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October 21, 2011

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jimmyk

While Qaddafi arguably "needed to die," the way it played out does not bode well for the likely next regime. By contrast, at least Saddam had a trial and was executed. But that was when Bush was president, so it was bad; Obama is president now, so this is good.

D2P.

What have I ever done to you?
============

Thomas Collins

Among Assad, Khamenei and al-Qaddafi, ousting and killing al-Qaddafi is the least likely to advance our interests. Naturally, al-Qaddafi is the one at whom Obama directed his attention.

Danube of Thought

Hell, we had Qaddafi contained, didn't we?

centralcal

cross posting because this is an OPPORTUNITY not to be missed!

Yoo Hoo Everyone. Who can write a great letter? A letter full of need and pathos and desperation? Well, step right up and write it to President Obama and you may receive back some of those Obama Bucks. Real Obama bucks as in a personal check from him!

Okay, fairy tales and other unbelievable stories by our MFM - in this case Jake Tapper.

MayBee

He really didn't want to let that information out, ccal!

centralcal

From Weasel Zippers who critiques their spelling:


I don't think HELLary is misspelled.

centralcal

Remember the excited AfAm gals who were just rapturous over Obama money for cars and houses and everything, oh my? Betcha they are furiously writing letters to their guy now! lol.

steve

As much as I dislike Obama, I wish Bush had taken the same approach in Iraq.

Limited presence aimed at removing Hussein and his sons from power (killing them if possible) and finding and eliminating whatever WMDs might have existed. We leave Iraq to the Iraqis, making sure the new regime knew that what happened to Hussein would happen to them if they pissed up off (as I put, shampoo, rinse, repeat if necessary).

Sure, we wouldn't have built Iraq into the peaceful land that it is now... but wait, that's right, they're not all that peaceful, they're not that supportive of the US.

In a lot of ways, Libya now is like Iraq would have been had we done it the way I wished we had. And we would have had thousands of fewer American dead and wounded, billions upon billions of dollars saved. A much less stressed and stretched out military.

Thanks George...

Threadkiller

Looks like the spelled "Hell" correctly

MayBee

This is why I find it so hilarious that President Martha's Vineyard is so proud of his 10 letters a day, and now has to let slip that sometimes he is so moved he writes a check:

The core principal that drives Mitt Romney is getting elected,” Messina said. “That is why Romney doesn’t have any credibility when he’s out there saying he’s fighting for the middle class.”

... They say Romney is a political opportunist who is out of touch with the middle class.


---Obama's campaign officials last week.

Clarice

I think Rick's take on Libya's future is correct--internecine warfare and chaos.In the best case some tyrant close to France will establish himself in charge and give France what it wants.
This is rather like the recall scott Walker effort in Wisconsin, where the instigators just now realize they have no credible candidate to put forward even if they round up sufficient signatures on the petition drive.

Threadkiller

The=they

jimmyk

Steve, do you think total chaos and some kind of Islamist takeover (the downside in Libya) has the same implications for U.S. interests as they would in Iraq? Maybe with hindsight what we have now in Iraq isn't worth the cost, but I don't think the two situations are comparable or necessarily call for the same level of response.

Ranger

We leave Iraq to the Iraqis, making sure the new regime knew that what happened to Hussein would happen to them if they pissed up off (as I put, shampoo, rinse, repeat if necessary).

Yeah, cause that worked so well when we tried it in Europe after 1919. That rinse and repeat can be a real bitch sometimes.

centralcal

I just loved this story link provided by James Taranto - about the chaos that is enveloping OWS.

“Someone has to be told what to do," she said. "Someone needs to give orders. There’s no sense of order in this fucking place.”

Things are getting might testy in Zuccotti Park

Ignatz

--As much as I dislike Obama, I wish Bush had taken the same approach in Iraq.--

Which approach? Starting and fighting a war without so much as even asking for congress's approval, let alone permission?
As much as I loathe nation building, even it is a less dangerous precedent than was established with Congress's obsequious response to Barry's Imperial edict.
And the muted response by conservative talking heads, with notable exceptions, presumably gulled by the fear of looking like anti-war lefties was just as disgraceful.
We're becoming or already are a nation of men not laws. And the more laws men pass the more true it becomes.

