An Epic Fail By David Brooks

David Brooks decides that all tax breaks and government spending are created equal, with deeply dubious results:

We Americans cherish our myths. One myth is that there is more social mobility in the United States than in Europe. That’s false. Another myth is that the government is smaller here than in Europe. That’s largely false, too.

Did he say "social mobility"?  Or did he say "Susquehanna Hat Company"?  Let's focus on the 'big government' argument:

The U.S. does not have a significantly smaller welfare state than the European nations. We’re just better at hiding it. The Europeans provide welfare provisions through direct government payments. We do it through the back door via tax breaks.

For example, in Europe, governments offer health care directly. In the U.S., we give employers a gigantic tax exemption to do the same thing. European governments offer public childcare. In the U.S., we have child tax credits. In Europe, governments subsidize favored industries. We do the same thing by providing special tax deductions and exemptions for everybody from ethanol producers to Nascar track owners.

These tax expenditures are hidden but huge. Budget experts Donald Marron and Eric Toder added up all the spending-like tax preferences and found that, in 2007, they amounted to $600 billion. If you had included those preferences as government spending, then the federal government would have actually been one-fifth larger than it appeared.

...

You might say that a tax break isn’t the same as a spending program. You would be wrong.

David Bradford, a Princeton economist, has the best illustration of how the system works. Suppose the Pentagon wanted to buy a new fighter plane. But instead of writing a $10 billion check to the manufacturer, the government just issued a $10 billion “weapons supply tax credit.” The plane would still get made. The company would get its money through the tax credit. And politicians would get to brag that they had cut taxes and reduced the size of government!

Well, that certainly proves that some tax breaks can be made to resemble some direct spending.

But consider a spectrum of policies.  In case 1, the government gives me a $1,000 tax child care credit; I am free to spend this on an X-box, a vacation, or on any of a number of privately run daycare centers.

In case 2, the government gives me a voucher for $1,000 redeemable at any day care center.  Good-bye X-box!

And in case 3, the government keeps the $1,000, builds a day care center, hires staff, and waits for me to drive up to drop off the munchkins.

Would Mr. Brooks really argue that all three are equal manifestations of an intrusive "Big Government", all re-shaping the economy equally?  His math says they are equal, but who believes that?

Well.  His basic plea for tax simplification will fall on deaf ears - both parties seem to be hooked on it, and IMHO it can only happen in an environment of revenue cutting, not revenue raising.  Nostalgia buffs may recall that I rehashed this back when Mr. Brooks was fantasizing about an Obama plea for tax simplification back in December 2010.

Comments

[NK]

Susquehanna hat company?.... slowly I turn.
TomM-- if you're right that tax simplification will never happen because repubs are hooked on it.. then evrything else is BS because we are doomed by Leviathan. Until Leviathan DC is cut down to size by taking away tax code shenanigans, we are doomed.

[Cecil Turner]

I agree with him on one point: social mobility is beginning to be a problem. Unfortunately for his conclusion, taxing higher wage earners will exacerbate the problem rather than fix it.

[Ben Franklin]

When you think about the choices given Maguire, you will note the absence of choice for the 1% after the Ninety-Nine cornered the Markets.

"Paper, or plastic, sir?"

Gas prices? You can spend a couple of bucks to drive around and shop to save 30-50 cents on a tankfull.

Cell phone? Ditto...

Shall I continue?

[Extraneus]

Hard to know which thread to post this on, so here goes.

CA forces judges to disclose their sexual preferences

In order to make sure gays and lesbians are adequately represented on the judicial bench, the state of California is requiring all judges and justices to reveal their sexual orientation. The announcement was made in an internal memo sent to all California judges and justices.

[Clarice]

He's just as wrong about social mobility.

Oh, why even bother explaining..?The chid of a poor immigrant has a much better chance of getting into a good college and getting a professional degree than any kid whose family has been living in France's banlieues for several generations.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Would Mr. Brooks really argue that all three are equal manifestations of an intrusive "Big Government", all re-shaping the economy equally? His math says they are equal, but who believes that?

People in the Crypto-Monarchist Party.

