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August 05, 2009

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Comments

mockmook

I believe commenter willem is arguing Myth 2 (and I believe he links to other "monarchists"), so some are making that argument IIRC.

bad

Dude was born in a barn regardless or the country.

mockmook

or "monarchers"?

BumperStickerist

Tom,

Save me a seat at the reeducation camp.

BumperStickerist

Proposed alternate headline:

Salon myths Obama.
I myth him too.

.

Porchlight

The truth is that it was the original release of the certification of live birth that kicked off the Birther movement to begin with.

Couldn't have had anything to do with the fact that the "original release" was on Daily freaking Kos, could it?

And anyway, this is a canard. The COLB was "released" after the rumors had already been swirling for quite awhile.

PD

Myth 8: If Obama would just release his birth certificate, he could end all this

Maybe this is a myth, and maybe not. There's an easy way to find out, but until Obama *does* release it, the anti-birther's point that "nothing will satisfy the birthers" is just empty speculation.

Geek, Esq.

So the short form which has "proven" his birth in Hawaii to the true believers has only convinced me that paperwork exists claiming Obama was born in Hawaii. Accurate or not, that paperwork would have then triggered a press release leading to a birth announcement

That paper is legal proof. It is all that matters for the constitution. Whether due to affidavit or hospital records, legally he was born in Hawaii because Hawaii says he was. End of discussion.

Apparently 'true believers' are the people who believe that legal evidence is evidence, while independent thinkers are those who think their imaginations trump logic and the legal system.

But, I understand what TM is doing here. He has to run interference and explain why the 50% of the Republican base that is crazier than Tom Cruise on a couch isn't the bunch of racist nutjobs they plainly appear to be.

Geek, Esq.

So the short form which has "proven" his birth in Hawaii to the true believers has only convinced me that paperwork exists claiming Obama was born in Hawaii. Accurate or not, that paperwork would have then triggered a press release leading to a birth announcement.

That paper is legal proof. It is all that matters for the constitution. Whether due to affidavit or hospital records, legally he was born in Hawaii because Hawaii says he was. End of discussion.

Apparently 'true believers' are the people who believe that legal evidence is evidence, while independent thinkers are those who think their imaginations trump logic and the legal system.

But, I understand what TM is doing here. He has to run interference and explain why the 50% of the Republican base that is crazier than Tom Cruise on a couch isn't the bunch of racist nutjobs they plainly appear to be.


Pofarmer

Couldn't have had anything to do with the fact that the "original release" was on Daily freaking Kos, could it?

And anyway, this is a canard. The COLB was "released" after the rumors had already been swirling for quite awhile.

Exactly. I think "released" would mean certified copies by certified carrier from the Health department in Hawaii to the various newsrooms, or bloggers, or whatever.

A piece of paper(maybe) transferred from a campaign to an extremely partisan website, doesn't constitute any kind of "release".

It's not the fact that he "released" it, it's the fact that the non-release was so dismissive and ham-handed. A proper release could have shut all this down months ago.

Appalled

If the Kenya theory is demonstrably bogus -- then there is absolutely no reason to demand the release of Obama's birth certificate. Do you all agree with that?

If you don't -- I'm curious -- why? If you do, check out the LUN from the loadstone of all things birth certificate -- World Net Daily, and tell me how a trip to Kenya is plausible. Particularly given the fact Obama Sr. seems to have been in school during all of 1961.

And just a matter of curiosity. It seems that Ms. Obama's presence in Washington in Fall 1961 is pretty well established. Anyone know how she ended up there?

(One final point -- I see WND is pushing a story that Fall term at U of washington began late in August 1961. Is that right? I see the documentary evidence WND has on its website, and it seems like the semester could have as easily begin in September.) The copy is bad -- and the "8", denoting August, could just as easily be a "9".

Pofarmer

"Apparently 'true believers' are the people who believe that legal evidence is evidence, "

So, a piece of paper released from a campaign to a hyper partisan website is automatically legal evidence?

I. Don't. Think. So.

Pofarmer

"World Net Daily, and tell me how a trip to Kenya is plausible. Particularly given the fact Obama Sr. seems to have been in school during all of 1961."

Break between semesters to take the new wife home to meet the family?

Appalled

That's a very long, expensive trip for two newlyweds to undertake.

PeterUK.

