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August 02, 2010

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Rob Crawford

Yeah, but you're an anti-science moron if you point all that out.

Danube of Thought

Minus 17 at Raz today.

Facts?  Facts?  Don't confuse me; I know what I want.

The stem cell debate has been post normal science since the gitgo, and that is too bad.
==========

anduril

Huh. Not much interest here. Maybe it's time for another round of We Won The War In Iraq high-fiving: US watches from sidelines as Iraqi leadership unravels. Yeah, the US watches from the sidelines, while the rest of the Middle East is also watching. Who woulda guessed this result?

In the middle of last month, US military officials handed Iraq’s interior minister a large, gold-coloured key to mark the transfer of Camp Cropper, the last prison in Iraq under US control. “Now there is some rule of law,” one Iraqi official gushed at the ceremony.

But just five days later, four prisoners who were leaders of one of Iraq’s most violent insurgent groups escaped. Iraqi officials believe that the detainees, members of an al Qa’eda offshoot called the Islamic State of Iraq, were driven out of the prison by the new warden, who has also disappeared.

Naturally, this brazen prison break has embarrassed American and Iraqi officials. It also illustrates why the political paralysis in Iraq is becoming more dangerous and unstable. Eager to meet a deadline to withdraw US combat troops by the end of August, American military officials are handing over institutions while the Iraqi political system is in a state of disarray.

Nearly five months after the March 7 parliamentary elections, Iraqi leaders still cannot agree on who should lead the country. Both the prime minister Nouri al Maliki and his main rival, Iyad Allawi, the former premier whose coalition won the elections by two seats, insist that they have the right to form the next government. There is little sign of a breakthrough as the two leaders try to form alliances with other factions.

Meanwhile, the list of problems facing the new government continues to grow.

...

With Iran’s backing, this new alliance has claimed the right to form a government despite the fact that it was created after the election and is therefore in blatant disregard of the wishes of Iraqi voters. By joining the Shiite alliance, Mr al Maliki is trying to outmanoeuvre Mr Allawi, whose secular coalition attracted strong support among Iraq’s Sunni minority. Such backdoor tactics threaten to once again unleash the sectarian warfare that recently shattered Iraq.

It is also an indication of how far the United States has been sidelined in the political machinations of Iraq. With all US troops set to be gone by the end of 2011, the Obama administration has little leverage to force Iraqi leaders to pull their act together.

Eight years and vast amounts of treasure for this result? Thanks, neocons!

anduril

Terrific post from but not by Steve Sailer: The dogma of globalism.

narciso the harpoon

So is it evil or malice, that is the motive,
from billions spent on embryonic stem cells the global warming scam, to miseducation in
the math and science generally

PD

Look for the media and leftists to conflate this with embryonic stem-cell research and use the findings as support for the latter.

Danube of Thought

From Judge Hudson's decision refusing to dismiss Virginia's Obamacare lawsuit:

"While this case raises a host of complex constitutional issues, all seem to distill to the single question of whether or not Congress has the power to regulate -- and tax -- a citizen's decision not to participate in interstate commerce," Hudson wrote in a 32-page decision.

"Given the presence of some authority arguably supporting the theory underlying each side's position, this court cannot conclude at this stage that the complaint fails to state a cause of action," he wrote.

MarkO

Could this be a judge who actually follows the law? Is that too much to expect?

Jack is Back!

Anyone heard from daddy? Big cargo plane crash in Alaska but its a C-123 and I think daddy is a jet driver.

Jack is Back!

"While this case raises a host of complex constitutional issues, all seem to distill to the single question of whether or not Congress has the power to regulate -- and tax -- a citizen's decision not to participate in interstate commerce," Hudson wrote in a 32-page decision.

Pete Stark would disagree! LUN

hit and run

the Fairchild C-123 -- registered to All West Freight Inc. of Delta Junction, Alaska

Not daddy.

Chubby

In fact Daddy mentioned a recent crash in Alaska, perhaps that's the one he was talking about?

hit and run

Chubby:
In fact Daddy mentioned a recent crash in Alaska, perhaps that's the one he was talking about?

Seems to be a different one. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100802/ap_on_re_us/us_alaska_plane_crash>Sad.