MayBee

There was a time when leaving a country like Iraq in disarray after we'd taken away the leader and bombed the infrastructure was practically a war crime in the eyes of the Democrats.

The idea of a power vacuum was appalling.
But that was back in the days when we heard about body counts and civilian deaths during wars.

DebinNC

They sure don't seem like happy campers, especially the drummers outraged at having half their $300 a day tips confiscated for the good of the group. hehe

Ignatz

--Yeah, cause that worked so well when we tried it in Europe after 1919.--

One small detail is, Iraq [and Afghanistan for that matter] circa 2003 are not Europe circa 1919.

Ranger

Well, on the bright side, Responsibility to Protect has been shown to be just another left wing conceptual fraud... the "white man's burden" in "critical thinking" drag.

GMAX

half their $300 a day tips confiscated for the good of the group. hehe

Only half? Seems to me using Democrat Party sliding scale logic and rhetoric, the drummers are Zucotti Parks "millionaires and billionaires". They should have their entire earnings seized for the common good. And if they oppose it, they should be instructed on how Stalin reacted to similar ungrateful types...

Ranger

One small detail is, Iraq [and Afghanistan for that matter] circa 2003 are not Europe circa 1919.

Posted by: Ignatz | October 21, 2011 at 12:01 PM

True, it took about 20 years for things to really go back to carp in Europe. It would have taken a lot less time in Iraq. Cause its not like Al Qaeda was looking for an oil rich state that bordered on Saudia Arabia to get control of. And its not like Al Qaeda could mobilize thousands of foreign fighters to decend on Iraq back around 2004 to 2006.

Neo

Think of all the rapes and murders that this money could have prevented ... and all the cowboy poetry that will go forever unwritten…

rse

Has anybody posted on reworking our training manuals to remove references offensive to CAIR?

LUN has nice snark on what allahu akbar must really mean then.

Just emerged briefly and haven't read other thread.

centralcal

jaketapper
BREAKING - POTUS at 1245 will announce complete drawdown of US troops from Iraq to zero by end of 2011

Ranger

I'm sure this isn't a portend of things to come in Libya:

Row over Muammar Gaddafi's body delays burial plans

I'm sure this is the most difficult issue they will ever face, and once this is worked out, all the other problems will be easy to solve.

Janet

and all the cowboy poetry that will go forever unwritten…

I am a cowboy poet,
Ridin' a bench in Zuccotti Park.
My six gun is a drumstick,
That I'm pounding for the cause.
The howlin' coyotes are singin',
"We are the 99"
A restless herd of morons,
Being led from the behind.

centralcal

Way to go Janet!!! Love it.

pagar

rse, I had it here ready to post,but was just wondering rather anyone really cares rather all American terrorist training has to be approved by the Muslims now.

From the 12:20 link.

"“I want to be perfectly clear about this: training materials that portray Islam as a religion of violence or with a tendency towards violence are wrong, they are offensive, and they are contrary to everything that this president, this attorney general and Department of Justice stands for,” Holton said Wednesday. “They will not be tolerated.”

How long before everything done in America has to be approved by them?

Captain Hate

Dave Weigel steps in it again or maybe he never stepped out of it: http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2011/10/dave-weigel-warns-of-gop-mind-control.html

Rick Ballard

Any bets on when the French run UN rape and plunder brigades will be authorized to begin stealing Libyan money? Will the Ali Babbas submit to the French mercs without the need for Year Zero wholesale slaughter?

What kind of hazard pay will the TOTAL and BP oil men require to endure the possibility of running into an IED on the way to work?

So many questions.

steve

Ranger: we'll never know, but I believe that Al Qaeda wouldn't have flooded into Iraq but for the fact that we were there... a position I base on the fact that they only seem to go to places we are (Iraq then, Afghanistan now). And no, I'm not suggesting we be nowhere.