"There are allegations that what Obama released is a forgery, but state officials have repeatedly affirmed its authenticity and said they've checked it against the original record and that Obama was indeed born in Hawaii."

No,they don't have a clue,they have information that "X" was born on such a date in such a location,but they have no proof either way that Obama is "X".
They can verify that a document is the same as they have on file,but you have innumerable people on social security using similar kinds of documentation,and they are bogus.

Pofarmer

"Break between semesters to take the new wife home to meet the family? "

And, as an added bonus, it's just the kind of thing an 18 year old would do. Plan a big trip(it would have been planned a few months in advance) not thinking "Heh, I'm gonna be 8 months pregnant and miserable."

Pofarmer

"Break between semesters to take the new wife home to meet the family? "

And, as an added bonus, it's just the kind of thing an 18 year old would do. Plan a big trip(it would have been planned a few months in advance) not thinking "Heh, I'm gonna be 8 months pregnant and miserable."

clarice

Baby born in Vancouver, another Commonwealth at the time (see the orginal post above).

I think the latter gains some credence now that it's reasonably well-established that Stanley Anne registered in person for classes in Seattle 15 days after Obama's birthdate and that she never lived with barack Sr after Obama was born contra his self-generated myth that they remained together for 2 years after his birth.

Pofarmer

That's a very long, expensive trip for two newlyweds to undertake.

Yep, but, so what? Do you have any idea what Obama's financial situation was? The Dunham's? Maybe he already had one ticket to go home and they just had to purchase the second?

Appalled

Pofarmer:

An 18 year old is likely going to have to ask Mom and Dad for money. She isn't going to be able to do this on her own.

mantis

Myth 2: Obama can't be president because his father was a British citizen

That claim is so weak I suspect a strawman.

No, it's a pretty common claim in the birther circles.

Instead, we are assured that since you can't please everyone there is no point in trying to please anyone:

This is true, to a point. If Obama were able to get the State of Hawaii to release a copy of the original (I still don't know if he can or not, and the "He's the president; he can do whatever he wants" argument isn't doing it), there are three possible outcomes:

1) It says he was born at Kapi'olani Medical Center, and has the doctor's signature, etc.

2) It says he was born at home, with affidavits from family members/witnesses.

3) It says he was born elsewhere (Kenya, Canada, Mars) and the COLB is incorrect.

Only possibility 3 would be satisfactory to the birthers, as it would confirm their beliefs. If possibility 1 were the case, they would find some other reason to doubt his Hawaiian birth (many of them are already convinced that Hawaiian officials, as well as the US State Department, are in on the conspiracy). If possibility 2 were the case, of course they would claim the family/witnesses lied, and there would be no way to prove it either way, so they would go on believing he was born elsewhere.

So what would be the purpose of Obama legitimizing the birthers and attempting to get the original release? I don't see one, but let's consider Tom's:

releasing his full birth documentation could help elevate the tone in Washington and take some heat off of moderate Republicans trying to work with the President on health care while getting screamed at by the crazy birthers.

Elevate the tone in Washington? Do you seriously believe that would happen? I don't. More likely, there would be a week of hand-wringing and giving every birther in the world airtime to voice their doubts (this is assuming possibility 3 doesn't happen, of course), talking about how Obama is weak because he folded to bunch of loons (the pundits will ignore the fact that they gave said loons airtime to begin with) and then back to business as usual. The tone in Washington would stay exactly the same, IMO. As for taking the heat off of moderate Republicans who want to work with Obama on healthcare, first of all there aren't very many of those, and second I don't think any heat they might be taking from birthers matters compared to the heat their taking from health care reform opponents, which would not stop if Obama's original birth certificate were released.

Pofarmer

An 18 year old is likely going to have to ask Mom and Dad for money. She isn't going to be able to do this on her own.

Like that never happens?

mantis

Break between semesters to take the new wife home to meet the family?

Have you read Obama's book? If it is to be believed (!), Obama Sr. was not only already married in Kenya, but his father was quite displeased with the fact that he married and fathered a child with a white woman. Sounds like a lovely homecoming, doesn't it?

Also, if they were to take a trip to Kenya, in the summer of 1961, why would they do it at the end of the summer when Dunham was very near delivery, instead of in say, June? Seems pretty unlikely to me.

