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August 06, 2009

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'Absolutely, indisputably, provably', I love you for your hyperbole.

There's testimony from a high school friend that she was in Washington state shortly after the birth. Supposedly inexpert at diaper changing, too. That's an odd one, because how long does it take to get passably adept. Even cloth and safety pins unless she was really maladroit.

MJW

sylvia, they couldn't lie and say he was born in a hosptial. Hospitals submit the information for hospital births. The "long form" is the birth certificate, and it's generated for all registered births. The "short form" is generated in response to a request for proof of birth and is based on the information in the long form. The long form is always maintained in the state records.

sylvia

Yeah okay, I admit, that one was crazy. But I only remember reading about one woman in Seattle when Obama was about 7 months old. Shouldn't there have been more? If there are, I haven't read about it yet. Of course, not to say Obama couldn't have visited occassionally.

Danube of Thought

"Simple,she was a 'Third Worldist' as evinced by her marriages to a Kenyan and an Indonesian.She wanted her baby to be born in Africa."

Right, so she could brag about his African birth later, but in the meantime she had immediately to enter into a plot to make sure that, despite being born in Africa, he would be an American, and thus eligible, for example, to be drafted once he turned eighteen. She could show off his true Kenyan birth certificate, or his phony Hawaiian one, depending on what kind of cocktail party she was attending.

It's all beginning to make sense now.

Porchlight

Shouldn't there have been more? If there are, I haven't read about it yet.

I've read two interviews, one with a high school friend of Ann's (the one who talked about changing Barry's diaper shortly after Ann's arrival in Seattle) and another from a woman (last name Toutonghi) who lived in the house where Ann rented an apartment. She claimed to have babysat Barry in spring 1962.

sylvia

"The long form is always maintained in the state records. "

Well okay that answers my question that the long form does exist then. Whether it was filled out by the hospital or based on an affadavit by the grandparents. And if the long orm says a hospital, then he was prob born in a hospital. So that's the main unanswered question.

sylvia

Thanks Porchlight. Another conspiracy theory strickened.

'Absolutely, indisputably, provably',  That's your problem.

DoT, your fantasies are very entertaining to yourself, peopled with the straw people as they are, I see.

I agree that the words of the step-grandmother are poor support for the argument that he was born in Kenya. What about my point that the conversation was through translators and we do not know what she said. I notice you don't directly quote her. So where are the absolutes?

Danube of Thought

"A conspiracy so vast it could consist entirely of Obama's mother."

At age eighteen, fresh from her return trip from Mombasa. (The Dunhams would no doubt be relieved to learn of their exoneration.)

So now we have a Third World freak who flies to Kenya to give birth so she can say her son was born in Africa, then immediately flies to Hawaii to falsify his birth record so she can say he wasn't.

You people need to check with Lou Dobbs (or Orly Taitz) and get your stories straight.

MJW

sylvia, yes, if the long form says he was born in a hospital, he was.

It's in front of your face.

There's an easy way to make this story straight, DoT. Don't you wonder why Obama doesn't make it so?

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Sylvia: I think the long form was the standard form generated back then. It wasn't until the advent of computer databases and the transitions to computerized forms that the short forms became the norm.

I wrote in another thread how I have 4 different styles of my own birth certificate. One very fancy with my footprints and names in calligraphy from the hospital. What you might call the Baby Book copy. Then I have a long form and two different styles of short forms. One of the shorts is green and looks identical to the short form for Obama, the last which I got about 5 years ago has the same info on it that the green one has, only the form itself is now gold with a fancy blue border (the PA state colors).

I have in my files a long form for my Mother, born in PA in 1910. It is very much like the '60s long forms except it is all handwritten. Then in 1998, she sent off for another copy to use for getting her passport and she got one of the short form gold and blue copies, similar to the last one I requested for myself.

sylvia

Well I think by process of elimination, we can safely assume that Obama was not born here. The only main difference between the short form, which is generated from the long form, and the long form, is the hospital and attending physician.

Now why would Obama want to hide that? Since the parents couldn't lie about the hospital, as it's filled out officially, that should be accurate and not a problem.

The only thing he would want to hide is if the cert says 'home birth'. We can assume it says home birth because that's the only possibility left, as compared to him being born in, say, in Kenya, as the official states he was born in Hawaii.

