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July 15, 2009

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Tom Maguire

From the "More Questions I Am Afraid To Ask" file - didn't the whole 'Trigg Palin is Bristol's baby" theory come back to earth when Bristol gave birth to Tripp on Dec 27, 2008, roughly eight months after Trig was born on April 18, 2008?

Is there some basis by which Sully is keeping hope alive?

PeterUK

It was the red shoes that did it.

royf

Well I know when I joined the Marine Corp in 1965 I took a oath of Allegiance to the Constitution and swore to defend it against enemies both foreign and domestic. It also said I would obey the orders of the President and officers above me in accordance with the UCMJ.

The Allegiance was to the Constitution not to the men. If this Officer thinks there are domestic enemies in those offices he has sworn to defend against them. I can't see how anyone with a clear understanding of the principles this country were founded on could watch what is happening to our Constitution and not at least understand where Major Cook is coming from. We are most definitely facing a Constitutional crisis.

Pofarmer

Is there some basis by which Sully is keeping hope alive?

Other than being a complete moron?

Geek, Esq.

Actually, TM, Weigel is correct in that the burden is on the Birthers, since they're the ones challenging his certificate of live birth, which is per se legal proof of its contents in any court proceeding.

It's the law.

§338-13 Certified copies. (a) Subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18, the department of health shall, upon request, furnish to any applicant a certified copy of any certificate, or the contents of any certificate, or any part thereof.

(b) Copies of the contents of any certificate on file in the department, certified by the department shall be considered for all purposes the same as the original, subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18.

(c) Copies may be made by photography, dry copy reproduction, typing, computer printout or other process approved by the director of health.
As to why President Obama hasn't gone to extraordinary lengths to produce a document to satisfy those of his political enemies who refuse to accept a state-issued document that is proof of is contents in every single court in the United States , well not everyone has time to indulge the demands of nutjobs and cryptoracists.

So, "why doesn't he release his birth certificate" is a lie posing as a question.

Extraneus

It was the red shoes that did it.

No doubt. And let's not forget the flight suit. That one really burned them deep.

Stephanie

He's no moron... he's never hunted hobos...

he's a flaming...tool.**

**douchebag, f*nozzle, asshat, (insert tool here)

hit and run

TM:
Would the vaunted Clinton apparatus really have failed to crack this during the race?

Do remember the http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2008/03/21/ap-rice-tells-clinton-her-passport-file-was-also-breached-in-07/>Obama, Hillary and McCain passport file breach story from back in the campaign...

Jane

It was not unknown for pregnant teenagers to be sent away to avoid scandal even in 1961.

It was still scandalous a decade later and in the puritanical Northeast, unwed pregnant girls were always sent away as I recall. (Some never to be heard of again). In fact it was bad taste to even speak of them.

Geek, Esq. is a fool or a deliberate disinformationist, too.

Look, Geek, Esq, the authenticity of this 'copy' hasn't even been shown. He's fighting even showing that in court.

And 'nutjobs and cryptoracists' is lousy rhetoric. This is not a crazed request and it hasn't anything to do with race. You negate whatever small point you thought you'd made.

He's a liar?  Get it?  And his supporters lie constantly, too.  You'd think they'd wonder.

This is 'The Facts' point, dear fool. The Hawaiian authorities pronounce that there is a certificate on file. Obama's campaign purports to post a certified copy, which has poor provenance and also isn't what people commonly think it is, a copy of what is on file. Instead, it is a 'Certificate of Live Birth', which even Hawaii does not accept as proof of native birth, and isn't necessarily a copy of what Hawaii has on file. Now do you get it? It's pretty clever, but not once it's explained to you. It's really just more proof of his deceitfulness.

Don't you read JMH's comments? You should. Oh yeah, they were on the last thread.

Pagar
As to why President Obama hasn't gone to extraordinary lengths to produce a document to satisfy those of his political enemies

I guess American citizens know where they stand in the eyes of the Anti birthers.

The contempt for American citizens by the Obama Administration is unbelievable.