Pofarmer

"talking about how Obama is weak because he folded to bunch of loons "

Oh DO come on. Who is gonna say that?

PeterUK.

Clarice,
The Age of Consent in Canada. It certinly would ease things for a pregnant 17 year old.

Pofarmer

"Have you read Obama's book?"

uhm, no, and I don't particularly intend to.

"If it is to be believed"

Ha, haahahahahahahahaha.

"Also, if they were to take a trip to Kenya, in the summer of 1961, why would they do it at the end of the summer when Dunham was very near delivery, instead of in say, June?"

Who knows why 18 year olds do anything? Maybe she took a summer job to save up for the trip?

Hell, if this were the least weird thing Obama had been involved in, it would all be good.

Porchlight

The Dunhams put Ann on a plane to Seattle shortly after Barack's birth and paid out-of-state tuition for her schooling there all through fall 1961 and spring 1962. I think they might have managed a plane ticket to Kenya the previous summer, too.

The WND article contains part of an interview with a woman who claims to have cared for baby Barack in spring 1962. This snippet is interesting:

When asked why Dunham left her husband in Hawaii to come to Seattle with her infant son, Toutonghi explained Dunham told her that she and the baby would be going to Kenya when she finished her education, as she had promised her parents when she was married.

Toutonghi also added Dunham's explanation that her husband had an obligation to his tribe to take another wife that was a full-blooded Kenyan. Toutongi further commented, "I don't think I could have been that brave."

So if she planned to take the baby to Kenya after graduating, how big a deal would it have been to fly to Kenya while pregnant? From what we know of her, Ann seemed quite adventurous.

Again, not saying any of this ever happened, just that the "it was so expensive and far away" argument isn't persuasive.

boris

"If the Kenya theory is demonstrably bogus -- then there is absolutely no reason to demand the release of Obama's birth certificate. Do you all agree with that?"

Don't care where the arrogant phoney was born. Just drawing attention to the an easy to understand metaphor for the con game being run on the country.

Geek, Esq.

So, a piece of paper released from a campaign to a hyper partisan website is automatically legal evidence?

I. Don't. Think. So.

A piece of paper bearing the offical seal and stamp of the state of Hawaii. A piece of paper that is legal evidence of its contents in every court in the United States.

And, considering that the only people complaining are ultra-partisan cranks to begin with . . . .

P.S. Was the State Dept a 'true believer' when it issued Obama a passport? How about the people who granted him a security clearance?

mantis

Oh DO come on. Who is gonna say that?

All the people who have been saying "I believe he's an American citizen, but there are legitimate questions." I'll bet Dobbs would throw it out there, for one, though he probably wouldn't call them loons. There's a certain segment of the pundit class and bloggers who portray Obama as week no matter what he does (he's being portrayed as weak by them this week for Clinton's successful trip to free the journalists in NoKo).

mantis

Ha, haahahahahahahahaha.

So what, you find it unbelievable that Obama Sr.'s Kenyan father was angry his son, who was already married to a Kenyan woman, had married and fathered a child with a white American? Or is just that Obama wrote, so it must be a lie?

Who knows why 18 year olds do anything? Maybe she took a summer job to save up for the trip?

Are you saying that it is likely they took the trip when she was 9-months pregnant as opposed to 7, because 18 year olds do things for strange reasons? I still find it pretty damned unlikely. Dunham may have been adventurous, but giving birth in a third-world African colony in 1961 doesn't sound like something even adventurous 18-year olds would do.

PeterUK.

"A piece of paper bearing the offical seal and stamp of the state of Hawaii. A piece of paper that is legal evidence of its contents in every court in the United States".

You are not getting it are you Geek? You could have a piece of papyrus from 1479 BC with the Stamp and Seal of Tuthmoses III,but it still doesn't make you a bleedin' Pharoah!

sam

" Was the State Dept a 'true believer' when it issued Obama a passport? "

Are you really this dense? State Department issues passports to whoever has US citizenship. It does not care where somebody is born.

I was born overseas, and went through naturalization in mod-90's. I did not have a birth certificate, so submitted affidavits from my parents (and an uncle) about my date and place of birth.

I could have submitted any date or place, and that would become my official record.

Pofarmer

"How about the people who granted him a security clearance?"

When did he get a security clearance?

mantis

When did he get a security clearance?

