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May 10, 2011

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Ignatz

--.....Mr. Obama reviewed the plans and pressed his commanders as to whether they were taking along enough forces to fight their way out if the Pakistanis arrived on the scene and tried to interfere with the operation.--

Is there anyone on planet earth, even the press floozies with their faces pressed longingly against Barry's fly, that believes that for one second?

Rob Crawford

Furhrerprinzip.

These people actually believe a third-rate law professor better known for being an extortionist is better at planning a military operation than a building full of career officers.

Danube of Thought

And of course, the military commanders are powerless to contradict what he says.

Collectorswest

Legacy jobs at cia.Biggest most dangerous op ever!Yes Plame and Joe s offspring can have special protected jobs at cia and so can all those called for the op by O Powers.9/11 didnt fire one,instead we get a complaint,Plame who was in charge.Terrorists charge now.

Danube of Thought

From Firedoglake: And which idiot official(s) thought it was helpful or necessary to provide this information?

Answer: Obama thought it was helpful for his 2012 campaign.

Extraneus

They're really jumping the shark on this. I don't doubt that there were some potential problems, based on Captain America's and Wonder Woman's expressions in that iconic Situation Room photo, but if there was a deal between Bush and Musharraf, doesn't that imply that all this gutsy "fight their way out" b.s. is just silly?

Pops

This is absolutely silliness. I've worked with the military, and in intelligence for over 30 years. No special ops team needs to be reminded by the President that they may have to engage in a firefight and they may need back-up.

How sad it is that to elevate Obama they have to make our military look like complete idiots.

So the military presents a plan all the way up the leadership chain and it finally gets to Obama and he's the first one to think that maybe we may engage hostiles and we may want addtl forces standing by?????

Amazing. No wonder John Kerry thinks that if your stupid, you end up in the military.

Hope Obama also reminded the team they should take weapons, shut off communications and take their safeties off.

MarkO

This is what he does best. Invite a guest who can't contradict him and then lie like hell.

Dubious but gullible

"that believes that for one second?"

That's a bold and broad brush you are wielding, Iggy.

I'll give you 2 to 1 odds that for one second you believed...

"Mission Accomplished"

Pops

The White House released further information today that the President demonstrated for the SEAL team the proper way to perform a double tap to the head using Biden as the dummy.

Then he instructed them on which end of the barrel the rounds would be coming out of, and which foot their combat boots go on.

Captain Hate

You guys (well except for the CIA/luciferian) have it right; this thing has descended into parody in record time. And it didn't even need the unfunny idiots at SNL to do it.

squaredance

Well, the Pakis surely would not want to mess with all that advanced weaponry packed by SEAL Team VI. One is surprised though that the lads did not just beam up. Must have been a ion storm or somethin'.

But in this confusion of Insignia our German newscasters have not topped the Obama Administration for shear, unbridled buffoonery. This bit is just precious:


“Some people may have assumed we could talk our way out of a jam, but given our difficult relationship with Pakistan right now, the president did not want to leave anything to chance...He wanted extra forces if they were necessary.”

One cannot make this stuff up. Seriously, what a level of stupidity the West has now to deal with in its "elites". It is perhaps worse than 1913 or 1935. Truly, we have fools and lunatics running things--and knaves, lots of knaves.


One gathers that that "Senior official" not only actually believes what he has said is true, but thinks that he has said something thoughtful, informed, rational and meaningful. Thus "liberals" chat amongst themselves. We are ruled by a sort of overgrown, High School student government.

This cuts it. Obama and company were advised of it after the fact of the decision to go in was made on the ground. One can just imagine Hilary charging into the Oval office and shouting, "Barry, ya just gotta see this!".

Really now, can you imagine that average American eating up this drivel stateside in WW2? I cannot.

Obama, the accidental warrior.

clarice

Psst--==The secret plan devised by O was that the seals were to put on golf gear and just play their way thru.

You DID NOT hear it from me.

Dubious but gullible

What's hard to believe is that there was, apparently NO RESPONSE
by the Paks or Pushpins, in spite of the propwash and gunfire.

Weren't they gathering intel on site for 40 minutes?

Some say the Paks were complicit in the subterfuge. Maybe so. but they're also incompetent.