Ignatz: I'm torn. On one hand, I would have preferred that Obama got Congressional approval. On the other hand, I think Bush' trying to get Congressional and UN approval is a large part of why it turned as ugly as it did. Without the UN, he wouldn't have needed Powell's buyin (limited as it was), and thus wouldn't have had to heed the Powell's ridiculous 'you break it, you fix it'.

MayBee

Ranger: we'll never know, but I believe that Al Qaeda wouldn't have flooded into Iraq but for the fact that we were there... a position I base on the fact that they only seem to go to places we are (Iraq then, Afghanistan now). And no, I'm not suggesting we be nowhere.

Afghanistan before we went there.
Pakistan.
Yemen.
Saudi Arabia.
Indonesia.

Captain Hate

they only seem to go to places we are (Iraq then, Afghanistan now).

Wrong; there are plenty of those vermin in Pakistan. Fighting them in Iraq was one of the benefits of being there; or would you rather they exist in places they're less likely to get crushed?

Boatbuilder

Um, Steve...why was it that we attacked Afghanistan in the first place?

Ranger

Ranger: we'll never know, but I believe that Al Qaeda wouldn't have flooded into Iraq but for the fact that we were there... a position I base on the fact that they only seem to go to places we are (Iraq then, Afghanistan now). And no, I'm not suggesting we be nowhere.

But even in your scenario, we would have "been there" at least long enough to remove Saddam. Even with a regime "decapitaion" (where we took out Saddam and his sons, but left the entire Bathist party structure intact, with a new strongman beholdened to us in charge)it would have taken us months to get all are men and equipment out of country. Al Qaeda would have flooded in to claim credit for driving the US out.

As it was, the entire regime completely collapsed (in a way that no one anticipated). There was no state to give back to the Iraqi people. We had to rebuild one basically from scratch.

Danube of Thought

"In a lot of ways, Libya now is like Iraq would have been had we done it the way I wished we had."

A few points:

--We intervened in Iraq with entirely different goals than in Libya, and the approach taken with Libya would not have addressed those goals.

--It is impossible to know what Iraq would look like had we done it your way, even assuming that doing it your way was possible.

--What Libya looks like now tells us nothing about what it will look like in, say, two years, and that may turn out to something worse than the Qaddafi regime.

Jane

So we are leaving Iraq, lock,stock and barrel in December. I wonder if we will use our drones on the Iranians when they take over in February.

I guess that leaves more resources for Uganda and whoever Obama (declares his own personal war on today.

I still think there is something very wrong with what we did in Egypt and Libya. Almost terrorist like.

Cecil Turner

Starting a war is serious business, but winning it is everything. Spurious logic aside, the left gets a pass on this one.

MayBee

In Iraq, I believe we had a distinct responsibility to continue protecting the Kurds. Killing Saddam and pulling out would not have fulfilled that responsibility.

Ignatz

--True, it took about 20 years for things to really go back to carp in Europe. It would have taken a lot less time in Iraq.--

The difference I was referring to is that Europe was a developed civilization with immensely more importance to us, immensely more capacity to reform civilized societies with a helping hand and immensely more capacity for mischief and bringing on another world war if we didn't than Afghanistan or Iraq.

--Ignatz: I'm torn. On one hand, I would have preferred that Obama got Congressional approval.--

It's not a matter of personal preferral, it's whether a POTUS has to abide by the Constitution and the law or whether we live in a country that is now ruled by a President who can wage wars when, where and how he pleases with not the slightest constraint short of non-appropriations and even that is subject to work-arounds.

--Afghanistan before we went there.
Pakistan.
Yemen.
Saudi Arabia.
Indonesia.--

Don't forget Libya.
Looks like the men in camo are going to be pretty busy the next few decades.

Danube of Thought

"a position I base on the fact that they only seem to go to places we are (Iraq then, Afghanistan now). "

Yemen? Somalia? Afghanistan pre-October, 2001? Pakistan? Seems to me they go anyplace where the government is either unwilling or unable to throw them out, which might well have been the case in a post-Saddam Iraq without a US presence. In any event, the fact that they came into Iraq while we were there cost them very dearly.

MayBee

I hate Iowa.

