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November 22, 2011

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matt

So Tony Rezko was never called in any of the cases in Chicago. WTF, Fitzgerald?

Rick Ballard

ClimateGate II - Death of the Skydragon

Jane

Obama pardoned a bunch of people yesterday Matt. I'm surprised Rezko wasn't one of them.

Thomas Collins

From TM's link:

"<3115> Mann: By the way, when is Tom C going to formally publish his roughly 1500 year reconstruction??? It would help the cause to be able to refer to that reconstruction as confirming Mann and Jones, etc."

I guess I'd better get to work. I had no idea that I was supposed to do a 1500 year analysis proving the obvious (namely, that temperatures go up and down over time). :-))

Thomas Collins

Go, ahead, kim, be "green" (so to speak) with envy. It is I, not you, who got the 1500 year study gig!

henry

Matt, the Blago Blog suggests his cooperation was ex post and he was mostly covering his own butt.

Benjamin Franklin

Climate issues abound, and the continuosly 'hinky' weather patterns give an inkling. But catastrophies are Legion, and climate is on the back shelf of immediacy.

You've got a lot of denialism to parrot in the immediate future.
You don't want to hear about any tipping of rowboats, unless it's someone elses.

Captain Hate

Again, how transparently witless does a group of idiots have to be to put all their eggs in a CO2 basket?

narciso

Of course, Rezko wasn't really the point of the exercise, it's more who is behind him, who Fitz no doubt knew from his time in the SDNY

Benjamin Franklin

Is the economic climate allowed on this thread?

Here's an impressive graphic illustrating that Earthquakes CAN be predicted. What if there were near simultaneous epicenters throughout the Europe. Isolationists aside, it's your rowboat, too.

http://www.mint.com/blog/trends/then-and-now-the-european-debt-crisis-112011/?display=wide


Janet

Here is proof of the pepper spray propaganda set-up.
Everything is a fraud.

Thomas Collins

I'm just glad we have scientists such as Curry, Lindzen and others to challenge Status Quo on the issue of climate change. BFF, even if you are in the Status Quo camp on this one, wouldn't you agree that it's a fine thing that Status Quo is being challenged?

Old Lurker

Dunno Cap'n, they have done irreparable harm with that scam, not least being the brainwashing of entire generations of the muddle, and damn near a critical mass of political leaders. (Are Nancy and Newt still sitting on that couch?)

narciso

They were sowing this garbage 20 some years ago, with James Burke's 'After the Warming'

Benjamin Franklin

TC;

The Status Quo is only my target because they have control and disabuse that power. Getting to the truth, and then, pommelling the SQ until they relent is the goal. I'm not a scientist, but I can SEE the weather patterns and the evidence of the ice sheet melting. It's not rocket science for an engineers eyes only.

Dave (in MA)

Another Penn State scandal? While Sandusky was molesting kids, Mann was molesting science.

Rick Ballard

Death of Skydragon News

Watts Up With That

Climate Audit

If only Secretary Chu had known about the level of fraud which the "scientists" were committing perhaps he wouldn't have been as quick to involve himself in the solar fraud schemes.

Nah - he's as big a fraud (outside of his narrow field) as Al Gore. He's also just as big a thief as his boss.

Danube of Thought

"So Tony Rezko was never called in any of the cases in Chicago. WTF, Fitzgerald?"

They may have figured he'd have been blown up on cross.

Thomas Collins

I'm not a scientist either, BFF, but my reading of it is different. My reading of it is that the downside of the policies that have been propunded in the political arena as solutions to problems posed by various types of weather will cause greater harm to humanity than those types of weather. In addition, I think the way this has been presented to the public is suspect. Of course, I do concede, as a friend of mine who is an environmental studies grad student has argued to me (by the way, this guy was a physics/classics double major in college, so there is no absence of brainpower in this guy), the fact that the media may present a superficial and even skewed view of climate studies does not prove that there isn't a problem that has to be addressed. However, keep in mind that a substantial element of Status Quo, if anything, now has an interest in skewing coverage towards the dangers of climate change, to protect subsidies and investments.

In any event, I'm going to send an email to my friend and see whether he has any thoughts on the latest email revelations (of course, since they have just been released and he has schoolwork to do, he may not be able to respond quickly).