[Ben Franklin]

Shades of Rove. It's the same strategy used against Kerry. Attack the opponent's strongest traits.

http://nationaljournal.com/2012-presidential-campaign/romney-turn-the-tables-strategy-could-turn-on-him-for-the-fall-20120223?page=1

"MILFORD, Mich. — The most consistent note in Mitt Romney’s 2012 campaign is attacking his rivals for their ideological inconsistency. It’s a nervy strategy for a candidate whose own greatest vulnerability is the sense, especially among conservatives, that he has serially reconsidered his positions for political advantage on issues from abortion to gay rights to immigration."

[AliceH]

Social mobility? Or Economic mobility? I thought it was the latter that looks to have decreased recently.

I do seem all hung up on terminology lately.

[Captain Hate]

O/T Things have just fallen apart since Eric Stoltz left http://minx.cc/?post=326962

[Jack is Back!]

The REAL people praying that Congress tries to reform the tax code or go for simplification are the Gucci set on K street. Tax legislation is a cornucopia of ill-gotten gains for the tax lobbyists. It puts their grand children through college and they aren't even born yet.

And after all the twisting and turning and pushing and shoving you will end up with very little but more 1 percenters than currently.

[Ignatz]

--TomM-- if you're right that tax simplification will never happen because repubs are hooked on it.. then evrything else is BS because we are doomed by Leviathan.--

Only two more years to the 200th anniversary of the burning of Washington.
Anybody got a match?

[Neo]

In case 2, the government gives me a voucher for $1,000 redeemable at any day care center. Good-bye X-box!

The was a great YouTube of Jude Judy and a guy who got money for rent while he went to college. LUN
Bottom line: while everybody in courtroom could see that the money in question should go toward "rent", our buddy scholar merely saw the money has "his money"

[NK]

Ig-- to anyone watching at the DHS or IRS, Ignatz was strictly joking. No intent to foment violence was included in his comment. Right Ig?

[Ben Franklin]

Commerce Clause......inconvenient, isn't it?

http://consortiumnews.com/2012/02/24/madison-father-of-the-commerce-clause/

" the Right seizes on Madison’s efforts during the ratification of the Constitution to play down how radical a transformation he engineered, while ignoring his long record of decrying the Articles of Confederation for their weak central government. The Right also doesn’t mention Madison’s proud promotion of the Commerce Clause and other important federal powers.

It is problematic indeed that Madison, the Right’s new Tea Party icon, was actually the key advocate of the Commerce Clause, which gave the federal government broad powers to regulate interstate commerce and has served as the basis for programs as diverse as Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal, Dwight Eisenhower’s federal highway system and Barack Obama’s health-care reform.

[lyle]

Anybody got a match?

I've got some...er...accelerants handy. Okay, it's really only a fifth of 150 proof rum.

[Extraneus]

Obama administration sees Rio + 20 Summit in June as Festival of Global Greenness

With gasoline prices spiking, a presidential election looming in the fall, and recent failures at reaching sweeping global agreements on environmental policy, the Obama Administration is heading into this summer’s Rio + 20 Conference on Sustainable Development with modest goals, looking for areas of broad agreement and civic engagement that can be touted as populist environmental progress.

“We consider it an aspirational meeting,” a U.S. State Department spokesman told Fox News.

“This is a good, positive meeting,” in which “we go forward in as pragmatic a way as possible.”

[Danube of Thought]

Hollywood niece (a liberal) says the liberal critics are kicking Act of Valor (she couldn't care less) and the conservative ones are saluting it. Apparently Rush loved it. She says the critics only matter if you're making an art film.

I'm expecting boffo B.O. (I'm picking up the lingo).

[NK]

Dana-- interestly enough, the POTUS has sworn in briefs to the US Supreme Court that the Obamacare Mandate is a tax -- NOT an exercise of Commerce Clause Power. The Commerce Clause was an absolutely necessary extension of central government power to correct the inadequate central government in the Articles of Confederation. 220 years later, the power mongers in DC have distorted the Commerce Clause and federalism generally beyond all recognition. BTW-- I'm a big Madisonian.

[lyle]

“We consider it an aspirational meeting,” a U.S. State Department spokesman told Fox News.