Likely in 2004, when he became a US Senator.

sunzeneise

I'm not up-to-speed on all of this, but the question occurs to me to ask what is the documentation (passport, visa, immigration, etc.) on the whereabouts of his mother on the the alleged date of birth?

Pofarmer

And, considering that the only people complaining are ultra-partisan cranks to begin with . . .

Lou Dobbs is an ultra-partisan crank? Really? CNN is part of the vast right wing conspiracy?

"Dunham may have been adventurous, but giving birth in a third-world African colony in 1961 doesn't sound like something even adventurous 18-year olds would do."

Adventurous 18 year olds don't think.

Hell, Maybe Barack Obama Sr. WANTED him born in his native coutry? Ever think of that?

mantis

Oops, technically he became a US Senator in 2005. Don't know when they do the security clearances, exactly.

mantis

Adventurous 18 year olds don't think.

If you say so, then it must be true.

Hell, Maybe Barack Obama Sr. WANTED him born in his native coutry? Ever think of that?

Sure, but why would she agree? Oh right, 18-year olds don't think. Your airtight analysis has convinced me he was born in Kenya.

Pofarmer

My understanding is that Senators normally get clearance by fact of them being elected. I think that's true for all but the most high security information, and Obama wasn't on any committees that dealt with that kind of stuff. Being elected is an automatic security clearance.

sam

And, regarding security clearances, you don't even know what kind or level of security clearance he got whenever he got one.

BumperStickerist

fyi -

security clearances are differentiated and have distinctions.

The basic issue has to do with the source of the intelligence information. Barack could have a Top Secret clearance, but would not have access to the sources of information which comprised the report.

If that doesn't make sense to you, you probably never had a TS-SCI clearance.

or a need to know.

sam

And, regarding security clearances, you don't even know what kind or level of security clearance he got whenever he got one.

Pofarmer

"Your airtight analysis has convinced me he was born in Kenya."

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm simply pointing out it's rather hard to assess motivations nearly 50 years ago when nearly everyone involved is deceased.

PeterUK.

"Dunham may have been adventurous, but giving birth in a third-world African colony in 1961 doesn't sound like something even adventurous 18-year olds would do."

She was adventurous enough,as a middle class teenage white girl in the 1960s, to get pregnant by an African. You have no idea how adventurous that was.

mantis

I'm simply pointing out it's rather hard to assess motivations nearly 50 years ago when nearly everyone involved is deceased.

I agree, which is why I was speculating as to the likelihood of a trip to Kenya during that timeframe. You seem to be disagreeing with my assessment that it is unlikely, because 18-year olds are whimsical (I agree, and still find it very unlikely). I may be misreading what you are saying, though.

clarice

"You are not getting it are you Geek? You could have a piece of papyrus from 1479 BC with the Stamp and Seal of Tuthmoses III,but it still doesn't make you a bleedin' Pharoah!"

DAMN! I got taken again. Still, PUK, I;s prefer you keep calling me Nefertiti.

The details

As detailed at my name's link, Koppelman is lying in "Myth #1". If anyone wants to do something effective, force Koppelman to either provide a credible source (Weigel is definitely not credible) or print a correction.

That's the way to deal with this issue that few others are pursuing: point out the many MSM lies about this issue and force them to do real reporting. (And, by lies, I mean factual errors, not just disagreements, speculation, etc.)

Foo Bar

If Obama's mother had left the country prior to Obama being born, could there be evidence of that trip (e.g. an airline manifest) which persists to this day ? Maybe birthers would be better off investing their energies in obtaining such evidence.

Porchlight

If the goal of a Kenya trip was to introduce Ann to the family, it would actually make more sense to plan the birth in Kenya. It would have been the only way to have Obama's family meet both Ann and Barack Jr. and still allow Barack Sr. to get back to HI in time to start classes in the fall.

Like I said I don't think this is likely, but it does provide a motive for a possible trip to Kenya in summer 1961.

mantis

She was adventurous enough,as a middle class teenage white girl in the 1960s, to get pregnant by an African. You have no idea how adventurous that was.

I do know how adventurous that was, but that's more a question of societal norms and culture, and it's something that can be the result of a poorly thought out action (as many pregnancies are). A trip to Kenya by a pregnant woman in 1961 is a question of safety and hygiene, and one that takes some planning, leaving time to reconsider.

verner

Let's add, his campaign LIED and said that the Long Form was no longer available.