Old Lurker

Rick, you mean I wasted my money painting my roofs white?

rse

Gee. And to think I was reading this week the confession on how politically useful the spectre of the catastrophe of human annihilation was to gaining support for a scheme. Decades old.

I am so disillusioned. This almost sounds like a reversion to the historical norm of elite despotism and rigging the system to maintain power.

Academics wouldn't do that.

Dave (in MA)

Help The Cause is the new Hide The Decline.

henry

Per Fox News, Rezko gets 10 1/2 years, credit for time served.

GMAX

Everything is a fraud.

No Janet, they were coughing up blood. I have been assured of that. BTW, dont let logic and commonsense and the lack of any indication of this an a contraindicator or symptom from exposure to pepper spray ( OC) from just emoting on this, the left is counting on it.

centralcal

Well, Janet and GMAX, the thread may get "lively" later today :)

matt

So Barry faces no questions on his suspicious land deal and the normal influence peddlaing of the Chicago Way. Rahm faces no questions on his interfaces with Blagojevich, and no one else faces any inconvenient questions.

How very Chicago.....

Fitzgerald is truly an amazing prosecutor. $20 - 30 Million and he has Scooter Libby to show for it.

Benjamin Franklin

"if anything, now has an interest in skewing coverage towards the dangers of climate change, to protect subsidies and investments."

Indeed a problem, TC. We are (and have been for some time) an endless tape-loop of 'right-back-atcha'.

The truth is never a monopoly for either side.

Thomas Collins

See LUN (via Pajamas Media) for CHACO's initial foray into the newly released emails (at least, the first I have noticed from CHACO).

GMAX

but I can SEE the weather patterns and the evidence of the ice sheet melting.

Yeah it was really tragic when that ice floe broke off with the trapped polar bear on it. It made me feel so bad and he looked so cuddly and cute, just the like ones on the coca cola commercials! With this kind of evidence what more do we need?

Forget that nearly every run at nearly every ski resort in Colorado is open right now, when traditionally it has been Thanksgiving or much later. Dont let facts get in the way, you can see it with your own two eyes, on TV!

Benjamin Franklin


Facepalming is a form of awareness which escapes your keen perceptive powers..

http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/deaths-per-twh-by-energy-source.html

Comparing deaths/TWh for all energy sources

I wrote this back in 2008 and with one new death that is somewhat nuclear energy related (a death at one of the japanese nuclear plants following the 8.9 earthquake) the statistics are not changed. Japan should have had sealed backup diesel generators or updated some of their designs. However, nuclear still compares very, very well to the other energy sources. The air pollution data is mainly from the World Health Organization and the european study Externe. The World Health Organization compiled peer reviewed health studies on air pollution from many institutions. Occupational health and safety statistics track the deaths of workers in the different industries.

PD

Wisconsin State Journal has succeeded in having a judge rule the Madison school district's refusal to provide access to teacher "sick notes" from the collective bargaining protests. The judge ruled this a violation of the state's open records law.

Rick Ballard

"and even skewed view of climate studies does not prove that there isn't a problem that has to be addressed"

TC,

How very true. I suggest monitoring the situation at the lowest possible cost for a period of 100 years to see if the Skydragon ever shows up. I'm 99.9% convinced that the climate will change over the next hundred years so we're going to have to have a measurable definition of "significant" prior to me being willing to chip in a nickel per year for monitoring.

GMAX

Frankenstein lost control of his monster too:

President Barack Obama was just heckled in New Hampshire by apparent Occupy Wall Street supporters.

About 3 minutes into his speech at Manchester Central High School, one person shouted "Mic Check" which was echoed by several voices. They continued shouting for nearly a minute, as Obama smiled and tried to continue on with his speech.

Funny aint it?

Benjamin Franklin

"And now we know the rest of the story;"

"Thar she blows..."

Thomas Collins
"prior to me being willing to chip in a nickel per year for monitoring."

Rick, depending on who the monitoring committee is, the monitoring might not be even worth a nickel. If the committee included the likes of CHACO, Judith Curry and kim, that would be a different story.

narciso

Pierce does the impossible, make me feel sorry for David Brooks

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/david-brooks-two-moons-6594969

This turkey is thankful.