Sandy Daze

In Iraq, now Hellary's "reset" Foreign Policy will come to full force. Yep, that's the ticket !

OMG~ABO,
Sandy

bgates

I hate Iowa.

Don't worry, Obama will probably declare war on them by Christmas.

MayBee

Ha ha ha ha ha!

narciso

One is struck by the fact, that we conducted Libya, ignoring all the lessons of Iraq. We had the NATO component, the no fly zone, for 10 years, we had the covert component, with the INC and the Accord, we have so many Al Qua Quas, we can't even count, the reactor is unsecured, and we certainly didn't intend to
put known Islamists like Zarquawi in power.

pagar

Let me see if I understand this correctly, we are going to drop all mention of the group causing the problem from the training manuals that prepare the troops to go to these countries.
We're having legal officers review every single action American troops take in these countries to insure that they do not upset the group taken out of the training manuals, with court- martials for anyone if the lawyers don't approve their actions.

Meanwhile,military members retirement will be cut to whatever SS is at that time, and someone thinks people are going to run down to their local recruiter and sign up to do this? Someone is dreaming!

caro

Rush is talking about Hit's GS logo!

MayBee

I remember when the Democrats' theory was Iraq was a failure because we didn't have Shinseki's 400,000 boots on the ground for the post-war effort.
So the new hotness is to just bomb away with no boots on the ground, and pull a Scarlett O'Hara on what comes next.

Captain Hate

he new hotness is to just bomb away with no boots on the ground, and pull a Scarlett O'Hara on what comes next.

Slick's strategy in Bosnia/Kosovo.

MayBee

True, CH.

I guess there's not collateral damage in the wars of Democrat presidents.

Elliott

Still open, of course, is the vital question of the nature of the successor regime.

And the migration of anti-aircraft missiles.

narciso

That is not an encouraging thought, because you know who were active behind the lines in Bosnia and Kosovo, while the airstrikes were going on, AQ. KSM, Zubeydah, Zawahiri's brother were all on the ground there at one time or another.

Gmax

No less than 10 Democrats change horses and vote for the Republican alternative to Zero's scaled down teachers and other Democrat union constituencies jobs bill.

So the Republican alternative got more votes than the Democrat one and its "hampering" according to Politico, Zero message getting out. Sucks when you are hugely unpopular and thought to be a douche by even your own party members...

Elliott

narciso,

On the subject of terror tourism, do you have any idea why the Russians let Zawahiri go?

Captain Hate

I guess there's not collateral damage in the wars of Democrat presidents.

Other than Chinese embassies. BOOM goes the missile.

Elliott

Almost forgot...

Happy Birthday!

Gmax

Lets see a filibuster proof Senate without the nuclear option being employed is a scant 13 seats away and 10 were nervous enough already to start sending signals that there was significant daylight between them and that slick talking jiver? That smell you are experience is a mixture of flop sweat and incontinence from the Senate members of the President Goldman Sachs' posse...

narciso

Seeing the example of Ibn Khattab, Abu Walid
and company, they weren't Chechen, in retrospect a grave error,

MayBee

GMax- the really funny thing is the FTA passages.
Obama has been out campaigning that the Congress needed to pass them right away, but he hadn't even presented them to Congress. As soon as he did- BAM!- they were passed with GOP support.
Then today, on the day he signs them, he is still trying to talk about how obstructionist the GOP is because they wouldn't pass his other bill.

Does he think nobody notices that the GOP will pass bills if they agree with them?

Danube of Thought

Keep in mind that in Afghanistan we had the Northern Alliance very eager to go after the Taliban once they had our aerial support. That regime fell in a matter of wekks with about 200 men on the ground. In Iraq it took nine months to get to Saddam with 200,000 troops, including two armored divisions.

narciso

One should note, the last is a member of the quarrelsome and numerous Ghamdi clan, who had a house dedicated to them in Kandahar, two of which were hijackers. Another, the son of the Saudi Ambassador to Sudan, was the Christmas
messhall bomber in Mosul, 2004.

Barbara

Happy Birthday, Narciso!