He knows that if we see home birth the alarm bells are going to ring. That could be the only thing he is hiding.

Tom Maguire

For those of you who distain the effect of the two contemporaneous newspaper announcements, I have yet another question. Do you know the source of the information in those announcements or do you just assume, while scratching your head with only one finger, that relatives provided the information?

I guess Mike O is sold by the newspaper guy who wasn't around in 1961 but is pretty sure about how it was routinely done years later. As to whether deviations from the routine ever ocurred, who knows? Whatever.

As far as I am concerned, if the Dunhams spoofed the Dept of Health in early August 1961 (the short form says the birth was registered just a few days after Aug 4) then Baby Barack's name could easily end up on a totally routine list of babies born that week put out by the Dept of Health, and be published by both newspapers.

I can't explain the consistent failures of imagination by the faith-based community on these minor points.

Now, the fact that the twins born a day later (or earlier) have very close certificate numbers to Baby Barack certainly suggests someone at a hospital was just tearing forms off a pre-printed booklet. Which is just one reason I would bet that Barack was in fact born in that hospital. But my hunches are not proof.

(And if I was really paranoid - the State of Hawaii has never confirmed that the certificate displayed by the campaign is authentic and matches their records in every particular, so one might wonder whether the cert. number was posted after the twins were discovered (I haven't checked the timing of the twins arrival into the mix, but the certificate number was blacked out in the first release, per Fact Check or Politifact.

But that is Just Sayin' - I don't think the campaign doctored the document.

MJW

DoT, IO didn't say it did consist only of his mother, I was only showing your claim that some vast conspiracy was required is hogwash. If in the improbable event Obama was born outside the U.S., then the vast conspiracy probably involved his mother and her parents.

As I mentioned previously, Texas has had problems with midwives falsely obtaining birth certificates for Mexican-born children. Were they all criminal masterminds?

So, now what is he hiding?

Well we can all chill a little about Kenya. Dave Weigel is reporting from the hoaxters. See it on Memeorandum.

eh, Orly didn't authenticate it well enough. She'll not make that mistake again.

sylvia

The other possibilty is my adoption theory and that Obama cannot get a copy of a long form unless he has some court hearings. I think that might be as likely a possibility. The last possibility is there is an "illegitimate" on his bc.

narciso

This is getting a bit annoying, the document presented by Newsweek in the intro to their op ed section, is the the actual
COLB, so what has the 1.6 million toPerkins,
Coie, been about; and how would it differ.

Most of the time, you have better instincts than the GOP, I think we're a good proxy for the bases although I'm beginning to wonder on this detail. Klein's reaction is most instructive and not in a good way, they
don't care about the rules, or more precisely they hold them in such contempt, that they don't feel they need to abide by them. From campaign finance, to the I.G. bill he sponsored himself, to a hundred other things, mostly of an Alinskyite bent.

MJW

Dot: You people need to check with Lou Dobbs (or Orly Taitz) and get your stories straight.

Heck, I forgot that when I became a Birther I signed a contract agreeing to believe what everyone else believes!

Sara (Pal2Pal)

TM:

From the article:

Gretchen Nordyke followed at 2:17 p.m. and was given No. 151 – 61 – 10638, which was also filed with the Hawaii registrar Aug. 11, 1961.

According to a version of Obama's purported short-form certificate available from FactCheck.org, Obama was given a higher registration number than the Nordyke twins. The online image indicates the number is No. 151 – 1961 – 10641, even though he was born Aug. 4, 1961, the day before the twins, and his birth was registered with the Hawaii registrar three days earlier, Aug. 8, 1961.

The middle figure in Obama's purported registration also is different than the Nordykes'. Obama's is 1961, indicating the year, while the Nordykes' is merely 61.

Sylvia:

I cannot read the long form as published for the twins close enough to see if one of the boxes says Legitimate birth. My son's long form has such a box which is checked either yes or no.

fdcol63

Someday, we'll be hearing about the "Magic Sperm" theory:

Just whose sperm was it that impregnated Stanley Ann Dunham?

