuff? Wouldn't you be extremely happy to leave matters exactly where they are?

daddy

Why don't we ask our first Black President, Bill Clinton, whether he believes this is racist or not.

Danube of Thought

"...wouldn't it be less expensive to go 'here. My actual BC?'"

What causes you to believe that there is any more definitive record of his birth than the one he has already produced?

Do you have any evidence that he was born anywhere other than in Hawaii?

Do you believe that, even if he weren't born in Hawaii, under 8 U.S. Code Section 1401(g) he would be any less eligible for the presidency than John McCain? If so, why?

Do you think that Obama himself believes that he was born anywhere other than in Hawaii? If so, why?

Danube of Thought

"Presidebt could end the birther issue in a heartbeat by producing a long form BC."

Why do you think a long form BC exists? Why do you think he would like to end the issue, as opposed to keeping it alive?

Show me the 180, er the Birth Certificate.

Isn't the long form, the so-called 'vault' copy, what the Hawai'ian officials testified the existence of? Note that they very carefully did not say where the place of birth is, but there is a non-conspiracy explanation for their coyness, it's required by law. They cannot divulge that without his permission.

Which brings us back to his claim that he was born in Kapiaulani Hospital. Yeah? Says who else, Obama? It's a fair question; one that Obama might ask under similar such circumstances.

PeterUK

Isn't this just part of the puzzle? There is no access to his academic records either.

He's the Flim Flam Man, that's just a what he am.

Bad @ 4:40 PM, that is an important point. Any further resistance by Obama is insubordination to the will of the people and the birther movement will become less marginalized as his behaviour persists, just as the truther conspiracy theory gradually marginalizes itself. The different dynamics you point out are critical to the differential results.

William Teach

What if he was born in Africa, Danube? He would be considered an American citizen, because Mommy was one, but, not natural born.

If there hadn't been a law about it prior to McCain's birth, he would have been in the same boat. He was born in a zone in Panama which US law considered to be an area for "natural born."

If someone is born in any US Territory, they would be considered a natural born citizen. So, someone born in Puerto Rico or Gaum, Samoa or St. Thomas, they would all be considered natural born and eligible to be president. It's where you are born more than to whom you are born.

Pofarmer

What causes you to believe that there is any more definitive record of his birth than the one he has already produced?

The only thing that's been produced is a COLB that was released to a website. Who else has seen it? What was the chain of custody before it was seen? Was the document actually released by officials in Hawaii? Hawaiian officials said that a long form existed, so, I assume one exists. Nobody said what was on it.

Pofarmer

Do you believe that, even if he weren't born in Hawaii, under 8 U.S. Code Section 1401(g) he would be any less eligible for the presidency than John McCain? If so, why?

Isn't that kind of hard to say without knowing what is on it?

Why wasn't the FACT that he had dual citizenship at birth, ever debated? McCain had two American parents and was born on an American military base, or in an American Territory. One of Obama's parents was NOT American, and, in fact, conferred British citizenship to Obama upon his birth. I do beleive this should have been looked into, and was much more pertinent than the issues with McCain.

Old Lurker

"The little meeting accomplished ZERO."

Bad, meetings like that can actually produce less than zero...as in this case. In the corporate world it can be a really bad thing to attempt to steer an auditor, for example. It just makes them even more curious to catch what you'd like to hide. By all accounts this CBO guy would not ever want to appear manipulated by the Executive so not knowing any better, Obama actually made it impossible for them to change their numbers. It's just basic management stuff. Oh wait...he's never managed anything, has he?

Pofarmer

Oh wait...he's never managed anything, has he?

Folks do like to point out he managed his campaign, but, that was probably more Axlerod, so, back to your question.

bad

Absolutely, Old Lurker. I should have said the little meeting accomplished ZERO for ZERO.

Bill in AZ

Producing the long form has been delayed. Their having a hard time finding a 70's era, err... wait, 60's era typewriter so they don't screw this up like they did the TANG memos. Not only that, Scary Larry isn't inclined to help this time because he's still pouting about Hillary.

Old Lurker

Bill, I had a buddy who used to keep a drawer of old Selectric typewriter balls just in case he needed an old document...

Bill in AZ

OL, now that you let that cat out of the bag, we should have a long form soon to settle this whole thing.