Ignatz

When one of these barbarous backwaters, particularly the Islamic ones, is turned into a stable, functioning, relatively free ally I may be convinced of the notion of nation building as opposed to nation re-building as under the Marshall plan.
Iraq isn't there yet and it's the closest we've come lately.
Not sure South Korea would qualify as a barbarous backwater despite some recent comments regarding their business practices. :)

Gmax

Politico piles on, its going to get brutal for Zero as the rats head for the lifeboats:

In every major race next year featuring a Senate Democratic incumbent, Obama is polling worse than the incumbent — in some cases, by a substantial margin — according to publicly released surveys.

So rather than running for reelection on Obama’s coattails, these Senate Democrats may end up facing questions over whether they can win with the president on the ballot.

Jane

Elliott,

Have you changed the plans I knew about?

Thomas Collins

Happy Birthday, narciso. I hope you enjoy your favorite politically incorrect food today on your birthday (for me, it's regular birthday cake with that sugary white frosting and yellow roses).

Sue

yellow roses

A Texas boy at heart.

Sue

"We came, we saw, he died."

Will the UN want to talk to Hillary about Daffy's death?

centralcal

A question I never thought to ask was prompted by this tweet from Iowahawk:

iowahawkblog David Burge
The saddest thing about Colonel Gadhafi being killed: he was going to get a promotion to General next week.

With his huge ego, and now we find out from his autopsy - fake hair, wonder why he only stayed a lowly "Colonel?"

Ignatz

New York magazine (hardly a bastion of the rightwing) with an amusing walk through the revolting proletariat of OWS.

Sue

Yesterday I didn't think too much about how the son of a bitch was killed. Like they say around these parts, he needed killing. But dadgum, the more I think about Obama and Clinton running around spiking the football and making stupid statements like "we came, we saw, he died" and more especially in a military action that didn't have congressional approval, I'm thinking democrats need to eat this one.

Captain Hate

With his huge ego, and now we find out from his autopsy - fake hair, wonder why he only stayed a lowly "Colonel?"

It was part of his persona; once he took over the country in a coup his military entity was just put on hold because it was a thing of the past.

Danube of Thought

Good question, Ccal. Usually zanies like that start right off as Field Marshals, even if they've only got two dozen men under them.

I have a friend who knew him when he was a sergeant, and could power down the single malts with the best of them.

MayBee

He was probably a fan of alliteration.

Danube of Thought

...knew him when he was a *lieutenant*

centralcal

ha ha, MayBee - well phonetically at least! With so many possible Daffy spellings it wouldn't always be matching consonants.

Ranger

I'm thinking democrats need to eat this one.

Well, Dems have always loved a good lynching, so they are just staying true to their party's ideals and traditions.

narciso

P.J. O' Rourke, remarked about that trend, with Lt. Doe of Liberia, and sgt Rawlings of Ghana, that it would devolve to Weeblo Scouts
and crossing Guards.

Ignatz, you won't be surprised that Angelo Codevilla, former Naval Intel, CIA, and now Boston U professor, basically agrees with you in the most recent Claremont Review.

Sue

staying true to their party's ideals and traditions.

They are such hypocrites and I don't know why I am continually shocked by it.

Thomas Collins

Sue, little did I know there was a Yellow Rose Bakery in Houston that is now closed, and I never visited it when I was in Houston! See LUN.

Thomas Collins

My LUN for Yellow Rose Bakery didn't work. Let's try another one.

Benjamin Franklin


The Daily Show had the schizophrenic reaction of conservatives.

The classic was from John Bolton who said we should have gotten Khaddafi sooner.