LOL

sylvia

"Now, the fact that the twins born a day later (or earlier) have very close certificate numbers to Baby Barack certainly suggests someone at a hospital was just tearing forms off a pre-printed booklet. Which is just one reason I would bet that Barack was in fact born in that hospital. "

I'm not sure about that. That's assuming all the numbers are assigned at the hospital. I'm thinking the numbers are assigned at the appropriate government office to keep it organized. Otherwise there would be numbers all over the place from different hospitals. If the Dunhams take out an affadavit the same time as the births at the hospital, the numbers should be similar. They would prob just do it in sequential order.

PeterUK

"Right, so she could brag about his African birth later, but in the meantime she had immediately to enter into a plot to make sure that, despite being born in Africa, he would be an American,"

No,because she married a shit and changed her mind,eighteen year old girls do that. You are thinking legal,think romantic.
It doesn't have to be a plot but a cock up.

Actually I don't give a toss where Obama was born,but the whole thing stinks.

I have said it before,when the people get angry this will blow up. Legal,schmeagle? It won't matter. Remember "Read my lips,no more taxes"?

MJW

TM: Now, the fact that the twins born a day later (or earlier) have very close certificate numbers to Baby Barack certainly suggests someone at a hospital was just tearing forms off a pre-printed booklet. Which is just one reason I would bet that Barack was in fact born in that hospital. But my hunches are not proof.

I looked into this a bit, and I strongly suspect that isn't the case. Everything I seen (which admittedly isn't that much) indicates the numbers are assigned by the state dept. of health after they're forwarded by the local registrar.

Dave (in MA)
I've read two interviews, one with a high school friend of Ann's (the one who talked about changing Barry's diaper shortly after Ann's arrival in Seattle) and another from a woman (last name Toutonghi) who lived in the house where Ann rented an apartment. She claimed to have babysat Barry in spring 1962.
There he sat, in his Vero Possumus playpen, babbling along with his Playskool My First TelePrompter™ and making baby-talk straw-man arguments about who was responsible for the load in his diaper.
PeterUK

"So now we have a Third World freak who flies to Kenya to give birth so she can say her son was born in Africa, then immediately flies to Hawaii to falsify his birth record so she can say he wasn't."

She spent much of her life in the Third World,she did marry two men from the Third World.
Stanley also did a lot of running away.It doesn't have to be a plot just happenstance.Nobody needs to have deliberately tried to falsify the birth records.

In that environment, speculative growth is fungoid.

narciso, it's really pretty simple. Either that long form doesn't say he was born in Hawai'i, or it says so but leaves open questions like Tom's or it has something embarrassing on it. Furthermore, the something embarrassing is likely something pretty major, probably in contrast to his 'life story', and will bring up the question of 'what did he know and when did he know it'.

You pays your money and you takes your chances. Apparently Obama is not willing to pay his $15 and take his chances with the good sense and good humour of the American people. Better that they get the mushroom diet.

sylvia

Yes in fact, if the numbers of the twins and Obama are out of order, that to mean suggests that the forms came into the health dept from different sources, ir hospital and home. If they were both born at the same hospital, they should be in order. Of course, I think I heard there were two hospitals so that could be it too.

I don't know, I think I am getting birthered out for today. It's tiring being a birther!

Suppose Obama offered you a grand bridge, but with no title.

DoT's credulousness is greater than that of most birthers. Lots of birthers simply have no idea what to believe and are amazed at the simple faith of the non-skeptical.

Danube of Thought

Here's an inconvenient one, expanding the conspiracy yet further:

"This story elicited a number of thoughtful responses from readers; the most interesting of which came from a one Mrajczak, who referred us to a January 20, 2009, Buffalo News story about a retired schoolteacher named Barbara Nelson, who was quoted as saying: 'I may be the only person left who specifically remembers his (Obama’s) birth. His parents are gone, his grandmother is gone, the obstetrician who delivered him is gone.'

"According to Nelson, who lived in Hawaii in 1961, she was having dinner at the Outrigger Canoe Club on Waikiki Beach with Dr. Rodney T. West, the father of her college friend, Jo-Anne. Making conversation, Nelson turned to Dr. West and said: ‘So, tell me something interesting that happened this week,’ she recalls. His response: 'Well, today, Stanley had a baby. Now that’s something to write home about.'

