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February 19, 2011

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Chubby

I believe this has already been posted, but can't be repeated often enough:

Letter from FDR Regarding Collective Bargaining of Public Unions written August 16, 1937.

((All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management.

The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations.

Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of Government employees.

A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable. ))

PD

Elections have consequences. Didn't Obama say something like that? But he only means it when his side wins them.

Otherwise, it's back to the real Dem. goal: The acquisition and maintenance of power.

... by any means necessary.

Janet...off the couch & sportin Tea Party chic

...and as Jane noted on the other thread, it is the 2 year anniversary of the Tea Party. I'm wearing my Sturbridge Tea Party shirt today in solidarity with sanity! Go Madison!

Ranger

Via Instapundit:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704900004576152172777557748.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop>What's at Stake in Wisconsin's Budget Battle

This is the part they were talking about on local talk radio yesterday that is the real sticking point. All else is misdirection:

Labor historian Fred Siegel offers further reasons why unions are manning the barricades. Mr. Walker would require that public-employee unions be recertified annually by a majority vote of all their members, not merely by a majority of those that choose to cast ballots. In addition, he would end the government's practice of automatically deducting union dues from employee paychecks. For Wisconsin teachers, union dues total between $700 and $1,000 a year.

These two changes will dramatically shift the unions efforts to survival, rather than agitation. They will have to spend time and effort just to get their dues money, and they will have to spend a huge amount of time every year just making sure they have enough votes to stay certified. If they fail a certification vote, they would have to mount a recertification campaign.

Extraneus

No matter what happens, unions will have to go all out to support Obama and Dems in 2012. Could be their Waterloo.

Ras -15.

Neo

Joe Klein must be off his meds ...

Wisconsin: The Hemlock Revolution
I mean, Isn't it, well, a bit ironic that the protesters in Madison, blocking the state senate chamber, are chanting "Freedom, Democracy, Union" while trying to prevent a vote? Isn't it ironic that the Democratic Senators have fled the democratic process? Isn't it interesting that some of those who--rightly--protest the assorted Republican efforts to stymie majority rule in the U.S. Senate are celebrating the Democratic efforts to stymie the same in the Wisconsin Senate?

... and "Hemlock" is so appropriate

Adrew X

I have my own patisan framework, so I don't want to get blinkered by it, but it really does seem to me that the left has lost what the Chinese call "The Mandate of Heaven". The key symptom of such is when every step you take to address X and bring about beneficial result Y, simply results in making the situation ever worse, like barbed spear working ever deeper into your flesh.

The left is killing themselves here. Just killing themselves. Starting with EVERY single word about "civility" now thrown out the window to shatter on the street below. That weapon of the left against the right is now dead as a doornail. Done.

Then, is there a single NON-union person out there who is in sympathy with these protesters, especially given their behavior? Look at union vs non-union numbers.

Then there is the great Cheese-Dem skedaddle. WTF?? These are serious politicians that we should listen to? And how do they expect this to end for them? All the GOP has to do is sit on the measure for now, and then pass it whenever just one of them returns. They all gonna stay away until 2012? And then win more seats with that? Is that the plan? T'scha!

Then, Obama throws all in with the unions, a decided minority in a country of tens of millions of struggling private sector workers. But, as the price for antagonizing everyone else, Obama certainly locked up the union activist vote... that was in his pocket to the end already.

Every step here is killing the left, and setting the table for a titanic battle which I think they will lose big.

Interesting times.

clarice feldman

I agree, Andrew. This is unbelievably dumb.

Adrew X

BTW, I just want to add.... to all state GOP's out there, NOW is the time to act on this front (of confronting public sector unions). NOW. Immediately. The outside resources, energy, and media battalions are being sent to Wisconsin. Let them get pinned down there. Walker can hold them fast like Grant held Lee, while the Army of the West sweeps the field everywhere else.

State GOP's, the iron is hot. Strike it now. Don't wait.

PD

Then, is there a single NON-union person out there who is in sympathy with these protesters, especially given their behavior?

