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August 04, 2009

Comments

Robert Mugabe

That doesn't make it authentic of course, nor do I think that it is; it just means it is not an obviously and immediately dumb fake."

Not 'obviously' nor 'immediately' fake, just
'authentically' fake.

I see your point.

Appalled

I think we're done here.

On to the next theory. Because there will be one, as long as there are folks who desperately want to find a way to believe that they owe no allegiance to this President.

I got to say, this desparate search for a Presidential lack of legitimacy is not healthy for a democracy.

verner

I'm starting to agree with those who said that this birth certificate stuff is starting to look like the Niger forgeries. In other words, make it such a bad forgery that it's easily discredited by Obama friendly sources.

Now, what foreign intelligence service/political entity would want to discredit evidence about the circumstances of Obama's birth?

KJ

Has anyone, anywhere, come up with any reason to believe Obama wasn't born in the U.S.? I have yet to see anything that would make me even wonder. It seems to me that there is no more evidence that Obama was born elsewhere than Biden being born in some other country. Shouldn't we have a standard before pursuing bizarre conspiracies, that at least some minor shred of evidence exists. Sure, it is plausible that Obama was born in Kenya, but it seems to me that plausibility has never been a standard for investigation of anything. It's plausible that I was stolen from the circus as a child, but I've never bothered to investigate such a plausibility.

So is there even one shred of evidence that warrants an investigation by anyone who's not crazy? I guess I'm saying Macguire is crazy for spending brain cells on this. It's the same thoughts I had when Sullivan kept chasing the Trig is not Palin's kid story. It was plausible but there was no evidence, unless you call lack of many photos of Palin being obviously pregnant evidence.

And if this is an intellectual exercise, I'm sure there are better things to exercise on.

Cecil Turner

Because there will be one, as long as there are folks who desperately want to find a way to believe that they owe no allegiance to this President.

"Allegiance" to a president? Since when? Taken your personal loyalty oath yet? Even if we hadn't just lived through the last 8 years, this would be laughable nonsense.

On a similar note of the obvious double standard, we have Earl Ofari Hutchinson, some sort of semi-official race-baiter in LA:

"We have issued a public challenge to the person or group that put up the poster to come forth and publicly tell why they have used this offensive depiction to ridicule President Obama."

verner

Sorry Appalled, but Obama is illegitimate, as are all children born to bigamous marriages.

Jack

IMMINENT QUESTION:

What happens to Judge Sotomayor's confirmation as Supreme Court Justice if the Constitution's "natural born citizen" Presidential eligibility requirement is subsequently determined applicable to Barack Obama on the basis of Article 2's exclusion of dual citizenship birth (doesn't matter whether Obama born in Hawaii since his dad was British citizen at the time)? It would seem prudent, if not dereliction of Constitutional duty in not so doing, for the United States Senate to defer voting on Judge Sotomayor's confirmation at the very least until there is determination, now imminent, on standing in Kerchner v. Congress (USDC NJ) on that precise issue (Congressional failure to take up the raised and known constitutional ineligibility question prior to declaring a Presidential winner in the vote of the electoral college). For the full Senate now to proceed to vote to confirm Judge Sotomayor (an otherwise lifetime appointment) before then, would be a knowing and very substantial exacerbation of any inherent Constitutional crisis -- compounding the previous Congressional dereliction. That is, the Executive Branch, as well as conceivably all actions of a Congress under a President determined ineligible, would leave the Supreme Court as an essential unfettered remaining Branch of the Federal Government, that is unfettered so long as Mr. Obama's nominee is not yet confirmed by the Senate.

Will not one Senator, let alone Republican Senator, raise this issue on the Senate floor? The nation is watching.

peter

Will not one Senator, let alone Republican Senator, raise this issue on the Senate floor? The nation is watching.

Jack, I think the chances of that occurring are only slightly greater than the CBS evening news with Katie Couric leading off tonight's program with the nude pictures of Stanley Dunham.

Jack is Back!

Jack, the nation may be watching but it is watching this idiotic search for something that is both irrelevant and distracting. What the hell are we doing obsessed with a freeking birth certificate as if Obama was an ET instead of the creepy marxist that he is. The danger is in being distracted from the most dangerous legislature we have ever had in this country (even though I am in Belgium and you don't want to be like this country politically). We need to focus on where we are headed and what the stakes are (which are very high). Whether he is Roy Obama or Barack Obama or Barry Soetero or even one of the Irish Bomford's - who cares as long as we stop this mad rush to neuter our great country and its republic. I would rather we start debating the consequences of having Sonia Sotomayor as a member of the Supremes based on HER background, life history and judicial temperament than whether Obama is a citizen or not.

Fresh Air

Frankly, I don't see any distraction. We can engage in mad conspiracy theories and despise the son of a bitch at the same time. Does it look like the people going to all these town halls to give their Congresscritters hell over Kill Granny are distracted?

