Having Buried The War Powers Resolution...

With the War Powers Resolution laid to rest, Matthew Zeitlin of TNR explains how Obama can ignore the debt ceiling.  Bush and Cheney never thought of these arguments, but Bush and Cheney weren't laboring in pursuit of noble liberal goals, either.  

I sort of hope Obama does crash through the debt ceiling, just so we can read the Times editorial endorsing his new concept of the rule of law.

Comments

[narciso]

Intriguing but when China 'goes Chili Palmer' trying to recover the Vig, that's when the game ends

[bgates]

Ah, "standing" - is there anything it can't do in service of tyranny?

[Old Lurker]

Were that to happen, as DoT pointed out on War Powers, the remedy is impeachment. Screw standing.

[glasater]

Here is a link to a lengthy article from Zerohedge that is pretty interesting:

So the first draft of the Constitution was put forward with the same power that the Continental Congress had, and there was a debate. You look at Madison's notes, and it was a rather vociferous debate, and they threw out the words "emit bills," so that now that provision of the Constitution says, "Congress shall have the power to borrow money on the credit of the United States." It says nothing about emitting bills.

Well, by hypothesis, if the power is proposed and then stricken from the final version, it doesn’t exist, right? You don’t need to be a Harvard law school graduate to understand that.

It is an interesting conversation but as I mention the article is long.

[Old Lurker]

Our problem, Glasater, is that the sane readers here already think the Constitution means what it says. Obama and his pals simply do no believe that and they act accordingly.

[narciso]

I don't know, whenever I go to Zerohedge, it's hard to wash off the free range crazy,
from over there.

[matt]

It should be cause for high dudgeon that the Left is continuously attempting to erode the Constitution in such a intellectually bankrupt and indefensible cause as raw political power. This is Tammany cloned with Stalin.

As to your comment last night, CH, the battle of ideas between West and East uses different scorecards.

The teachings of the the Vedas or the Buddha may lead to enlightenment, and Lao Tzu and Confucius may have offered us frameworks for our role in the cosmos, but they offer only static and limited answers to the questions of metaphysics, ethics, political philosophy, logic, or aesthetics that are the foundations for what our world is today.

[sammy small]

The left is not only attempting (and succeeding) to erode the terms in the Constitution, but also other non-liberal institutions. It looks like NY will now overturn the 3000 year-old definition of marriage as well.

So gays have absconded with the term. Fine, but there should be a new term defining classic marriage that traditionalists can use, and it should be legally applied just like the old term "marriage".

[Danube of Thought]

Zeitlin's argument had never even occurred to me, but I can't say I think it is flawed. I am confused, though, about the notion that the money owed has already been "appropriated" by Congress. How and when?

I would dearly love to see the president do exactly that. Should make for great fun in 2012.

[narciso]

Ah Zasloff, the Journolister, who just wanted to yank Fox right off the air, 'what could possibly go wrong' by following his sage advice.

[Danube of Thought]

Disregard Zasloff. If Treasury simply continues to issue new debt, who can stop them and how?

And until the issue is resolved, who would purchase that debt and what sort of interest would they demand?

[narciso]

It would indicate just a further sign that
'we're burning our house down, good luck if
they take our bills at 10% interest rates, in that circumstance, I don't put it past him though. The wild card is China,

[anduril]

Rule of Law? Please--rule of money! That's what America is all about. And the NYT explains how it works, via Business Insider: These Are The 3 Hedge Fund Heroes That Helped Make Gay Marriage Legal In New York.

Right at the top of the story is anecdote about Cuomo secretly meeting with some big time GOP donors on the issue:

But the donors in the room — the billionaire Paul Singer, whose son is gay, joined by the hedge fund managers Cliff Asness and Dan Loeb — had the influence and the money to insulate nervous senators from conservative backlash if they supported the marriage measure. And they were inclined to see the issue as one of personal freedom, consistent with their more libertarian views.

Singer, Asness, and Loeb... all three are mega names, and today are heroes of the cause, having made out six-figure donations totaling $1 million.

Personal freedom. Right. As in: I've got the money to buy a legislature so why shouldn't I be personally free to do so--for my son's big "wedding" bash. That's libertarianism for ya, and if ya don't like it you can leave.