Oh, sure. For example, UW students, who pay no state taxes.

Neo

So, Obama opposes FDR

Extraneus

Well said, Andrew.

Pagar

"For Wisconsin teachers, union dues total between $700 and $1,000 a year."

If the following comment @American Thinker article --http://comments.americanthinker.com/read/1/769914/page-1.html
by Northern Girl at Feb 17@01:05PM is true:

"I do not associate myself with the union beyond what is required of me (including the $1200/year in union dues over which I have no control).

I suspect the Teacher's union is ripping of their members for a lot more than the article Ranger quoted at 09:50AM. $1200 dollars a year, amazing.

If you really want to see how bad the rip off the taxpayer mess is in education, read the LUN from another article at American Thinker that explains how the teacher's unions pour hundreds of millions of dollars into the Democrat campaigns to defeat America.


MayBee

To paraphrase a genius state senator, I am not anti-union, I am anti-dumb union.

I just want one person in this fight to make the case that the teachers unions (or other public employees unions) benefit the employer and taxpayer in some way.

I keep asking on Althouse, but none of the sympathizers over there will bite. If the unions only benefit the teachers, I don't see why we should have to pay for them. If they benefit us in some way, I'd like to hear it.

PD

I wonder how many union people would take him up on it if Walker allowed state workers to divert the funds normally sent toward union dues to their pensions and health care?

I mean, really: Would you rather fund your union bosses, or your own retirement and health care costs?

Porchlight

This was discussed in the earlier thread - Palin speaks to union rank and file in her Facebook message. She begins by attempting to persuade and ease tensions rather than pouring gas on the fire. Then she lays out the true agenda of the union bosses and their friends in government.

I think it's quite interesting that she chose to address union members rather than Walker's supporters (her perceived natural constituency) on the eve of the 2nd anniversary of the Tea Party. She is often accused of being a rabble-rouser who is only interested in riling up her base, but this is one of many examples to the contrary. Wisconsin turned redder in 2010 but is still very much a battleground state. Palin would need to win over swing voters in a national battle in 2012. She'll never have union support, of course, but she might chip away at the edges with middle-of-the-road voters previously inclined to support teachers' unions. This is an intriguing approach.

Extraneus

Wasn't it Albert Shanker who famously said "When school children start paying union dues, that's when I'll start representing the interests of school children"? Why yes, it was.

Surely Obama supports that thinking, which is why he's representing the interests of the unions. School children aren't paying him dues.

Old Lurker

Somebody should connect the amount paid teachers in WI with their 44/50 rank in output (per a caller to Rush). We are used to the cost-benefit disconnects of teachers in DC and NYC, but that much money for that little result in WI? There should be outrage up there.

Henry

I'm three threads behind already. PD stay safe in Madison. Will be plinking with friends here as a supporting event.

narciso

Well her parents were schoolteachers, and I believe some relatives are too, so this it would seem a natural fit for her. In the last months of her governorship, she got into quite
a scrum with the local education interests over the stimulus funds, and recall that incident on her show, where she met the teacher, that was actually a 'theatre coordinator

Danube of Thought

I just want one person in this fight to make the case that the teachers unions (or other public employees unions) benefit the employer and taxpayer in some way.

Try getting any of them to explain how the unions help the students, which after all is the ultimate point (supposedly). Anyone who thinks they do should watch Waiting for Superman and think again.

PD

Anyone hear anything new about the cut 'n' run Dem. Senators? They're still on the lam, last I heard.

Extraneus

The longer this goes, the worse it's going to get for the teachers. In NJ, once the spotlight shined on them, their polling tanked.

Porchlight
State GOP's, the iron is hot. Strike it now. Don't wait.

Posted by: Adrew X | February 19, 2011 at 10:25 AM

Yes, yes, to everything you said, Adrew X.

Pagar

"School children aren't paying him dues."

This is made very clear in the LUN.

