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January 13, 2012

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Patrick R. Sullivan

'perpetrated against noncombatant targets'

Is a scientist engaged in developing weapons a noncombatant?

One of the most entertaining parts of 'Two Lucky People' is about Milton Friedman's work during WWII using statistical techniques to improve weapons. The army even took officers out of the line during the Battle of the Bulge, flew them back to the states and had Friedman explain the proximity fuse and its uses to them.

matt

We can define it however we wish within our borders, but outside of those borders the rules change substantially.

Maybe we can become more like the Spaniards, who have no problem indicting foreign nationals for crimes committed within their own borders.

The game of state sanctioned international whack a mole started long before we were born.

Old Lurker

And is it "politically motivated"?

Porchlight

Hi Patrick R., good to see you.

Friedman could explain anything to anyone. What a man.

matt

The proximity fuse is, believe it or not, one of the foundations of today's electronics industry.

NK

PatrickR-- that's a question I asked a couple of days ago in a post. I am with TomM here, and I disagree with Tobin. I am assuming -- assuming- that there's been a POTUS finding that these Iranian 'scientists' are working on miniturizing warheads and deploying nuke missles, such that they are unlawful combatants, hence lawful targets. Thoughts?

Clarice

Iran's been at war with us for decades-directly and indirectly by using terrorist groups it supplies-- and has announced its intention to destroy Israel.I consider the murder of its nuclear scientists an act of war, too.

NK

Clarice-- no war declaration by the Congress since December 1941. We have POTUS 'findings'.

Clarice

NK, as you know I'm talking facts, not law. As a matter of fact. Iran has been at war with us for decades and , if so, and if we are behind the assassinations they are acts of war, not random targetting of civiliansI've come to believe, BTW, that the entire Iranian nuclear program is so badly done that should they try to use what they have they'll probably just blow themselves up..Maybe the scientists are blowing themselves up because they know their work's been carp.

Jim Ryan

And is it "politically motivated"?

There's the rub. Tom, this phrase includes the moral normativity you were looking for. To blow people up because one desires political power over the group they belong to is the politically motivated act called "terrorism." But to blow them up in order to stop them from killing or oppressing one's own people is "good guy" stuff. It's no more a political act than trying to punch a Nazi who has his boot on your neck.

Blowing up that scientist was not a political act. It was pre-emptive self-defense. It was intended to terrify the other Iranian scientists who want to kill all the Israelis. It wasn't terrorism. Terrorism is political; it is not self-defense. "Terrorism" by definition has "bad guys" packed into it.

MarkO

I liked it more when we didn't worry so much about killing the enemy.

NK

FACTS?-- who's blowing up Iranians? who's helping? IF-- and it's a HUGE IF-- if the USA is doing or assisting with the killings based on 'Bam's finding that Iran is waging war against the USA, I'd have a lot more respect for 'Bam. Course his Leftwing base would go nutz.

Pops

I don't mind killing the Iranian scientists, but I think getting off your motorcycle and peeing on their dead bodies is just un-called for......


So who fears if Romney wins that he will do to the Federal Government what Bain did to failing businesses? Streamline, cut the dead would, restructure, fix what's broken, make it profitable and competitive??

I say Bain away at the Federal monster!!

Pops

Have you see then new National Endowment for the Arts piece:

Piss Taliban.

Its a performance art piece paying homage to Andres Serrano.

I think the left needs to get behind supporting the Arts!!

NK

Pops-- don't tease me. the thought that Mitt would cut down Leviathan and take the burden off taxpayers and businesses.. that's just too good to believe.

Frau Genug-ist-genug

"I liked it more when we didn't worry so much about killing the enemy."
...or peeing on their death bodies afterward.

Heaven forbid, if we would burn their bodies, string up pieces of them on display or let children practice soccer with charred body parts.

jimmyk

I say Bain away at the Federal monster!!

I guess I'm ok with that as long as it doesn't mean Staples-like growth of the Leviathan. I believe Mitt can probably improve efficiency and cut costs, but is it in his mindset to shrink what he controls?