Geek, Esq.

Hasn't been shown?

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

Recently FactCheck representatives got a chance to spend some time with the birth certificate, and we can attest to the fact that it is real and three-dimensional and resides at the Obama headquarters in Chicago. We can assure readers that the certificate does bear a raised seal, and that it's stamped on the back by Hawaii state registrar Alvin T. Onaka (who uses a signature stamp rather than signing individual birth certificates). We even brought home a few photographs.

Those who aren't satisfied would never be satisfied by anything he produced--just like the 911 Truthers.

And rightly too, but oh, the irony.

Yes, H&R, and that was Obama's agents who did the hit at the Passport Agency. And Rice apologized, oh, I love it.

Pagar

IMO, Factcheck has never issued any opinion on anything that I would believe.

Well, the judge would in courts that believe in the value of facts and the rule of law.

You see, it's not unlikely that the so-called 'copy' has been tampered with, also. And once it's in court and examined by adversarial experts and pronounced hokey, the judge is gonna start asking questions about the real birth certificate.

One of those so-called factcheck sites just changed the name of the hospital he was born in from Queen's to Kapiolani.

Geek, c'mon, that is so old. Fuzzy photos from a site that did such a cursory examination is some kind of joke compared to examination by real adversarial experts. But keep trotting that old excuse out; it just shows how weak your case is. Let's see the documents, both so-called 'copy', and the real birth certificate long form, and let's let real experts from both sides examine them.

G'wan, find a believable excuse for his stonewalling.

Another pitiful ad hom, GE. The name 'birthers' is more Alinsky, supposedly equating the nuttiness of truthers and birthers. Sorry, very different questions, my poor man. More evidence of your pitiful case.

Don't you recognize the sophistry? If not you're ignorant; if so, you're deceitful.

Pagar

One of those so-called factcheck sites just changed the name of the hospital he was born in from Queen's to Kapiolani.

Of course, there were no attending doctors, nurses or any other witnesses. Just like every other event in his life.

Parking Lot

((Recently FactCheck representatives got a chance to spend some time...))

gee I just did a search for "Dan Rather" at FactCheck, just as sort of a test...

results:

<

Bush Education Ad: Going Positive, Selectively
May 12, 2004

Bush ad claims "dramatic results" in Texas schools, but fails to mention data-manipulation scandal. >>

what, no article about the false documents were supposedly true?

that is sure one heck of an objective source you are citing


sevenjoyce


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Why don't you go back in time, Joyce and hook up Senior with someone else?

Cecil Turner
[. . .] we can attest to the fact that it is real and three-dimensional and resides at the Obama headquarters in Chicago.
Er, no, it resides in the archives in Hawaii. A copy that's been handled by another party is useless as proof, especially if that party has a vested interest.

Those who aren't satisfied would never be satisfied by anything he produced--just like the 911 Truthers.

You're right, anything he produces is suspect. Which is why I'd expect he'd just authorize the State of HI to provide a certified copy. Why he doesn't remains a mystery.

Yore as bad as yo Massa.  Appreciate the fact that I left Yo Mama out of it.

Geek, you're exposed. Going from 'acceptable in any court' to 'authenticated by factcheck.org' is so bad even you must recognize it. Give it up, you fraud.

Bruce

I think it is most likely the person on the BHO BC is categorized as white. Since the current BHO is clearly black, we would wonder when the real BHO was replaced with the current BHO and wonder who he really works for.

Parking Lot

Cecil

((All applications requesting certified copies of birth..))

I have read that page at least a dozen times over the past 2 days to find clarity because it can be and is being argued that the 'certified copy' that people would get from the request is the legally acceptable 'Certification of Live Birth', not a copy of the original bc.

aside: I find it interesting that the COLB says 'live' birth instead of Hawaiin birth.

Are you beginning to catch on to how he got away with this flim flam?

Oh, yes, PL; it is quite clear that his 'copy' is not a direct zerocopy of the original, nor are any of the 'copies' put out by the Hawaiians. A further question is whether his 'copy' accurately reflects the information on the original. We do not know.