The Democrats cannot control elections without the slaves of the Teacher Unions fat cats forced by the obscene laws such as Wisconsin has which force taxpayers who want to work to belong to unions. That is nothing different than slavery.

centralcal

Ann Althouse is getting the vapors because the Tea Party - including some outsiders - will be rallying in WI today.

Are all the protesters WI citizens? Jesse Jackson isn't. Trumka isn't.

centralcal

DoT: you mention "Waiting for Superman," which I haven't seen. However, Iowahawk has this Tweet:

There's a segment in Waiting For Superman about Milwaukee's horrible teachers & how they're unfireable thanks to WEAC. Mandatory viewing.
Neo

An interesting view of a teacher's strike in Sierra Vista AZ (part of Gabrielle Giffords' district) back in 1980. LUN

I personally spent a week of my 1st grade there back in the era of dinosaurs.

Danube of Thought

OK, let's go back to the beginning. January 17, 1962 JFK signs Executive Order 10988, granting federal employees collective bargaining rights for the first time.

Let us close our eyes and imagine that Chris Christie decides to run after all, and in announcing his candidacy he says, "On my first day in office I will sign an Executive Order rescinding 10988." (kind of like closing Gitmo, except that it will actually take effect--and not after one year, but immediately). And he goes on to say that "I will ask congress, under its Commerce Clause power, to prohibit collective bargaining by public employees in the fifty states."

I think from that moment forward, 2012 becomes a single-issue election at every level from the presidency on down, and I think we win, big-time. Andrew X is right; the iron is hot, but it figures to get a lot hotter in the next 21 months. And just about every man Jack in the Democratic party is irrevocably foursquare on the wrong side of this issue.

Cecil Turner

Hey, why not give a bunch of taxpayer money to professional union negotiators, who can pay themselves a fat salary and then use what's left to leverage more goodies from the public trough? And then we can have taxpayer-funded mediation and resolve any truly difficult issues in taxpayer-funded court . . . as a prelude to spending a bunch of the taxpayers' money on bloated benefits packages. What's not to like?

The only thing that's worse is local governments spending taxpayer money to lobby Washington for more handouts (a trend that has exploded under the Obama administration). It's hard to imagine a more efficient way to waste money.

Can't imagine why this sort of thing doesn't poll better. [/snark]

(Another) Barbara

I'm a huge fan of Andrew Breitbart but I wish he and the other outsiders would stay away from Wisconsin right now. Seems to me that the unions aren't helping themselves by busing in SEIU-ers, DNC plants and Jesse Jackson, and turning this into a national right vs. left fight will harm our side, not help. Governor Walker, in his calm and understated way, is behaving admirably and his non-confrontational style is exactly what is needed, as long as he sticks to his principles.

Danube of Thought

First off, are they gonna say "hey wait a minute--the commerce power doesn't go that far?"

Captain Hate

Ann Althouse is getting the vapors because the Tea Party - including some outsiders - will be rallying in WI today.

Althouse voted for Obama. That's all you need to know about her.

Danube of Thought

This guy muses about where this is all headed.

I agree with Barbara about Breitbart and the Tea Party. Let these people skewer themselves all by their lonesome--they're doing a fine job so far.

And I have my doubts whether Breitbart can get a very large crowd together in time. If he doesn't, the whole thing will be portrayed as who got the bigger crowd, and that's not a winner.

Charlie (Colorado)

I personally spent a week of my 1st grade there back in the era of dinosaurs.

At least you must have been ahead when you went back to school elsewhere. A week in Sierra Vista is like a year anywhere else.

Charlie (Colorado)

Althouse voted for Obama. That's all you need to know about her.

And you're an idiot, which is all we need to know about you.

Jane (get off the couch - come save the country)

AB,

If the tea party goes, I want Breitbart there because he is one of the people I trust to document reality. I have no doubt the left will lie.

I think tho this is the first time I recall the tea party countering a protest. I could be wrong.

Porchlight

And you're an idiot, which is all we need to know about you.

Not true, Charlie. Come on.

Captain Hate

Having another bad day, Charlie?

