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June 17, 2011

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Comments

steve

So is this a case of the broken clock being right? Or, given that Carter is wrong 96% of the time, is it cause to rethink your position on the matter?

note: no typo, rounded up and calculated using military time.

Rob Crawford

Careful, this is a supporter of Chavez, Hezbollah, etc. We can't be sure what he means by "non-violent".

Captain Hate

Maybe in crack-nation, Dhimmi Earl is a good president. The only reason this old coot hasn't gone the full Weiner is that he's too addled to learn technology. Maybe he should write some more horrible poetry.

Thomas Collins

This is a lot closer call than the drug decriminalization advocates maintain. The increased drug use that will result from ending prohibition is a societal cost that I think is way underestimated. See LUN for a link to a book that gives a balanced look at the subject. There may be updated analyses that have some out since Goode's work. I haven't checked out the status of the debate for a few years. However, I think Goode is a better place to start than Jimmy Carter.

Tobacco is not so easy to grow.

The ability for simple people to turn yeasties loose in carbohydrate mixtures and capture and purify the little beasties' excretions is what ended Prohibition. The ability for simple people to grow Bud in the dark spaces behind their bathtubs will ameliorate some of this Drug War craziness.
============

JackisBack!

Marquee group of Lefty, Dustin and Rory on Espn now. Hole no. 2, par 3. Lefty hit nice iron in over the pin for an upcoming birdie. Maybe? Not.

Thomas Collins

In any event, my youngest graduates from college today. The weather is currently just fine in Evanston, Illinois, and I hope it stays that way. Congrats to all JOMers who have a graduating Wildcat relative today!

Jane (sit on the couch or save your country)

GO YOUNG TC! Nice job! We are all cheering for you.

Clarice

Congrats, TC..Let's hope the speakers aren't too awful.

Extraneus

That Conan O'Brien speech at Dartmouth was pretty great.

link

Extraneus

windandsea posted a link to a Stratfor analysis on the Mexican drug cartels in the previous thread. link

The Stratfor writer tries to make the argument that these vast and growing criminal enterprises would continue to thrive in the event of drug legalization, since they've diversified into other areas such as kidnapping, human smuggling, prositution, etc. I didn't think it was a very convincing argument. Drug income surely has to dwarf that of these other enterprises.

Melinda Romanoff

TC-

You're here?

And no call?

Hmmph.

iron308

Funny how some laws (narcotics) are so heavily enforced and others are ignored (immigration).

Extraneus

Overall, the Stratfor piece was excellent. It explained the political ramifications of the various Mexican strategies (e.g., accommodation vs. confrontation), laid out how the various cartels have split and merged, etc.

Rob Crawford

Tobacco is not so easy to grow.

Actually, from what I recall from discussions in college, tobacco and pot are about equal in difficulty.

Rob Crawford

The Stratfor writer tries to make the argument that these vast and growing criminal enterprises would continue to thrive in the event of drug legalization, since they've diversified into other areas such as kidnapping, human smuggling, prositution, etc. I didn't think it was a very convincing argument. Drug income surely has to dwarf that of these other enterprises.

Maybe it dwarfs them now, but there's no reason to assume it always will.

Extraneus

Anyone who wonders whether Sarah Palin is planning to get into the race should watch this video from last night's interview with Judge Napolitano.

Starting at around 4:00, the discussion turns to the debates, Michelle Bachmann's qualifications to be president, etc. Sarah answers that of course Bachmann is qualified, as any of the current field would be far better than Obama, but she adds that she's not convinced the field is set. Then, at around 6:00, Mrs. Palin makes the following statement (after admitting that she imagines herself up there in the debates, while watching):

"In fairness to the electorate, they need to know what all of our records are, what it is that we have stood for..."

This followed her contention that the Republican candidates need to go after each other more than they have. [Ahem.]

Melinda Romanoff

Sara-

Not too difficult to grow, but very expensive to harvest. It must be done by hand and then cured.

Character building work for unwary teenage boys.

Danube of Thought

Magnificent farewell editorial from the infallible NY Post to Anthony Weiner.