[Old Lurker]

When taxes approached 100% in the UK in the late sixties, rich people there regarded that as having broken the compact on which they paid taxes voluntarily. After that it was every man for himself as they raced for the exits to export the family money. Laws were promptly passed to make that illegal and by all accounts the outflow did not slow at all.

I would suggest that there are many similarly situated folks in the US who have never even considered cheating on their taxes but who would interpret ignoring the debt ceiling so the President can give money to his supporters so it can be repaid by taxes on others as precisely the sort of breach of compact that the UK experienced.

And that toothpaste never gets back in the tube.

[Danube of Thought]

Conceptually, it does seem to me that the debt ceiling is a restriction the congress places on itself, but which may noy be binding on the Executive. On a similar note, the congress passed a law requiring itself to submit an annual budget, but it hasn't bothered to do so in 2 1/2 years.

[Danube of Thought]

Disregard my last comment. On its face, it's a limit the congress places on Treasury.

[Captain Hate]

So gays have absconded with the term. Fine, but there should be a new term defining classic that traditionalists can use, and it should be legally applied just like the old term "marriage".

They haven't absconded with the term unless you're talking about "gay", which is unforgivable enough on its own. You can call the outcome of the new law in New York "gay marriage", "pretend marriage", "sham marriage" or whatever other term you feel like using. Or is that a hate crime?

Most of the homos don't want marriage anyway; they've been co-opted by the left in their quest to destabilize western institutions without even realizing it. Or without caring about it. Next will be polygamy, probably in the form of wanting some mooooslim to be able to bring over his multiple wives (BOzo is the product of polygamy; reflect on that for a while) and everybody will be called "haters" for not wishing to allow their "pursuit of happiness". Anybody saying that won't happen is being terminally obtuse.

When it really will get interesting is when the lefties are faced with choosing between the mooooslim's hatred of homos and the homos. I wouldn't want to be in the homos stylish footwear when that choice is made by their former best friends who are overly chummy with thugs.

[JackisBack!]

I plan on using this concept to lower my handicap 4 strokes. I have also sent it to Joe Maddon at the Rays. They can now invoke the rules from 1860 and call an out if they catch the ball on the first bounce. Shheesh!

[anduril]

Here's some good news on the multi-culti front, via FR:

The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism

The Dutch government says it will abandon the long-standing model of multiculturalism that has encouraged Muslim immigrants to create a parallel society within the Netherlands.

A new integration bill which Dutch Interior Minister Piet Hein Donner presented to parliament on June 16, reads: "The government shares the social dissatisfaction over the multicultural society model and plans to shift priority to the values of the Dutch people. In the new integration system, the values of the Dutch society play a central role. With this change, the government steps away from the model of a multicultural society."

The letter continues: "A more obligatory integration is justified because the government also demands that from its own citizens. It is necessary because otherwise the society gradually grows apart and eventually no one feels at home anymore in the Netherlands. The integration will not be tailored to different groups."

The new integration policy will place more demands on immigrants. For example, immigrants will be required to learn the Dutch language, and the government will take a tougher approach to immigrants who ignore Dutch values or disobey Dutch law.

The government will also stop offering special subsidies for Muslim immigrants because, according to Donner, "it is not the government's job to integrate immigrants." The government will introduce new legislation that outlaws forced marriages and will also impose tougher measures against Muslim immigrants who lower their chances of employment by the way they dress. More specifically, the government will impose a ban on face-covering Islamic burqas as of January 1, 2013.

If necessary, the government will introduce extra measures to allow the removal of residence permits from immigrants who fail their integration course.

OK, get ready for this next part:

As expected, Muslim organizations in Holland have been quick to criticize the proposals.

And there's lots more at the link.

[Rob Crawford]

I would suggest that there are many similarly situated folks in the US who have never even considered cheating on their taxes but who would interpret ignoring the debt ceiling so the President can give money to his supporters so it can be repaid by taxes on others as precisely the sort of breach of compact that the UK experienced.

No. I would consider a president that ignored the Congressional authority on the budget to be a usurper.