Obama certainly has his share of errata, but credit for anything, even for putting his shoes on correctly, is as rare as left-handed
conservatives.


http://themoderatevoice.com/126209/the-meaning-of-the-libya-revolution-and-qaddafis-death/

"Unquestionably, Libya suffered from foreign intervention to some degree. The inability of the rebels to cope and sustain their. revolution was a blow to the Libyan revolutionary project. The international community’s involvement took some of the shine off of that project, to be sure. But the consequences of the world ignoring Libya, now with the benefit of more hindsight, would have been worse. For all that must be said about NATO’s overreaching, the involvement of Turkey seemed to soften the negativity of foreign intervention in Libya, and things went surprisingly well in the months leading up to the ouster of Qaddafi from Tripoli. It was a necessary evil, but the world was right to get involved in Libya’s fight. Once again, the important question (as it was in Afghanistan in the ’80s, Afghanistan in 2001, and Iraq in 2003) is, how will the world stay involved? Reference to question one, here."

narciso

One of the best Cuban bakeries, with the best pastries, croquettes, et al, in Little Havana, closed some years ago, although the
counter at Versailles makes an ok substitute.

Thomas Collins

See LUN for the Codevilla article narciso mentioned in his 3:14 PM post. Here is an excerpt:

"The world of 2011 is even less congenial to America and Americans than it was on September 10, 2001. The U.S. government is not responsible for all the ways in which the world was menacing then and is menacing now, of course. Regardless of what America did, China's challenge to the post-1945 Peace of the Pacific was going to become more serious. Vladimir Putin's neo-Soviet Russia was not and could not be anything but a major bother. Western Europe would be living off civilizational capital it had lost the will to replenish, irrespective of any American deeds or entreaties. The Muslim world would be choking on the dysfunctions inherent in its government and cultures.

But U.S. policy has made things worse because the liberal internationalists, realists, and neoconservatives who make up America's foreign policy Establishment have all assumed that Americans should undertake the impossible task of changing such basic facts, rather than confining themselves to the difficult but vital work of guarding U.S. interests against them. For the Establishment, 9/11 meant opportunities to press for doing more of what they had always tried to do."


Neocontinence in the defense of liberty is not a sack of pampers.

The price in Iraq was approximately one dead American for 3,000 purply enfranchised Iraqis, a stiff but fair price. They, not we, have built the present power sharing regime. They have forged, rather pieced gingerly together, a confederation at peace with itself which could be at war with itself. They, Shia Arabs, are going to have more influence on their Persian Shia neighbor and their Arab Sunni neighbor than vice versa.

Yes, thanks, George.
==========

Ignatz

--Ignatz, you won't be surprised that Angelo Codevilla, former Naval Intel, CIA, and now Boston U professor, basically agrees with you in the most recent Claremont Review.--

Never met the dude, but he lives about 10 miles from me, as the drone flies, and am told by friends he attends the local Tea Party conclaves.

narciso

Now there are certainly elements of truth, however, Codevilla doesn't take into account
the likes of the work of the Levick Group, that in Lenin's own words, had the 'capitalists willing selling the rope' to hang themselves.

Ignatz

--They, Shia Arabs, are going to have more influence on their Persian Shia neighbor and their Arab Sunni neighbor than vice versa.--

I hope you're right Kim.
Mesopotamia, however, is one of the prominent graveyards of optimists.

MayBee

I love it when Democrats discover for the 10 millionth time that the GOP isn't constantly in lockstep.

But how can you not be schizophrenic about the Libya action? On the one hand, yay Gaddhafi's gone. On the other hand, last year at this time we were increasing his military aid and giving money directly to his son's charities.
On the other hand, Obama didn't get congressional approval per the War Powers Act. On the other hand, he didn't try to sell it to the American people. On the other hand, he says it isn't indicative of any doctrine he has. On the other hand, he says he might act this way again.

What is anybody supposed to say about it?

Sue

What is anybody supposed to say about it?

Dadgum?

Benjamin Franklin

"The price in Iraq was approximately one dead American for 3,000 purply enfranchised Iraqis, a stiff but fair price."

Did you pay any price, whatsoever? Just after the trade of 1000 Palestinians for one Israeli prisoner, you seem cavalier about the relative value of brown people.

MayBee

you seem cavalier about the relative value of brown people.

How many brown people were killed in Libya, Ben?

I keep hearing it was successful because no Americans were killed.

Sue

How many brown people were killed in Libya, Ben?

Why does that matter? Obama, not Bush, is president.

MayBee

Dadgum, Sue.

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