MarkO

Weiner using the words of the great intellectual, LeBron James, and talking about his "talents." The face, and package, of the Democrat Party.

narciso

The elephant in the room, was how the culture had legitimated drug use atarting in the 70s
culminating with this example from the top:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,946906-2,00.html

Thomas Collins

Mel, I definitely want to speak with you. I would love to go saloon carousing with you, but the grad has all these activities and dinners planned. But give me a call at 1-781-247-3163. If I don't answer, please leave me a message with your number.

I think Colbert is speaking. Not my cup of tea, but I guess he is popular with the Millenials.

Off to Ryan Field (it's a 10:30 am graduation).

This Bud's for You.

Which grows wild as a weed over a greater range? Your college discussions may well have been correct though, Rob, as I'm neither agronomist nor particularly accomplished at growing things. I like marigolds, iris and lilies. I've a very nice Vinca Cora starting now.
=================

Neo

How did TM miss this story


When Weiner (D-Queens, Brooklyn) was photographed by the Daily News fleeing the Capitol in his Nissan Pathfinder, it was clear the July 2007 registration sticker in his window was expired, and there was no inspection sticker to be seen. Weiner, through a staffer, said the 1988 Nissan Pathfinder was registered in New York State.
Not so, said the state Department of Motor Vehicles.
The New York license plate bolted on Weiner’s Pathfinder – US Congress 9 – had expired as of 2006, according to the DMV.

More of this law for thy and not for me

Rob Crawford

Which grows wild as a weed over a greater range?

Wild tobacco is common, and there are even some decorative varieties. Nicotiana flowers are tobaccos.

Both plants need tending to be "at their best", and for both the tending is manual and labor-intensive.

My family grew tobacco when I was a kid; I lucked out when they quit before I was old enough to help with the topping and cutting. Pushing through close-packed, sticky-leaved tobacco plants when it's 95+ degrees and 100% humidity, swinging a razor-sharp hatchet -- while other people you can't see through the plants are doing the same... Oh, and during cutting you're bent over to swing at the base of the plant, and then you have to impale the plant (and not your arm!) on a spear...

Extraneus

Unless he thinks there aren't any cops who'd like the honor, Weiner had better get his ass down to the DMV ASAP.

JOMer

test

Melinda Romanoff

Rob-

I see you are just as familiar with the harvest, but we used one of these:

Chubby

Would't ending the war on drugs at street level translate to a big victory for druglords in countries like Afghanistan?

Make that 'a fencerow'.

I yield to greater knowledge, Rob, except that the hardest day's work I ever did was chopping sunflowers out of fencerows with a corn knife.
===========

Stephanie

We refer to it in this area as 'pulling tobacco.' We used to sit in a buggy type contraction behind the tractor that had benches on either side and the plants would be in the middle. You cut the leaves at the base and tossed them into the bin that was following. In 102 degree weather. In August. In South Georgia. Did I mention the 90% humidity? Awesome way to get a tan if you could put enough DEET on to keep the bugs away.

Melinda Romanoff

Ok, I may pass hit in the JOM "putting face to name" contest.

Hah!

jimmyk

I know I'm in a minority here, but I think legalization is the way to go. Just as the murder rate spiked during prohibition and came back down, I think the gains from reduced violence would offset the costs of higher usage (which are mostly borne by the user anyway). There could be taxation and regulation (things I'm usually opposed to) to inhibit use, provided they weren't so onerous as to keep the illegal market alive.

As for the cartels finding other ways to stay in business: No doubt, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be much smaller.

Jane (sit on the couch or save your country)

JUst for the record Mel, I think I've met more people than both of you. But I bet Clarice is the winner, AND we all go to her.

Danube of Thought

I thought Al Gore gave the most definitive speech ever on growing and harvesting tobacco.

Ratf***ing is second nature

If you think the Nixon Gang had 'dirty tricks' wait till the GOP gets momentum into 2012.