The crash happened just four days after a military cargo plane crashed at Elmendorf Air Force Base in Anchorage, killing four people onboard.

The victims were Maj. Michael Freyholtz, 34, of Hines, Minn.; Maj. Aaron Malone, 36, of Anchorage; Capt. Jeffrey Hill, 31, of York, Pa., and Master Sgt. Thomas Cicardo, 47, of Anchorage. Cicardo was posthumously promoted to senior master sergeant Friday.

The four airmen were on a training mission Wednesday evening for a weekend air show at the Air Force base, which wrapped up Sunday. The C-17 crashed about a minute after taking off.

Captain Hate

Hold on a second; I thought if we had aborted a gazillion babies and used their stem cells that Christopher Reeve would be back playing Superman. You mean that wasn't true?

Chubby

thanks for the info hit and run ... sad beyond words

Rob Crawford

Hold on a second; I thought if we had aborted a gazillion babies and used their stem cells that Christopher Reeve would be back playing Superman. You mean that wasn't true?

No, it wasn't. The most you would end up with is a Shakey's Pizza.

Pagar

"You mean that wasn't true?"
Nothing that leftists tell you is ever true. The truth is not in them.

Walter

So the good news:

the Vatican announced it was funding adult stem cell research

About time, eh? And they are targeting a specific use:

the intestine at the University of Maryland

What--the armpit of New York was taken?

Rob Crawford

the intestine at the University of Maryland

Closest they could get to the colon of Washington, DC, I guess.

Danube of Thought

Discussion of Hudson's healthcare ruling at Volokh.

Clarice

Thanks, DoT. Running over there to look at it.
Do you realize how far and fast that b.s. bout the SCOTUS having exclusive jurisdiction over the AZ case got? Pheh

Va's AG as I noted on another thread-- said cops can ask arestees their immigration status BTW.

H

Also from Rasmussen: “48% Blame Obama for Bad Economy, 47% Blame Bush.”

Miss me yet.

narciso the harpoon

Good grief, not having embarassed himself enough yesterday, Bainbridge is on to defending the original verdict against Conrad
Black, using the report of Delaware Vice Chancellor, Leo Strine

Jack is back!

TM,

If the BP kill shot works, don't forget to change the header caption!

Ber

Andruil's temp today?

anduril

Heh. This is what happens when everyone's afraid of you.

cathyf

I have a question about the healthcare 1099 thingy... The rules that allowed the bill through as a reconciliation bill are limited to bills which do not increase the deficit, right? And the 1099 provision was necessary to get the even highly-cooked numbers to work, right? So would the bill be out of order and not passed if you remove any of the funding?

I have to say I think that the republicans should hold out for an all-or-nothing repeal. Don't let them reverse anything unless they repeal the entire bill. Every American understands "you made your bed now lie in it," and the entire corrupt process of procedural maneuvers that got us the bill needs to be shown for what it was.

"Full repeal now; we'll start over with the new Congress" should be the GOP campaign promise and the only "deal" on offer.

I am terribly afraid that the RINOs will allow Congress to systematically strip out the obnoxious clauses and the unconstitutional clauses, by repealing them one by one, and when it's all over, what we will have left is the outlawing of health insurance via the outlawing of the pre-existing condition exclusions.

Danube of Thought

Cathyf, the problem is that repeal is not possible until January of 2013. The only legislative tool available to the GOP is the purse string, assuming they capture the House. Meantime they can hope for relief from the judiciary.

Old Lurker

We can dream, Dot.

Repeal and overide the veto.

Is my face blue yet from holding my breath?

Danube of Thought

How many Dems do you expect to take part, OL? Are you expecting that the perpetually fraudulent Blue Dogs are actually going to do something for the first time?

I have a helpful hint for the GOP for the coming campaign: it's OK to talk about Rangel and Waters, but don't show their pictures--that would be racist, as we learned with Willie Horton.

cathyf

Repeal is possible if it's the only way to get rid of the extremely unpopular pieces of the bill. If the GOP holds firm (I know, I know) and filibusters any half measures, it might get them a veto-proof bipartisan majority. It would require hardball and nerves of steel, while what we've got is RINOs and nerves of Steele.