Liar Liar Liar.

Captain Hate

He has to run interference and explain why the 50% of the Republican base that is crazier than Tom Cruise on a couch isn't the bunch of racist nutjobs they plainly appear to be.

At least they're smart enough not to fuck up the font for the rest of the page by posting twice in italics, you simple dickmitten.

Semanticleo

I totally agree with mantis. Pregnant women aren't allowed to fly, which is also how we know that Trig isn't really Sarah Palin's son.

Frau Skeptisch

---When did he get a security clearance?
---Likely in 2004, when he became a US Senator.

"Likely" - Is it a fact that every person in Congress is given a security check? Obama was already running for president. Axelrod had started in 2003 to document the rise of his Chicago politician and has tightly controlled information. Executive Order 13489 just continued the tight control.


Geek, Esq.

You are not getting it are you Geek? You could have a piece of papyrus from 1479 BC with the Stamp and Seal of Tuthmoses III,but it still doesn't make you a bleedin' Pharoah!
The papyrus isn't deemed by Hawaii statute as legal proof of its contents and endorsed by a live human being.

RichatUF

mantis-

Obama is doing that all by himself. What did he think would happen when he released well over 100 Iranian terrorists in Iraqi jails to spring an American journalist who had happened to live in Iran for 5 years? When he apologized to the Islamist world in Cairo? Apologized to the Russians for winning the Cold War?

mantis

Let's add, his campaign LIED and said that the Long Form was no longer available.

It is no longer available

mantis

"Likely" - Is it a fact that every person in Congress is given a security check?

Actually, since I left that comment I looked into it a bit and no, I don't think so. I think all you have to do is get elected.

Parking Lot

((And, considering that the only people complaining are ultra-partisan cranks to begin with .))

say the ultra partisan cranks who needed a nonbinding Senate resolution to establish that a high profile Republican senator, born of a well known American naval family, after 50 years of open book service to the country, was eligible to run for president

Sara (Pal2Pal)

For the third time, I make the point that Stanley Ann Dunham was a minor in 1961. Age of majority was 21. She could not have arranged anything as a minor. She couldn't enter into any contracts, get medical care, or even enter college without a parent or guardian signing for her. Where is this paper trail?

Semanticleo

I like your style, mantis... post a lie, defend the lie, and then after your lie has been debunked, actually look at the facts to see whether you had a clue about what you were talking about.

My imaginary son favors that style of argumentation as well.

mantis

I like your style, mantis... post a lie, defend the lie, and then after your lie has been debunked

What lie did I post? When did I defend it? Who debunked it?

Parking Lot

Why did Ann Dunham have to 'promise' her parents that she would go and live in Kenya when her education was completed? Almost sounds like the parents didn't want her around for some reason.

Semanticleo

That's good, mantis, pretend you never tried the "but he has a security clearance!" tack.

My imaginary son applauds your reality-denying ability.

Also, keep pushing that "pregnant ladies can't fly" idea -- it worked for the demented Trig-truther Andrew Sullivan, it'll work for you too.

Original MikeS

I have to believe that the President has very good reasons for being so evasive and secretive about his private life. I don't want to abuse his right to privacy, but I can't help being interested since his life, his family and his friends are so different from my own.

His behavior in this matter is also different from what I would do if I were in his shoes. The President has CHOSEN not to release his college transcripts, his long form BC, and a host of other information about himself, but I'm sure he has a good reasons.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Why did Ann Dunham have to 'promise' her parents that she would go and live in Kenya when her education was completed? Almost sounds like the parents didn't want her around for some reason.

C'mon, it was 1961. White daughter, black illegitimate grandson. They couldn't get rid of her fast enough. Middle class girls having babies out of wedlock were not well accepted back then, add in the mixed race and she would have been ruined socially and so would her grandparents.

Danube of Thought

I had not previously read the 1898 Supreme Court case of United States v. Wong Kim Ark.
I just finished reading it in its entirety, and in my view it is absolutely dispositive on the meaning of "natural-born citizen" in Article II of the constitution.

It means "citizen at birth," and that status applies to, among other categories, persons born on American soil, regardless of whether one or even both parents were aliens.

Go read it.

Porchlight

Parking Lot, I think it meant she promised her parents that she wouldn't go to Kenya *until* her education was complete.