"The new mother was Stanley (later referred to by her middle name of Ann) Dunham, and the baby was Barack Hussein Obama. 'I penned the name on a napkin, and I did write home about it,' said Nelson, knowing that her father, Stanley A. Czurles, would be interested in the 'Stanley' connection. She also remembers Dr. West mentioning that the baby’s father was the first black student at the University of Hawaii and how taken he was by the baby’s name."

Sounds made up to me--the woman clearly had a motive to lie. I'm comfortable with that.

Danube of Thought

"I signed a contract agreeing to believe what everyone else believes!"

Apparently not.

The horror! The horror!

OMG! Maybe DOT was right!! Sotomayer was confirmed while we dallied about on the COLB.

matt

look, if his "mother's" name is Stanley, obviously he must have been the product of a miscegenated lesbian/gay/bi/transgendered transcultural relationship. No wonder he's confused.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

As far as I'm concerned, the adoption throws a monkey wrench into the works. I base this again on personal experience with my adopted daughter.

Her original birth certificate shows her birth parents and is for all intents exactly like any other certificate issued in Calif. in 1969.

At the time of the adoption when we were in the judge's chambers, we were reminded that once he signed the order and it was sent to the Registrar, a new birth certificate would be issued and she would never again be able to prove she was the child of anyone except my husband and me. We were required to turn in any existing copies of her original.

When we got the amended birth certificate, it looked identical to her original except my name, age, occupation at time of her birth was substituted for the birth mother's info, and my husband's name, age, and occupation were substituted for the natural father.

What surprised me was the backdating. Our ages and occupations were backdated to what they would have been in 1969, not what they were in 1974 when the actual adoption took place.

Everything else was the same, including the delivery doc's sig and the hospital name.

Perhaps, and this is a big perhaps, there is only the amended certificate on file if the Soetoro adoption was handled legally and went thru the courts as our own adoption did.

As I recall, we didn't have to do much except give the lawyer all the info and existing records and the courts and the state did the rest. We did have to go thru a session with child services, but as I recall, this was pretty much a formality since both birth parents were giving up their rights voluntarily and we had the proper forms for that in the file.

As to that file, I doubt even I could get that file unsealed, if it even still exists. My memory is fuzzy, but I think it was destroyed upon the issuance of the amended birth certificate.

Danube of Thought

"As I mentioned previously, Texas has had problems with midwives falsely obtaining birth certificates for Mexican-born children."

That pretty much cinches it for me.

MJW

I meant to add: One source I saw indicated that a least for some states, the registrations received by state health dept. are sorted alphabetically before they're assigned numbers. That would explain why Obama followed Nordyke. It does, though, potentially raise another question. From the very limited evidence I've seen, it appears Honolulu-filed registrations were processed very promptly. For the Nordyke twins, the dates for "filed with local register" and "filed with registrar general" are the same, and as far as I can determine, that wasn't unusual. Maybe the offices were close by. Obama's BC was filed with the local registrar on Aug. 8, while the twins' BCs were filed on Aug. 11. Why was Obama's BC in the same batch as the Nordyke twins? (I don't claim much significance for that, though, since it's based on a very limited sample.)

MJW

DoT: That pretty much cinches it for me.

It refutes the notion that a vast conspiracy is required to obtain a false birth certificate.

PeterUK

Obama popularity plunge makes UK papers. He doesn't look too happy.
The virgin birth may be tosh,but it could be worth the odd percentage.

clarice

I love PUK and I don't care who knows it! Here we are in August--dead time news wise except for this bit of fluffery and after days of this PUK can still make it seem amusing.

MJW

I may be the only person left who specifically remembers his (Obama’s) birth. His parents are gone, his grandmother is gone, the obstetrician who delivered him is gone.

The only one left who remembers Obama's birth. Because, after all, the was way, way back in 1961, so hardly anyone living then is still alive, and Ann Dunham had no friends or acquaintances, and no baby shower, and she lived in a cave far from civilization, and...

Danube of Thought

"It refutes the notion that a vast conspiracy is required to obtain a false birth certificate" in Texas.

Dumpster Diving on Vacation.