"Steve Benen, Political Animal
Blog

June 17, 2011 12:00 PM
Friday’s campaign round-up
Today’s installment of campaign-related news items that won’t necessarily generate a post of their own, but may be of interest to political observers:

* We don’t yet know when there will be a special election in New York’s 9th congressional district, but Nate Silver explains why the Democrat will go into the contest as the favorite and why Republicans should keep expectations low.

* On a related note, whoever wins Anthony Weiner’s seat shouldn’t get too comfortable in Washington — the district is likely to be eliminated as part of New York’s redistricting process.

* Mitt Romney campaigned in Florida, and when he wasn’t joking with the unemployed about not having a job, he was picking up endorsements from three Florida congressmen and an influential state senator.

* Republican presidential hopeful Jon Huntsman had agreed to deliver a speech to the Republican Leadership Conference tonight in New Orleans, but he cancelled yesterday due to a bad cold. Huntsman’s wife and two daughters will attend in his place, but will not deliver a speech.

* Speaking of Huntsman, his support for civil unions is making him the favorite among gay Republicans, including GOProud.

* In Missouri, U.S. Senate candidate Sarah Steelman is distancing herself from the House Republican plan to end Medicare, and even said yesterday she “doesn’t like the idea of vouchers.” Steelman refused to say, however, whether she would have voted for or against the plan.

* Leading Senate Democrats are still trying to recruit Elizabeth Warren to run for the Senate in Massachusetts next year. Warren, who’s overseeing the establishment of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, met again with Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) this week, and hasn’t ruled out a campaign.

* Speaking of Massachusetts, Gov. Deval Patrick’s (D) approval rating is up to 54%. He’s said he doesn’t intend to run for office again, but could Patrick be persuaded to give the Senate race a second look if Warren turns the party down?

by Steve Benen
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June 17, 2011 11:25 AM
Actual election crimes
Last November, there was a fairly competitive gubernatorial race in Maryland. Late on Election Day, robocalls targeted more than Democratic 100,000 households, telling voters to “relax” and no bother voting because Dems were going to win. It was one of the most blatant examples of GOP voter-suppression in a long while.

Fortunately, those responsible got caught. (via Oliver Willis)

A senior aide and a consultant hired by former Maryland governor Robert L. Ehrlich Jr. (R) were indicted Thursday in a case stemming from thousands of anonymous robocalls placed on election night last year that suggested voters could stay home even though the polls were still open.

Paul Schurick, 54, Ehrlich’s de facto campaign manager, and Julius Henson, 62, a consultant paid by the campaign, were both charged with three counts of conspiracy to violate election laws, one count of influencing votes through fraud and one count of failing to identify the sponsor of the calls. In addition, Schurick was charged on one count of obstruction of justice.

In a statement, the Office of the Maryland State Prosecutor, which obtained the indictments from a Baltimore grand jury, said its investigation is continuing. All but one of the charges handed down Thursday carry maximum prison sentences of five years."

Ratf***ing is second nature

crap

Melinda Romanoff

JOMer-

My race is with him, alone. Not you pros.

This is only for the JOM mentally challenged, 'cause we're "special".

narciso

Right, if you disqualify the candidates, before they run, or force sealed divorce records into the open, that's a better strategy, silly rabbits.

Jane (sit on the couch or save your country)

LOL Mel - hey, when does the actually redistricting take place?

windansea

re legalization

just legalizing pot won't solve problem

going to legalize heroin, cocaine, speed too?

going to get these items legalized in europe, asia, africa, australia too?

Mexican cartels make billions selling to these markets, as well as in pirate dvds, cds, oil theft, extortion, kidnapping etc

Clarice

Jane, it's location, location, location.Sooner or later, you all follow your money to the golden medina on the Potomac.

Chubby

totally agree windansea

Legalization reminds me of pacifism--that no resistance to things that hurt people is a good thing. Just roll over and let it take over. That may be good for some individuals but it's not good for society as a whole. IMO

Love your moniker, reminds me of one of my favorite books of all time "Wind, Sand and Stars." LUN

jimmyk

Legalization reminds me of pacifism--that no resistance to things that hurt people is a good thing. Just roll over and let it take over.