Sorry, this really belongs on the other thread, but since it came up here....

Ignatz

--So who fears if Romney wins that he will do to the Federal Government what Bain did to failing businesses?--

Not me.
Bain operated in the marketplace.
The government does not and cannot be made to operate as though it does.

Jane

I don't mind killing the Iranian scientists, but I think getting off your motorcycle and peeing on their dead bodies is just un-called for......

Really! Where is a drone when we need it? Oh yeah, flying over Boston...

NK

Here's a quote from Col. Allen West USAA about the marines. I agree with him, especially the last sentence, enjoy:

“The Marines were wrong. Give them a maximum punishment under field grade level Article 15 (non-judicial punishment), place a General Officer level letter of reprimand in their personnel file, and have them in full dress uniform stand before their Battalion, each personally apologize to God, Country, and Corps videotaped and conclude by singing the full US Marine Corps Hymn without a teleprompter.

“As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell.”

NK

Col West (Ret.) of course, now Congressman West.

LouP

I'm so confused. Until this all came up, I was about convinced that the world outside the USA believed: one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Situational ethics rears its ugly head again.

Danube of Thought

"Is a scientist engaged in developing weapons a noncombatant?"

Yes. And if he is engaged developing nuclear weapons for Iran I would without hesitation order him killed, regardless of the wording of any statute or treaty.

I think we need to do what it is plainly necessary to do, and not get trapped in this lawfare bullshit.

Clarice

Cong. West--Love that man.

Sue

NK,

Seems the Col. felt the same way I did.

NK

DoT-- FYI: the CIA and Spec Forces operatives are VERY concerned about the "lawfare BS" because they can only kill based on lawful orders, otherwise they have no immunity to prosecution. killing Iranians on Iranian soil needs a POTUS finding of a threat to US Nat'l Security by a hostile power.

Clarice

NK, Surely that doesn't mean Lawrence Tribe has to vet the orders for them.

NK

I have no idea who lawyers orders to CIA covert operators.

steve

The issue is not the tactics our enemies use to kill us but rather the fact that they are trying to do so.

And I care less about how we go about killing our enemies than whether we do and whether we do so in a way that minimizes American casualties.

Clarice

NK, I think the guys are safe from prosecution if the orders are given in the normal way and appear to be lawful.

NK

Order to go to Iran and to give some locals C4 and motorcycles with photos of a guy they need to send to the 72 blackeyed virgins? those are orders given in the normal way that appear to be lawful? I think Val Plame would have wanted to get something in writing-- don't you?

Neo

Did I miss the Press Release on Recovery Winter ?

So who other than the 1% will be visiting:
http://store.barackobama.com/runway-to-win.html

It's not just a political campaign, it's a fashion statement.

JM Hanes

O/T to Pops:

"I say Bain away at the Federal monster!!"

Going Bain, the new! improved! Going Galt. /O/T


Lawfare, sheesh. It's like Jimmy Carter "reforming" the C.I.A., because the U.S. doesn't pay bribes or associate with bad guys; human intel be damned.

Melinda Romanoff

Heard chatter that things are hopping at Tinker and Sill.

Danube of Thought

NK, I'm well aware of what you say (as modified by Clarice's comment). What I'm describing is the policy I wish we were following.

I would assume, but do not know, that presidential findings of that kind do not require any determination as to whether the target is or is not a noncombatant.

Danube of Thought

"The ICRC Commentary to Article 43 makes an important observation in this regard:

“'All members of the armed forces are combatants, and only members of the armed forces are combatants. This should therefore dispense with the concept of 'quasi-combatants', which has sometimes been used on the basis of activities related more or less directly with the war effort. Similarly, any concept of a part-time status, a semi-civilian, semi-military status, a soldier by night and peaceful citizen by day, also disappears. A civilian who is incorporated in an armed organization ... becomes a member of the military and a combatant throughout the duration of the hostilities ... whether or not he is in combat, or for the time being armed.” (ICRC Commentary 515)

"This makes clear, that especially under the regime created by Protocol I, persons in a conflict zone are either combatants or non-combatants. Generally, members of armed forces are combatants, unless rendered hors de combat. The civilian population are non-combatants and as such are granted extensive protections under both the Geneva Conventions and Protocols. There is no third category of ‘quasi-combatants’ for the purposes of the law."