Pops

And by the way, in all the shuffle it has been fogotten that it was in fact President Bush that gave the orders for Bin laden's termination.

In fact, Obama was acting on President Bush signed authority to carry out the mission.

SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

PASSED BY CONGRESS ON SEPT 14TH 2001 AND SIGNED BY PRESIDENT BUSH ON SEPT 18TH 2001.

It is fitting that if any question is ever raised about the legality of the raid, President Obama will be citing the authority given to him by the Congress and President Bush to carry out the execution of Bin Laden.

Dubious but gullible

"in all the shuffle it has been fogotten that it was in fact President Bush"

We all would like to forget about him. He's been nearly invisible because he says he doesn't want to undermine the Prez.

The truth is; he's just not that interested.

squaredance

More of Obama leaving nothing to chance.

Such a touching concern for the well being of our service "men".

bgates

Even though there was no need for a massive firefight, it's probably a good idea after the fact to spread the word that we were planning on gunning down Pakistani policemen if they got in our way. If there's one thing that unites all the people of the world, it's joy at the idea of the police getting shot at by foreigners.

Ignatz

--I'll give you 2 to 1 odds that for one second you believed...

"Mission Accomplished"--

Since I've been posting here and since 2001, I've made it clear that Iraq and Afghanistan were both unwinnable wars if our goal is nation building so yeah, I'll take that bet.
Not many of your fellow leftists can say the same when most were talking up Afghanistan as the necessary and "good" war to contrast it with Iraq, which at the moment looks like the less screwed up mess of the two, despite General Barack D. Ripper's gallant efforts.

peter

Burn a Bush cos' for peace he no push no button
Killing over oil and grease
no weapons of destruction
How can we follow a leader when this a corrupt one....

Bamster's da' man cause he got gutsy
Even mo' than Michelle's got big buttsy
He showed them seals how to give two taps
Then invited over a poet to spread some raps
Yo', you, Pockies, our boys leavin Abottabad
even if they gotta badabing too bad
Minus nine in the Ras he's enjoying the bump
Even if gas prices just went up a lump
Yo', call me Peter I can bust the rhymes
'specially after I read the New York Times

Danube of Thought

Yo indeed.

Ignatz

LOL, pete.

BobDenver

General Barack D. Ripper

A classic.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Well I believed the "Mission Accomplished" sign because it referred to the ship completing its mission. It is your side who got confused and is still confused today.

Besides, did W ever look sexier than he did that day striding across the flight deck in his flight suit. Whew!

 centralcal

Both pete the rapper and Iggy are bringing the funny today.

Been busy all day and missed all the threads, guess our classless President talked about moats and gators today as a border protection scheme. You all must have had some fun with that, too! lol

Dubious but gullible

"Besides, did W ever look sexier than he did that day striding across the flight deck in his flight suit"

Yeah. I can imagine the hoots and hollers if Obama had parachuted into the meet with the Seals replete with flight suit and cod-piece.

Sexy, sexy.

Dubious but gullible

"General Barack D. Ripper's gallant efforts."

Yes. That IS brilliant.

Iggy;

Do me a favor. Dig up some archive from say, 2003 or 2004 and link from same so that I might give your some credibility on the Iraq war
opposition you keep insisting you expressed openly here at JOM.

Your Bona Fides are important.

bgates

if Obama had parachuted into the meet with the Seals

Ooh, I wouldn't advise that. Based on his experience with the employment rate, America's credit rating, and his approval numbers, he doesn't seem to have much skill slowing things that are accelerating downwards.

hit and run

We all would like to forget about him.

Hah. "We all". You have a mouse in your pocket or is projection more than just a river in Egypt?

Extraneus

Besides, did W ever look sexier than he did that day striding across the flight deck in his flight suit.

That's the thing that hurt them the most, and made Bush his most die-hard enemies. They couldn't handle that image after Dukakis in the tank.

I don't normally read Cleo's posts, but I noticed that "cod-piece" reference, which of course men didn't even notice. That was strictly a woman thing.

Dubious but gullible

"but I noticed that "cod-piece" reference, which of course men didn't even notice. "

My apologies, Extraanus. I thought you were masculine.

No offense.

Dubious but gullible

"projection more than just a river in Egypt?"