Parking Lot

((Oh, yes, PL; it is quite clear that his 'copy' is not a direct zerocopy of the original, nor are any of the 'copies' put out by the Hawaiians. A further question is whether his 'copy' accurately reflects the information on the original. We do not know.))

the question remains...can anyone in Hawaii ever get a copy of their 'long form' original bc? when the Hawaii DOH went digital were the paper records destroyed and all that now exists is a database?

Pofarmer

Those who aren't satisfied would never be satisfied by anything he produced--just like the 911 Truthers.

Show me the document, with a known chain of custody, that's what would be permissible in court. Not something posted on a website that could have originated from anywhere.

And this is what Obama claims to have, an accurate copy.  Is it?  Who knows?

I don't know, PL. I believe the original still resides in the vaults and can be taken to court, if necessary. Many states now put out a certified and sealed 'copy' which really just documents the information on the original.

Parking Lot

((Many states now put out a certified and sealed 'copy' which really just documents the information on the original.
))

as long as goverments make clear provision for access to the original paper documents and not just copies, that's cool. But if governments have such total control over personal records to the point where they can limit access to them and destroy originals, that is scary imv

Tom Maguire

As to why President Obama hasn't gone to extraordinary lengths to produce a document...

We have different understandings of the word "extraordinary", especially given the Constitutional issue at stake.

It's bad when 'true believers' can't even believe.  Don't you feel even a little sorry for yourself?

Yeah, Tom, the hyperbolic rhetoric is just more proof of the weakness of the case. How many Americans have to go to 'extraordinary lengths' to get a job, or get their kids into school. I wonder why he even thought he was persuasive, clearly he's not persuaded himself.

Tom Maguire

As to the notion that the "birth certificate" was examined by Fact Check, do check their own photograph - they examined the publicly presented *Certification* of Live Birth, aka the short form.

The long form would have info such as the actual hospital and the attending physician. Simple, yes?

OK, Tom's got it.

Uh huh, you are catching on. Many many people believe that 'copy' is also adulterated; it has not been authenticated by an adversarial expert.

Pofarmer

I don't even think it's been authenticated by Hawaiian officials.

There was at least a core of science, sadly exaggerated, at the heart of the global warming fraud; this thing, it's bupkes.

Yep, Pof; not that copy. It's been authenticated by the amateurs at Factcheck.org who buttress their analysis with fuzzy photos. And all of the press, and most Americans were fooled. Just amazing.

we know he's had at least one birth certificate created, or saved....

How many Americans have to go to 'extraordinary lengths' to get a job

Perhaps not the best analogy at the moment....

BR

The differential between the maroon dots and Obama's blue lines in your link is amazing!

sylvia

The thing I am wondering about is even if Obama was born elsewhere, he would still be a citizen. Someone posted the citizenship rules a while ago here, and the rules are something like, if a person is born out of the country and has one US citizen parent, that parent has to spend a number of years living in the US (18?) until they are a certain age, (25?).

And since we knew Dunham grew up here and went to college here, she should most likely have easily cleared that, so Obama would still be a citizen even if he was born in Kenya or Vancouver.

And there still seems some debate as to what constitutes a "natural born citizen" and Obama maybe knows he is vulnerable on that count if he was born elsewhere, and so to prevent any complications on that, he just keeps it hidden. He seems like a control freak type and seems like he would prefer to avoid that than take a chance on it.

Also maybe there was some change later when Obama was adopted later by Sotero which might again leave O open to non- natural born citizen charges.

Now the other thing might be other factors that were fudged, his birthdate, maybe his race -white, they might not have had "other" back then, who his father was. But I think it's the natural born citizen thing most likely.

willem

No. The issue is not dual citizenship but the singularity of Obama being a British Citizen at birth for the purposes of Article II.

The singular fact of his British Citizenship at birth is undisputed. That he was also born an American Citizen does not mitigate.