Captain Hate

If the tea party goes, I want Breitbart there because he is one of the people I trust to document reality. I have no doubt the left will lie.

Every time people worry about Breitbart he ends up doing the right thing. Why do you think the trolls attack him specifically?

centralcal

It's okay Captain - Charlie always says more about himself than he does about the person he targets.

Janet...off the couch & sportin Tea Party chic

...too many carbs?

Ignatz

--And he goes on to say that "I will ask congress, under its Commerce Clause power, to prohibit collective bargaining by public employees in the fifty states."--

I can't think of an issue that crystallizes the 'us vs them' struggle better than this one. The sheer greed and reckless disregard for their fellow citizens, who far outnumber them and pay their damned salaries, just can't be displayed more clearly. Nor can the cynical conceit that everything they do is 'for the children' be more clearly debunked than when they riot to be able to continue to pauperize the parent's of the children they're entrusted with in order to pad their own nest.
Leftism at the personal level boils down to a simple demand and this WI episode exposes it perfectly; I'm a lazy, whining loser and I want as much of your money as I can grab, any way I can grab it. I want it now and you better not complain when I take it and you most assuredly better never, ever try to get it back!
All the left's idealistic faldoral, political theorizing, social issues, justice, fairness and blah, blah, blah about every thing under the sun is in furtherance of this one essential goal; the power to covet and take their neighbor's wealth and to denigrate him by projecting all of their pathologies onto him in the process for objecting to having it stolen from him.

centralcal

Doesn't Wisconsin have many Tea Party groups? It is not like the Tea Party folks showing up will likely be from the outside. So, because Breitbart will be a speaker, they should be discounted?

clarice feldman

I think it unlikely the R's would have taken over in Wisconsin if it were not for the tea party and the IT and it would have been unlikely that governors would have the spine to fight the public employee unions were it not for the tea party--I have no problem with Caine and Breitbart showing up to clealry state what this is all about and to keep the pressure on the state Senators to back the governor.

OldTimer

Bravo to the skies of Heaven, Ignatz.

BobS

As a public school teacher and union member, I am mortified by what I saw yesterday from Wisconsin. What a bad name those teachers gave what was once considered to be a noble profession.

The point of discussion with radical reformers like Rhee and Bush needs to be about their devotion to standardized tests. You can see that its a weak pount for both of them as when questioned about testing specifically, they have to say "union" in the first sentence. Days like yesterday and today in Wisconsin tragically give them them all the ammunition they need.

Danube of Thought

It's an hour until the Breitbart rally is supposed to start. Anybody hear anything about what's happening? Henry?

Extraneus

It *is* a national right vs. left fight. The left is all in, bleeding profusely. They're massing more soldiers on the battlefield. I don't see any reason for tea partiers not to get out in support of responsible Republicans taking it to the enemy. Surely they'll be better dressed.

The only thing I wonder about is the opportunity for violence. This will be the best one so far. If some union thugs get out of hand, and the tea partiers show restraint, it could be a humongous gift.

narciso

I agree with you BobS, from my limited perspective, the FCAT (that's the local variant of the NCLB testing regimen) is a cul de sac.

Pagar

Anytime you get the mistaken idea that we (the taxpayer) is winning against the public unions, remember Obama has giver complete control of all federal activies to the public employees unions.

"Executive Order 13522 is innocuously titled "Creating Labor-Management Forums to Improve Delivery of Government Services." The reality is that the only thing improved will be the ability of federal employee union bosses to tell managers of government departments and agencies what they can and cannot do. What makes this an even more extraordinary turn of events, however, is the fact the Obama administration has empowered union bosses to exercise this new power behind closed doors without fear of exposure via the Freedom of Information Act."

LUN

As the stench of the public employee unions
grows stronger. YOU (the American Taxpayer)
can not even file a Freedom of Information request to find out what is going on. It's like the BS that no one in America has standing to find out whether the President of the US is eligible to be President.