Dave (in MA)

Here is a post from last year that demonstrates that The Dark Knight Joker's Gotham City and Obama's Chicago are one and the same.

hit and run

TM:
However, the Bomford certificate reports a birth on April 10, 1959 which was registered on Saturday April 11, 1959. Two forgeries? Props to MJW for that fine catch.

If we are to give proper props to MJW, it is necessary to work magic over typepad comment links because of the pagination.

The proper link for the http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2009/08/while-we-await-a-full-forensic-evaluation.html/comments/page/3/#comment-6a00d83451b2aa69e20120a51b6f23970c>proper props for MJW

Appalled

CT:

To put this simply -- this birth thing is an attept for folks to click their ruby shoes together and make the idea of a legitimate President Obama go away.

This trick of the mind is hardly unique to the right. As you point out, we got eight years worth of it from the left during the late, lamented administration.

I'll hold to my point -- this isn't really healthy. Though given all the idiotic things people have assumed over the years about this or that conspiracy, our democracy will survive.

centralcal

Hit! Glad you're back. We missed you.

Danube of Thought

ANSWER TO IMMINENT QUESTION:

Nothing.

narciso

Yes and they succeeded in part in portraying
the Iraq War vet as some kind of violent malcontent and the war as a crime, or at least some horrid fiasco, the DHS memoplays into that. To undermine the legitimacy of the Presidency, rewriting history. We don't want to dwell on the details of last fall's campaign, but lies, cretinous and vicious work. I guess I'm a little appalled at that.

CJ

CT, et al,
It really isn't healthy for who? You? I understand that to admit you were duped would damage your self-esteem so I assume you are speaking for yourself. I DO want our representatives to follow the Constitution on eligibility requirements because, wait for it, IT IS THE LAW. I would want the same thing if it were any Republican or Independent candidate. I am not that into party affiliations but believe in our Constitution.

Danube of Thought

The fact that Obama may have had dual citizenship under Kenyan law does not affect his status under American law. Kenya could declare that all persons born in California are Kenyan citizens if it chose to do so. That would have no effect on Californians' citizenship under US law.

Cecil Turner

To put this simply -- this birth thing is an attept for folks to click their ruby shoes together and make the idea of a legitimate President Obama go away.

In favor of a President Biden? This is nonsense. You lump together millions of Americans, all of whom have a slightly different take on things, and make a ridiculous generalization. President Obama is legitimate in carrying out his Constitutional duties, and to the extent he can use the bully pulpit to persuade others (most notably Congress) . . . an influence that is thankfully waning rapidly. His ridiculously obscure background (despite having two autobiographies detailing no real accomplishments) fairly begs for some sunlight.

I'll hold to my point -- this isn't really healthy.

What isn't healthy--besides the obvious: hijacking of our government by left-wing ideologues masquerading as moderates--is the lack of any check or balance with a completely complicit Congress, federal bureaucracy, and press. Toss in the dangerous notion that he's somehow above criticism (or that criticism of him personally is unpatriotic), and even the dangerously stupid economic policies begin to look rather benign. But the mere suggestion that the people work for this guy, rather than the other way 'round, leaves me speechless. I vaguely recall some past liberal whinging about concentation of power . . . but it's demonstrably just partisan noise, as they ignore (and even applaud) far more egregious overreaches when it's their guy in charge.

boris

Fretting over BC distraction seems much sillier than indulging a little conspiracy fun. Who cares if some blog commenters are bordering on "unruly"? Really. C'mon.

If all America needed was a few more senible moderates to rescue the country ... then "SO GROW UP ALREADY and ACT NORMAL FER CRISSAKE!" would be understandable.

If America was dangerously close to violent insurrection and the slightest hint of demogogery could spark a conflagration ...

... GMAFB ...

Dr. Weevil

Jeez, doesn't anyone remember how British money worked before decimalization? "7s 6d" is not a "a standard form identifier", it's almost certainly a price, namely the standard abbreviation for 7 shillings and 6 pence.

With 20 shillings in a pound and 12 pence in a shilling, '7 and 6' is 3/8 of a pound. The pound was worth U.S. $2.80 in 1961, so "7s 6d" is U.S. $1.05. Would that be a reasonable price for an official copy of a birth certificate in the British empire in 1961? It certainly seems to be in the ballpark. According to the inflation calculator here, $1.05 in 1961 is equivalent to $7.48 in 2008 (the last available year). A contemporary birth certificate would probably cost a bit more than that (I just paid $10 and $12 for college transcripts), but I suspect that government forms have a higher inflation rate than most things. In any case, 7s 6d was quite a lot of money for the average Kenyan in 1961.