I always thought Denial was a river in Egypt.

hit and run

Posted by: Dubious but gullible | May 10, 2011 at 06:29 PM

3:29 PM on a Monday? I'm just concerned -- tell me your four day work week give you Monday off this week. Last week it was Friday.

Dubious but gullible

"3:29 PM on a Monday? I'm just concerned -- tell me your four day work week give you Monday off this week. Last week it was Friday"

You really ought to consult on that Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

I have been working since 5 am. Hardware issues/help desk.

Thanks for the interest, though. btw. it's Tuesday..

hit and run

btw. it's Tuesday..

Hah! Now that's funny. I can't claim it was a typo. I think I honestly thought it was Monday.

narciso

So in the months of surveilance at the CIA safehouse, they never noticed ant particular
Pakistani military detailed to the place.?

Dubious but gullible

S'ok.

Every day seems like Monday, these days.

hit and run

You really ought to consult on that Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

This from the guy who is infamous for:

"..only three things he mentions in a sentence, a noun,a verb,and BLAME BUSH!!!"
--stuff Biden (almost) said

Dubious but gullible

Are you drunk?

hit and run

Not if it's Tuesday...

Threadkiller

I am.

maryrose

Hardball and Matthews can't get enough of this NYT story,led with it and repeated the phrase commander-in- chief at least a dozen times. They will milk this story until the cows come home because Obama hasn't accomplished anything else.It's like applauding someone for using the potty for the first time.
,

boris

"It's like applauding someone for using the potty for the first time."

So true.

Dubious but Painfully Stupid

Which republican candidate is talking about the success of the surge, or Afghanistan?

Comment Posted By Dubious but Gullible On 3.02.2008 @ 16:06

Dubious but Incandescenstly Clairvoyant

The parallels between 1932 and 2008 are not trifling.

Hoover won the nomination with 98% of the delegates, but it would be nearly 20 years before republicans regained the WH and 60 years before the House was regained.
Start rebuilding now, all ye of conservative hope.

Comment Posted By Dubious but Gullible On 5.02.2008 @ 21:16

Dubious but Horribly Dishonest

Although I was 1-y during VN due to hypertension, my son who is an avid military historian has wanted nothing since age 5, but be a marine. He was tested at 60 but was rejected because of a history of asthma.

narciso

If he was thinking of Somalia or Desert One, one would think he would authorized a ground
complement to assist if there had been a problem,

PD

Amazing. No wonder John Kerry thinks that if your stupid, you end up in the military.

The updated version is that you end up in the White House.

Barack Obama

having two Blackhawks 90 miles away each carrying 10-12 soldiers/sailors 90 minutes away by air does not constitute backup. Having 20-30 elite troops with some serious firepower 10 minutes away is backup.

That military academy had some sort of garrison force along with the local paramilitary. 24 John Waynes still gets undone by a hundred or more goofballs with AK-47's expect maybe in a Robert Rodriguez movie with guns with magical 2,000 round magazines.

Barry the Prevaricator is just digging himself in deeper once again because he knows the people who actually know what happened are under NDA's and honor their obligations. The truth will eventually out, however.

The Pakistani government has declared China their BFF and has probably handed over anything they can get away with on the helicopter we left behind. Every time China was mentioned in the PM's speech today, Parliament went nuts. That's going to make the cross border issue easier.

Dubious and Spectacularly Stupid

"...I might give your some credibility on the Iraq war"

Can we talk about the surge?

But remember: only those with phony Marine sons can participate in the discussion. Bonus for those whose phony sons got killed.

PD

That's the thing that hurt them the most, and made Bush his most die-hard enemies. They couldn't handle that image after Dukakis in the tank.

Dukakis in the tank looked like Mr. Gravitas compared to Kerry in the sperm suit.

Comanche Voter

Well now boys--remember that no less an authority than Maureen Dowd has suggested that "no wonder Obama's top generals call him a Cool Hand Luke".

I read that and wanted to puke. Let's just say that if the Pakis had really wanted to take on a 40 man team on the ground in Abbotabad, it would have been a difficult extraction. It's a long way to the border and a pretty nasty fight. I don't care if Barack D. Ripper was on the ground his own nasty self--complete with codpiece.

narciso

Yes, we're in the hands of very best men, here:

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/osama-bin-laden-raid-pakistan-hints-china-peak/story?id=13570573

Dubious and Spectacularly Stupid

I think this whole story line is preposterous.