That's a nice parody of the position. I can play that game too. "Oh, so we're going to make illegal everything that 'hurts people'?" The issue is where you draw a line. How do you justify legalizing alcohol and cigarettes but not at least some drugs like marijuana? And where does individual responsibility figure as opposed to the strong arm of government? How many murders does it take to offset this "good for society"? Just as being opposed to certain military actions does not make one a "pacifist."

narciso

It's more a cultural thing, that generates the demand, not economics, that's the supply side,

macphisto

even though i like marijuana, i'm not in favor of legalization of any illegal drug. i've been through this before: the simple fact is that there's at least a large percentage, and quite likely a majority, of people in the world/this country who are either too dumb or too unable to cope with the effects of intoxicants (as you can see by watching any episode of COPS) to have more intoxicants given society's imprimatur of acceptability.

the question is balancing the amount of appropriate discouragement with the amount of actual harm that the substance causes. i think it's empirically obvious that marijuana is less harmful than alcohol, so it should be sanctioned at a infraction level (i.e. traffic-ticket level) unless it's associated with conduct that can cause actual harm, e.g. DUI. if it weren't for the fact of physical addiction, i'd feel the same about opiate use; when not having to hunt for money to feed an illegal habit, opiate users are exceedingly docile. on the other hand, i would continue to sanction the use of cocaine and amphetamines at felony levels; i've seen the lives of dear friends destroyed by these drugs, and have no truck with the notion that selling cocaine is a "victimless crime." tell that to the wife of the guy i knew who had a relapse after being off the stuff for fifteen years and dropped dead of a heart attack. at least his kids are grown up, thank God.

Melinda Romanoff

Jimmyk-

Today's Journal, a restaurant story has a huge "tell" in it.

Executive Order 13522 comes to mind all over again.

macphisto

i should have said "large-scale possession and sale of cocaine and amphetamine at felony levels" above. i only had one cup of coffee.

Chubby

((How do you justify legalizing alcohol and cigarettes but not at least some drugs like marijuana))

as the old adage says, two wrongs don't make a right.

as windansea pointed out, what next?

community standards will just keep going down, with each step down, anoter step, as they have been going down--until there will be no community left

like Tammy Bruce says, it seems the cool thing now is that having a sense of right and wrong is wrong these days

Is Holland's society the polar star you want to be led by?

I know that people poo poo the great lessons of the Bible of the connection between moral decay and the dissolution of societies, but I think that is the fatal flaw of this generation. It hubristically thinks it can break rules that are tried and true and that there will never be consequences for doing that

Chubby

hi Macphisto

I didn't realize that was your position. I agree with it in many ways.

Cecil Turner

the question is balancing the amount of appropriate discouragement with the amount of actual harm that the substance causes.

The real tradeoff is between the discouragement factor versus the profitability government gives to the illegal drug trade by depressing supply. That money goes directly into smuggling/gangster/gang operations, making a significant bump in violent crime. I think it's unarguable that we're currently causing more trouble than we're stopping, but am unable to come up with a means for figuring the optimal level (or recognizing when we reach it).

Rob Crawford

We refer to it in this area as 'pulling tobacco.' We used to sit in a buggy type contraction behind the tractor that had benches on either side and the plants would be in the middle.

Sounds like our planters. Or at least what we had then.

For harvest, the stalks would be impaled on the spears, then carted back to the barn. The barns around here are mostly big, airy things -- and those that didn't also house livestock had vents that would open up about a third of the walls.

Some poor shmuck (my brothers and their friends, for us) would climb up onto the rafters and hang the spears of just-harvested tobacco plants up to dry.

Then, in mid-winter, the same shmucks would climb up to pull down the mostly-dehydrated plants. They'd be taken to a special building (the "strippin' room" -- the dropped 'g' is essential) and the leaves stripped off the stalks, then pressed together into regulation-sized bundles.

Those were re-hung for a while, then taken to the tobacco warehouse for auction.