I know nossing, TC, nossing at all.
==============

Benjamin Franklin

Kim; It shows in your prose. lol

http://consortiumnews.com/2011/11/21/slanting-the-case-on-irans-nukes/


Special Report: The U.S. news media shows no skepticism as it accepts the toughly worded report by the International Atomic Energy Agency on Iran’s alleged nuclear weapons program. Ignored is the fact that the IAEA’s new chief appears to have joined the U.S./Israel camp, reports Robert Parry.


By Robert Parry

As Washington’s political/media class rises up in arms over new WMD allegations against Iran, it might be worth recalling how a similar process played out nearly a decade ago when the U.S. public was drawn into a war with Iraq. It wasn’t just that George W. Bush told some lies; it was more complicated than that.

In 2002-2003, Official Washington professed a deep faith in the professionalism of the CIA’s analytical division, which accepted enough of the bogus intelligence being pushed by neocon war hawks to create a basis for Bush’s invasion of Iraq. Only later did it become clear how politicized the CIA’s analysis had become.

Today, a similar role is being played by the United Nations’ International Atomic Energy Agency, which – during the run-up to war with Iraq and under different management – was one of the few international bodies with the courage to reject some of Bush’s claims about Iraq.

However, in the past two years, the IAEA has become deeply politicized under its new director general, Japanese diplomat Yukiya Amano. Yet, you wouldn’t know that from how the U.S. news media is accepting what the IAEA says about Iran, much as the U.S. press corps avoided questioning the CIA’s assessments on Iraq.

The evidence of the IAEA’s politicization can be found in confidential U.S. diplomatic cables obtained by WikiLeaks and published last year by the Guardian newspaper in the U.K. In those cables, the IAEA’s new leadership indicated it was willing to give Washington what it wanted on Iran, just as the CIA’s hierarchy bent to Bush’s needs on Iraq last decade.

Thomas Collins

I've heard of mission creep, but this takes the cake (or the turkey stiffing)--apparently, the Department of Homeland Security has morphed into the Department of Home Economics Security. See LUN (via Drudgereport).

narciso

I must admit when you were talking about Yamal briffa, it seemed as obscure as some of my commentary must be to the rest of you, but
that's a huge treasure trove.

Thomas Collins

Whoa! What a typo! Turkey "stiffing" instead of "stuffing"? Calling Dr. Freud!

Benjamin Franklin

Yeah, me too. But I liked this one...


The Democrat and Republican parties...
(Democrat Party? It's a trap!)
...used to contain serious internal debates — between moderate and conservative Republicans, between New Democrats and liberals. Neither party does now.
(Yes, here on the planet we call... Earth, I have noticed that Barack Obama has received no criticism at all from within his own party, while the Republicans bristle with internal strife over whether Barack Obama is a socialist born in Kenya or a socialist born in Hawaii. Worse than the Clone Wars, that is.)


Read more: http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/david-brooks-two-moons-6594969#ixzz1eSqA9NUQ

Dave (in MA)

Maybe the Butterball wants its 72 virgins.

Benjamin Franklin

"it seemed as obscure as some of my commentary must be to the rest of you,"

Naw. You don't know that, for sure.

Sink the Bismarck, er the SS Climate Follies.

n, one commenter elsewhere mentioned a smoking gun and I told him the cloud he saw was from an artillery barrage.
====================

centralcal

This is quite a hoot, from Jammie Wearing Fools:

Sick and tired of these miscreants roaming around stinking up the place? Wish you could stomp them into dust? Well, have we got the right solution for you. Actually in all seriousness, this isn’t a tank, rather it’s called an Amphibious Rescue Vehicle, yet when deployed the other day by Tampa Police, it hilariously sent the paranoid Occupods into a state of apoplexy.

Captain Hate

Dunno Cap'n, they have done irreparable harm with that scam, not least being the brainwashing of entire generations of the muddle, and damn near a critical mass of political leaders.

If the muddle is stupid enough to fall for these flim flammers we might already be screwed. It doesn't take more than a cursory knowledge of science to have one's bullshit detectors on full alert at the first mention of this crap. Add in extreme secrecy of the underlying data, emotion laden appeals to "the TRUTH" and having world recognized dumbasses championing the cause; what would PT Barnum have done differently?

Thomas Collins

CH, PT Barnum would have had the sense not to leave a treasure trove of incriminating emails.

Captain Hate

Good point, TC; PT didn't have tenure.

Rick Ballard

Boehner ready to Talk on FICA cut extension

Nice quick return of the President's opening shot. This will be interesting to watch in terms of the spending offsets proposed to cover it.