LUN

[Rob Crawford]

When it really will get interesting is when the lefties are faced with choosing between the mooooslim's hatred of homos and the homos.

What choice? They'll go with whoever's most violent.

[glasater]

Nice flickr photostream, Rob.

[Jane]

It is going to be a problem Capn'. The left will throw the gays under the bus in a heartbeat.

[Ranger]

The legalizing of Gay Marrage may create an interesting situation for a lot of gay couples who have been enjoying the economic benifits of marrage, without having to actually commit (via Althouse):

"Winning the right to marry is one thing; being forced to marry is quite another."

If the rollout of marriage equality in other states, like Massachusetts, is any guide, lesbian and gay people who have obtained health and other benefits for their domestic partners will be required by both public and private employers to marry their partners in order to keep those rights. In other words, “winning” the right to marry may mean “losing” the rights we have now as domestic partners, as we’ll be folded into the all-or-nothing world of marriage.

I hope all those people who lose their health insurance and other "marrage" benifits over the next year in New York understand that it was "worth" the trade off.

Oh well. They had a great deal going for a while, but now gays will have to be just like everybody else.

[jimmyk]

In other words, “winning” the right to marry may mean “losing” the rights we have now as domestic partners, as we’ll be folded into the all-or-nothing world of marriage.

I'm not seeing what the down side is here. They can go to a justice of the peace and get "married" for $50 or whatever and keep their benefits. And when they tire of each other and move on to someone else they can get a quickie "divorce" for a few hundred dollars.

[Rob Crawford]

Nice flickr photostream, Rob.

Thanks!

I appear to have run into the limits of a free Flickr account... Oh, well, they're also up on Picasa, LUN. My favorite 250 photos out of the 4200 I took.

[Extraneus]

One thing the happy couples will find out is that their new spouse is now the 100% beneficiary of their 401k plans, unless the spouse signs a waiver that allows the plan holder to designate other beneficiaries.

I believe this law was Geraldine Ferraro's claim to fame.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

but they offer only static and limited answers to the questions of metaphysics, ethics, political philosophy, logic, or aesthetics that are the foundations for what our world is today.

Matt, honest, that's nonsense. The fact that you're ignorant of it doesn't make it go away.

Just off hand, Panini formalized grammars about a thousand years before Chomsky and Backes, the Bakhshali Manuscript shows the Hindu mathmaticians using zero and negative numbers, and computing square roots, as early as the 2nd century BCE -- when the Greeks were still saying that irrational numbers were impossible -- and had developed computation of power series by the 15th C, a couple hundred years before Newton et al. Asanga, Vasudhatu, and especially Dignaga developed both logic and epistemology in detail in about the 4th century CE; Kung-zi (Confucius) and Meng-zi (Mencius) developed extensive works in political philosophy. (Read Kung-zi some time: he was actually quite a "conservative" in the sense we think of it.)

You cannot name a topic in philosophy -- outside of possibly some strictly theological questions, like whether angels have physical dimension -- that wasn't as seriously considered in East Asia as in the West.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

but there should be a new term defining classic marriage that traditionalists can use, and it should be legally applied just like the old term "marriage".

Civil Union?

[glasater]

Rob-

That Hadrian's Retreat panorama is vey nice! Didn't want to post the link without your permission.

[anduril]

I'm not seeing what the down side is here.

The down side is what happens to the society that tolerates this BS, that sanctions a lie, and that thinks that it will have the moral fibre to defend itself against those who disagree strongly.

[Thomas Collins]

I don't think Obama need ignore the debt limit if it is not raised. Obama could simply tell the folks cutting the Fed checks (or wiring the Fed funds) that bondholders get paid first. If there is a shortfall in payments to other folks, IOUs would have to be issued.

[glasater]

TC-

Regarding your scenario -- Krauthammer says this maneuver would be disastrous for the R's.

[anduril]

The teachings of the the Vedas or the Buddha may lead to enlightenment, and Lao Tzu and Confucius may have offered us frameworks for our role in the cosmos, but they offer only static and limited answers to the questions of metaphysics, ethics, political philosophy, logic, or aesthetics that are the foundations for what our world is today.

Some of this is addressed in the site that I link to.