It brought in some money, but both my parents worked full-time, as well.

macphisto

it seems like something along the lines of the medical-marijuana model works in that it allows society some degree of control and sanction...it's still neither legal nor acceptable for someone to smoke pot at a bus stop, in a restaurant, or while walking down the street (unless you live in San Francisco, but that's another story). which i think is appropriate...after all, it's not appropriate to pound a bottle of wine at the bus stop, either.

Rob Crawford

My problem with legalization is that it would leave the rest of us on the hook for supporting those who wreck their lives with drugs, without even the karmic justice of their felony convictions keeping them from voting.

Melinda Romanoff

Rob-

Not if it's taxed enough.

Self weeding.

macphisto

@ Cecil: the part of your argument that i think is flawed is the assumption that legalization will eliminate the illegal drug trade. rather, i think it's quite likely that the Federal/state/local governments would tax legalized drugs at a level high enough that illegal sales would be able to undersell the legal supply; this is almost an inevitability with marijuana given the relative ease of production and the domestic infrastructure that already exists, and if the Colombians are already buliding their own submarines i think they've shown sufficient motivation that even a reduced margin would remain worthwhile for them.

Chubby

Macphisto, you say alcohol is more dangerous than marijuana. But at least alcohol gives off lots of warnings, a major one being the odor of alcohol by which one can detect that someone's been drinking. With pot there are no such clues, so how can people protect themselves from, say, getting in a car or airplane, piloted by someone who is impaired and sky high ?

macphisto

re: taxation of legal substances: consider that in parts of America it's now actually more expensive to smoke name-brand cigarettes than it is to smoke the equivalent amount of medical marijuana in California, which is typically subject only to local/state sales tax.

Democrats

felony convictions keeping them from voting

Hah!

Cecil Turner

. . . they've shown sufficient motivation that even a reduced margin would remain worthwhile for them.

It's certainly possible to price 'em completely out of business (though I agree with you that'd be unlikely, even in the event of full legalization). But even a reduction in the margin would make things like submarines (how ludicrous is that?) unprofitable. More to the point, it'd drive the (ridiculously high) profit out of inner-city gang distribution systems, at least in theory. I doubt any significant movement is likely in the near term, though, and view this as primarily an acacemic exercise.

macphisto

@ Chubby: well, according to my significant other you can smell marijuana on someone's breath and the smell of the smoke lingers on one's clothing and effects. (if you watch Deadliest Catch on cable you may recall the drama that ensued when the captain on the Cornelia Marie claimed he smelled pot on one of the crew who's a recovering addict.) i smoked cigarettes for 40 years and had a poor sense of smell even before that, so i couldn't say. i'd be looking at behavioral cues anyway, given the poor-sense-of-smell thing and the fact that for someone to reek of alcohol enough that i'd be able to smell it without getting close enough to be rude they'd have to be WAY too drunk to drive. it's not the stinking drunks that are dangerous...they're obvious. it's the people who, like me, get too dingy to drive if they have two drinks in an hour (which is why i never do that) which isn't that detectable by smell.

Extraneus

Seems like a reasonable compromise would be to legalize pot.

Most people who like pot would just grow their own then, completely eliminating the current criminal-enterprise supply chain, and taking billions out of their hands.

FeFe

As Peter Hitchens says, "What war on drugs?" Scroll down and choose his "Drugs" index and see just how silly this notion is that the West are not already permissive to the point of "glassing" becoming a verb in the UK, and the recent Vancouver riot. We recognize the indulgence of the nanny state bankrupting our republic so let us not pretend enshrining anti-social behaviour will not cost dearly in all ways too.
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/

Were looking at non-violent offenders incarcerated at 1-3%. Nothing. Focus your energy on repeat violent gang offenders. Furthermore, if drugs are legal, there will be no imperative, moral or otherwise, to secure our border (because human trafficking sparks no action in this ying and yang -- come for a better life, and we will help you once you are more of a victim too -- grant writing, taxpayer largess, multiculti MLK dream).