Sara, that is a great point. The Dunhams would have had to arrange everything for her at that point.

fdcol63

If money was a problem for an 18-year student with a newborn, why did she decide to transfer to U. of Washington, where she probably had to pay higher tuition as an out of state student?

And where she couldn't live with her parents?

fdcol63

18-year old student

mantis

That's good, mantis, pretend you never tried the "but he has a security clearance!" tack.

Do you not understand the word "likely?" Does it, for you, signify a sense of certainty in the mind of the speaker, or does it leave open the possibility of unintentional error?

Also, keep pushing that "pregnant ladies can't fly" idea -- it worked for the demented Trig-truther Andrew Sullivan, it'll work for you too.

I have never pushed any such idea.

Do you not know how to read, or is it just your M.O. to purposely misrepresent people's arguments?

fdcol63

Sara,

Your comment seems to conflict with the story of the association/friendship between Ann's father and FMD, and Stanley Armour's alleged "tolerance" and "open-mindedness" where race is concerned.

clarice

Taranto has a good discussion on that today DoT

Danube of Thought

Given what we think we know about the state of Obama's parents' marriage at the time he was born, and the apparent lack of interest in the child on the part of the father, what reason do we have to think that Stanley feared a custody battle?

Parking Lot

((C'mon, it was 1961. White daughter, black illegitimate grandson. They couldn't get rid of her fast enough. Middle class girls having babies out of wedlock were not well accepted back then, add in the mixed race and she would have been ruined socially and so would her grandparents. ))

What do you think would have been more socially acceptable in those times? a mixed race kid born in or out of wedlock? Shotgun marriage, perhaps?

The social mores of the time do explain why she and the infant disappeared so quickly to Washington after the baby was born. Wonder what the baby's dad thought about that.

Parking Lot

((Your comment seems to conflict with the story of the association/friendship between Ann's father and FMD, and Stanley Armour's alleged "tolerance" and "open-mindedness" where race is concerned.))

0 himself said granny was afraid of black men, did he not?

Mark O

I think later today I'll sit back and read some 1898 Supreme Court cases. I haven't done that in weeks.

What have we become?

Richard Aubrey

I believe I said it:
The Kenyan forgery--which it probably is--is being used to discredit entirely independent issues and questions.
Maybe it got ginned up for that reason. Maybe not.
But it's having the effect.

fdcol63

"0 himself said granny was afraid of black men, did he not?"

I thought O said that he was told that by his grandfather, referencing granny?

clarice

Yes, but the example he gave was awfully weak. I fon't think we can make assumprions aboutwhat they thought or what the social mores were in their class in Hawaii almost 50 years ago. As far as I can tel they loved and took after The Won with open hearts.

Danube of Thought

Thanks, Clarice--I just read Taranto. He discusses the holding of the case (that a child born of aliens on US soil is a citizen), but in the opinion there is a lengthy discussion of "natural-born" and the analysis appropriate to determine its meaning.

In short form, the Court says we have to look to English common law, and that English common law clearly considers those born on British soil to be natural-born British subjects from birth. The opinion leaves very little doubt as to the reasoning a modern Court would follow if presented with the issue of presidential eligibility.

PeterUK.

"I do know how adventurous that was, but that's more a question of societal norms and culture"

Well I do! Going against the societal norms and culture is extremely adventurous.
Teenage pregnancy amongst the middle classes in the 1960s was adventurous.Intercourse between the races was adventurous,even the daughter of lefty swinger parents would be adventurous doing that.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Your comment seems to conflict with the story of the association/friendship between Ann's father and FMD, and Stanley Armour's alleged "tolerance" and "open-mindedness" where race is concerned.

Doesn't matter how open-minded they were, they still had to live and work within the society norms at the time. They had a minor daughter with an illegitimate pregnancy. Ask anyone who was a teenager back then how damaging that would be. Girls were sent away out of sight, all kinds of actions were taken to prevent knowledge getting out. The race issue adds in a double whammy, but I'll bet it was secondary to the illegitimacy. And in Stanley Ann's case, there is then the added bigamy of BO Sr.

She was already 3 mo. pregnant when the so-called sham marriage took place. She was a minor. Gramps and Grandma orchestrated it, they would have had to since Stanley Ann would not have been able to without parental or guardian consent.