Are we to believe that, say, 24 SEALs are incapable of "fighting their way out of Pakistan," but if we double the number they are?

Are we to believe that Barack Obama somehow intuited that 48 would do what 24 could not, whereas that magical insight had not previously occurred to, say, the skipper of Team Six or anyone else in the chain of command, including the SpecOps people?

Are we to believe that this insight was correct, and that the mission would otherwise have failed?

Are we to believe that the decision as to whether we would or would not return fire against the Paks had not been considered, discussed and resolved until the question popped into Obama's mind two weeks ago?

I really need a break.

MarkO

Cool Hand Luke, sucking eggs. An invention as a loser. Yeah, Cool Hand. You're a real cool hand, stupid.

Anyone here who would want to be in a fight with BHO on your side, please step up.

I'll take the other side.

Semenfilledcleo

I will never forgive George W. Bush for sending my imaginary son off to fight in Iraq and Afghanistan.

God bless Obama, who ended the wars and brought my imaginary boy home.

MarkO

Now, your imaginary boy is qualified to be President of the Harvard Law Review.

Dubious and Hopelessly confused

Yes, and he is here with me now, reliving the horrors of the Bush Oppression and his grisly death, followed by his Resurrection and return in the early years of the Obama Epoch.

I am happy to be able to comfort him. We snuggle together often now.

narciso

Now if Tony Shadid, is saying it, it's probably wrong, but it's a disquieting feeling
from the Times report.

MarkO

Oh, the joys of magical realism. It brought you the productivity and stability of Argentina. Besos a todos.

glasater

In the "situation room" photo--Zero's head is lower than anyone else's in the room.

What courage, what a leader....

narciso

I think only Cortazar, really falls in that category, MarkO, whereas Vargas Llosa in Peru
and Garcia Marquez in Colombia, have represented that wave, Vargas Llosa I'm sad to say, is considering endorsing Humala, the
Incan Chavez, for reasons passing understanding.

Danube of Thought

I can eat fifty eggs.

Janet

In the "situation room" photo--Zero's head is lower than anyone else's in the room.

They dragged him in from the golf coarse for heaven's sake. I can't stand to listen to the over-the-top praise for Obama anymore. It is really sickening....especially after the 8 years of Bush hatred & the endless sabotaging of our war efforts.

Steve Diamond

As a law professor, I have to say I find the idea that lawyers could have helped in such circumstances a bit odd.

In any case, fwiw, I worked through the legal basis for the killing at LUN using the White House Insider arguments about a "coup" as my hypothetical starting point.

narciso

'Would you believe' it's not as out of the ordinary, as they would make it seem,


http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/2011/05/so-much-for-gutsy-call-bush-ordered-seals-into-pakistan-2-different-times/

narciso

We never doubted your genius, Jean Francois:

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/05/10/kerry_it_s_time_to_give_up_on_assad_the_reformer

Ignatz

--Iggy;

Do me a favor. Dig up some archive from say, 2003 or 2004 and link from same so that I might give your some credibility on the Iraq war
opposition you keep insisting you expressed openly here at JOM.--

I don't believe I began posting here until 2005 or 2006 but if you want to look back to 2003 and prove me wrong, hey knock yourself out.
To clarify, I have always had doubts about nation building including Clinton's attempts and was skeptical of them in Afghanistan as soon as they began, which was my reference to 2001.

clarice

How did such a great land manage to be run by idiots and knaves like Kerry and Obama?

MarkO

Thanks for the work, Steve. I still feel that Panetta outplayed Obama, but no coup. Not close. I suspect that word was used with dramatic, not legal import.