But imagine the slogans:

ONLY JACKASSES WANT HALF-ASSED

KEEP HEALTH INSURANCE LEGAL, VOTE REPUBLICAN.

lyle

OT, (but never fully OT for me):

"I think what's happened is Fareed, in the last six months I think there was an article even in the paper this week about people no longer blaming Bush. They're beginning to target this White House. That's a natural course of events as you go through any administration, but I don't think it is fair to the President," Sen. John Kerry (D-MA) said on CNN.

"The story hasn't been sufficiently told," Kerry added.

Just like your military service, jackass.

Am I wrong to wish this sub-cretin would just spontaneously combust?

Old Lurker

Hell, DoT, like Cathy, I wonder how many RINO's would play. Nibling around the edges is so much more civilized...

Old Lurker

"while what we've got is RINOs and nerves of Steele."

LOL

Neo

Newsweek sold for $1

Obvious, he thought he was buying a subscription

gmax

Lyle since Dante thought the 7th level of Hell was ice, the chances of Kerry spontaneously combusting are less than him freezing in hell for all the lies he has told.

gmax

This is the best the Washington Post could do? Whoa, newspeak was not worth much, perhaps even negative? Here from the press release:

The Washington Post Company retains the pension assets and liabilities and certain employee obligations arising prior to the sale. The resulting gain or loss at closing is not expected to be material to the financial position of The Washington Post Company.

gmax
The Post Co. did not release the sale price of Newsweek. The cash component of the purchase is minimal, but the total obligations taken on by Harman -- assuming leases, satisfying subscribers who have already paid to receive the magazine -- run into the tens of millions of dollars, according to a source close to the deal who spoke on condition of anonymity

This is the husband of a Democrat congressperson BTW.

Clue One; We Won.  And Obama's losing it.

Naw, anduril, just stunned that you want to blame the effect of Obama's neglect of Iraq on the previous administration. Afraid of you? Hah, afraid for your seat of reason.
=======================

Appalled

cathyf:

The 1099 rule is effective beginning in 2012 and all out repeal cannot happen until 2013. There is no reason to allow this stupid, stupid, stupid rule to stand for even one year just to garner a mythical extra vote for HC repeal in 2013. I doubt some Dem, otherwise in deep love with HCR, is going to say "well, I won't filibuster" just because of the 1099.

gmax

All out repeal can happen just as soon as enough legislators vote to override the veto, or even if a hungry for reelection President decides a veto or another in a long line of vetos is just too politically costly. Its false to say that Zero has to go, other outcomes are possible including scared straight Democrats voting with Republicans to repeal and start over.

lyle

Put me down as a "Levin."

A GOP majority in the House can slow this trainwreck down pretty fast by not funding all or parts of it.

gmax: eternal hell is still too good for that knob.

Thomas Collins

See LUN (via ZenPundit) for a thoughtful piece on the decline of an engaged citizenry in America. I thought the quote from Mark Safranski (describing an incipient oligarchy in America supported not only by liberals, but also by many conservatives) was especially interesting. I think the Tea Party is so reviled by our current oligarchs in large part because the Tea Party represents the challenge to the oligarchs of an engaged citizenry.

lyle

Oligarchs, huh.

This country was colonized by people less agrieved by the ruling class than they are now.

anduril

you want to blame the effect of Obama's neglect of Iraq on the previous administration.

Right--as if Iraq wasn't going to return to the dumper if McCain had been elected? The "Surge" was a temporary fix--we temporarily bought off the Sunnis. That was never going to be forever. And how many more years, how many more deaths, how much more tax payer money would it take for the mythical neocon approved happy ending in Iraq--the land of no happy endings? It didn't happen during the first two Bush terms--would it have happened in a third Bush term? A first McCain term? Dream on. Bush and Cheney screwed up big time. That doesn't mean Zero is doing better, but it's a lesson GOPers need to learn so they don't repeat the mistake in Iran--with even worse consequences. Or so they'll have the gumption to prevent Zero from starting his own huge mistaken war. America can't afford more of these wars, not financially nor economically nor morally. We have zero positive to show for the Iraq war, but plenty negative. America needs jobs and sanity at home, not pointless invasions and never ending occupations.