Oh, c'mon, you are not really going to push the argument that it takes a vast conspiracy to obtain a false birth certificate. Have you not been reading here that Hawai'i issues them on the affidavits of relatives? Have you never heard of a small number of relatives conspiring to fool government bureaucracy?

And DoT, there is a vast number of anti-birther sites for you to glean your information from. They are all highly credible.

MJW

DoT: "It refutes the notion that a vast conspiracy is required to obtain a false birth certificate" in Texas.

Well I did forget that Hawaii has its famous Birth Certificate Police, to track down anyone falsely claiming a home birth.

That was hearsay, too.  Pshaw.

How many testimonials from the likes of DoT's Barbara Nelson will it take to have the effect of one genuine, long form, vault copy birth certificate?

Do you see how desperate you seem, DoT? Why the desperation? Why do you cling so bitterly to your contention that Obama is a legitimate natural born citizen when you have so little proof?

Ignatz

--Ignatz, that's the old, pre-election, 2008 statement. She doesn't say that this time, unless I'm mistaken, and that's always possible.--

I believe what she backtracks is the idea that she has authenticated the COLB. I have read no backtracking that the records in HI's possession, which she had reviewed, do not say exactly what she said they do.

So, on one side we have the Sec of Health of HI saying she has seen the original BC stating he was born in HI. On the other side we have....what exactly, other than speculation?
Like McCarthy I wonder why he doesn't just release whatever is there and his refusal to do so, especially considering how assiduously he has managed his history, raises the strong possibility there is something there that is embarrassing. But the strongest evidence we have is that his place of birth is not that something. And since it isn't the whole issue of natural born this, that or the other is gone too.

So my hope is someday the info is produced and it is exquisitley embarrassing to the jackass and not just a cunning Axelrod setup. However I don't expect it to be anything more than that.
If basing that expectation on the only semi-concrete evidence that exists makes me a member of the faith based community then presumably people who speculate with little or no evidence are members of the reality based community?

Mark O

First, my name was noticeably changed to Daisy Mae, then TM, hisownsef, renamed me Mike O. This is a disinformation campaign worthy of Chester A. Arthur.

My point about birth notices in the 1960's in rural America (one year for Hawaii) is based on contemporaneous percipient knowledge, whatever that is. But, this is a most interesting game. Whenever someone points out a major factual flaw in the conspiracy theory, TM credits Obama's family or friends with uncanny intelligence and foresight.

ME: What about the newspapers?

TM: Family did it because of (possibility of custody battle, presidential aspirations, Hippies, culture).

ME: Why two papers, then?

TM: (crickets)

ME: In those days the hospitals sent the notices to rural papers.

TM: The hell you say. You don't know that, now do you?

ME: Yes.

TM: OK. So Obama's family planted the information at the hospital.

ME: NFW!

TM: My hunches are not proof.

ME: (crickets)

MJW

MO: What about the newspapers?

MJW: Health Dept. sends them to paperfor both hospital births and home births.

MO: Why two papers, then?

TM: Health Dept. sends them to both papers.

MO: In those days the hospitals sent the notices to rural papers.

MJW: No, I think it was the Health Dept. like Health Dept. spokesman Janice Okubo said it was.

MO: (katydids)

PeterUK

Thank you Clarice.When Obama gets taken, in handcuffs by Immigration,to be deported back to his homeland,you can say. "I was there!"

PeterUK

Ignatz,
"So my hope is someday the info is produced and it is exquisitley embarrassing to the jackass and not just a cunning Axelrod setup."

This isn't going before a Judge,it is going before the Court of Public Opinion.These people are the same who believe Princess Diana was assassinated on the Orders of the Duke of Edinburgh. Once this hits the public imagination,the Three Wise Men,the Archangel Gabriel,the Dalai Lama and Bono himself can vouch for Obama and these people won't believe it.
Remember "There's no smoke without fire".

Ignatz

--This isn't going before a Judge,it is going before the Court of Public Opinion.--

Precisely my point PUK.
From the start I have said there is no there, there, legally. But that whatever is there could be very damaging and embarrassing, politically.
So I still advocate marginal players continue to dig until something solid turns up, but that it not hit the mainstream until it's ready.
To do otherwise is to risk not only sandbagging but public fatigue.

--and Ann Dunham had no friends or acquaintances, and no baby shower, and she lived in a cave far from civilization, and...