But, your analysis was much appreciated.

narciso

One of the scariest notions in the Luce piece, in Steve's analysis, 'Senior advisor Robert Gibbs' then again, after Carney's recent Eddie Haskell audition, it's not so disquieting.

maryrose

Well it is precedented so Obama DID NOT invent the idea because President Bush beat him to the punch.
Janet: I have a theory as to why we are hearing all this over the top rhetoric about Obama. His re-election is in serious jeopardy so his minions are spinning like a top to keep him in contention. Obama 45 Generic Repub-43 is awful for as they call him the Slayer of Osama. Redistricting is a killer for dems and the economy if you watch CNBC in the morning tells you all you need to know about the non-recovery.We are looking more like Ireland every day and this housing situation is a fiasco.If unemployment goes higher than 9% put a fork in Obama.The bitter-clingers will eat him for breakfast without the waffle.

clarice

Steve, I have not yet your article but it is nice to see you again.

maryrose

Another theory:
The WH can't believe the low bounce Obama got for Osama so they feel a need to embellish the story. MSNBC sounds absolutely frantic.
OT Why at the beginning of Hardball do they picture Boehnner, Pelosi Obama and Sarah Palin? What is Sarah's picture there for? She does not hold a public office. She is no longer a political official so why her picture? Why not Romney or TPaw or Newt? Is this putting her up there for target practice?

Captain Hate

narc, have we discussed Cortazar before? I've never quite *got* him in that I couldn't understand what all the praise about "Hopscotch" was based on; although it was a long time ago that I read it and I might not have been *ready* for whatever was the payoff. Is there one book that you think is above the rest or did I inadvertently lurch into seeing the Emperor in all his finery.

narciso

It's been years since I read it as well, Captain, and admit I didn't get it either,
did you finish the Donoso.

Captain Hate

No I'm only about 100 pages into it (I'm an extremely slow reader plus I'm always reading multiple things at once; although I can't imagine reading it at a page turning pace because the writing shifts between narrators very frequently). It is *very* unusual and holds my attention by making me wonder what can happen next.

narciso

Well I'm the opposite, a fairly fastreader, there's a Russian crime novelist, Alexandra
Marinina, which is only available in French
translation as far as I know, and I've gotten
the gist of it.

Captain Hate

I find the concept of a "Russian crime novel" interesting because I'd automatically assume that the state would be the primary suspect. Speaking of which, I was watching the early episodes of season 2 of "Breaking Bad" where the two (for lack of a better term) protagonists were considering killing a methed-out Mexican drug lord by manufacturing ricin, the pre polonium Kremlin choice of international targeted killing.

Frau Edith Steingehirn

Thanks for the visit, Prof. Diamond, and the link to your article. I've saved it to read tomorrow. What a notion but not surprising.

Just compare Dubya on the flight deck with Pres. Gutsy in the situation room.

el polacko

of course, bush didn't need to (and didn't)wear a "codpiece"...the man has BALLS. there is no prosthetic known to man that could make barack look butch.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

He wonders why his daring do of sitting in the WH isn't getting bigger bumps? Well, perhaps the South has been a little busy with tornadoes and now a flood that is supposed to make Katrina and New Orleans child's play in comparison. You think Texans like that he refused to provide disaster relief for their wildfires? Or that anyone did not notice that he flew right over the flood area on his way to a fundraiser and nary a word?

Does he think that gas prices bordering on $5 a gal and over in some areas isn't hurting his low income favs? One of the young guys who hangs out here once in awhile has a 50 mile roundtrip to work each day to earn $9.50 an hour and it took him a year to find that job. He can't afford to give it up, he can't afford to move, and it is getting harder and harder to fill up his tank so that he can get to work.

I give him the credit for giving the final Go Order, but I temper that credit with the knowledge he did not do it for America or to avenge so many deaths at the hand of bin Laden, he did it because he figured no matter how it turned out, he could spin it to make himself look good.

Barbara

Sorry to feed the troll, but I am very angry.

There is no such thing as an "imaginary" son or daughter fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan. Our soldiers are real people who chose to serve their country at this difficult and dangerous time.

I have a real nephew fighting in Afghanistan right now, and cleo's obnoxious statements are offensive in the extreme.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Fox News:

Under pressure from dozens of House lawmakers, the Navy reverses its decision that would have allowed chaplains to perform same-sex unions pending the full repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell.'