Thomas Collins

Maybe we are more aggrieved now by our oligarchs than the colonists were by their oligarchs, lyle. I'll leave that to others to debate. But the colonists weren't as emasculated by the culture of therapy as we are. That is my concern.

By the way, it probably has been discussed elsewhere at JOM and I missed it, but isn't it great that Sarah Barracuda called out Obama for having a low cojones reading?

matt

Anduril;

having analyzed the Surge and its components, I would disagree. The core issue within Iraq today is the sectarianism of the people and government. The Shiite majority has been busy oppressing the Sunnis. The Kurds in effect have their own mini-state.

The difference between McCain and Obama would have been an extended U.S. presence not so much in combat, as this functionally stopped 1 1/2 years ago, but as guarantors of the peace.Despite the rhetoric, the Iraqis trust us more than do their own people.

Now, we have a craven withdrawal for political reasons that every Iraqi knows means that the jockeying for position begins once again. The people in power are worse than scum in the way they graft and pander to their own special interests. Iraq's oil wealth is being stolen wholesale.

I am just waiting for the whole thing to ignite once again. Best outcome is a slow burn. Not quite Saigon redux, but once again an ignominious withdrawal.

narciso the harpoon

Yep TC, she's been practicing her kickboxing because that had to smart some. Rove on Fox & Friends was saying that was undignified, well
we saw how they took their lunch money.

I'm sad to note, that CK McLeod who wrote one of the more incisive essays in the aftermath
of her resignation, has gone in for an extra
round of clean togas, even more than Frum and
Bainbridge combined

You think they are just going away?

OK, I'll really drive you nuts, Anduril. With Iran the source of violent jihad, and KSA the source of quiet jihad, and both overflowing with unearned oil wealth, we, or someone, is eventually going to have to invade and take them over anyway, unless they miraculously change their ways. Who better than us?

And yes, I believe we'd still have more influence in Iraq if McCain had been elected. Obama can't contain his disdain for our success over there, and neither, interestingly, can you.

Do you want Saddam back? On the twentieth anniversary of his invasion of Kuwait, we have a winnuh.
=======================

Danube of Thought

I doubt some Dem, otherwise in deep love with HCR, is going to say "well, I won't filibuster" just because of the 1099.

Not sure I understand that statement. What Democrat is going to join a filibuster of what?

The world's new policeman.

Who better than us? OK, maybe the Chinese. They have a large thirst for oil, and plenty of blood.
===============

Clarice

For all the whining about the Reps, my recollection is not a single one voted for Obamacare. They should strip out the 1099 thing now--the Dems are desperate to do this before the people realize what this is--and hen move to repeal it, section by section if necessary.

narciso the harpoon

True, they did hold the line that's more than can be said of brave 'dissenters' like Webb
and Bayh. How was your week with the wolverine

Danube of Thought

Why not let the 1099 fiasco simmer for a year or two, so the people can get a more fulsome idea of what a great gift Obama and this congress have given them?

GOP up 46-38 on the new generic at Raz.

anduril

1. we, or someone, is eventually going to have to invade and take them over...Who better than us?

Whoa! You read it here first! The cat's out of the bag, and this is what the Neocons have in store for America. This is not what America needs right now. To cite just one reason, it would shut down at least half the world's economy, conservatively speaking.

Who better than America? Spoken like a truly demented Neocon.

2. I believe we'd still have more influence in Iraq if McCain had been elected.

Uh, what I said was: "Right--as if Iraq wasn't going to return to the dumper if McCain had been elected?" The only influence we have in Iraq comes out of the barrels of our guns--metaphorically speaking. Endless freaking occupation. That's matt's solution, and what good does it do us? We flush good money--or rather, borrowed money--down the toilet that could be better spent, if it had to be, at home, and we degrade our military for no clear advantage gained.

3. Do you want Saddam back? On the twentieth anniversary of his invasion of Kuwait, we have a winnuh.

That was a war that never had to happen. Saddam back? Yawn. Do I want the Saudis sitting on all that oil? Some things you have to--and can--learn to live with. America can't right all the wrongs in the world. Hell, we seem to be having a hard enough time getting our own act straightened out right here at home.