Tom Maguire

Has anyone, anywhere, come up with any reason to believe Obama wasn't born in the U.S.? I have yet to see anything that would make me even wonder.

I would guess that curiousity is sparked by the obvious cover-up of the biography of a guy who essentially campaigned on the basis of his biography and historic complexion.

No college transcripts, no college essays, no law review articles, no acquaintances from Columbia, no back story on how he got himself into Pakistan - and oh yeah, his office will do everything to fight these "crazy" birth rumors except ask the State of Hawaii to release the underlying documents on which their summary certificate is based.

It's not like we didn't see this with John Kerry or John Edwards. Or, reaching back, Hillary's mysterious Rose Law firm billing records that were lost until they were mysteriously found.

PeterUK.

"It's plausible that I was stolen from the circus as a child, but I've never bothered to investigate such a plausibility."

Do you get irresistible urges to wear baggy pants and pour water down them? Is every day a "red nose day".Do you paint a smile on your face,even on Mondays?
Do you find yourself doing this?

Pofarmer

Wouldn't it be refreshing, if before the usual suspects start villify "birthers" saying that nothing would appease them, that TOTUS released the BC and then we see what happens? Best guess is that there is something on there that would fuel further speculation. It's sort of odd to be wondering this much information about the man leading the most honest and transparent administration EVAH.

PD

Has anyone, anywhere, come up with any reason to believe Obama wasn't born in the U.S.? I have yet to see anything that would make me even wonder.

I imagine he was probably born in Hawaii. But Obama's own action, or in this case non-action of providing the one piece of documentary evidence that would lay it all to rest, certain raises suspicion about "what's he hiding, anyway?"

PD

On to the next theory. Because there will be one, as long as there are folks who desperately want to find a way to believe that they owe no allegiance to this President.

I don't know what's desperate about wanting Constitionally-spelled-out requirements of qualification to be satisfied.

Perhaps you, like Bill Maher, want us to take it as an article of faith?

Martin

Since these are the guys who couldn't figure out Libby was lying, which even Bush's own lawyer confirmed (hence no pardon - as recently reported by Time), why should they be able to discern reality here?

Danube of Thought

I believe there are no law review articles because he didn't write any. Nor, so far as I am aware, was he published during his years at the U. of Chicago Law School. Quite remarkable, really.

PeterUK.

Dr Weevil.

Ah yes,the old £ s d,where a pint was a shilling and and bands like the Beatles went out for £10 a night!

Cecil Turner

So is there even one shred of evidence that warrants an investigation by anyone who's not crazy?

Fallacy: argumentum ad ignorantiam. Besides, it's customary for those claiming the positive to provide the evidence. (In this case, a verifiable birth certificate is the standard.)

clarice

Remember boys and girls, Martin is now on record as indicating "Bush's lawyer" is the final arbiter of who's lying and who's not. Makes life a lot simpler, doesn't it?

KJ

Okay, I got the answer I expected. You guys just think the guy is suspicious so he must be hiding something. But you still have zero evidence. And that's the larger point. With a standard that is only plausibility plus an unwillingness to debunk "theories", you have baseless conspiracy that has endless permutations. We saw a form of this in the Clinton years where the American Spectator would print any plausible crack-pot theory in the name of getting something to stick, e.g. Vince Foster murdered by Clintons. It's dirty political gamesmanship and its bad for the country. Palin shouldn't have to prove she is Trig's mom. Bush shouldn't have to prove he didn't have advance knowledge of 9/11. It's damaging. But take part if you must.

Pofarmer

I believe there are no law review articles because he didn't write any. Nor, so far as I am aware, was he published during his years at the U. of Chicago Law School. Quite remarkable, really.

Not if you're a totally unremarkable plant.

Who backed this guy?

Cecil Turner

But you still have zero evidence. And that's the larger point.

You still have a fallacy, and are apparently having a hard time recognizing it.

e.g. Vince Foster murdered by Clintons

Or that "salacious" blue dress. Oh, wait . . .

clarice

KJ--The Constitution defines the qualifications for President. My DMV lists the qualifications for getting a license. Does that mean I can refuse to provide any evidence and make the DMC or the citizens of DC prove I am unqualified for one?

The burden is Obama's. It should have been enforced at the State and electoral college level but no one did so. But that's another issue.

Danube of Thought

The certificate provided by Obama has been verified as accurate by the appropriate state officials.

Does anyone wonder why, in a nation brimming with highly talented, brilliant conservative and Republican lawyers, it falls to the likes of Phillip Berg and Orly Taitz to file these lawsuits?

Martin

Clarice- I didn't say Bush's lawyer was the final arbiter. My point is that reality is so clear that EVEN Bush's own lawyer acknowledges it, yet there are people, like YOU, who still believe Libby never lied.