A friend of mine married her high school boyfriend, but before that could happen, her parents did everything to prevent them from being together.

He was 2 years older and had gone off to William and Mary College in VA. She followed him to the same school 2 yrs later. When her parents found out that he was a student also, they informed the school that she did not have parental consent to see this guy and the school made sure the parents' wishes were followed to the best of their ability. He was barred from her dorm, etc.

Bottom line, on the morning of her 21st birthday, the couple ran off and got married. He had already graduated, she graduated 2 weeks later and made the announcement the same day.

When I started college in '63, I couldn't leave the dorm during non-class/library hours unless my Mother signed a permission slip for me. I couldn't have a car on campus or live off campus as long as I was under 21. There were two types of permission forms, one that was good for the whole semester or one good for one event at a time. My Mother signed mine good for the whole semester, my roommate had to get one from her parents one at a time and it drove her crazy.

clarice

It's true most schools had parietals but the WND article indicates that the under 21 "married" Stanley Anne did not live in a dorm but had an apt..So married students were exempt, her parents spcifically approved it OR there were no parietal rules at the U of W then.

PeterUK.

"The papyrus isn't deemed by Hawaii statute as legal proof of its contents and endorsed by a live human being."

Papyrus was used on legal documents before the inhabitants of Hawaii rowed across the Pacific.
You some kind of Papyrusist?

Porchlight

Let me repost the original quote from the WND interview:

When asked why Dunham left her husband in Hawaii to come to Seattle with her infant son, Toutonghi explained Dunham told her that she and the baby would be going to Kenya when she finished her education, as she had promised her parents when she was married.

I could be wrong but I really think she meant she promised her parents she would finish college before heading off to Kenya.

I am pretty uncomfortable with the idea that the Dunhams banished Ann to Washington because she had a mixed-race child. It's true that it's hard to imagine *why* she was there, but nothing we know about them suggests that was a motive. They took in Barack just a few years later and gave every appearance of loving and accepting him.

PeterUK.

Obama can recite the Muslim call to prayer because he lived in Indonesia. Why can't he play the ukulele?

Parking Lot

((I thought O said that he was told that by his grandfather, referencing granny?))

In "Dreams of My Father" yes.

In his March 18, 2008 speech on race, no:


((I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him [Rev. Wright] than I can my white grandmother -- a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe.))

Sue

I will tell you unequivocally that if you get a short form birth certificate of a child adopted from say, China, from the State of Texas, it will indeed be a Texas issued BC but the place of birth will be listed as China.

Sue

And if you adopt a child from another state, the new BC will say the child was born in the actual place the child was born, not Texas.

bad

O/T Cornyn regarding the new snitch policy in the WH:

"I am not aware of any precedent for a President asking American citizens to report their fellow citizens to the White House for pure political speech that is deemed 'fishy' or otherwise inimical to the White House’s political interests," Corynyn wrote. "By requesting that citizens send 'fishy' emails to the White House, it is inevitable that the names, email addresses, IP addresses, and private speech of U.S. citizens will be reported to the White House."

LUN


ben

Mantis has already talked himself blue in the face trying to explain the unexplainable, but the central issue remains that a thousand obfuscating, parsing, smoke and mirror, quibbling, and evasive posts don't resolve. If there is nothing in the long form that Obama does not want released, why not release it?

Porchlight

Go Cornyn!

clarice

(a) They had lived in Seattle before moving to Hawaii and had some friends and support there.
(b)I expect at the time and roday that was a better school with a better series of course offerings than was available on Hawaii.

bad

Another O/T Sasha and Malia used in a non-profit add. Fireworks predicted from the presidebt 'cause families are off limits, donchyano.

LUN

Original MikeS

If there is nothing in the long form that Obama does not want released, why not release it?

Obama has reasons for wanting to keep these things private, and he is keeping those reasons private for the same reasons.

required

to cave in to the Birthers' demands now would legitimize them

Better to cave in to demands from Arab, Iranian, Korean, and Latin American dictatorships. Obama prefers tyrants to American citizens.

Bill in AZ

Re: Obama's snitch site:
Somehow I got on barackobama.com's email list which emails current Zero propaganda a couple of times a week. I've started forwarding them to flag@whitehouse.gov with "This looks fishy - please investigate this group"

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