Just off hand, Panini formalized grammars about a thousand years before Chomsky and Backes,

And no grammatical studies were conducted anywhere else in the world before Chomsky and Backes?

the Bakhshali Manuscript shows the Hindu mathmaticians using zero and negative numbers, and computing square roots, as early as the 2nd century BCE -- when the Greeks were still saying that irrational numbers were impossible

And that's the sum total of mathematics? The Greeks were doing nothing worthwhile in the field?

-- and had developed computation of power series by the 15th C, a couple hundred years before Newton et al.

The point is not that the Indians were not doing advanced math compared to the rest of the world, it's what did they do with their knowledge, and why did the West do so much more? This gets to the heart of "staticism" and the difference in the approaches of East and West.

Asanga, Vasudhatu, and especially Dignaga developed both logic and epistemology in detail in about the 4th century CE; Kung-zi (Confucius) and Meng-zi (Mencius) developed extensive works in political philosophy. (Read Kung-zi some time: he was actually quite a "conservative" in the sense we think of it.)

So why did the rest of the world end up coming to the West to learn about their own histories? That says something about those cultures.

The conflation of Confucian "conservatism" with Western conservatism is a fundamental misunderstanding that points to an inability to appreciate the nature of the differences.

[Chuby]

I think "natural union" would be more appropriate than civil union, but that nomenclature would totally freak out the homosexuals who want to marry, because, you know, you can always use a lampshade as a parachute.

[Rob Crawford]

That Hadrian's Retreat panorama is vey nice! Didn't want to post the link without your permission.

No prob.

People keep asking which was my favorite place on the trip. Almost impossible to pick one, but I settled on Hadrian's Villa being the answer to that question. Amazing place, even if it's been stripped clean of all the statues and marble.

If I ever have the money, I'd like to recreate parts of it. Maybe the "summer dining room".

[Thomas Collins]

It might be, glasater. Obama, his official minions and his unofficial ones in MSM would blame the GOP for causing non-bondholder individuals to whom the Feds owe money to suffer. The GOP needs to keep hammering on the fact that it is Obama who is refusing to agree to necessary spending cuts. The problem is that RINOs will undercut this message.

[glasater]

OK Rob-

So here's the link to Rob's photo of Hadrian's Villa:

http://flic.kr/p/9WKys6

[Chubby]

In my last post, I spelled my own nic wrong. But what does it matter? Names that have specific meanings designating specific entities aren't relevant any more in this postmodern world.

[Jane]

I'm not seeing what the down side is here.

Actually it is pretty complicated. For one thing, they have to get married in every state. If one person works in one state and one another, they probably have to marry in both to get benefits. There are also very weird tax implications. Some of them are very beneficial and some punitive, which is probably true for everyone.

So far Amy has a Vt civil unions and two marriages. She considers her civil union as her anniversary. That was the committment, the rest was because of the failure to honor one state's civil union in another.

I'd dare her to get married in NY, but I think she is pretty busy with the tornado.

[glasater]

TC-

I've heard that the group Karl Rove has put together -- Crossroads -- is doing (?) a 20 mil ad buy pushing that very idea aimed at I believe the swing states.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

And no grammatical studies were conducted anywhere else in the world before Chomsky and Backes?

Formal grammers? No. That's why we talk about a "Chomsky" hierarchy. And with Panini, we're talking not just "before" but 400 years BCE -- 2400 years before formal grammars in the West.

And that's the sum total of mathematics? The Greeks were doing nothing worthwhile in the field?

Matt, you're being a nincompoop. you claimed that East Asia didn't do serious philosophy, metaphysics, epistemology etc; I enumerated examples of just that. That constitutes a disproof by counter-example. Did the Greeks do some too? Sure. What's more, contrary to what most people realize, the Greeks, especially the Macedonians, and the East Asians had plenty of interaction and cross-pollination going on.

As far as your "staicism", you might ask the same about the Romans, or the Greeks, or half a dozen other cultures. The answer, of course, is that even advanced cultures eventually collapse. When Rome collapsed, it took 1300 years for civil engineering to catch up. Why were the Europeans in the 16th Century such dummies? Why did Europeans have to turn to the Moor Averroes to find out about Aristotle and Plato?