Clarice

Exhausting but great fun, narciso. Thanks for asking..
DoT Because with the 1099 provision out of there the pretend $16 billion in captured tax revenue is gone and even by the most generous of their own analyses the Dems cannot justify this huge expenditure.

cathyf
A GOP majority in the House can slow this trainwreck down pretty fast by not funding all or parts of it.
The locomotive of this trainwreck is the pre-existing conditions clause, which has nothing whatsoever to do with funding. Decoupling cars from the back of the train (1099 rules, medicare reimbursement limits, individual mandates) just lets the locomotive go faster.

I've said it before: they passed a bill which effectively outlaws health insurance. Their goal is that once there is no health insurance, the people will be so desperate that they will go lick the jackboots of their Democrat overlords and beg for whatever scraps of National Health Service they can get.

Danube of Thought

But they don't have to justify it anymore, Clarice--it has become law, and they simply couldn't care less what it costs.

Meanwhile, the madness continues (Wash. Times):


The man suspected of drunken driving and killing a Catholic nun in Prince William County this weekend is an illegal immigrant who was awaiting deportation and who federal immigration authorities had released pending further proceedings, police said Monday.

The man, Carlos Montano, a county resident, had been arrested by police twice before on drunk-driving charges, and on at least one of those occasions county police reported him to federal authorities.

"We have determined that he is in the country illegally. He has been arrested by Prince William County Police in the past," said Officer Jonathan Perok, a police spokesman, who said U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement was notified at the time of one of those arrests.

narciso the harpoon

Well I think Kim was just reciting facts the Brits were out by 1929, except for Major Glubb's small force holding off the Ilkwan, but the Golden Square and Ghailani, the son of one of the fellow the Brits left in charge
forced a return in '41. It will be a matter of when not if

Clarice

Joy--From Drudge:
FLASH: AMANPOUR ON BOTTOM IN DEBUT...
NBC 'MEET PRESS' 2,808,000 VIEWERS
CBS 'FACE' 2,379,000
ABC 'THIS WEEK' 2,211,000
Even so, I want the names and addresses of the 2 million dopes who tuned in to her.

narciso the harpoon

You need a smaller sample, SCAM can't handle that much volume

Heh, I knew that would drive you around the bend.  You're way too easy.

Calm down, Anduril. The neocons of the world do not jump when I speak.

This is a big messy world. The alternative to constant war is a peacekeeper. The UN isn't up to the job. It's a dirty, thankless job, but someone has to do it. Now, would you rather have the job filled by a coalition of functioning democracies, or by some other entity?
==================

matt

I never said endless, Anduril. But these kinds of issues do take time.We destroyed the Baathist structure that existed for 30 years and replaced it with anarchy. There was no Plan in place for nation building in Iraq even though this was a sine qua non for our eventual withdrawal. there was plenty of blame to go around.

But once in, I believe the job must be completed properly. Sticking one's tail between ones legs, declaring victory, taking claim for someone else's efforts, and high tailing it out of there meets none of the operative conditions for any form of long term stability.

Everything is beautiful.  And true.

However, Anduril, come to think of it, if I did rule the world.
=============

cathyf
I doubt some Dem, otherwise in deep love with HCR, is going to say "well, I won't filibuster" just because of the 1099.
You don't understand the argument. The deal is simple: the republicans announce that the only way that they will pass any law repealing the 1099 rule or the individual mandate is if the law ALSO repeals the outlawing of pre-existing condition exclusions. Any half-assed repeals will be filibustered.

We had Prohibition passed by Congress and the states (it was a constitutional amendment.) It required a constitutional amendment to repeal it -- which is a lot more than what would be required to repeal Health Insurance Prohibition. I'm telling you -- this is certainly possible.

Health insurance is an enormously valuable product, worth far more than the premiums that we pay for it. It allows Americans to live lives which are safe from the risk of financial devastation if a family member should become seriously ill. We all behave differently because we don't have to make contingency plans to pay for possible 5-, 6- or 7-figure medical bills. Because we can work and plan and invest and not have to worry that it will all go up in bankruptcy if we get hit by bad luck in health.