Given those denial of reality powers, why should anybody think reality will convince you on this birth matter?

nobody special

But KJ, in neither of the two examples you cited is a constitutional eligibility issue at stake, as it is in this case.

Besides, this stuff is better than 24! :)

PeterUK.

A birth certificate simply registers a birth,there is no proof that the possessor of the BC is actually the same person whose birth was registered.
A BC is required to obtain a passport.It was not uncommon for a copy of the birth certificate of a deceased child to be obtained and a false passport gained by this method. All that was required is the right sex,location and age.
Similarly there are governments which hand out documentation for a consideration,back street documentation is as good as you can afford.
Why do you think governments are so keen to force us to have biometric ID cards? Because documentary ID isn't worth the paper it is written on.

Pofarmer

It's dirty political gamesmanship and its bad for the country.

Let me get this straight. Asking for a valid Birth Certificate with a known chain of custody is akin to believing that George Bush knew about 9/11????? Like boris said. GMAFB. Whether or not Sarah Palin is Trig Palin's mom has NOTHING to do with her qualifications for the office she was seeking, nothing, zip, nada, zero. Try again, skippy. There is nothing her to "debunk". Merely showing the damned certificate is all the "debunking" required. Honesty, openness, and all that.

Pofarmer

Don't know the guy running for POTUS history? No problem, vote for him anyway.

Don't know what's in the bill you're voting on that isn't fully written yet? No problem, vote for it anyway.

See the problem here?

KJ

Really Cecil. You are going to claim argumentum ad ignorantiam. That's a stretch. Maybe you murdered my cat Cecil. My cat is dead and its plausible that you murdered my cat. I'd like confirmation. By this standard, any attempt to demand evidence would simply be arguing from ignorance. And anyway, I'm not saying the premise that Obama was born in the U.S. is Absolutely True. It's plausible that he was not. But about as plausible as you having murdered my cat. There is as much evidence for either. Since there is no evidence, there should be no demand to prove otherwise.

And I'm still waiting for proof that Sarah Palin is Trig's mom.

royf

Well KJ there is the thing about all candidates for President in recent years have released most records pertaining to their past. Including G W Bush and John McCain. Now Kerry never released his complete military record but complied with most other things. But Obama has released essentially nothing. That is the reason he has been given the name Zero, a nickname which certainly fits.

Pofarmer

And, really, Fraud and deceipt is how Democracies end. There is plenty of reason to be vigilant.

PeterUK.

"The certificate provided by Obama has been verified as accurate by the appropriate state officials."

It only needed to be faked once. After that nobody would know the difference. Amazing how once a fake enters circulation it becomes self referential. "It's in the file,it must be genuine". Museums and collections are full of the bloody stuff.

Pofarmer

And I'm still waiting for proof that Sarah Palin is Trig's mom.

Why, what difference does it make?

Martin

"Merely showing the damned certificate is all the "debunking" required."

I would recommend against this. And Obama has already figured this out as well. It's simple really; the birther faction is easy to paint as kooky and can be used to divide the opposition, e.g. Maguire recently denounced a National Review editorial on the subject.

Given conservative proclivities, the intra-movement disputes are only going to get uglier, and Sarah Palin is going to run on a third party ticket.

What's not to like for Mr. Kenya?

PeterUK.

KJ Is your cat dead? Is this neglect on your behalf.Stop talking bollocks.
If it is plausible that Obama wasn't born in America then he should do everything to clear up the issue.

Cecil Turner

The certificate provided by Obama has been verified as accurate by the appropriate state officials.

News to me. I've seen various reports of officials saying they've seen the form, and that Obama was natural born, but that's not quite the same thing.

Cecil Turner

My point is that reality is so clear that EVEN Bush's own lawyer acknowledges it . . .

Does that mean if I can find a barking moonbat who thinks Obama is a socialist Kenyan . . .? Of course not. And if you engaged the brain for just a second, you'd see that for Bush to've pursued the Libby pardon would be personally quite difficult, and repudiate a long-standing policy against them in any but the most clear miscarriages of justice, and hence not really in his interest. His lawyer picks a position that supports his client. Your supposed "EVEN" just doesn't exist. Besides, the article isn't so clear cut, even if they'd managed to quote the right guy:

"You might disagree with the fact that the case had been brought and that prosecutorial discretion had been used in this way," says a source familiar with the review. "But the question of whether there had been materially misleading statements made by Scooter — on the facts, on the evidence, it was pretty clear." As far as Fielding was concerned, Libby had lied under oath. [emphasis added]
Anonymous source, paraphrased by the reporter. Pretend it's a statement critical of Obama or Clinton, then see how much weight you'd give to it.

Pofarmer

the birther faction is easy to paint as kooky and can be used to divide the opposition,

Unless it grows and increases the opposition. Remember, the whole thing was started by a pretty extreme Lib.