“This is a good, positive meeting,” in which “we go forward in as pragmatic a way as possible.”

How do they vote for the high priest of this ecumenical conclave? Feather passing?

[NK]

Further BTW Dana-- one of the weaknesses of the Articles was to lack of a sufficient common defense against violence, when a State's militia proved inadequate to put down interruptions of domestic tranquility. The specific event -- why Shay's Rebellion attacking evil bankers who were foreclosing on farms. So one could argue Hamilton/Madison were protecting Fat Cat bankers. A link to wiki on Shay's Rebellion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays'_Rebellion

[Clarice]

A ypung woman apologizes to karzai. If you like this, help make it viral.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYEctbGSkkw

[Jane]

DOT,

Rush raved about Act of Valor, endlessly today. Someone was smart enough to send him an advance copy.

We do not believe in movie theaters where I live so I probably will not see it, but he certainly made me want to.

[Ben Franklin]

Well, NK. Florida 11th circuit says it's a penalty, not a tax.

http://nahmodlaw.com/2012/01/18/the-patient-protection-and-affordable-care-act-the-commerce-clause-and-constitutional-trust/

(Other aspects of this decision (a) upheld the Act’s Medicaid expansion provisions against a Spending Power challenge, (b) held that the individual mandate was a penalty, not a tax, and thus.Congress could not use the Taxing power to enact it, (c) held that the individual mandate was not a valid exercise of Congress’s power under the Necessary and Proper Clause and (d) held that the (unconstitutional) individual mandate could be severed from the rest of the Act.)

[Neo]

Tim Geithner says on CNBC that the rich need to pay more in taxes becuase that is a "Privilege Of Being An American"

[hit and run]

NK:
Ig-- to anyone watching at the DHS or IRS

Or the NIFC which coordinates efforts of both the USFS and BLM operating under the USDA and DOI respectively.

[Clarice]

Jane, somehow I think it will become available online or on pay to view .

[centralcal]

Bravo to that young woman. Thanks for sharing it, Clarice!

[Ignatz]

--Ig-- to anyone watching at the DHS or IRS, Ignatz was strictly joking. No intent to foment violence was included in his comment. Right Ig?--

Wrong.

And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure.

Good enough for TJ, good enough for me.

[NK]

Dana-- yes that 11th Circuit decision is where the Obama Admin LOST and the mandate was invalidated by the Court, the Obama Admin is appealling that to the Sup Ct claiming that the 11th Circuit was wrong and the mandate is a tax. Another Circuit ruled that the mandate is a tax. In any event, the simple truth is that the DC centralized power mongers have abused the Commerce Clause to claim central power over individual citizens in a way never supported by Madison. surely as an OWS supporter, you must object to this massive expansion of power by THE MAN.

[Ben Franklin]

"Good enough for TJ, good enough for me."

Calm the fuck down, Ig.

[NK]

Ig-- TJ did die with massive personal debts that he shoved on his heirs. I believe some of them did some debtor prison time for those debts. TJ did have a way with words though. As I told Dana, bottom line I am much more a Madisonian than Jeffersonian.

[lyle]

We Americans cherish our myths. One myth is that there is more social mobility in the United States than in Europe. David Brooks could be characterized as anything remotely "conservative".

ed. lyle

[lyle]

But he sure can spot a well-creased pantleg, so he's got that going for him.

[Ben Franklin]

" surely as an OWS supporter, you must object to this massive expansion of power by THE MAN."

Yes, I know it lost. That's why I thought the Court's belief that it is a penalty would have some creds with you. I see nothing wherein Obama has sought to make it a tax rather than a penalty.

As to THE MAN; it depends on the man.

[Danube of Thought]

TJ loaded Monticello up with French wines for which he could not pay. A frailty, to be sure. He was also the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. Take him all in all.

[NK]

Dana-- thanks for the honesty, seriously--
you said: "As to THE MAN; it depends on the man."
Dana, you are a nihilist power monger. If there is a tyranical government that takes care of Dana, and gives Dana what Dana WANTs, that's fine with Dana. Nice. Freedom, liberty mean nothing to Dana, just give Dana the material pleasures he wants, and everyone, including Dana, can be oppressed. I actually thought better than you, than you do of yourself. Sad.