OldTimer

Fox was just 'live' with the supporters of Governor Walker for controlling the state budget. The supporters are all smiling with common sense, tasteful homemade signs and good cheer. They didn't give a number count yet, however.

God bless America. Wish I could be there.

Danube of Thought

Leftist fool Tim Rutten in the LA Times is seeing the writing on the wall:

The study also finds that public regard for organized labor generally is at a historic low and that discontent with public sector pensions and benefits is rising. In fact, when Pew asked respondents to rank their budget reduction preferences, the "pension plans of government employees" topped the list by 16 percentage points, ahead of cutting funding for colleges and universities and road and transportation expenditures, which tied for second, 10 percentage points ahead of cuts in healthcare.

He goes on to call for the public employee unions to make "statesmanlike" concessions. As Duke Wayne would say, "that'll be the day."

Ignatz

--And you're an idiot, which is all we need to know about you.--

I don't know or care if it's a personality defect, a bad day, depression, drink or whatever else, but just once I'd like to see an apology for this type of recurring and unprovoked oafish remark out of the blue.

centralcal

Ditto, OldTimer.

Ignatz, somehow I don't think apologies are in his nature. You were correct and dead on when you wrote "recurring and unprovoked oafish remark." Sadly, it has become his hallmark.

BobS

Narisco: Unions are fighting the wrong fight. With SB 736 - which will be passed - will make standardized test scores 50% of a teacher's evaluation. Far too many studies have showed that test scores cannot consistently be applied to a teacher's worth as they cannot be maintained year-to-year. Rhee, who believes that such testing is the most effective way in judging teacher's effectiveness, touts her own test scores in her brief three year teaching tenure. She got good results one year.

Less foucus on critical thinking skills is already occuring as a result of Washington's DOE standards. It is with critical thinking skills where innovation. A state agreeing to adopt these standards was a necessity to win Race to the Top funds.

Florida got $700 million in RTTP funds. I wonder if Rick Scott will turn it down like he did the high speed rail money. He made a pledge not to accpet federal money that Florida would have to come up with on it's own one day.

Jane (get off the couch - come save the country)

Brad Thor is also speaking at the rally as well as Joe the Plumber.

Meanwhile the left has Jesse Jackson.

No contest.

Janet...off the couch & sportin Tea Party chic

Wisconsin Education Association Council puts out the home addresses of Wisconsin legislators.

centralcal

Don't know where all the buses came from for the pro-union protestors, but here are the bus locales for the Tea Partiers:

Click through to see where buses will be coming from:

Wausau – Wausau Homes 10805 Bus. Hwy. 51 Schofield; Milwaukee – Bus 1: State Fair Bus 2: Goerkes Corners; Eagle River/Rhinelander – Stop 1: Derby Track Stop 2: Rhinelander (WalMart Parking Lot); Eau Claire – TBA; Green Bay/Appleton – Rock K Ranch – Greenleaf; Manitowoc – TBA; Racine - TBA.

All Wisconsin locations. The "outsiders" appear to be the invited speakers.

reliapundit

thanks 4 the link.

teachers are well paid and have great bennies.

it's time they paid more for their bennies.

and if increases tied to inflation are good enough for our seniors on SS, then they're good enough for teachers.

OldTimer

Pagar's 12:01 LUN is chilling information.

Governor Walker has the eyes and ears of the nation right now. What if he gave a presser informing the public of Barry's hideous little Executive Order 13522? I'd wager a lot more Americans would sit up and take notice, if they knew how the Oval Office and czars have connived to tyrannize and deceive them via the unions.

DebinNC

The WEAC site removed the info on its contact page and removed the names of the leadership on its about us page. Now that WEAC has released the home addresses on the Rep legistators, I hope someone does the same for the elected WEAC folks.

Henry

Danube, it's too nice outside to watch TV. No talk radio on weekends, my rabbit ears don't pick up cable channels so I probably won't hear anything new until tomorrow morning My local friends are coming over (we're a very informal Tea Party) so I will be offline all day in the back forty. Maybe PD or Harryf in Madison can fill us in.