Well, if she was anything like her son......

Mark O

So now it's Katy? You can say she did, but those large health departments in rural America in 1961 may disagree.

How is she related to Obama? Tim M will know.

Stephanie

Maybe the race of the child is listed as "white." Many AA babies are born that look white for the first few weeks then the melanin darkens.

Maybe the Dunhams pranked the Health Dept. Would that have been done to protect the family in 1960 in a racially charged atmosphere? Would that be why he is so touchy about granma and her fears of "black folks?"

The dad wasn't there at the birth, so who present at the birth could disprove that the dad was one Barack Obama and that he was white? Then Stanley departed HI for school and who in Hawaii was any wiser?

Granma punked his blackness afore he was born... damned racist bitch...

Stephanie

in the 1960s...

Extraneus

I'm with Ignatz. It makes no sense inviting them to paint 39% of Republicans as fevered conspiracy theorists when we have them on the run. It's enough to say, "Gee, I don't know about birtherism, but it does seem strange that he hasn't produced his real birth certificate, college transcripts, SAT scores, legislative and community organizing history, etc.," and move on to issues of freedom, deficits, government takeovers, $4B pay-off to ACORN, and the shocking growth of government. Some people will stay on this, and if anything comes out of it later, great. For now, it's time to prepare for the likely economic recovery and make sure Obama and the Democrats are laughed out of the room when they try to take credit for it.

Mahon

It's hard to see how anyone can say this doesn't matter. Obama is indeed President no matter what, but if it ever becomes clear that he is not a native born American it would present a real Constitutional obstacle to his running for reelection, which is a thing of no small consequence.

Personally, I believe that he was born in Hawaii but that there is something on the long-form certificate that he doesn't want us to see - say, his real name, or the real father, or something else.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Extraneus: Have you not learned by now that Rep/Conservatives are their own worst enemy? They destroyed the Bush 2nd term over things where they felt they'd lost control. Most especially the Medicare drug bill, that has actually proved quite successful and is well liked. But we had Meirs and Dubai and all kinds of smaller issues where the "elites" wanted to position themselves above it all. Status trumps ideology.

Remember, their guy, and who was their guy during the Primaries of 2000, got beat by Bush. Not to worry, they'd just make sure he got his chance. But when he did, they didn't vote for him, why?, because there was that woman, who was everything that threatens, was on the ticket. And why is she everything that threatens? Because, she made it to the top of the heap without all the trappings of status that they hold so dear. To listen to some of them, they expect that at a State Dinner she would eat her peas with her knife and spit on the floor.

Do you think they care that by mocking those of supposedly their own political persuasion, they are handing the issue to the other side. Nah.

Easier to call those wanting answers on why all the obfuscation about our President's background fools, than to do as you say, "It's enough to say, "Gee, I don't know about birtherism, but it does seem strange that he hasn't produced his real birth certificate, college transcripts, SAT scores, legislative and community organizing history, etc.," and move on to issues of freedom, deficits, government takeovers, $4B pay-off to ACORN, and the shocking growth of government.

And now that the left has started mocking the Brooks Bros. set attending Town Halls and Tea Parties, watch for the rats deserting faster than real rats desert a sinking ship. They no more want the public at large in control than Obama, Pelosi, Reid and the rest of that crowd.

rick

I was just wondering about the middle numbers. It seems strange that one birth certificate has the middle numbers of 61 and the other has middle numbers of 1961 when the certificate was issued by the same Health Dept or whoever. I can't believe they kept 2 stacks of certificates, one with 61 as the middle number and one with 1961 as the middle number. And I am not even a birther. I worked in IT and certificate numbers followed rules of how the numbers were generated. You would not change them arbitrarily.

cathyf
What surprised me was the backdating. Our ages and occupations were backdated to what they would have been in 1969, not what they were in 1974 when the actual adoption took place.
This is off-topic, but what the heck I'm finding the topic boring...

In my church growing up we had a wonderful couple, Karl and Ingrid Schultz, who were foster parents to pregnant teenagers who had been thrown out by their parents. They adopted one of the girls -- the girl was 16 and Ingrid was 33. When Ingrid saw the revised birth certificate she was highly amused -- it said that Ingrid was 17 when she "gave birth" to the girl. So she ended up being an "unmarried teenage mother" just like all her foster daughters!