[daddy]

OT

Can't get Typepad to download my write-up of my recent Tour of Bangalore, so I beg your indulgence if anyone cares, as I try to break it up into postable bits. Apologies in advance if I disturb the thread.

JiB,

OT, but late in replying about visiting the Nandi Bull Temple in Bangalore. It proved a fun visit.

Bangalore, at 3,000 feet elevation, is so much cooler than sweltering Bombay and Delhi, and at only 11 Million population, not the 12 and 13 million of the other 2, who could complain? Traffic and pollution were awful, but again in comparison to her big sisters, she was as clean as a whistle, and that's how I viewed things. My co-worker however, never having been to India before, was appalled. (I love observing reactions like that:)

The big Bull was cool. Shiva rides on him etc, and according to the Temple caretakers this one was carved in the 1500's-1600's to stop a real bull from eating all the local peanuts. Unfortunately, since peanuts are a New World Product and didn't arrive into India until the 18th Century, one is left anachronistically scratching one's head, but that happens over here a lot. A good visit; got the red dot inscribed on my forehead for my 20 Rupee donation, but earned 100 times the pleasure of the donation from watching my squeamish co-worker worried at the germs being sucked up by his bare feet from traipsing the the local dirt and from inhaling the coconut oil drenching the sacred black bull monolith---Priceless:) A good man...

[jimmyk]

TJ did die with massive personal debts that he shoved on his heirs

I've heard that, but have never been clear on it. Was the law different back then? Debt (personal, at least) can't be pushed onto heirs nowadays, at least not as far as I'm aware.

[Jack is Back!]

Clarice,

Thanks for that vid. I just sent it out to our Veteran's committe hoping from them it goes big time viral. "Lack of balls" indeed.

[daddy]

...Enjoyed also touring Bangalore Palace, neat old Sultan's home from the 1880's. Interesting to tour each room with a headset explaining the furnishings. Was somewhat expecting reminders of "Indiana Jones and The Temple Of Doom" but found instead that the last Sultan was into dozens of terrible paintings (almost Elvis on velour style) of scantily clad naked western gals with their big hooters hanging out. Co-worker remarked that "he admired the sentiment, but man, this cats got awful taste." Truer words, n'er spoke.

It really struck me how now with the internet I/we can see the entire world and any actual painted masterpiece in it at an instant, but the 14th Sultan of whomever couldn't so therefore in 1880 he had prominently hung a terrible knockoff copy painting of "The Rape Of The Sabine Women", probably by some Pickadilly street hustler, and that was the centerpiece of his Gallery. I too "admired the sentiment", but...

[Ben Franklin]

"I actually thought better than you, than you do of yourself. Sad."

You gleaned all that from a simple statement?

You're a better man than I, Gunga Din.....

[lyle]

TJ loaded Monticello up with French wines for which he could not pay.

I toured Monticello a few years back. It was wild seeing very old (empty) bottles of Burgundy and Bordeaux near the kitchen. Suffice to say, the French don't exactly update their labels.

[NK]

JimmyK-- I'm no expert on 18th century Virginia creditor/debtor law, but apparently the coastal cavaliers who ran 18th century Virginia were less enlightened than the Federal bankruptcy Code. As Dana would say, those cavalier bankers were THE MAN, and debtor yeoeman farmers and their children were screwed if they couldn't repay the bank.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

I believe some of them did some debtor prison time for those debts.

I'd sure like to see that documented. I'm pretty sure the US has never had explicit debtors' prison.

[NK]

Dana-- Churchill said "a little joke is a serious thing." Thanks for the compliment, though, I like Kipling.

[bgates]

Clarice, I've forwarded that apology around. Thanks.

[Cecil Turner]

Only a lib would argue the commerce clause regulates non-commerce. (And that "necessary and proper" covers whatever they think would be nice.)