Pam

I saw that Wisconsin is not going to bring any criminal charges against the missing dems. However ,I think they should be held accountable for all gas,food ,and lodging. To expect the taxpayers of Wisconsin to foot the bill for this fiasco is unbelievable pam

Frau Büßerhemd

Yes, Jane - Breitbart, I hope, will be there as a newsman and not as an organizer. If he brings other voices to be heard, IMO that's good. Otherwise the public is left with the sounds and images given us by the raucous left and its useful idiots.

ChaCo, I would simply say that there's much more to Althouse than her unfortunate vote for Pres.Civility. I read there regularly and know she gets reminded of her Obama vote often. I'm sure there are many everywhere still wearing a hair shirt due to voting for Carter, Perot, Clinton or ::shudder:: Obama.

GladNotRaisingFamilyInWisconsin

Caring parents should consider moving their children out of Wisconsin. These so-called "teachers" will be returning to the classroom.

BobS

It's clear some teachers - like in Wisconsin are highly paid. We aren't here in Florida. It been a trade-off. Good health care and a pension. I'm in my 10th year and am making just over $40,0000. We are probably going to pay into our pension this year - and like everyone else - our health care insurance is in name only.

Having said this, we have advnatages other states do not have. No state income tax for one. Low millage rates for another. And something not to be dismissed - NO SNOW.

(Apologies to some. Its a sunny 77 right now)

Captain Hate

Frau, my first vote was my worst: McGovern. I learned from my mistake, though, and never tried to justify it other than the act of a misguided youth (although Nixon was far from a gem). And also never regretted a subsequent vote (although pushing a stylus for McCain was pretty gut-wrenching..).

Theo

The teachers' unions are a victim of their own success. There was a time in this country, not coincidentally before there were powerful teachers' unions, when teachers were relatively underpaid and got tremendous sympathy from the public, who saw them as motivated by teaching children rather than making money. SOME of that old way of looking at things still exists and you can see protesting teachers saying that they are doing this "for the children."
But reality has been flipped. Thanks to the unions (and wussy public officials who bargain with them) teachers are now very well paid with good benefits and incredible job security. And they want more. And they are counting on the public -- THE VERY PEOPLE WHO PAY THEM -- to support their demands for even more.
This bubble is bursting. If the local auto plant goes on strike, people might sympathize with the workers, because the relationship between the workers' demands and how much someone pays for a car seems very indirect. But it is increasingly obvious that the public is in fact direcly on the other side of the very negotiations that the unions want the public to support them on.
Teachers should be allowed to have unions and have them represent them in bargaining. Walker would not do away with that. But the public needs to recognize that in those negotiations, the "children" are being held hostage. No one thinks that auto workers go on strike to benefit the cars they make or the public that buys them. No one should be fooled any longer that the very successful teachers' unions are any different.
Teachers are as greedy and self interested as the rest of us. Good for them. But we should not pretend otherwise as back in the day when we paid them with sympathy rather than cash.

Danube of Thought

CNN's Roland Martin:

The feud between Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker and that state’s employees has all of a sudden become ground zero in the battle between efforts by the GOP to shut down unions as they exist, and those same union workers desperate to hold on to long-fought-for wages and benefits.

This pitched battle is clearly a precursor to the 2012 elections, but it is also the latest shot across the bow of union purists who are relentless in waging a war against government and business for the benefit of their members. …

Walker wants public employees in Wisconsin to pay more for health care benefits and to contribute to their pension plans. Frankly, those are reasonable requests.

Janet...off the couch & sportin Tea Party chic

At GatewayPundit there is a video of Jesse Jackson giving his speech in Wisconsin ( he starts at around the 4 min. mark)...still talking about Selma. Good Lord.