FeFe

"This is the point I constantly come up against. That all these arguments, over drugs, marriage, crime, schooling, foreign affairs etc are down to which sort of country you prefer, and what price you are prepared to pay for what you prefer. As I have begun to write my next book, on the non-existent 'War on Drugs', it has become clear to me that the issue, from right back into the late 1960s, has been ' are we to be a self-controlled, restrained people who accept this as the price for the ordered, peaceful, stratified, and insular civilisation we desire, deferring immediate gratification for long-term security and solid prosperity? Or are we to be a relaxed, pleasure-seeking and unrestrained people who accept that the price of that may be more disorder, less efficiency, more chaos, a steady decline in our real wealth - and less political freedom?" --Peter Hitchens

windansea

Most people who like pot would just grow their own then, completely eliminating the current criminal-enterprise supply chain, and taking billions out of their hands.

I don't think the cartels make as much on pot as they used to, most of the bid seizures down here are coke and meth, they are less bulky and much more profitable, plus mexican pot can not compete with US and Canadian homegrown and hydroponic.

windansea

italicto

windansea

off

Rob Crawford

Most people who like pot would just grow their own then, completely eliminating the current criminal-enterprise supply chain, and taking billions out of their hands.

Most pot-smokers have neither the land nor the brains necessary to grow their own.

Extraneus

Off?

I'm sure you're right, but it would at least make a dent in their income, as well as our law enforcement expenditures.

It doesn't have to be about Mexico or cartels. There's always a story about some underground pot-growing operation in Podunk, detected via high energy bills or gas generators.

All the effort behind busts like that, and trying and imprisoning the perps, could be eliminated.

I've never cared much about the issue, just suggesting there might be a fair benefit for pretty low risk regarding pot.

FeFe

“The young, and by this I don't mean by any stretch of the imagination all the young, but I'm talking about those who claim to speak for the young, at the zenith of physical power and sensitivity, overwhelm themselves with drugs and artificial stimulants. Subtlety is lost, and fine distinctions based on acute reasoning are carelessly ignored in a headlong jump to a predetermined conclusion. Life is visceral rather than intellectual, and the most visceral practitioners of life are those who characterize themselves as intellectuals.
Education is being redefined at the demand of the uneducated to suit the ideas of the uneducated. The student now goes to college to proclaim rather than to learn. The lessons of the past are ignored and obliterated in a contemporary antagonism known as the generation gap. A spirit of national masochism prevails, encouraged by an effete corps of impudent snobs who characterize themselves as intellectuals.”
***
“A little over a week ago, I took a rather unusual step for a Vice President … I said something. … I criticized those who encourage government by street carnival and suggested it was time to stop the carousel.
“It appears that by slaughtering a sacred cow, I have triggered a holy war. I have no regrets.” --Spiro Agnew

Clarice

We could take the third way--the way of lefty pols:Demand restraint and control of others while we do whatever the hell we please,FeFe.

Chubby

((Demand restraint and control of others while we do whatever the hell we please,FeFe.))

Lefty pols have no problem at all with a generation that is soma'd up.

Chubby

"Swallowing half an hour before closing time, that second dose of soma had raised a quite impenetrable wall between the actual universe and their minds."--Aldous Huxley

Danube of Thought

Windansea takes his name from the beach at La Jolla, one of the great surfing beaches of Southern California.

I read that Saint Exuperey novel when I was learning to fly. Wonderful.

FeFe

Control immigration and you control the drug market (without any need for new legislation). A large chuck of those who are not incarcerated in the so-called "War On Drugs" are illegal aliens. Deportation or ICE is such a nightmare and resource drain that they are increasingly cut loose not just from jail but from the system at all with no record.

Why care more about foreign nationals who violate American law than about hardworking American citizens?

"I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life." --now Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor

hit and run

For those talkin' tobacco -- I'm right here in tobacco heaven (RJR is just a hop,skip and a jump away for goodness sake).

I have often wondered if I could plant a single tobacco plant (or two!) in my garden,love it with all my heart,and then harvest the leaves and make my own cigar/pipe tobacco.