KJ

But why does Obama have to show his original Birth Certificate when we've never demanded the same from any other PResident? Can you explain this? Suddenly you guys are concerned with official birth certificates. You've been upset about this for decades I suppose and now see your opportunity to make things right. Maybe you actually are telling yourself this, I don't know, but it sounds pretty stupid to me.

And do you really want to put government in charge of confirming your birth. My grandfather can't leave the country because they lost his official birth certificate decades ago.

Still no evidence and no precedence of requiring an official birth certificate. If the Congress had passed this silly law in 2004 or something, you might have something to argue here, but nobody started caring until the "foreign" lookin' guy got elected. Funny how that works.

Cecil Turner

And anyway, I'm not saying the premise that Obama was born in the U.S. is Absolutely True.

Well, that's a problem, isn't it? Because last I checked, it's one of the three prerequisites (i.e., natural born, 35 years old, and 14 years resident) to be President.

Since there is no evidence, there should be no demand to prove otherwise.

Pretty low standard for compliance with the supreme law of the land, dontchathink?

sylvia

I think to figure out what Obama is hiding, we have to work backwards. The foremost issue he would be concerned about hiding would be something that affects his natural born status. In that case, it doesn't matter where he was born, so I don't think he would hide that. More likely with adoption and the fact that he might have had his US citizenship renounced later. Other than that, I can think of no other natural born issues.

The second case would be embarrasment about his father, and his father not being who Obama said he was. Not that that would be something we could hold against them, a lot of mothers have lied to their kids about Dad. The only way it might be embarrassing to Obama is if he found out dad wasn't Obama Sr and he wrote that book about his Kenyan father anyway.

Although that he could explain that he grew up thinking Obama Sr was his dad even if he wasn't etc, and just didn't clarify it in the book. Or Obama's dad is a famous person, and Obama doesn't want us to know who he is.

The third issue is his real age. It is possible Dunham covered up his birth due to some scandal and got his birth certificate a year or two later. And perhaps if we saw the cert, some could figure out some hospital info is not accurate. Although this should not effect him politically at all.

The fourth is Obama is not really Obama and they kidnapped some small child and exchange him for The One so that he could grow up take over the Western World. And they are hiding the bc to cover that up. Okay I just saw the creepy movie Orphan. Maybe forget about the fourth possibility.

PD

You guys just think the guy is suspicious so he must be hiding something.

I would say it's more like, he appears to be hiding something because he won't provide the documentary evidence, *therefore* I am suspicious of him.

You have something against citizens having an interest in the president satisfying the qualification stated in the Constitution to be president?

Stephanie

and Sarah Palin is going to run on a third party ticket.

Can't have any speculation about birth certs but speculate away about the Alaskan's plans?

Consistency must be some unacknowledged sin for democrats...

Of course, it is hard to be consistent when you have no publishable central beliefs and everything must be cloaked in lies to keep the proles subdued til checkmate is at hand.

PeterUK.

"I would recommend against this. And Obama has already figured this out as well. It's simple really; the birther faction is easy to paint as kooky and can be used to divide the opposition,"

I recommend you read up about Richard III,to understand the real power of myths in politics. As Obama wanes in popularity,as he is,things like this gain more significance.A few false moves on American interests and people will start to look sideways at him.
The muddle aren't going to like the idea of a foreigner putting them out of work,fouling up the power supplies,or brown nosing some egregious dictator and this will come screaming back.
If it is a ployc,it stands up there with the Germans invading Russia without winter clothing.
Don't mess with myths.

Cecil Turner

And do you really want to put government in charge of confirming your birth.

If you're trying to convince everyone how sensible you are (in contrast with all those weirdos who don't understand why Obama's BC ought to be a state secret), I don't think this is really the way to go about it.

clarice

"My grandfather can't leave the country because they lost his official birth certificate decades ago"

Funny, my dad had no birth certificate but was able to use census, military and other records to establish his identity and obtain a passport. Either gramps wasn't trying very hard or you are just (MSU)Making Shit Up.

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

--I would recommend against this. And Obama has already figured this out as well. It's simple really; the birther faction is easy to paint as kooky and can be used to divide the opposition......What's not to like for Mr. Kenya?--

You mean all those speeches by Barry that he was post-racial and post-partisan and was not only tired of all the silly inter party gamesmanship but would, by God, end it once and for all, were.......what's the word I'm looking for............lies?

anon

nobody started caring about the part of the Constitution intended to prevent the foreign-born from serving as President until the "foreign" lookin' guy got elected.

That is mysterious.

it sounds pretty stupid to me.

Work on building a smarter straw man and get back to us.

Pofarmer

but nobody started caring until the "foreign" lookin' guy got elected.

Would that be the foreign looking guy with the Kenyan father and Indonesian citizenship?

Assholes.

There was a question about McCains elegibility and they had a hearing.