Either SCOTUS will strike down Obamacare, or "enumerated powers" will cease to have meaning. Not sure how much difference it'll make, either way. At least libs are consistent: they support that abortion of a bill.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Here's what the Monticello Society says:

Many factors contributed to Jefferson's indebtedness, many of them beyond his control. These are only a few reasons behind the accumulation of his debt:

Jefferson inherited a great deal of debt from his father-in-law, John Wayles, when Wayles died in 1774.

Although Jefferson was wealthy in land and slaves, farming proved to be an unreliable and inadequate source of income. Also, although Jefferson himself was a major creditor, payments owed to him were unreliable and inadequate as well.

Jefferson lived perpetually beyond his means, spending large amounts of money on building projects, furnishings, wine, etc.

The financial panic that occurred in 1819 added a substantial burden onto his already-substantial debt. Also, he acquired debt from a friend in particular late in life. In 1818, Jefferson endorsed a $20,000 note for Wilson Cary Nicholas. Nicholas died in 1820, and Jefferson was forced to take on his unpaid debt.

[Clarice]

thank you, bgates. I got it from verner BTW.

Here's an interactive religious topography of the US.http://www.usatoday.com/news/graphics/pew-religion-08/flash.htm

[NK]

Charlie thanks for the history. So TJ died deep in debt... any word if his heirs got stuck with that debt? debtor prison?

[daddy]

Of fun interest was Ishcon Temple. Only after arrival did we discover that Ishcon meant The "International Society for Krishna Consciousness". This was ground zero in Bangalore for the Hari Krishna's. At each of 108 steps climbing up the Temple you are supposed to queue in a line of other devotees and continually repeat the 16 words that will free you from the evilness of our current age and bring one internal peace and happiness:

"Hare Hrishna, Hare Hrishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare,
Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Rama".

Repeat 108 times a day and one is in bliss.

I don't want to look too long at that sequence of words I typed because I don't want it to become a sort of brain slug like "Aww Honey... Sugar Sugar...You are my candy girl..." from the Archies, that is never never ever going to leave my noggin in peace again. It was mantra'd over the loud speakers non-stop, so be forewarned.

[NK]

Daddy-- you're the best. Love the travelogs.

[daddy]

I don't want to look too long at that chanted sequence of words I typed above because I don't want it to become a sort of brain slug like "Aww Honey... Sugar Sugar...You are my candy girl..." from the Archie's, that is never, never, ever going to leave my noggin' in peace again. The Hare Krishna brain worm was mantra'd over the loud speakers non-stop, so be forewarned.

Anyhow, being non devotee's we 2 and our guide were able to sidestep the humongous line of hundreds doing the 'step-recite-step-recite' ritual. We breezed thru various images of Krishna's consorts, then wound up at the top of the Temple in a gorgeous cool domed hall, with fab ceilings paintings of blue skinned Krishna as a child mischievously stealing milk and butter.

The provided literature said that Krishna is a God because he has the 6 attributes of "All-attractiveness":

"one is attractive due to(1) wealth, (2) power, (3) fame, (4) beauty, (5) wisdom and (6) renunciation...Humanity in its history has not come across another personality with such activities unparalleled in the history of the world. By all historical accounts, Lord Krishna appeared 5,000 years back and played his part as a human being to perfection."

So I'm not a God. Bummer:( But I did get a lot of enjoyment watching my co-worker squirm about the possible diseases invading the soles of his feet). All one can say at such humorous moments, is WTF, or even better, "Hare Hrishna, Hare Hrishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Rama".

The Temple included a few wax figurines and statues of their dead saint Sri somebody. He looked to me like the Guru who converted Carlos Santana in the mid 80's to being Carlos "Devadip" Santana, when he rocked out in bliss with Mahavishnu John McLaughlin. Then met a nice Canadian gentleman with the big line of mud from the crown of his head to his nose and the red dot who I think used to be a College prof in California..."Hare Hrishna, Hare Hrishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Rama".

The Vedic literature about Krishna is "Bhagavid Gita--Wie Sie Ist" (Did that Desutch bit in honor of you Frau:) In English it's "As it is") It tells us to be happy, which now makes sense to me in reconsidering the case episode of the Hare Krishna from Oliver sack's terrific book of neurological case studies, "An Anthropologist on Mars".