But I've never done more than dream.

So.....(and this falls under the "for every single thing under the sun,there's a JOM who is an expert at it" theory)....any chance that is possible?

peter

Hit, some gardening catalogues do sell tobacco seeds. Just don't plant near tomato plants, there's a virus that tobacco plants get that kills tomatoes.

FeFe

http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2011/05/18/hooray-for-steven-levitt/
In other words, Levitt wants some help from his government in keeping his daughter off the [stripper] pole (to cite Chris Rock’s admonition to fathers).

This has led to much tut-tutting about how Levitt’s sense of morality isn’t sophisticated. It’s just so crude for public intellectuals who happen to be fathers of daughters to think more about what’s good for their daughters than what’s good for random strangers.

... Shouldn’t a just, free market morality focus on eliminating friction costs caused by the prostitution market being illegal that keep day laborers from being able to afford as many encounters with prostitutes as they would like if prostitution were legal? Etc etc …
...
But, I agree it’s not intellectually sophisticated enough, but for the opposite reason than most of the libertarians are up in arms about. I think he should be thinking not only about what’s good for his young daughter but what kind of country he’d like his daughter’s daughter and his daughter’s daughter’s daughter to be born into.

Ignatz

Tobacco and cigarettes would seem to serve as a counterpoint to the notion that legalization inevitably leads to higher usage.
Seems to me it has been the societal pressure to not smoke cigarettes more than any other factor which has led to the drastic reduction in the smoking rate.
No reason that same societal pressure would or could not also apply to other drugs. And if it didn't then maybe sociey doesn't care enough to prohibit them and the laws should reflect that.

hit and run

peter:
Hit, some gardening catalogues do sell tobacco seeds. Just don't plant near tomato plants, there's a virus that tobacco plants get that kills tomatoes.

Thanks!

Especially about the tomaters. I've got a small bed (and that's only because my neighbor tilled it for me when making his. You should see his -- it's real and it's spectacular). Just 'maters and peppers.

Will keep the tobacco out of it. Maybe plant it out back...

FeFe

Hurry up with the free Obamacare meds and medicinal pot so I won't care about the debt, Libya, crime, etc etc ...

DrJ

Hit, the tobacco mosaic virus is a real problem for tomatoes. The Mrs. does not allow me to smoke in the garden for this reason (though I think she is overly sensitive).

Rob Crawford

I have often wondered if I could plant a single tobacco plant (or two!) in my garden,love it with all my heart,and then harvest the leaves and make my own cigar/pipe tobacco.

Sure -- I'm pretty sure the federal programs restricting/subsidizing tobacco have ended, too, so the legality isn't even questionable.

Except maybe for taxes. Remember that the states and feds are jealous about taxes. Homebrewers are limited to 200 gallons for a household and home distilling is still illegal because otherwise, well, the liquor taxes wouldn't get paid. I don't know if tobacco has the same problems.

Just read up on it, first. I've heard of people who tried it and weren't pleased with the results.

daddy

Congrats to TC's Deadhorser!!!

Best of luck in the future.

Chubby

Hi Ignatz. Hope all is well with you and your trees.

((Tobacco and cigarettes would seem to serve as a counterpoint to the notion that legalization inevitably leads to higher usage.))

I would reason that out the exact opposite. When something is illegal, the laws against it are in themselves the "societal pressure." Removing the laws would in effect be removing said societal pressure and therefore usage would likely increase. And parents trying to educate their children not to indulge would not have the law on their side to bolster their reasoning.

Bush's Legacy

Paws wants to triple the Bush cuts at a cost of
7.8 Billion dollars.

"We should cut the business tax rate by more than half. I propose reducing the current rate from 35% to 15%…On the individual rates we need a simpler, fairer flatter tax system overall. I propose just two rates: 10% and 25%. Under my plan, those who currently pay no income tax would stay at a zero rate. After that, the first $50,000 of income – or $100,000 for married couples – would be taxed at 10 percent. [...]
In addition, we should eliminate altogether the capital gains tax, interest income tax, dividends tax, and the death tax?"

jimmyk

So if I don't want my daughter to smoke, I should favor making cigarettes illegal? If I don't want her to subscribe to the NY Times I should make that illegal? (Hmmm....)