Obama?

Crickets.

Don't you find that at least a little interesting?

Pofarmer

Either gramps wasn't trying very hard or you are just (MSU)Making Shit Up.

I vote the later.

I don't have the original of my BC right now either. However, I do have an official copy of it, with all the t's crossed and i's dotted. No. Big. Deal. Cost $15.

Martin

Your denial reality powers are strong as well, Turner. A convicted felon who dropped his appeal. Yep. That's as innocent as they come.

Meanwhile, I'm loving how some moron 9Libby himself?) convinced Libby to drop his appeal, and he still didn't get the pardon! Had to be a double cross somewhere.

PeterUK.

Martin.
Do try and keep up,this thread is about the Pretender Barrack Hussein Obama,sole survivor of a long line of communists,chum of Hugo Chavez. Libby never had the code to the nuclear trigger Obama does.
Take your Ritalin like a good boy and stay on subject,otherwise you will turn back into the one with the lost son.

KJ

"KJ Is your cat dead? Is this neglect on your behalf.Stop talking bollocks.
If it is plausible that Obama wasn't born in America then he should do everything to clear up the issue."

Great now you know how I feel when people bring up Obama's birth. It's equally plausible, according to all available evidence, that Cecil murdered my cat and that Obama wasn't born in the U.S.

narciso

Actually he went into debt to the tune of a million dollars and he probably couldn't cover an appeal. Than again, seeing how we have discovered how DOJ has handled cases in Alaska, Florida, et al, I'm really not surprised

clarice

Maybe after his bills exceeded a $ million dollars and new $$ weren't flowing in he decided that a commuted sentence made his further impoverishment a harder risk to take.I would have. But Martin surely knows better--after all with a grandfather who can't figure out how to document his identity..Can the acorn fall far from the squirrel?

royf

Gee KJ do you live in a closet?

I lost my wallet about 10 or so years ago, It contained my Social Security Card. When I went to get a duplicate I had to supply my birth certificate. The government requires citizens to supply them for many, many reasons. That is why I think all you zerobots are misreading how this is playing in fly over land.

People aren't going to feel like zero is being picked on because some want him to show his BC. As a matter of fact the only poll I have seen said that something like 80% said he should show it. And if that weren't the case the state run media would be publishing polls non-stop about this issue, but they aren't are they? "Funny how that works".

Martin

Oh,and another thing Turner, re: "Anonymous source, paraphrased by the reporter."

How do these this direct quotes float your boat?:

Bush joked. Then he turned to Sharp. "What's the bottom line here? Did this guy lie or not?"

The lawyer, who had followed the case very closely, replied affirmatively.

Bush indicated that he had already come to that conclusion too.

"O.K., that's it," Bush said.


KJ

"Funny, my dad had no birth certificate but was able to use census, military and other records to establish his identity and obtain a passport. Either gramps wasn't trying very hard or you are just (MSU)Making Shit Up."

I'll answer this. He didn't try very hard. Not much of a traveler. But I guess he'll never be President.

Martin

narciso-please. The prisons are full of convicted felons filing pro se appeals, and Libby is (actually, was) a lawyer. Money wasn't the issue.

fdcol63

Interesting how the same people who refused to believe the authenticity of Bush's TANG documents are the same people now saying "trust us .... Obama's BC has been verified and validated."

Danube of Thought

Two Hawaii officials have stated that they have examined the original certificate and that the information on the certification conforms to it identically.

There is not a shred of evidence that he was born anywhere other than in Hawaii. And why on earth would Obama seek to have the certificate produced when instead he can just sit back and enjoy the clown show?

This issue is not hurting him one bit, folks. When Ann Coulter declares that the birthers are cranks, you know the birthers have a problem.

KJ

"As a matter of fact the only poll I have seen said that something like 80% said he should show it."

What's so funny about this nonsense is that he did show it: http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html. But it wasn't good enough. And his parents also planted a birth announcement. Show that 80% the fact check article and you are down to a few dead-enders who have trouble with reality. He's shown the damn thing, but it hasn't satisfied the conspiracy nuts.

royf

fdcol63

You got that right, I remember how the base which stores National Guard records was over run with lawyers and news organizations pouring over years of documents. Lawsuits were filed by AP, NYT and ACLU. Even after many people who served with President Bush released statements shooting down the AWOL rumors. I bet not one of the zero defenders here ever even read those witness statements.

narciso

As I recall, the jury foreman was a post editor under Woodward, who had received the tip from Armitage, one other member was posting on Empty Fire hydrant or whatever that thing is called. The Eckenrode notes,
the inability to actually

Stephanie

I'll answer this. He didn't try very hard. Not much of a traveler. But I guess he'll never be President.