Army of Davids

Rezko

Blago

Wright

Ayers

Dohrn

Just guys/gals in the neighborhood.....

Some of us saw this guy coming from a mile away. But we weren't in love w/ Mr Hopey, Changey either.....I guess love can be blind.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

With apologies to Chaco and Kim, the only thing more boring than threads about derivatives is climate threads.

There are a few advantages to getting older and one of them is the certain knowledge that nothing earthshaking climate change-wise is going to come about in any of our lifetimes nor our children's or grandchildren's lifetimes either. There are no amounts of chants or drumbeats or Congresscritters beating their chests for more money that is going to change that fact.

Army of Davids

Midwest Academy....beneign sounding...shaping future communist organizers.

Obama has a past here that gets little press.

Aggressive leftist grass roots group reportedly was very active in Wisconsin.

I would bet Ohio as well.

Army of Davids

Midwest Academy....benign sounding...shaping future communist organizers.

Obama has a past here that gets little press.

Aggressive leftist grass roots group reportedly was very active in Wisconsin.

I would bet Ohio as well.

(spelling corrected...hopefully in a benign way)

Danube of Thought

The Hill:

"The insurance industry is terrified that the Supreme Court will strike down the individual mandate to buy insurance next year while leaving the rest of the healthcare reform law intact.

"For insurers, the death of the mandate alone — one of many plausible outcomes in the blockbuster case — is the nightmare scenario, one Republican healthcare lobbyist told The Hill. "

Ignatz

Posted on the other thread also but "$80 Trillion" is always worth saying at least twice.
James Pethokoukis (frikkin Greek names) lays out the unfunded liability crisis we're facing. A mere $80 trillion or so, give or take. Mostly, we give and they take.
The first comment makes a good case it's actually worse than the graphs show.

Ignatz

--"For insurers, the death of the mandate alone — one of many plausible outcomes in the blockbuster case — is the nightmare scenario, one Republican healthcare lobbyist told The Hill. "--

Could cathyf be described as a 'Republican Healthcare lobbyist'?

Old Lurker

But Iggy, (re the first comment on your LUN)they can buy Eurobonds from the PIGS and earn 7%, right? No risk there, right? That's lots more than 5.8.

Melinda Romanoff

OL-

Why stop there? Greek 12 month bills are trading at 200%!! That's doubling your money!!

Well, if they pay, of course.

Jane

Why is that the "nightmare scenerio"?

Old Lurker

There you go, Mel. Tell those OMB guys to run their model with a discount rate of 200% and poof...unfunded liabilities all gone.

Old Lurker

Jane I'm guessing the insurance companies assume they will be stuck with all the rate controls, risky coverages that they accepted in return for getting gazillions of new young healthy insureds paying for mandated policies.

You and I assume if the whole law goes, then they go back to status quo...they worry they will have to provide all the promised coverages to risky policy holders bgut without the promised stream of new income.

Benjamin Franklin


Be careful what you wish for.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/my-supreme-court-health-care-brief/2011/11/16/gIQATEAMRN_story.html?hpid=z2


"If the GOP succeeds in invalidating the one way to use private health plans to achieve universal coverage, frustrated Americans will eventually say, “Just give us single-payer and be done with it.” I can’t say whether that tipping point comes at 60 million uninsured or 70 million. But it will happen."

Charlie (Colorado)

See LUN (via Pajamas Media) for CHACO's initial foray into the newly released emails (at least, the first I have noticed from CHACO).

Yeah, I'm up to my ass at the day job and hadn't been able to download the files this morning. I've got them now, will do some reading tonight (while soaking a country ham and figuring out how to get 10 folding chairs home. What in Gods' names, possessed me to have Thanksgiving at *my* house?)

Benjamin Franklin

BTW; We're at 50 million uninsured, right now.

centralcal

I am at work and accessed my home email account online. My spam email had 100 listings so I thought I should go clean it out (I am very bad at remember to do this).

Lo and Behold, I had an email from someone on the NRO cruise (NOT Jane) that was an absolute hoot. Who knew there were bar stools that look like butts clad only in thong underwear? Luckily no one in my office was walking by when I opened the photo. LMTUO (laughing my thong underwear off)!

Charlie (Colorado)

Bryan has just put up a collection of reactions.