NK

DoT-- finding, subject to disclosure to the House/Senate Intel committees that the POTUS determins a threat to national security exists and the steps taken to protect against the threat. I've never read the text of a finding: I assume they always say the threat is an unlawful combatant and lawful target.

Barbara
“As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell.”

God bless Congressman Lt. Col. West.

narciso

Looks like thee superbowl will give it a big boost


http://www.deadline.com/2012/01/super-bowl-act-of-valor-relativity/

Neo

The problem is that the Senate does most of its work by unanimous consent—meaning without objection from present Members and without a vote or quorum. Even a single Senator alone on the floor (or “as a practical matter” one from each party) can use this process to modify the standing order in a heartbeat and conduct business.

The Senate did exactly that to pass Mr. Obama’s payroll tax holiday in December, changing a standing order by unanimous consent to conduct business during an ostensibly pro forma session. Mr. Obama signed that bill. Either that was a real session and therefore his recess appointments are unconstitutional or the bill was invalidly enacted and therefore unconstitutional. Both can’t be true.

Clarice

If we had anything to do with this, it is most likely the order was to provide general aid and assistance to dissidents working in Iran.

Jack is Back!

Damn good thing that scientist was the subject of "boom" job instead of being urinated on - we'd never hear the end of it.

When I was living in Southern Maryland near the project I was working on I came home one Saturday to find the front door broke in like in kicked in. Nothing missing excep the fridge had been emptied of some beer and food which was still out on the table. Turns out this was the work of two young Marines from 8th and Eye St. Barracks that were a little drunked up (a marina with bar down the road) and they needed to take a pee. One thing led to another.

When the state police brought them by and asked if I wanted to press charges I declined. I told the SP to return them to their barracks but make sure their 1st Sgt. knew what they had done. That punishment, IMO, was going to be more effective than anything the civilian authorties would ever mete out and left me free from a future trial and testimony.

Let the Marines take care of the Marines.

Barbara

{Congressman Colonel West}

NK

Clarice-- something like that, but the Intel committes wouldn't accept that covert assistance w/o a POTUS finding that the Mullahs are a threat to US national security. The 1991 amendments require such disclosure to avoid the Iran-Contra stuff again; I bet GWB made such a finding, 'Bam can piggyback off that;

DoT-- I glanced at that Aussie stuff. Looked pretty comprehensive. AQ fighters are "unlawful combatants" that means they are combatants even though they don't wear a uniform, but they are NOT owed POW status; the nuke scientists? they are civilians, but are they civilians preparing for military action so they lose certain immunities? this lawfare stuff is interesting.

centralcal

Been busy at work, so I am piping up late -

I LOVE ALLEN WEST!!!!!

Jack is Back!

Barbara,

Correction: Congressman Lieutenant Colonel West.

Melinda Romanoff

I read that after lunch for dessert, Clarice.

Went down well.

Neo

I'm sure blowing up these Iranian scientist could properly be justified if we said that their work might harm wildlife somewhere in the Middle East.

narciso

Guess who pops up like a bad penny, echoing the Iranian government, with perfect pitch;


http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/01/13/false_flag

centralcal

Clarice: Clicked on your WSJ link, but it is only for subscribers, dang it!

Clarice

Here's a tip, cc-copy the header and google it and you can usually get the article free.

MarkO

Judge finds that John Edwards has a serious heart-related medical condition. We know that's not true because _____________!(insert joke line here)

Barbara
If we had anything to do with this...

I doubt that we did. According to an article at the BBC (LUN), a motor cyclist pasted a bomb to the Iranian scientist's car and sped away. Based on my vast experience in these matters solely acquired from reading Daniel Silva's books featuring Gabriel Allon, master spy and art restorer, I would say the Israelis get the credit.