But yet you presented his (Gramps) inability to show one as proof that Obama may not be able to, either. Instead it's a lesson of sloth as a virtue... Obama has many traits to be admired and used as teachable moments in common with gramps...

Cecil Turner

A convicted felon who dropped his appeal.

By now a broke convicted felon, convicted of obstructing justice by not remembering and admitting how he initiated the story by being "at the beginning of the chain of phone calls, the first official to disclose this information outside the government to a reporter." Oh hey, maybe there was a reason he couldn't remember that.

Meanwhile, our ex-President who claims to've forgotten oral sex (or that it wasn't sex, or what "is" is, depending on the excuse) remains a rich celebrity. Bush was out to lunch, Cheney correct: a pardon was the answer.

How do these this direct quotes float your boat?:

Direct quotes? Did you neglect to notice this bit, or just figured it wouldn't help your case:

While packing boxes in the upstairs residence, according to his associates . . . [emphasis added]

What's so funny about this nonsense is that he did show it:

Hilarious. They post an electronic copy, and allow someone else to examine the copy . . . and factcheck pretends it means something (and, even more laughably, calls the copy an "original")? Even my podunk college refused to accept hand-carried copies of transcripts . . . but somehow that one is supposed to be dispositive?

KJ

The Bush National Guard thing is another great example of this nonsense. There, we had liberals, like myself, looking for tangible evidence that Bush was a spoiled, cowardly, good for nothing, anti-American piece of shit. We felt that in our bones but wanted something tangible so it was pursued relentlessly without there really being any good evidence. And the hoopla ended up producing forgeries, just like this Birther nonsense did.

So now we have people who believe in their bones that Obama is this anti-American, socialist, commie, foreign looking, slimeball and they want something tangible.

It's all BS though and you all know it. It's weak and it's unhealthy. But at least it seems to help Obama by continuing to discredit the Republican Party and especially the South.

royf

Look KJ I don't care where Obama was born and really lean toward his birth being in Hawaii. But to say that allowing a single person (working for a supposed non partisan "fact check" organization) with a photographer to look at and photograph a document is the same as releasing it for complete and open scrutiny. Well sorry I don't buy that.

lurker9876

"But why does Obama have to show his original Birth Certificate when we've never demanded the same from any other PResident? Can you explain this? Suddenly you guys are concerned with official birth certificates. You've been upset about this for decades I suppose and now see your opportunity to make things right. Maybe you actually are telling yourself this, I don't know, but it sounds pretty stupid to me."

Ah but, Obama isn't the first US President whose birth was questioned.

Chester something.

Still don't know what those Hawaiian officials looked at. And should we believe them?

No.

fdcol63

Oh, I believe he was born in Hawaii. I just think his parents are listed as:

Mother: Dunham, Stanley Ann
Father: Davis, Frank Marshall

Obama's national political existence is founded on the narrative he advanced in his book "Dreams From My Father."

If this narrative is proved to be false, or at worst, a brazen lie, then what credibility does he have? What else about him or his life could be false?

Due to his adoption and convoluted family history, I'm quite willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt and believe that he wasn't aware of his true paternity at the time he wrote the book.

Like many children, he may have simply believed the story provided to him by his mother and grandparents.

But what if, at some point, he did find out ... and continued with the charade anyway because it was politically expedient or advantageous?

And if FMD were indeed his real father, what impact would that have on how most Americans think of Obama?

Cecil Turner

And the hoopla ended up producing forgeries, just like this Birther nonsense did.

Aired on national television, too. Funny, that. Meanwhile, the idea that Obama really ought to release his birth certificate (and college transcripts, SATs, LSATs, etc), if mentioned at all, is tied to a fringe conspiracy theory that has fewer adherents than the one that claims 9/11 was an inside job. And yet you're concerned about this one?

PD

But why does Obama have to show his original Birth Certificate when we've never demanded the same from any other PResident? Can you explain this?

That's a fair question, but lemme turn it around. Suppose McCain had been elected. Do you think there would not have been similar calls to produce a BC? I think there would have been, and for a similar reason: McCain and Obama both evidently have unusual birth circumstances.

I've no problem with any president having to produce a BC.

fdcol63

"So now we have people who believe in their bones that Obama is this anti-American, socialist, commie, foreign looking, slimeball and they want something tangible."

But unlike all you liberal BDS sufferers, we who doubt Obama's BC don't just have one thing like Dan Blather's "fake but accurate" TANG documents to base our beliefs on.

We have a lot of Obama's past words, deeds, legislative actions, and affiliations with sordid terrorists, anti-Americans, black separationist pastors, and community organising groups on which to base our opinions of Obama.