Janet

Here's a good quote -
""...Nobody voted for this. Nobody wants this. Nobody wants a declining United States. Nobody wants a declining US economy. Nobody wants rising food prices. Nobody wants rising gasoline prices. Nobody wants the price of their home to be worth less than their mortgage. Why would we reelect the guy who did it all?..."

from Rush Limbaugh on May 9,2011

Chubby

Sara

((he did it because he figured no matter how it turned out, he could spin it to make himself look good))

If ithe mission had failed, I don't think he could have spun it to make himself look good. His poll numbers were terrible and he figured, what have I got to lose? --knowing that if it failed he could kiss all hope of a second term bye bye. His dice roll worked out for him and he is now milking it for all it's worth. He is reminds me of a big winner in Vegas who celebrates and spends all his winnings almost overnight ...

Fen

"the President of the United States was not informed of the engagement order – it did not originate from him, and for several hours after the order had been given and the special ops forces were preparing for action into Pakistan from their position in Afghanistan, Daley successfully kept Obama and Jarrett insulated from that order."

http://socyberty.com/issues/white-house-insider-obama-hesitated-panetta-issued-order-to-kill-osama-bin-laden/#ixzz1M2dN3Glz

sbw

Barbara, others have had occasion to slap the trolls so silly they have no idea which way is up. The occasional comment reminds later readers that we ignore by choice, whereupon they can only feel sad at trollish deranged and uncivil behavior.

Extraneus

If ithe mission had failed, I don't think he could have spun it to make himself look good.

Nobody associates Obama with the military. He could have just blamed them, been very disappointed, and moved on. In fact, they'd still be calling it gutsy.

I don't think there was a big downside.

Chubby

if the "insider" is telling the truth (big IF) they is not doing Hillary or Panetta any favors because covering up the president's dithering and letting him get away with his gloryhounding is not exactly admirable

Ext

I don't think that would have worked out for him. His numbers were in a death spiral which he has managed to correct, but a failure would have ended in a big crash.

Chubby

not "they is" -- "they are"

Porchlight

Chubby,

I think Panetta made it clear that if he didn't give the go ahead, voters would find out about it.

"Failed to try" hurts more than "tried and failed." He didn't have much of a choice.

fdcol63

" ... Why would we reelect the guy who did it all? ..."

Why would Americans elect this guy in the first place?

There was ample evidence BEFORE the election that Obama was a Marxist-Socialist, anti-American / anti-Western / anti-Semitic, anti-business, terrorist-sympathizing, pro-Muslim, community agitator steeped in black separation theology who promised that energy prices would soar due to his cap and trade policies.

Yet Americans elected him anyway.

Rick Ballard

Steve Diamond's piece is very interesting. I believe I would place the Wookie alongside ValJar and BOzo in the multiculti troika riding in the front seat of the administration clown car. I doubt that Indecider Man (new inaction figure) ever fails to make a decision without clearing it with the Dancing Wookie.

Cecil Turner

Obama's attempts to steal the credit for the SEALs raid is counterproductive and stupid. If he wanted to share credit (for others' accomplishments), he could do it with fulsome praise and lots of modesty on his own (modest) role. The idea that he was somehow responsible for key planning is past ridiculous, and his aides' harping on it just makes the whole lot look petty and narcissistic.

Cecil Turner

Okay, I give up. Here ya go, Mr President. Can we move on now?

MayBee

The first day after the announcement, the Obamaites were reporting that a plan had come to Obama, he had asked tough questions, the military reworked the plans, Obama asked searing questions. They do this with everything. I still remember when Obama's aides tried to turn him into a hero for avoiding a big argument between China and France at some summit. France wanted to hold China responsible for something, and Obama managed to "solve" the problem by issuing a statement instead. Then there was the time Obama was turned into the savior of the Copenhagen summit by getting everyone to agree to let him release a statement saying they'd agreed to set a future time to start to look into things. This after China and India had been caught hiding from him after telling him they'd left.

Overpraise has long been their trademark. I hope republican consultants are paying attention to that.

Janet

I hope republican consultants are paying attention to that.

Only if Pops & some other JOMers are republican consultants.

Captain Hate

Janet, Duke and Duke have TOP MEN on the case and don't need to be diverted from the game plan that worked so well in 2006 and 2008 until those parvenus and riff raff in the Tea Party gave their unwelcome advice.

narciso

LOL, Captain, I have too much experience with the Southern branch down here, really 'winning' as with our legislative session.

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