The other 'theories' are presently no better than hearsay and speculation until otherwise reconciled against facts not presently in evidence. I am one who thinks Obama can and is prepared to prove he is an American citizen should the proper authority compel him to do so. We should recognize Obama is well within his rights to preserve the privacy of his birth records, however unethical or improper some may believe that to be.

There are those with standing to bring such an action Quo Warranto. Such action was sought from the US Attorney for the District of Columbia, Jeffery Taylor and from US Attorney General Eric Holder. Apparently Holder has yet to respond. Taylor resigned his office a few weeks after the request was brought.

Taylor's reasons are likely unrelated, but in the Obama era IGs are dropping like flies.

Go here to read Donofrio's formal letter to Taylor (cc'd Holder) and the three part overview of Quo Warranto. You'll need to scroll down: http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/

glasater

-- how and why would a pregnant 18-year old college student, in 1961, make a 10,748 mile journey to Africa?

Why would Stanley Ann take a brand new baby a week old or less out of Hawaii to Mercer Island WA to visit a high school classmate?
The classmate had to diaper the baby Barry 'cause Stanley Ann didn't know how.
I remember that video interview well shown before the election.

modulo

I don't understand. Why aren't you people focusing on Obama's mother's birth certificate? This is what counts. He's an American citizen, no matter where he was born. Surely you can milk several years worth of craziness out of the smudge marks of Kansas certificates.

Remember how you proved Vince Foster was killed by Hillary Clinton herself? It wasn't through seeing if he had properly insured his car the night she had him eliminated.

Focus, wingnuts.

I know that's hard to do when Obama is busy obscuring them.

Naw, modulo, she was not old enough to confer citizenship on him if he were born outside of the US. Focus on facts. A small and useful point.

Imitation is the best compliment.

No, sylvia, read the law. She wasn't old enough to confer citizenship on him.

Thanks, Willem, for the clarification.

That's one reason I favor Vancouver over Kenya, glasater, yet I still think that Honolulu is most likely. With a midwife, maybe.

Excellent, 'created or saved'. You're a hoot.

PeterUK

"Remember how you proved Vince Foster was killed by Hillary Clinton herself? It wasn't through seeing if he had properly insured his car the night she had him eliminated.

Focus, wingnuts. "

They did,remember how they proved Bill Clinton was a liar?

But tell me Modulo,wh are you so concerned that the "wingnuts" don't make a mistake? Surely them being wrong would further your case better.
No,let's face it ,deep down,you are worried about the cuckoo in the nest.

peter

The Constitution doesn't merely require that the President be born an American citizen; he must have been born on American soil.

My take is that the Obama/Soros/Axelturf erasure is because the birth certificate lists his religion as Muslim.

PeterUK

The most likely option is that the birth certificate says Barry Dunham.Barrack Hussein Obama was a construct to further a political career,much like Malcolm X and Louis Farrakhan.

Pagar

We should recognize Obama is well within his rights to preserve the privacy of his birth records,

I don't see why we should recognize that at all. No American that requires a passport is allowed to obtain one with out a birth certificate. No American who requires a Top Secret clearance is allowed to obtain one with out a birth certificate.

Arliss

It does not matter how many documents Obama provides, you will claim that all of them are forgeries or some other unbelievable explanation of why you don't believe it.
He produced it, it was verified by Factcheck.org, politifact.com and World Net Daily, among others, these people actually held it in their hand and you won't believe them either!
Sore losers is all!

Arliss

"No American that requires a passport is allowed to obtain one with out a birth certificate. No American who requires a Top Secret clearance is allowed to obtain one with out a birth certificate."

There is your answer!
Since he has obtained all those documents how did he do it without providing proof?
Grow up!

Arliss poses.

Arliss, you young silly; he was not scrutinized for top secret clearance. He gets it automatically with the Presidency. Perhaps the same with his passport.

You'll feel more grown up when you can provide proof whereof you speak.

Please, not another idiot.