Frau Roggenbrot

I really don't think our presidebt was born in Kenya or that he could or should be removed despite the potential entertainment of a Pres.Joe. We can certainly multitask and keep our eye on the disastrous carp rolling out of the large intestine of this WH. The BC distraction can be the continuing irritation to Barry of those pesky gnats that keep flying up your nose and in your mouth when you're out for a pleasant hike. Consider it spitballs between the roar of the cannon and the flash of the pikes. If the Iranians "rigorous debate" was commendable, then ours is, too.

Obama campaigned and won on the basis of his judgment. It was his judgment that Americans should not see any record about his life, not even his kindergarten record! Let him live and deal with our distrust.

KJ

"But yet you presented his (Gramps) inability to show one as proof that Obama may not be able to, either. Instead it's a lesson of sloth as a virtue... Obama has many traits to be admired and used as teachable moments in common with gramps..."

wrong Stephanie. I made that comment to make the point that an official birth certificate is hardly a perfect way to prove citizenship and that there are many natural born citizens of this nation who could never produce them.

Anyway, a birth certificate has been produced and that birth certificate got Obama a passport. That's good enough by the reasonable standards we have employed up until this point for POTUS. Why we need to extend them to actual original birth certificates, I have no idea and neither do you or anyone else on this board or in the Birther movement.

royf

Well PD John McCain did release his birth certificate, and it was released without restrictions.

Martin

Good lord, Turner. "Help my case"? You are one dense person.

"According to his associates" means this is exactly way Bush wants the story told! And use these direct quotes if you please.

So yes, those are indeed direct quotes from Bush. And my my case doesn't need help. Neither does Fitzgerald's. Libby is a "broke convicted felon" (hooray!). Case closed. I just wish Cheney, Rove, and Bush would join him in that appellation.


PD

As a matter of fact the only poll I have seen said that something like 80% said he should show it.

That cannot be right. Why, just last night Bill O'Reilly told us that people don't care about it.

I actually like O'Reilly most of the time, but last night he was remarkably obtuse and determined to miss the points made by nearly all of his guests.

anon

So now we have people who believe in their bones that Obama is this anti-American, socialist, commie, foreign looking, slimeball

There's no reason to doubt any of that, but what does it have to do with his birth certificate?

KJ

"Meanwhile, the idea that Obama really ought to release his birth certificate (and college transcripts, SATs, LSATs, etc), if mentioned at all, is tied to a fringe conspiracy theory that has fewer adherents than the one that claims 9/11 was an inside job. And yet you're concerned about this one?"

I'm concerned about this one because I've never seen any major media take the 9/11 inside job one seriously. You can even post that on Daily Kos and it'll get shot down a million times in comments. Meanwhile, we have congresspeople actually pushing the Birther nonsense. This is a big difference. No nationally elected democrat ever even mentioned the 9/11 inside job scenario. And I always thought McGuire as a pretty level-headed conservative but I really don't believe that anymore after his recent posts.

PD

Well PD John McCain did release his birth certificate, and it was released without restrictions.

Yes, I know. I think there would have been calls from the left to see it again.

KJ

"That's a fair question, but lemme turn it around. Suppose McCain had been elected. Do you think there would not have been similar calls to produce a BC? I think there would have been, and for a similar reason: McCain and Obama both evidently have unusual birth circumstances."

I doubt it. It would be really stupid if McCain would be deemed ineligible to serve as POTUS because he was born in Panama while his father was serving. If some liberal tried to make hay out of that, they deservedly should be shot down. Similar to what should happen with the Birther nonsense.

PD

Meanwhile, we have congresspeople actually pushing the Birther nonsense.

Actually, I think you have them pushing the idea that the requirement in the Constitution should be explicitly satisfied, not assumed.

fdcol63

"No nationally elected democrat ever even mentioned the 9/11 inside job scenario."

I guess Dennis Kucinich doesn't count. LOL

cboldt

-- The certificate provided by Obama has been verified as accurate by the appropriate state officials. --


I read today that the relevant officials in the state of Hawaii were asked to confirm that the "short form" represented by the Obama camp in fact came from their operation, and that they haven't even confirmed THAT.


Could be more smoke by the birthers, but the confirmation rhetoric seems too "calibrated."

KJ

"We have a lot of Obama's past words, deeds, legislative actions, and affiliations with sordid terrorists, anti-Americans, black separationist pastors, and community organising groups on which to base our opinions of Obama."

This one made me laugh. Yes, because it was implausible to think that Daddy and Grandpa Bush used their connections to get their alcoholic son out of Vietnam and into a lax National Guard unit where he basically did nothing. Very implausible indeed. hehe.

Personally, the evidence is pretty overwhelming to me that Bush is more anti-American than Obama could ever attain, but this is why we subscribe to opposing ideologies and should probably stick to the more narrow topic.

royf

Sorry PD it wasn't clear from your post if you knew that he had released his BC.

And you are absolutely correct about what is being talked about by Congressmen now, Its not about Obama's BC but about establishing a system of verification in the future.

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