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Oh, one more:

So why did the rest of the world end up coming to the West to learn about their own histories? That says something about those cultures.

What on earth are you talking about? People in East Asia hardly had to come to the West to learn about these things -- Panini's grammar has been in use continuously to teach Sanskrit -- you could argue that Panini's grammar defined Sanskrit -- for two and a half millennia. Kung-zi certainly was never lost; the arithmetical sutras were known in India when the raj came in.

Your whole argument is coming down to "I didn't know about them so they must not have been important."

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Names that have specific meanings designating specific entities aren't relevant any more in this postmodern world.

Oh, very good.

Now, ask yourself what that entity you identify with your name really is? Consider, for example, that every atom in your body at 10 has been exchanged for another atom by now.

[Chubby]

((Consider, for example, that every atom in your body at 10 has been exchanged for another atom by now))

and?

last time all my atoms refreshed I still knew where I was born, where I lived, and recognized my family. we're not amnesiacs as a result of atom exchanges, are we? We don't throw away all the life lessons we've learned since our inception on this earth. Even if some of our atoms permanantly disappear in the form of an amputation, we are no less cognizant beings.

[anduril]

As far as your "staicism", you might ask the same about the Romans, or the Greeks, or half a dozen other cultures.

Indeed you might, and your answers might be remarkably similar--which would constitute an insight. The assertion that "even advanced cultures eventually collapse," is hardly an answer, since the question is not one of collapse but rather why advanced knowledge did not lead to more widespread applications in technology, as well as why a knowledge explosion occurred in the West unlike anything that occurred elsewhere.

Why did Europeans have to turn to the Moor Averroes to find out about Aristotle and Plato?

Several reasons. One important reason was that the Muslims cut off Western Europe from the Middle East, where the Syrian Christians and Jews were preserving and translating the Greek heritage, at the same time that the West was devastated by repeated invasions of barbarians. Thus the Muslim world had access that the West did not have. In that regard, it's probably significant that Muslim philosophy developed on the periphery of the Islamic world--Persia, Baghdad (areas with a long history of civilization and learning) and Spain--rather than in the Sunni heartland. The Greeks themselves, while preserving a fairly advanced form of civil engineering had largely lost interest in Aristotle.

More to the point, why was it that the Europeans, immediately upon acquisition of texts of the Greek philosophers--which they avidly sought--commenced critical studies that determined that important portions of the Aristotelian writings were in fact Neoplatonic in origin. These critical studies, which the Muslims had never undertaken, led to huge advances in the understanding of Aristotle and were the beginning of critical studies in many other fields, in which Europeans still lead the world. That development is a sign of a new way of looking at the world. It's also why Western universities still lead the world in all fields.

[anduril]

Critical studies of cultures is what's at issue. The Europeans, while circling the globe, killing and looting, also took extraordinary efforts to learn about the peoples they came in contact with--European scholars did. The Indians understood Sanskrit, but it was Europeans who came to an understanding of the Indo-European family of languages, and of comparative linguistics. That's a whole different way of looking at the world.

[Thomas Collins]

CHACO, c'mon. Do you really think the problem of definition with respect to the day to day human hustling and bustling with each other (and the difficult questions of what kind of continuity is necesary to keep human societies functioning, and what kinds of changes are consistent with the idea of respect for each person's humanity) is really informed by that talking point reference to atoms and being? Whether I agree or disagree with you on the various topics you discuss here, I really respect the rigor with which you approach things. But that atom reference is college freshman philosophy 101 BS.

[Thomas Collins]

Thanks for mentioning that Crossroads initiative, glasater. I had no idea Crossroads was undertaking it. The initiative (summarized in the LUNed article) looks pretty good.

[Captain Hate]

TC, that linky doesn't work. If Rove delivers on that I'll cease my relentless criticism of him for at least a short period of time, which may be extended.

[Thomas Collins]

Thanks, CH. I am going to try again.

Note that the Dems are already attacking the ads, which is an indication the ads are pretty good.

[MarkO]

What, exactly, is an intern at the NR? And, why would anyone spend time discussing the ideas of such a creature?