This is WAY more valuable than the right to drink booze. Insurance companies will one by one announce that they are leaving the business because nobody is paying them any premiums anymore. And those that remain will raise their premiums to $150,000/year because the only people who bother to pay the premiums have average medical bills of $100,000/year. When that happens there will be more than enough political will, republican AND democrat to

LEGALIZE HEALTH INSURANCE NOW!!!

and to

END HEALTH INSURANCE PROHIBITION!!!

If only the republicans can channel it into repeal...

anduril

The neocons of the world do not jump when I speak.

Right. I understand that your a jumper, not really a speaker. When the poobah Neocons speak, you jump.

The alternative to constant war is a peacekeeper. The UN isn't up to the job. It's a dirty, thankless job, but someone has to do it.

Interesting. From my study of history I would've thought that there is NO alternative to constant war--what did I miss? As I understand it, being a "peacemaker" actually means, by your description, engaging in constant war, or something mighty close to it. My alternative to Neocon policies is to choose our wars prudently.

I never said endless, Anduril. But these kinds of issues do take time.

You may not have said endless, but you sure didn't say when, either. What you're saying now is: openended commitment. Given the overall dynamics of the hellhole in question, I call that endless.

Sticking one's tail between ones legs, declaring victory, taking claim for someone else's efforts, and high tailing it out of there meets none of the operative conditions for any form of long term stability.

Perhaps not, but it does seem to be the American way. A solution hallowed by tradition. It could be called, knowing when to stop beating your head against the wall.

The underlying problem, of course, is a seemingly chronic inability on the part of Americans to see the world as others see it--to mistake what we wish to be true for what IS true.

anduril

LEGALIZE HEALTH INSURANCE NOW!!!

END HEALTH INSURANCE PROHIBITION!!!

cathyf, it's a good slogan. Here's another: Never underestimate the GOPers' ability to disappoint.

The fact is, our political system appears to be broken and only an even bigger crisis than we're currently experiencing will cause our political class to wake up. As long as politicians can use tax revenues to bribe interest groups and create new dependents, this game will continue.

anduril

Another slogan: Draft Chris Christie. He appears to believe what he's saying.

Janet

Draft Chris Christie. He appears to believe what he's saying.

I agree! The #1 characteristic I'm looking for is for the candidate to be able to stand against the media. Strong in their beliefs.

 centralcal

O/T, but this is a HOOT - from :

"Although the Villa Padierna on the Costa del Sol resort of Marbella is a 5-star resort, it is apparently a tacky 5-star resort. According to the Telegraph:


Yet despite the sophistication and elegance of the (resort) where Mrs Obama will arrive with her nine-year-old daughter Sasha on Wednesday, Marbella's reputation does not make it an obvious destination for the First Lady.

Indeed, her decision to holiday on the Costa del Sol has been met with bemusement by some, who associate Marbella more with reality television stars, gangsters, corrupt politicians and wannabe WAGs (wives and girlfriends) than with the genuinely chic and classy Mrs Obama."


Melinda Romanoff

c-cal-

watch it, or she'll be out prancing at Seaside Heights.

Extraneus

Something about the plans to de-fund the health care legislation. (It's from POLITICO, so of course a beach of salt is warranted.)

Republican Party eyes choking health law funding

Danube of Thought

I have a small request to make of my friends here: if you're responding to an Anduril post, could you begin it with "Responding to Anduril"? That way, I can scroll past yours as well as his.

Thanks.

Frau Edith Steingehirn

Hello, Janet. How was the Luddite convention? I sure missed you!

What's your take on the Obama Freedom of Worship carp? My husband sez it is a real threat to America's freedom of religion. I think this is more of a *real* concern than what the evil neo-cons have wrought. I fear the neo-coms, myself.

Charlie (Colorado)

Hah, afraid for your seat of reason.

Always suspected that was where he did it.

Jim Ryan

Always suspected that was where he did it.

MEATHEAD: Ma, where's Archie?