Benjamin Franklin

okey dokey

http://www.prisonplanet.com/massive-hydrovolcanic-explosion-inevitable-at-fukushima.html


On November 17, the architect of Fukushima Daiichi Reactor 3, Uehara Haruo, was interviewed in Japan. He warned that a “China Syndrome” situation is inevitable at the plant.
Haruo said that considering eight months have passed since the tsunami and the crippling of the nuclear plant without any improvement in the condition of the reactors, it is likely melted fuel has escaped the container vessel and is now burning through the earth.

Extraneus

Keeping their priorities straight:

Norfolk police have said the new set of emails is “of interest” to their investigation to find the perpetrator of the initial email release who has not yet been identified.

Extraneus

From narcoso's last link:

Mann criticized the emails as being taken out of context and said that those leaking the documents appeared to have little to go on — though he expressed hope that the new leaks would give police more to go on in catching the culprit who originally hacked into the University files.

Extraneus

Whoever leaked the emails is not this perpetrator:

“Nations must invest $37 trillion in energy technologies by 2030 to stabilize greenhouse gas emissions at sustainable levels.”

That was from TM's link to Watts Up, but from Watts' link to the original from Jeff Id, we have all sorts of fun; for example:

<4141> Minns/Tyndall Centre:

In my experience, global warming freezing is already a bit of a public
relations problem with the media

Global warming freezing...

Extraneus

Not to be confused with global freezing?

rse

"they can't contest the fundamental science of human-caused climate change"-Mann from narciso's link.

There's the problem Kim-the ambiguity of the word "science". We keep assuming it means hard sciences like chemistry, physics, or biology. They mean the social science of human engineering if they can just get enough people to adjust their behavior in reaction to the theory.

Benjamin Franklin

"There's the problem Kim-the ambiguity of the word "science""

There is no ambiguity if your 'science' insists the Sun revolves around the Flat Earth which is only 6-7000 years old and you are subject to the Rack for being obtuse about those facts. Those same folks of Science also proved Mental Illness was caused by demonic possession, and dispute that Psychology/ Sociology are not 'science', but more like finger-painting.

Janet

One email posted at Wattsupwiththat -

"UPDATE8: 140PM PST Mike Mann shows his true colors:

email 1680.txt

date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:03:05 -0400
from: “Michael E. Mann”..
subject: Re: Something not to pass on
to: Phil Jones
Phil,

I would not respond to this. They will misrepresent and take out of context anything you give them. This is a set up. They will certainly publish this, and will ignore any evidence to the contrary that you provide. s They are going after Wei-Chyung because he’s U.S. and there is a higher threshold for establishing libel. Nonetheless, he should
consider filing a defamation lawsuit, perhaps you too.

I have been talking w/ folks in the states about finding an investigative journalist to investigate and expose McIntyre, and his thusfar unexplored connections with fossil fuel interests.Perhaps the same needs to be done w/ this Keenan guy.

I believe that the only way to stop these people is by exposing them and discrediting them…."

matt

Ignatz;

Yesterday the Telly had an article on how Hungary has now gone to the IMF for a bailout because their borrowing costs are skyrocketing. Right behind them are Croatia, Bulgaria, and the Ukraine.

The FT reports that Brussels wants to arrogate even more power and demand right of approval over member state budgets. All of this without a vote in the member states apparently. Talk about turning democracy on its ear.

I find it highly ironic that all of this emanates from a country that has not had a government for 15 months.

As the Brits used to say, the Walloon is going up.

If it wasn't so tragic it would be high farce.

henry

Janet & rse, Latour strikes again. Damn the facts, full rhetoric ahead!

matt

it's okay, BF.

The molten nuclear material will go all the way to the core and then trigger the rise in temperature described in that excellent documentary 2012 and we'll all die. Nothing to worry about.

Song for the Apocalypse: Blondie's "Rapture" of course.

Jane

Centralcal, I think you were supposed to post that.

You and I assume if the whole law goes, then they go back to status quo...they worry they will have to provide all the promised coverages to risky policy holders bgut without the promised stream of new income.

I don't know how anyone could even figure out what was promised and what was not. 2013 can't come soon enough.

Jane

Who is watching tonite's debate?

centralcal

I was, Jane? Are you sure?

narciso

Really did they hold odd, in this bit, so much for climate skeptic, Muller


http://deepclimate.org/2010/02/04/steve-mcintyre-and-ross-mckitrick-part-1-in-the-beginning/

Benjamin Franklin

A blast from the past. Parallelism...