[Captain Hate]

That worked, TC; very impressive work although I'm wondering about the states included in it (are they considering Ohio and Indiana locks, for example? If so maybe the landslide is on). If this is the quality of the opposition:

The Obama campaign responded that it was "no surprise that Karl Rove would produce an ad that clouds over the failed economic policies that led us into the recession and ignores the president's efforts that have put us on a path to recovery."

"Maybe that's because the Republican candidates are proposing a return to those same failed policies of the past — rolling back Wall Street oversight, extending tax cuts for the richest Americans on the backs of middle class families and ending Medicare as we know it," said campaign spokesman Ben LaBolt.

Bill Burton, senior strategist for Priorities USA, an independent Democratic group that plans to launch its own campaign supporting Obama's reelection, said in a statement: "Not content with the grave economic crisis he helped to leave our country with, Karl Rove now wants to stop President Obama from fixing it."

I can sleep easier because if that bullsh (to use a Tammy on-air abbreviation) flies with the electorate we're doomed as a country anyway.

[narciso]

Here's another shorter LUn from the Chicago Tribune

[Rick Ballard]

CH,

I would imagine that Indiana and Ohio will get a refined version once the testing on the initial pass is complete. Ohio, while less expensive than Florida, isn't cheap. It's interesting to see Montana on the list - Tester is obviously being targeted early.

I would anticipate rather heavy buys in Ohio. It's rather important that Sherrod Brown get the hook on this pass. No need to having him stinking up the Senate for as long as Feingold did.

[narciso]

There must have ergot in the reservoir that year, they picked Brown, Rich, yes I know
the state party torpedoed itself completely that year, so much, even Blackwell couldn't save it.

[daddy]

Wonderful photos Rob. Thanks for posting that link.

[rse]

chaco-

Everything I have read says that the bureaucrats in the East, the credentialed elite, were threatened by the knowledge they possessed. They started stifling innovation to protect the status quo which they controlled. That's what shut down the ability of their marvelous inventions to become a spontaneous generator.

Isn't that the dialogue we are having?

Aren't we worried, with good cause, that the West is trying to control what the masses do and think?

This is a site with commentary from people with remarkable knowledge and experiences. Many of us recognize that there are evils presenting themselves that have raised their heads before.

Aren't we trying to talk so we can recognize previous manifestations and discuss those consequences?

[Ignatz]

--Matt, you're being a nincompoop.--

You might want to double check who you're calling a nincompoop.

[Porchlight]

Why were the Europeans in the 16th Century such dummies?

Yeah, they were real dummies. Give me a break.

[Melinda Romanoff]

rse-

Somethings up with Chaco, so I'm going to bug him in the late AM.

[Danube of Thought]

Charlie, I suggest you blow it out your ass and call it a night.

[Captain Hate]

It's rather important that Sherrod Brown get the hook on this pass. No need to having him stinking up the Senate for as long as Feingold did.

Giving Brown his walking papers has been priority #1 for maryrose and me since last November. Narc, the state party completely lost its mind during the Taft years, a product of Duke and Duke's TOP MEN.

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

What the hell are you guys arguing about now?

We are doomed if we ignore the lesson that a nation's moral decay will take it down. We are doomed if we ignore the lesson that withholding knowledge from the masses, leaving it only in the hands of the elite, brings on a very dark age, and we've learned that dictators and totalitarian governments kill millions and only benefit the elite. And we've learned that strength is the best weapon.

And most of all we should have learned the lesson that freedom of expression brings enlightenment.

[glasater]

TC-
Thanks for finding the LA Times link to reinforce the Crossroads info.

[Janet]

Amen, Sara. My husband pointed out a quote to me tonight...
"Stop quoting laws to us. We carry swords."
Plutarch - Life of Pompey,x,2

[Sara (Pal2Pal)]

Janet:

The Motivational Quote for Today happens to also be Plutarch:

"The whole life of man is but a point of time; let us enjoy it."

[sbw]

I love the extra insight ChaCo often adds.

It’s just that some of the derogatory epithets he also includes don't add insight and could constructively be left on the cutting room floor.

[jorod]

Gotta love the liberals. They never let integrity get in the way of an issue.

[Endah]

Wonderful photos Rob