MJW

rick, the certificate numbering system was changed some years ago. It used to be a three digit state code (151 for Hawaii), a two digit year, and a five digit sequence number. It's now a three digit state code, a four digit year, and a six digit sequence number.

Hawaii prints all recent certificates using the new format. Even though Obama's original birth certificate used the old format, Obama's COLB was printed in 2007, so it was printed using the expanded format.

Bottom line: it's insignificant.

Bob

It's only a conspiracy so vast because so many are so stupid and have no clue what they are talking about. The B.C. is probably a distraction but who knows? In spite of his ridiculous autobiographies, Obama is basically the Manchurian Candidate. So many of his records are shrouded in mystery that anyone with a brain doesn't trust him any farther than they can throw him. Never mind what a transparent manipulator he is.

What everyone is missing is that he doesn't qualify as a natural-born citizen not because of the B.C. but because the definition of natural born citizen is that one must be born to U.S. citizen parents (plural) on U.S. soil. Probably McCain fails the test because of the latter condition but Obama fails certainly for the former condition -- he has published books admitting his father was British/Kenyan, d'oh -- regardless of whether he passes the latter.

There's a lot of fog thrown up on this by a lot of folks now including even Taranto of all people. But if you read carefully through Donofrio's site, (the lawyer who pressed the recent suits on this particular angle) and keep an open mind to the context and arguments of the founding (were the founders deathly afraid of relapsing under the rule of a British king? umm, yeah) you might be surprised. The presidency's requirements were specifically upgraded from citizen to natural born citizen by John Jay to avoid the chance of split loyalties and foreign influence on the commander in chief. It's actually just common sense if you think about it.

The great irony when you pay attention to this argument is that it's actually possible that by electing Obama we have elected a British king for ourselves.

Even better, there's a lot of evidence that Obama is the second British king. Donofrio has done some interesting research on Chester Arthur.

A recent piece of frosting that Donofrio has pointed out is Washington's farewell address and it's warnings about the divisiveness of political parties possibly leading to foreign influence. We now have our "Citizen of the World" and unresolvably bitter political acrimony. The only surprise is that it took so long before the republic degenerated into mobocracy.

FeFe

Why does it matter? Voter registration. Look at ACORN, registering and voting the same day, and Attorney General Eric "Nation of Cowards" Holder trying to deny Georgia requiring proof of citizenship for voter registration. As your newer post notes, anyone can make the type of birth certificate Obama has produced to date. Is it any wonder identification theft is rampant from illegals?

President Barack Hussein Obama II believes in amnesty so to provide solid proof of citizenship would go against his agenda, and counter his buying votes with taxpayer funds.

Orion

Assuming for the sake of argument that Obama was born in Kenya and thus doesn't qualify as a "natural born citizen", the only difference it makes now would be that he couldn't run for re-election. Every state requires candidates to swear that they meet the qualifications for President (over 35 and a natural born citizen) before they can be placed on the ballot and there would be court challenges in all 50 states if he tried to say he did. So, barring a Constitutional Amendment between now and 2012 Obama would be a 1-term President.

Would he be thrown out now? Unlikely - the only time to challenge a candidate's qualification after the election is when the electoral ballots are delivered to Congress. If it could be proven that Obama knew he wasn't qualified before the election he could be impeached for perjury. Good luck with that.

The actual effect of the birther controversy is that, as you mentioned, the man who ran on the promise of "transparency" would turn out to be a lying snake. This would not bother his leftwing supporters one whit - they couldn't care less if he bled green as long as it meant they kept power in Washington. There are so many other reasons for conservatives to vote against him that he wouldn't lose (or gain) a single vote in that bloc. The moderates might be less inclined to vote for him or his programs but again he's bleeding support there, too, for many other good reasons.

The reason for the natural birth clause isn't trivial nor is it likely to be removed any time soon. Remove it and half the billionaires in Europe would be rushing to put down roots in the States so they could make a run for President; Soros in the lead. In the future we'll have to be more careful about making sure it's met AND PROOF IS PROVIDED IN ADVANCE so we don't have this ugliness flare up again.

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