EDITH: Oh, he's - [SOUND OF TOILET FLUSHING UPSTAIRS]

sbw

If I were about to purchase Newsweek, I'd look very carefully at circulation. I had to cancel subscriptions after -- I hate to admit it -- donations to NPR some time ago. The subscriptions were tossed in as an (unwanted) premium.

They seem to have done the same thing to my daughter, perhaps as a college student.

The subscriptions would be considered "paid" but I assure you that does not mean that the people receiving the magazine wanted it or read it. Who would buy advertising knowing that? Who would buy a magazine knowing that?

Charlie (Colorado)

Okay, I can't remember the exact name of this phenomenon, but it's the one where someone writes, apparently with a straight face, "despite massive increases in the prison population,. crime in America has been decreasing."

The point, of course, is that "despite"; the obvious interpretation of the facts would be that if you catch and imprison lots of criminals, the overall crime rate would go down.

So what we have here is "despite the much greater research funding for adult stem cell research, and the legal impediments to so-called 'embryonic' stem-cell research, adult stem cell research is progressing much faster."

There's also the little issue that if someone were to manage a full regression to totipotent stem cells starting with adult tissue, you'd immediately be confronted with the fact that you've gone 98 percent of the way to human cloning; totipotent stem cells are indistinguishable from the blastomere cells that make up a very early embryo.

If you're really convinced that blastocysts are fully individuals "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights", then progress with "adult" stem cells is only going to help for so long.

Janet

Great Frau...we sure drove a lot in the big state of Texas for a bunch of Luddites! Lots of meat eating, talking, laughing, shooting guns,....hope I did the cro magnon community proud.
That "Freedom of worship" vs. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...". What do you figure they are up to?
I think if this group wants government to be the god, they are gonna have to cut off any real living for Almighty God from the public sphere. It will be okay if we "worship" in our "hearts" but we will have to keep it to ourselves. They won't be able to stomach the "free exercise thereof".
Are you gonna come to the 9-12 Tea Party?

Clarice

Interesting point, Chaco. I always assumed that one of the objections to the use of stem cells was their source--aborted fetuses, but I can see that cloning is also a problem.

narciso the harpoon

That's the Butterfield effect, after clueless
(is there any other kind) NY Times reporter
Fox Butterfield, chaco

Jim Ryan

Or a droplet of amino acids, sugars, nucleic acids, and such, sufficient to make an embryo with the technology of tomorrow.

Or a droplet of nitrogen molecules, hydrocarbons, oxygen, sulfurous compounds, etc., etc., sufficient to make an embryo with the technology of tomorrow.

Or a selection of protons, neutrons and electrons...

Or a small vacuumed chamber where the quantum mechanicist and biochemist of tomorrow can produce all the above from nothing, including the embryo.

There's no hope in that direction. Just have to draw a line at the existence of a brain. If it has a brain, it's an Ed or a Nancy. Perhaps a little groggy and out of it yet, but still.

matt

every time a bill is introduced as "Freedom To..." run for the hills. You know it's going to infringe on someone else, usually the majority and the concept of equality in general. It's pretty much a tag that some special interest is gaining an advantage.

It is simply amazing how the progressives twist and distort language.

centralcal

I have a small request to make of my friends here...

You're THE MAN DoT! I couldn't agree with you more. Life is too short to waste on utter nonsense!

Melinda Romanoff

Jim-

Where do you draw the line?

Around all of it? Who's the judge and jury? You? Me? Bubu and Cleo?

Or, do we act as we do with most new technology? And it is technology, in case you didn't notice.

This will develop in unique ways, most unimaginable, probably a couple of horrors.

Just like the Industrial Revolution.

We will wrestle back and forth with the guidelines, risks, and "good faith" efforts that get people killed none the less.

Some will be upset, some will scream "Blasphemy!", and others will concoct schemes to profit from the madness.

It will sort itself out. The shameable will be shamed into doing nothing. The shameless will not, and a compromise, where all can live, will emerge.

IT will not be pretty, nor what you want, but it will work.

And there is nothing you and I can do about it, because that would mean we control the actions of others.

I do not feel that I know that much to be able to dictate others. I prefer consent.