PeterUK

I don't know what the system is in America,but here Date ,place and parents are on the birth certificate. I still have mine,since some things are unobtainable without them.As someone mentioned above,try getting a passport without one.

JM Hanes

DOT:

The relevant state official in Hawaii, whose name I can't remember offhand, confirmed that a long form exists, but asserted that she, herself, could only confirm that the specifics included on the COLB conform to the same particulars on the Birth Certificate, nothing more. She stated that a copy of the actual Birth Certificate can only be issued pursuant to a request from Obama himself, or his immediate family.

The fact that Obama has been unwilling to make such a simple request, and has spent astronomical sums in an apparent effort to avoid a potential court order that he produce it, has played a major part in exacerbating suspicion that there is, in fact, something in the long form that Obama does not want the world to see. TeamObama's concerted effort to conflate the legal import of the COLB and the Birth Certificate -- when the State of Hawaii itself requires additional documentation should a COLB be presented to establish native Hawaiian status -- doesn't help. Neither do repeated assertions that the State of Hawaii has officially established Obama's bona fides.

I personally think the citizenship issue is a red herring, but Obama's failure to put this entire matter to bed immediately, in the most obvious way, and his continuing refusal to do so, is more than merely puzzling. My own primary concern centers on who has standing to raise a challenge to a presidential nominee's credentials. In that respect alone, however, it is certainly in the political, and quite possibly legal, interests of a questionable candidate to forestall any serious investigation till after he has taken the oath of office.

In this case, I wouldn't hazard a guess as to whether something on Obama's Birth Certificate might have legal implications, but under the circumstances, I feel pretty confident that someone in the Obama camp believes that it includes something of political consequence. The speed with which unfamiliar Obama apologists show up whenever and wherever the question arises suggests a disproportionate sensitivity to an issue which has been widely and summarily dismissed, on both sides of the political divide, from the start.

Frau Skeptisch

BHO,for personal reasons, is afraid/ashamed or embarrassed by his long form BC. That goes for all his other unreleased and hidden records and documents. Heck, no public image has been produced of his parents' marriage license; a note on the Hawaiian "divorce" document states that a marriage was performed by a person authorized to do so. Did someone at the grandparent's local Unitarian Church do the honors? I don't *even* care. I'm sorry he was born and found his way to Chicago.

The very *best* suggestion: "I wonder if the Presidebt would be willing to have Prof. Gates take his DNA for research and study."
Would the O-man even accept the offer? We might find out that he has slave blood after all.

narciso

First of all Tom, Phil Griffin has to be one of the stupidest people in the history of broadcasting, who would willing accept the presidency of MSNBC; that's like becoming the captain of the Lusitania. Only Jon Klein, captain of the Bismark, is more doomed. The level of delusion per capita there, is off the charts. Also "absense of evidence is not evidence of evidence" That being said is there a point to this, will Perkins & Coie stop defending these claims
anytime soon, what is really the point of this. I know me complaining about quixotic
efforts is kind of ironic, to say the least

Disillusionist

I'm not terribly inclined to believe President Ogabe didn't fulfill the requirements to be a citizen of the U.S., and even less inclined to pursue it at this point, but I'm certainly puzzled that he's spent so much effort preventing anyone from seeing any definitive record of his birth. My take is that the missing documents provide evidence of some very embarrassing information which he doesn't want anyone to see. Ever. Three candidates spring to mind:

1) The birth certificate lists the father as "unknown"
2) His name is recorded as Barry Soetero or Barry Dunham
3) His religion appears as Muslim

Any one of these would play havoc with the facade he has so carefully constructed. Sort of like those transcripts from Columbia and Harvard.

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

--Ignatz, I keep saying it because no one has answered it. I have no knowledge, and hence no belief, as to whether the long form is now available. And I'll continue to have no such knowledge until a knowledgeable person comes forward. That hasn't happened yet.--

DOT,
Here is the offical news release by the Director of the HI Dept of Health stating unequivocally in Oct 08 that she and the registrar have checked and seen his original birth certificate. Now whether she meant by that the Certification of Live Birth I do not know nor am I aware that such a thing even exists. The certifcation provided by HI is clearly not a copy of an original 1961 document so it is unclear just exactly what she was referring to. According to some sources it seems that the "short form" is merely a summary of info on the long form so it seems fairly likely she was referring to the long form.