MarkO

The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo?

Barbara
Correction: Congressman Lieutenant Colonel West.

Thanks, JIB. Here I thought I was correcting my earlier post. I shoulda left well enough alone.

centralcal

Clarice: Thanks for that tip.

Old Lurker

I started the Gabriel Allon series in order from scratch based on the comments here and am now on the 11th and latest in the series.

I agree with Babara.

narciso

More of the latter than the former, Captain,

Melinda Romanoff

C-cal-

Opinion pieces are always available for free.

Try this link.

centralcal

Oh, thanks for the head's up, Mel. I read WSJ Opinion page all the time. Wonder why Clarice's link was dead end? Do you think because she is a subscriber her link differs?

Clarice

cc--I have no idea. I haven't activated my subscriber feature and I got the article straight away. Hmm?

bgates

We know that's not true because

he has nothing he considers a vital organ between his hair and his penis.

Melinda Romanoff

She linked from behind her subscription, I imagine. I clipped it from the front of the Opinion Section, instead of clipping the page url at the top of it, after clicking through with my subscription.

Melinda Romanoff

Blows that theory up.

Hmm.

jimmyk

I'm guessing Clarice has a cookie that pegs her as a subscriber and takes her to the behind-the-wall content. The link worked for me, and I never explicitly log in as a subscriber.

Sue

Bret Baier is tweeting they are watching for a late Friday of a holiday weekend for a Solyndra document dump.

Clarice

Yes, narciso..and I read that that's the position Kagan put in writing when she was the Solicitor--I expect if the case reaches the SCOTUS she will recuse herself.

Melinda Romanoff

Sue-

Not "White Gun"? (I wasn't kidding about there being another weapons op in the ATF, BTW. That was the name of it. Grassley and Issa are already peeved.)

Sue

Mel,

No word on White Gun, but Bret expects a Solyndra dump.

Sara

NEO: I thought the Senate required a quorum in order to conduct any business.

quorum - The number of Senators that must be present for the Senate to do business. The Constitution requires a majority of Senators (51) for a quorum. Often, fewer Senators are actually present on the floor, but the Senate presumes that a quorum is present unless the contrary is shown by a roll call vote or quorum call.

DOT: Sounds like the law needs to be updated. I doubt they envisioned these formalized (al-Queda, Hamas, etc.) terrorist organizations when it was written.

JMH: I absolutely love: Going Bain!

Sara

France and Austria had their AAA credit ratings downgraded.

matt

So we now have our very Meghrabi in the form of John Edwards.

Seems poor John has a life threatening heart condition. LUN.

Seems to me like the man deserves a threatened life.

centralcal

Sue: Ed Henry says WH is turning over 66 pages of Solyndra docs, but not all, because request was "too broad" and they have better things to do with their time than hunt for docs.

Danube of Thought

Peter Wehner:

"So it appears as if Newt Gingrich and Rick Perry have done a masterful job of securing what most political strategists consider to be the key demographic in South Carolina’s Republican Party: E.J. Dionne voters.

"When Dionne, who is about as reliable a liberal and as passionate a supporter of Barack Obama as you’ll find, is praising Republican politicians for their comments on capitalism, it tells you almost everything you need to know.

"Well done, gentlemen. Well done."

Danube of Thought

Looking at Narc's 3:33 link, I can just see Ari Shamron and Adrian Carter mapping it all out.

centralcal

A bit more on the Solyndra doc dump and I will stop:

edhenryTV Ed Henry
Substance of the new #Solyndra documents is about the company's decision to delay layoff announce until after 2010 midterm elex

Danube of Thought

Proud to say the Terry Curtin in Narc's 3:18 link is my sister's daughter.

centralcal

Very cool, DoT.