Frau Büßerhemd

Just one of many -- Hilda Solis as Secretary of Labor:

"Solis was not a member of the Education and Labor Committee, but championed the Employee Free Choice Act and was the only member of Congress on the board of American Rights at Work, a pro-union organization that strongly supports the act, for whom she served as treasurer starting in 2004. On trade she voted against both the Dominican Republic–Central America trade agreement and the U.S.-Peru trade agreement, and also expressed opposition to a purposed bilateral U.S.-Colombia trade agreement, citing concerns about human rights violations. Solis opposed legislation that would soften job safety requirements. She received 100 percent ratings from several pro-labor groups for the years 2005 through 2007, and was a major recipient of union political donations." --Wiki

Theo

To follow up on my post of a moment ago, if an auto plant goes on strike, the public might side with the workers in the belief that the workers' demands could be met without increasing the cost of buying a car. Maybe managers could take a salary cut or shareholders could make less profit.
But in this fight, the public needs to realize that it is THEIR money on the table. The money to pay teachers cannot be made up by reducing management salaries (the "managers" are all members of the unions anyway) and there are no "shareholders" or "profits" to take the money from.

THe money comes strictly from "We the People." Now if you are a teacher, the extra taxes are dwarfed by the benefits. If you pay no taxes, maybe you just don't care about those who do. But for everybody else, the interest has to be on the side of Walker's efforts to reduce the costs of employing teachers since everybody else are the people who pay those costs.

sam

If 88% of US workers can work (productively, mind you) without union representation, can someone explain to me the value of unions?

bgates

Ann Althouse is getting the vapors

Eric Scheie had a couple of interesting quotes yesterday:

I can think of no better reason to vote against Obama than the prospect of an administration where any criticism of the President is treated as racism.
-that's Glenn Reynolds in June of 2008;

Little did we realize that [electing Obama] would turn every criticism of the President into an occasion to make an accusation of racism.
-that's Ann Althouse 15 months later. I'm pretty sure that second quote should have an "unexpectedly" in there somewhere. As her commenters like to say, "and you, a law professor". I dunno - it's a fairly good blog, she can make good points, but she has a blind spot the size of Charlie's mean streak.

Theo

Sam --

Value to whom?

This is a complicated question and the historical answer would not be the same as the one today. However, short answer is that in a labor market characterized by large numbers of undifferentiated workers (think 1950s factory workers) unions tend to increase compensation to their members at the expense not of capital or management but at the expense of non union labor.

The conditions for labor unions are rapidly fading. Some of their once legitimate function -- health, safety, hours, etc. -- has been taken over by the government. They have largely simply priced themselves out of the market on things like wages and benefits, hence the very strong push to hire non union workers whenever possible.

In fact, the only really vibrant unions today are the public sector unions. (See above comment about large numbers of undifferentiated workers.)

Danube of Thought

Why is it that over half the unionized workers in the US are public emplees? Could it be that they are the only ones who are employed by a monopolist, and who face no market competition?

What we can see very clearly in CA and elsewhere is that public employment has simply become a racket, and that state and local govrrnment exists primarily for the benefit of the employees, and decidedly not for the taxpayers.

i knew Jesse would mention Selma!

Frau Büßerhemd

I was teaching when the unions starting organizing us in CA. It was the result of collective bargaining. Now where did that come from and why were we put in an adversarial position with the administration? Oh, wait! Is was Governor Moonbeam. The political takeover by the unions when the Dill Act was signed by governor Jerry Brown in 1978 giving the public unions collective bargaining. That's the same governor who will now have to deal live with the mess he created. Unfortunately, so will everyone else, and the union members will go under with the rest of us.

Frau Büßerhemd

Jackson's example would lead us to think that MLK was all about money, and we know that's not true.

Danube of Thought

We need to understand that for Jesse Jackson, Thelma is like the discovery of the cheese thief was for poor old Captain Queeg: the moment of past glory that he vainly tries to relive. In Queeg's case it led to the strawberry investigation. In Jesse's case it leads to every place he can grab a microphone.

Yesterday I proposed a bonus for him if he brought up Selma. Bingo! Pay the man.

Janet

Maybe the Wisconsin Legislature needs to enact some sort of law that says elected Senators must show up for their job or they automatically forfeit their position. No private company would tolerate workers just not showing up.