This factcheck story doesn't shed much light on things IMO. It does contain some obvious inaccuracies and is inconclusive or less than clear on several issues and to me is therefore somewhat suspect. And while it makes some seemingly dispositive conclusions it doesn't seem too clear to me their info actually supports them.

JM Hanes

bad:

"The little meeting accomplished ZERO."

We can thank our lucky stars that the CBO, and it's formidable leader, seem determined to man what may be the last the independent barricades still standing inside the Beltway.

bad

He seems to be a man of courage and principal regarding his job, JMH.

scott

DoT, It is my understanding that a long form can be requested as it is required for some heritage based hawaiian gov't programs.

The "short" form is actually an abstract of the document(s) on file relating to the birth (I believe there is verbage to this effect on the short form). I assume these would be electronic copies, the hard copies being destroyed.

In general, there could be statements regarding a home birth, adoption etc. included in the file.

larwyn

Isn't this great - expect NATIVE HAWAIIANS will get lots of goodies and be added to HATE CRIME ANOINTED


CNN: State of Hawaii Destroyed President Obama's Long-Form Birth Certificate in 2001!
Obama's citizenship has become a huge news story with MSNBC, Fox, CNN and big time radio hosts covering it on a daily basis over the last week. Many people (including myself) are demanding that President Obama produce his Hawaiian long-form birth certificate. Notwithstanding the foregoing, I assume that this below CNN/Media Bistro story will end the controversy (for now) over President Barack Obama's Hawaiian long-form birth certificate.

Without a long-form birth certificate, the short-form birth certificate produced by Obama "proves" his citizenship for purposes of being President. Unless someone can produce a contradictory document that holds the same weight as Obama's Hawaiian short-form birth certificate, I agree with CNN that Obama's alleged non-citizenship is a dead story.

However, if someone finds a contradictory document, then I will definitely be back blogging about it.

So what happened to President Obama's original long-form birth certificate?

CNN's president Jon Klein asked his political researchers to find out why Obama could not produce the original long-form birth certificate. The State of Hawaii Health Department informed CNN's researchers that the long-form birth certificate no longer existed, because Hawaii went to a paperless system in 2001. Therefore, President Obama's long-form birth certificate was discarded and likely destroyed in the State's trashing process.

---- Original Message -----
From: Klein, Jon (CNN)
Sent: Thu Jul 23 19:00:44 2009
Subject: Important re birth certificate

I asked the political researchers to dig into the question "why couldn't Obama produce the ORIGINAL birth certificate?"

This is what they forwarded. It seems to definitively answer the question. Since the show's mission is for Lou to be the explainer and enlightener, he should be sure to cite this during your segment tonite. And then it seems this story is dead - because anyone who still is not convinced doesn't really have a legitimate beef.

Thx

*****************

*In 2001 - the state of Hawaii Health Department went paperless.*Paper documents were discarded*The official record of Obama's birth is now an official ELECTRONIC record Janice Okubo, spokeswoman for the Health Department told the Honolulu Star Bulletin, "At that time, all information for births from 1908 (on) was put into electronic files for consistent reporting," she said.


---------------------
Transcript from Lou Dobbs Tonight - 07.23.09

DOBBS: ....And a number of Americans are asking, why not? The left-wing media has attacked me because I simply asked the question. Meanwhile, the state of Hawaii says it can't release a paper copy of the president's original birth certificate because they say the state government discarded the original document when the health department records went electronic some eight years ago.


Source: CNN via Media Bistro.
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Posted by The Moderator at 10:55 AM

http://remixxworld.blogspot.com/2009/07/cnn-state-of-hawaii-destroyed-president.html

If the above is true - shows what they have planned for 2010 & 2012 - now have enough control and thugs to intimidate that they don't give a damn what you think!!

Want to throw up - wish I didn't have children or grandchildren. Then would just check in my mandatory END OF LIFE COUNCILOR at the neighborhood ACORN HEALTH CENTER.

larwyn

Are they saying that information normally included in LONG FORM was discarded

hospital
doctor

My daughters records from the hospital had time of birth
blood types

and even their tiny footprints

this is b.s.!!

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