Sandy Daze

February 09, 2005

Rice: Iran must halt nuclear program

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said on Wednesday that Iran must live up to its international obligations to halt its nuclear program or "the next steps are in the offing."
9 March 2006
Rice: Iran ‘central bank for terrorism’

“We may face no greater challenge from a single country than from Iran, whose policies are directed at developing a Middle East that would be 180 degrees different than the Middle East we would like to see developed,” Rice said at a Senate hearing.
“This is a country determined to develop a nuclear weapon ... and is the central bank for terrorism.”

November 10, 2007
Condi Rice: U.S. Is OK With Iran Having Nuclear Power: Updated!

Rice: "...We have not even rejected the idea that Iran should have civil nuclear power and in fact, would be prepared under certain circumstances to participate in that. They just have to give up the fuel cycle -- the enrichment and reprocessing that can lead to the technologies that can lead to a nuclear weapon.
Aug 7, 2008
Rice threatens sanctions on Iran over nuclear program

"They should have felt like time is running out quite a long time ago," Rice said.
~~~~~
We know the Stuxnet virus took several years to fully weaponize, and after launch fully infect Iran's centrifuge controllers and other systems. Given that first public identification of Stuxnet was in June 2010. Stuxnet was working its magic for some 12-18 months before discovery. 18 months before the discovery was just about the time that Mr 43 bade farewell to the oval office. To create a virus/worm this capable must have take several years minimum. That means to me, back in the summer of 2006.

I suspect when Miss Rice was saying, to the effect, that the reactors were a clear and present danger and could not be allowed to stand, that steps were actually being taken to end the threat, meaning a Presidential finding, leading to a series of increasingly, destructive attacks on the Iranian nuclear weapons program.

As in most everything else involved with the War on Terrorism, Voldemort has simply continued the policies of his predecessor. Leading from behind to WTF.

OMG~ABO!
Sandy

Danube of Thought

Sara, I think there is a distinction betwee the Senate doing business and the Senate being in session. And I think MarkO is correct that, if the matter were presented to a court, the court would say that only the Senate, anot the judicial branch, can determine when it is in session.

Porchlight

That's great, DoT. I look forward to seeing the ads and the film. I usually don't bother with the whole Super Bowl ad thing, so this will give me a reason to pay attention.

Melinda Romanoff

Sara-

The downgrade list is a bit bigger than that, and it was pre-announced yesterday afternoon.

IMO, S&P is trying to play catch up for missing the boat entirely back in March of '07. (Bear Stearns goes kablooey)

Melinda Romanoff

DoT-

Perry and Gingrich denied access to VA ballot by judge.

I'll dig up a linkie in a sec.

Clarice

Looks like Hollywood finally noticed that films pissing on the troops aren't paying the bills.
Peter Wehner's take is absolutely hilarious---E.J. Dionne Republicans indeed.

MarkO

Way cool, DoT.

Danube of Thought

And now it's time to play Name That Party:

http://www.cantonrep.com/newsnow/x255282744/Dawn-Howard-now-focus-of-election-fraud-investigation

(Hint: you'll need Google to find the aswer.)

(Hint no 2: if you simply take a wild guess, you'll be right.)

Melinda Romanoff

OK, that's pretty cool, DoT.

Elliott

that steps were actually being taken to end the threat

I'm pretty sure there was a piece (probably in the Washington Times and obviously short on specifics) in either 2008 or 2009 suggesting that some kind of newfangled nerd-warfare had been given the go-ahead.

Sue

Terry Curtin, President, Theatrical Marketing said

That is wicked wild DoT.

scott

"The proximity fuse is, believe it or not, one of the foundations of today's electronics industry."

Got that right - Harry Diamond Lab's. FYI -should be prox fuze with a 'z' (you're swerving into my neck of the woods).

Sue

DoT,

Besides and awesome resume, she is beautiful.

centralcal

I would say, Terry Curtin, is pretty hot, too!

centralcal

GMTA, Sue!

Sue

C-cal,

::grin:: We so think alike.

NK

SandyD-- where in those articles is the statement or implication of a POTUS finding of the Mullahs as a nuke threat? My personal opinion is that GWB42 made such a finding, but where is that documented or implied in those aticles/quotes?

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