The case of "The Last Hippie" describes a man suffering from the effects of a massive brain tumor, including anterograde amnesia, which prevents him from remembering anything that has happened since the late 1960s."

That is Steven, an old Grateful Dead fan, who has had a massive brain tumor after becoming a Hare Krishna but is not given medical treatment for his increasing blubbering and smiling senility caused by a horrendous brain tumor, because it is not viewed as an affliction but instead is viewed as saintly Krisha type behavior from a guy who goes blind and who turns more and more to the imbecilic happiness and renunciation of the world as is yearned for when one says 108 times every day, "Hare Hrishna, Hare Hrishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Rama".

Krishna, BTW, is now a Pixar type TV character, to help spread the word of the god. Meet Little Krishna

"Hare Hrishna, Hare Hrishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, You are my candy girl... and You've got me wanting you."

[jimmyk]

I suppose even today if the debt is tied to an asset (like real estate or a farm), and the heirs don't want to liquidate it, then they have to assume the debt. But they wouldn't be personally liable for it.

According to Wiki: "In 1833 the United States abolished Federal imprisonment for unpaid debts,[5] and most states outlawed the practice around the same time."

[Old Lurker]

TJ's S-I-L got into financial trouble on his own and went bust in the crash of 1819 if I recall my UVa days correctly. Debts were often assumed by children to preserve the family honor, but I never heard about an heir going to prison for them.

DoT is correct...take the man in full.

[Porchlight]

Does anyone care that Jefferson was deep in debt when he died? I certainly don't.

[Clarice]

Great, daddy. You aren't missing much around here. Michelle took another expensive vacay and then hit up big donors with a message to keep sacrificin' and Barack says we can get all the energy we need from pond scum.

[Ben Franklin]

"Does anyone care that Jefferson was deep in debt when he died? I certainly don't."

---low information voter------

[NK]

Porch-- I agree with DoT and OL that in evaluating historical figures, one should "take the man in full." And TJ's profligate personal lifestyle (plus libertine in Paris) compares very poorly with say Washington, who died with his worldly affairs, not only in order, but he emancipated and gave material aid to former slaves. So yes, how this Founder TJ conducted his personal affairs is important, to a degree.

[Frau Schnappsladen]

Political "studies" expert Chief Sham Wow of the Feather Heads is emulating our president and feigning to be his brother's keeper.

[Jack is Back!]

daddy,

Any idea why we don't see the Hare Krishna guys anymore at the airports? TSA?

Use to be part of the commercial flying culture to sit a bar waiting for your flight to be called and have the Krishna's entertain you:)

[NK]

'Bam = ALGAE!!!!!

[Porchlight]

Shut up, Dana. Jefferson is not on any ballot. The point is that highly-informed voters understand the value of his contribution regardless of his estate's fiscal condition at the time of his death.

[bgates]

I don't want it to become a sort of brain slug like "Aww Honey... Sugar Sugar...You are my candy girl..." from the Archies

I think it would become a brain slug like "He's So Fine" by Ronnie Mack.

the last Sultan was into dozens of terrible paintings (almost Elvis on velour style) of scantily clad naked western gals with their big hooters hanging out

Are you sure he was the last? I've noticed something similar on a blog just recently.

[Porchlight]

NK, I'm not disputing the contrast between TJ and Washington (whom I hold to be the greater man, for various reasons), just saying I can't get too worked up about any debt TJ might have left. Agree about "the man in full," generally.

[Frau Schnappsladen]

In 1830, Charles Goodyear was sent to jail in Philadelphia for debts and continued to work on his formula for rubber while there. In fact, he was jailed ten times for debts.

Chaco, Du bleibst großartig.

[NK]

fair enough Porch.

[Frau Schnappsladen]

daddy, you left out the "Honey, honey" part. We used to have over 40 bee hives (a bee yard)in the foothills here, and I've always been partial to that part of the song.

[Ben Franklin]

"Shut up, Dana"

I was trying to be humorous...

Have I failed?

[Jack is Back!]

daddy,

If you are ever again in Bangalore, you might want to take 40km trip to Nallur for the ruins of the Chennakeshava Temple. They are set in the grove of ancient Tamarind trees. My driver told me the trees were 1,000 years old and looked it. But the ruins are spectacular and there are no vendors or cafes or guys hawking t-shirts - just thousand year old Hindu altars, temples and such. Pretty neat.