(rant off, sorry, bubu got my dander up on the tax thingie after Laffer's admirable piece in the WSJ today.)

larry

As I understand it, there is no ban on embryonic stem cell research, only on government funding of same. We're not still having that non-argument, are we?

I remember when they marched to protest the occupation of Japan...oh wait, I mean Germany...oh wait, I mean Korea...

Porchlight

who associate Marbella more with reality television stars, gangsters, corrupt politicians and wannabe WAGs (wives and girlfriends) than with the genuinely chic and classy Mrs Obama."

Is this some sort of subtle dig at FLOTUS? It sounds absolutely perfect for Michelle.

larry

cathyf: Theoretically, Ins Co's can cover preexisting conditions if they can assess the risk and price it accordingly. What they cannot do is cover all and comply with price controls.

matt

the bouncing ball flatlined today. RIP Mitch Miller.....

Danube of Thought

Delighted to hear that C.R.E.W. has Jesse Jackson Jr. on its list of the fifteen most corrupt people in congress.

larry

According to the Telegraph:..................met with bemusement.............Posted by: centralcal | August 02, 2010 at 08:01 PM 100% of the time this word appears, the user doesn't know its meaning.

Jim Ryan

I know, Mel, but we can't leave garden variety murder up to personal choice on the grounds that we don't want to control other, can we? We know enough to dictate to others that they not strangle their five-year-olds, for example. We stand up. We are compelled by duty to figure out what is right and what is wrong when it comes to matters as grave as taking another's life. In other matters far less grave, we live and let live. But not here.

Janet

yes Jim...well said.

cathyf
Theoretically, Ins Co's can cover preexisting conditions if they can assess the risk and price it accordingly.
Right...

Imagine that the government passes the following law:

All casinos with slot machines must modify them so that the player can pull the handle and see what comes up and exactly what the prize is BEFORE deciding whether or not to feed a coin into the slot. If the display comes up a winner, AND the player decides to pay for the pull, then the slot machine will pay off the prize shown.
So, around here, the loosest slots pay off 95 cents on the dollar. It doesn't take a fancy pricing model (trust me I spent 20 years writing code for dervative pricing models I know what fancy looks like.) I can tell you the exact price -- a slot machine with a prize of 95 cents needs to have a price of $1 to play.

"Theoretically" if the Congress were to pass that law they would not be outlawing slot machines. Actually, of course, they are.

(I think I stole the slot machine analogy from Rick, or was it boris? Another analogy is that you get to decide whether or not to pay your $1 for your lottery ticket after the numbers are drawn and you know whether or not it's a winner. There the fair market value of the prize is more like 45 cents -- lotteries are a tax on people that are bad at math...)

Melinda Romanoff

Jim-

Yes, precisely, but the path to consensus is usually far uglier than what's in the history books, and is what started OSHA in the firstplace.

It will not be perfect, but we can influence the mores of what happens from here on out. And punish the outliers (after making careful records of their work, of course. This is going to sound disgusting, but who kept Mengeles' work? It was archived, because parts were used in evidence in the Trials. Something to think about.)

We observe laws by mutual consent, others do not. Information, especially scientific information, knows no bounds and will be abused by the tyrannical, as well as the tormented.

This is knowledge, first and foremost, morals merely "place", at first. Knowledge must be taught so that all may make an informed decision as to what the consensus will be.

Your idea of murder might be smidge different from the next person over if it comes out that they will live for another 300 years by this and you will not.

This is technology we are talking about, not divine grace. It will be ugly in places not expected. And it will take time. And hope.

That's all I'm saying.

Jim Ryan

So, for me it's "Got Brains?" You got a brain, you're in the "Don't Tase me Bro" club. You're a little dude or gal.

Jim Ryan

I see, Mel. Well, I admit that, possibly, the consequences of being heavy handed in this area are so bad that we should allow what I consider to be murders. Similarly, there may be a strict duty to help poverty-stricken innocents, but the consequences of enforcing this duty by law might be so abhorrent that we should not do so.

Jim Ryan

Take the American welfare state...please!

peter

Mztt, I'm sure you know that Mitch Miller produced one of the most cherished Charlie Parker albums, Charlie Parker with strings.

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