Reading back; Arliss, I think that if you'll check 'World Net Daily' is not asserting the authenticity of that short form 'copy'. Quite the opposite. We've also shown how inexpert was the factcheck.org review, which was clownishly short of forensic quality.

Ignatz

--Since he has obtained all those documents how did he do it without providing proof?
Grow up!--

Nobody's saying he doesn't have one, dunce.
He won't allow it to be shown.
Brain up!

JBean

The most likely option is that the birth certificate says Barry Dunham.Barrack Hussein Obama was a construct to further a political career,much like Malcolm X and Louis Farrakhan.

Posted by: PeterUK | July 16, 2009 at 06:47 AM

"I saw it for what it was: a lie."
-- B. H. Obama, "Dreams from my Father"

Dave Weigel

I'd love for someone to show me a source for the "Obama has spent a million dollars fighting this" claim. Unfortunately, no one can, because it's a myth. Most of these lawsuits, like Cook's today, have been tossed out of court without an Obama lawyer even showing up.

sylvia

Hmm, I didn't know religion was on a birth certificate. Was it? Kind of a separation of church and state issue violation I would think. If so that would might be something.

And I don't think the law says that the mother has to be a certain age at birth. I know I read the law before and it said the parent had to have lived a certain numbers of years in the US. But someone should feel free to post the law again so we can see.

But I think if I had to guess, it has to do with Sotero, because I remember Michelle Obama saying something about the birth cert issue and saying how unfair it was that people were picking on her husband just because he lived in Indonesia. So I think the clue she was telling us was Indonesia. Now if someone knows the law here, can there be some retroactive US citizenship problems if Sotero made Obama an Indonesian citizen when he was a child? That might interfere with the natural born citizen thing.

Or maybe the other poster was right in that Obama is a dual citizen, either British or Indonesian, or maybe both, and that Axelrod didn't know how that would go down, and with the natural born citizen worry, so that is why the bc is hidden.

bad

case dismissed

smrstrauss

Re: "the MSM is lying about what HI said. Simply concentrate on that and the rest will fall into place."

Not true. Obama was born in Hawaii. The statement by the two officials that there is an original birth certificate in his file means that he must have been born in Hawaii. In 1961 a foreign birth certificate could not be entered into Hawaii government birth certificate files.

And the statement of the two officials that there was an original birth certificate means that he was born in Hawaii. That is what the press spokeswoman for the department said. http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/11/obama_hawaaianborn_citizen_for.html

And, finally, there is this lady who recalls Obama's birth because she wrote about the unusual event of a woman named Stanley giving birth to her father, who also was called Stanley: http://www.buffalonews.com/494/story/554495.html

smrstrauss

Re: "Obama has spent over a million dollars squashing numerous suits'

Yes, but they were all about stopping the election, stopping the certification of the election or, more recently, taking away the results of the election. None just asked for documents. All insisted that even if Obama were born in Hawaii (and he was), the election would still not be valid because of Obama's father.

smrstrauss

Re: "if Sotero made Obama an Indonesian citizen when he was a child?'

The short answer is he didn't. Obama was never an Indonesian citizen. Both the Indonesian government and the US State Department (http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/strunk-answer.pdf, and see the answer at 40) have now said that.

It was actually very difficult to get citizenship in Indonesia, particularly for US children, and we do not know that his parents even tried. However, there is one document showing that they lied and said that he was an Indonesian citizen for application to an Indonesian school. (Do parents sometimes lie for their childrens' benefit? Sure they do.) In any case, both governments now say that Obama was never an Indonesian citizen.

Ignatz

Thanks for all that info smrstrauss.

So how come the people of the US can't see this birth certificate on file of the most transparent president in history?
Why is suit after suit brought and fought when simply releasing it would put an end to all of this silliness?

Mom

And why has Obama's Dept. of Defense "fought" the current suit by not only rescinding Cook's orders, but by forcing Cook's private employer to fire him from his regular job?

richard mcenroe

Kansans value arugula?

SP

NO pointed disinformation, I'm fairly sure the Department of Law handles that stuff.

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