"Governments of individual republics refused to pay federal taxes or enforce federal import fees (border police and customs services were under the jurisdiction of republics), and the government of Serbia even managed to use the federal money printing facility in Belgrade to issue itself a short-term credit. The federal government was forced to raise the exchange rate for the German Mark first to 9 and then to 13 dinars. The economic struggle also heightened already tense relations among the republics and between the republics and Belgrade.
In June 1991 Marković, who had formed his own Union of Reform Forces political party, led the last-ditch attempt to save the federation through negotiations over federal income from customs offices in SR Slovenia, which was withholding the money. But at the same time, Slovenia joined other republics in challenging the federal government's efforts to restrict their economic autonomy. Both Croatian leader Franjo Tuđman and Serbia's Slobodan Milošević joined Slovene leaders in railing against Yugoslavia's attempts to impose harsh reforms.[35]
In the 1990 multi-party elections, economic policy was at the centre of the political debate as separatist coalitions ousted the communists in SR Croatia, SR Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Slovenia. Just as economic collapse spurred the drift toward separation, separation in turn exacerbated the economic crisis. Cooperation among the republics virtually ceased and, with one being at another's throat, both the economy and the nation itself embarked on a vicious downward spiral. The process sped along as the republican leadership, deliberately fostered social and economic divisions to strengthen their own hands.
“ The republican oligarchies, who all had visions of a national renaissance of their own, instead of choosing between a genuine Yugoslav market and hyperinflation, opted for war which would disguise the real causes of the economic catastrophe.[36] ”
The simultaneous appearance of militias loyal to secessionist leaders only hastened the descent into chaos. These militias, with their escalating atrocities, not only split the population along ethnic lines, they also fragmented the workers' movement. Slovenia, Croatia, and finally, Bosnia fought bloody civil wars against rump Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) or Serbian nationalists or both. But now, the U.S. has belatedly taken an active diplomatic role in Bosnia, strengthened its relations with Croatia and Macedonia, and positioned itself to play a leading role in the region's economic and political future."
[edit]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Socialist_Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia

centralcal

Me! I am watching. Wolfie Blitzer just about had a meldown over the Romney ad (in a clip at Mediaite). Coming right before tonight's debate I expect him to pounce on it with Romney. What is fun is that Romney's advisor's know they took Obama out of context, they did it on purpose, and they are not backing down from it.

Jane

I am sure. I took that pix and we discussed it. You can't identify anyone in it.

narciso

Maybe not at the time, but they didn't hesitate to inpugn McKittrick and company
when necessary (Talisman is kind of dodgy
because of their portfolio in Sudan among
other places)


http://deepclimate.org/2009/12/02/in-the-beginning-friends-of-science-talisman-energy-and-the-de-freitas-brothers/

Benjamin Franklin

Well...belief is just that........belief.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Earth_creationism


Young Earth creationism is normally characterized as opposing the theory of evolution, though it also opposes many claims and theories in the fields of physics[70] and chemistry (especially absolute dating methods), geology,[70] astronomy,[71] cosmology,[71] paleontology,[72] molecular biology, genomics, linguistics, anthropology, archaeology, climatology and dendrochronology among others. (See creation science, flood geology, creation geophysics and objections to evolution for details of disagreements.) Young Earth creationists are fundamentally opposed to any explanation for the origins of anything which deviates from their literal reading of the Bible, whether it be the origins of biological diversity, the origins of life or the origins of the universe itself. This has led some young Earth creationists to criticize intelligent design, a proposal generally viewed as an alternative form of creationism, for not taking a stand on the age of the Earth, special creation, or even the identity of the designer. Some young Earth creationists see this as too compromising.[73]

centralcal

Okay - I will post after the debate.

Jane

Why do these candidates agree to go on CNN?

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Sounds like Romney has the loudest clappers.

Sara (Pal2Pal)

Yikes! What a horrible singer.

Dave (in MA)

Cleolator engage.

Jack is Back!

It would have been a nice touch and a little upsetting to the CNN mod if Perry had saluted instead of holding his hand over his heart. He is the only veteran and because of a W EO we can now salute the flag uncovered. Just to befuddled the CNN crowd.

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