Sounds like Dr. Levitt might have some issues about letting his daughter grow up and make her own decisions.

Cecil Turner

Paws wants to triple the Bush cuts at a cost of 7.8 Billion dollars.

I don't think Pawlenty is getting much love here on that score. But calling a tax cut a "cost" is fundamentally dishonest verbiage meant to obscure the difference between spending cuts (which the public generally supports) and tax hikes (which they do not).

jimmyk

Seems to me it has been the societal pressure to not smoke cigarettes more than any other factor which has led to the drastic reduction in the smoking rate.

Not to mention more knowledge about the dangers, higher taxes, etc.

I would reason that out the exact opposite. When something is illegal, the laws against it are in themselves the "societal pressure."

I believe the point here is that making something illegal is not the only way to reduce usage, and that legality does not automatically result in increased usage when other measures are available.

daddy

Just for interest.

IN Kazhakstan a while ago I bought a carton of cigarettes (Knockoff Winston's) for about 3 dollars US. This link tells how the Kazhak Government recently mandated a price increase (2007) so that no pack could cost less than 32 cents US.

Then a week later at the Anchorage Base Exchange I saw a carton of Winston's cost about $50.00.


The difference in the cost struck me as remarkable, but am sure our Econ JOMer's could explain it. Oh and BTW, Vodka over there was also about $3.00 US per bottle.

Mark Folkestad

Peter, Hit, Dr. J, the tobacco mosiac virus is very nasty, and it can indeed spread from cigarettes. I always had tomatoes that were the envy of all my neighbors. Then I took in a high school classmate who was a chain smoker. She messed around with my garden and the tomatoes were ruined by tobacco mosaic virus. Much care is needed.

Melinda Romanoff

Mark-

I did exactly that to my own tomatoes. It sticks to your fingers where you hold your smoke, which I did, for a number of years, like 24.

None for three years now, with no real interest anymore.

And you should see my tomatoes!

Chubby

((So if I don't want my daughter to smoke, I should favor making cigarettes illegal? If I don't want her to subscribe to the NY Times I should make that illegal? (Hmmm....)))


False comparisons don't help your argument. Criminalizing things that are currently legal and decriminalizing things that are currently illegal legal are two totally different discussions. WRT drugs, we are discussing the latter not the former.

windansea

Windansea takes his name from the beach at La Jolla, one of the great surfing beaches of Southern California.

guilty as charged, many great times at that beach, still try to visit every summer

Chubby

Hi Daddy

((Oh and BTW, Vodka over there was also about $3.00 US per bottle.))

I wonder how much it costs to manufacture a bottle of vodka or a carton of Winstons.

Chubby

((guilty as charged, many great times at that beach, still try to visit every summer))

marginally OT ... this summer's "Brian Wilson Reimagines Gershwin" tour LUN looks kind of interesting

daddy

Hit,

Hope you plant some big tobacco seeds in your garden bed because I have always wanted to meet a Conservative who's in bed with Big Tobacco;)

Chubby,

Have been a big Brian Wilson freak for a long time. Great musical mind. Hadn't heard about the Gershwin gig, but if that genius inspires Brian to do something interesting and new, I'll be glad to hear it. Thanks for the Link.

windansea

typical liberal, guns for me but not for thee

plus, where's your transcripts and GPA Barry?

“I'm not anticipating complete mayhem for the next four or five years, but I understand teenagehood is complicated,” Obama said in an interview with “Good Morning America” before Malia’s 13th birthday next month. “I should also point out that I have men with guns that surround them often, and a great incentive for running for reelection is that it means they never get in the car with a boy who had a beer, and that's a pretty good thing.”

The pressure is on for such young men, too: Obama joked that he'd ask potential suitors of his daughters to sit down in the Oval Office so he could "ask him for his GPA, find out what his intentions are in terms of career."

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