THe "Badger 14". Hah!

Janet

It looks like some Freepers are working on recall petitions too...Meet me in Kenosha!

Theo

Where in Kenosha Janet?

If I had the energy, I would be in Madison today.

Ranger

Only slightly off topic, as it gets to the fundimental problem of government overspending:

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/02/19/what-does-government-do-best/>What does government do best most?

It has charts that clearly indicate how far government has strayed over the past 65 years.

The final one is the most important to me. Right now the Federal government takes almost 16% of the national economy each year, and uses it to mail a check to somebody. And some people wonder why we can't create private sector jobs any more.

Janet

The Southeast corner Theo...It is what the Freeper said, not me. I should have put it in quotes. I'm in Arlington, Virginia. I would love to be in Madison too.

Frau Büßerhemd

Janet, on the OfA WH site, many of the faithful are calling for Obama to take it to WI and stand with the people.

Janet

Obama can join Jesse & talk about Selma in Madison. That's the ticket!

Danube of Thought

By God do I hope Obama goes there. But while he's not very smart, I don't believe he's that stupid.

PD

From Warren Buffet's 2007 letter to shareholders:

"At Berkshire, we will attempt to further increase our stream of direct and indirect foreign earnings. Even if we are successful, however, our assets and earnings will always be concentrated in the U.S. Despite our country’s many imperfections and unrelenting problems of one sort or another, America’s rule of law, market-responsive economic system, and belief in meritocracy are almost certain to produce ever- growing prosperity for its citizens."

I believe Buffet was an Obama voter. If he's been paying close attention to his candidate's behavior in office, I wonder whether he's beginning to wonder about the rule-of-law part?

sam

How can anyone understand what Jesse Jackson ever says?

PD

How can anyone understand what Jesse Jackson ever says?

The same device that decoded the mush that used to come out of Ted Kennedy's mouth also works with Jackson.

Frau Büßerhemd

sam, Jesse must *print* his demands for targeted corporations. Boomhauer on "King of the Hill" is easier to understand.
LUN

Ranger

BTW, even PolitiFact is slaming the Dem talking points:

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/18/rachel-maddow/rachel-maddow-says-wisconsin-track-have-budget-sur/>Rachel Maddow says Wisconsin is on track to have a budget surplus this year

Here’s the bottom line:

There is fierce debate over the approach Walker took to address the short-term budget deficit. But there should be no debate on whether or not there is a shortfall. While not historically large, the shortfall in the current budget needed to be addressed in some fashion. Walker’s tax cuts will boost the size of the projected deficit in the next budget, but they’re not part of this problem and did not create it.

We rate Maddow’s take False.

Neo

The "Badger 14": Escape From Wisconsin

At 8:12 p.m. yesterday this blog posted (see below) the following:

Important — The Janesville Gazette reports today that Sen. Timothy Cullen expects “the Democrats [will] be back in the Senate chamber around noon Saturday.” Here.

In an interview with Frank Schultz of the Gazette, Sen. Cullen stated that he supported only “one more day of holding out”: “‘I think we made our point, and I think it does give people another day or so to find out what’s in the bill, if they care to find out,’ Cullen said.”

LUN

Danube of Thought

From what I've seen so far it looks like the Tea Party turnout is pretty big, and all is peaceful.

centralcal

Please, please everyone go to National Review and listen to their on-scene interview with Breitbart.
Make sure you listen to the very end when Breitbart is nearly drowned out by the Tea Partiers reciting the Pledge of Allegiance.

GO WISCONSIN TEA PARTY!!!!!

MarkO

He's just not that smart, you know.

Danube of Thought

"Madison - Gov. Scott Walker on Saturday rejected an overture from a Democratic state senator that public employee unions had agreed to make financial sacrifices contained in the budget-repair bill in return for the right to bargain collectively. Cullen Werwie, Walker's spokesman, said in a statement that State Sen. Jon Erpenbach (D-Middleton) "should come to work and debate the bill while doing his job in Madison."

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