[MarkO]

I love history. Took out a major in it, back when there wasn't nearly so much. But, I'm curious about things and about how and why people did what they did. Will Jefferson's debts or his bastard children make a difference in my regard for the Declaration of Independence? Of course not. The past is a foreign country. We have no standing to criticize the actions of those in different times. We can disagree, claim we would never do the same thing, but we are lying to ourselves. We don't know.

For a part of my life it was widely accepted that black and white children should not go to school together. Widely. JFK was slow to warm to MLK, Jr. Maybe the study of history can give one pause.

[daddy]

"Any idea why we don't see the Hare Krishna guys anymore at the airports?"

Here's a possibility.

[Ben Franklin]

"Maybe the study of history can give one pause."

All accurate info is all good. What I don't understand is the incurious amongst us.

Must be a Bush holdover.

[Sue]

who died with his worldly affairs, not only in order, but he emancipated and gave material aid to former slaves

I think he had a caveat. They were to be emancipated upon the death of Martha, who saw the necessity to emancipate them before they killed her off. ::grin::

[Ignatz]

Not sure what the debt TJ owed on his wine collection has to do with burning Leviathan down, but have at it.
And NK, I too am Madisonian so long as the structures he established are still functioning. A pretty good case can be made most aren't.

[Threadkiller]

"I was trying to be humorous...

Have I failed?"

Don't ask me.

[Porchlight]

"The past is a foreign country."

This is the first half of the first line of a great novel. Ten points for the person who guesses first. No googling!

[NK]

MarkO-- my point is that TJ wrote some of the most important word in history, that include "all men are created equally" and that liberty is endowed on all men by their same creator, but GW actually lived those words much better than TJ.

[Ben Franklin]

"Don't ask me."

That is depressing, TK.

Everyone relies on your humormeter....

[Ignatz]

--the last Sultan was into dozens of terrible paintings (almost Elvis on velour style) of scantily clad naked western gals with their big hooters hanging out--

--Are you sure he was the last? I've noticed something similar on a blog just recently.--

Well it's not exactly spring, but when a young man's fancies turn from the latest internecine bloodletting of Newt, Rick, Willard and Otis Sistrunk's fraternity brother at the University of Mars I can't think of a more rewarding place for them to turn.

[NK]

Porch-- I don't know that quote. I feel great shame. Ask Dana he's degreed by Yale.

dana-- I'm surprised you judge intellectual curiosity so important. I thought as long as THE MAN took care of you it was all good.

[Gmax]

Have I failed?

Only at everything you have ever attempted including relationships. Too bad the creator is not inclined to just give out As for breathing and bothering to attend class like you or you would be a winner...

[Porchlight]

NK, no worries. The novel is actually probably more obscure than the quote. But I was happy to be reminded of it.

[Ben Franklin]

" I thought as long as THE MAN took care of you it was all good."

Not the exclusion of independent verification. I am curious, but not yellow.

[Ben Franklin]

Can we anticipate a visit by the cock-puppet master?

[Chubby]

"pond scum"

skim baby skim

[NK]

Chubby-- excellent snark!!

[Ben Franklin]

"Ask Dana he's degreed by Yale."

What no independent verification; just regurgitating Danyoob's fallacious research?

Madison weeps.....

[Chubby]

I just started watching "Dinner with Andre" and five minutes in I'm bored to tears. Is there any gold in there? Is it worth persisting?

[Ben Franklin]

sorry;

'Danyoob's phallacious research....'

fifm

[Jack is Back!]

Porch,

Read The Go-Between as teenager. My grand-dad was an Englishman and had this collection of books from the late 1880's to the 1950's. Mostly British writers, especially Victorian but threw in a few Huxleys, Priestly's and Waughs (all of the Waughs:). I believe it was the last book he read before he passed away.

[NK]

"Exclusion independent Verification" that's a curious claim. You can disagree with the JOM 'convention wisdom', but around here the wisdom is based and and challenged by facts.

[NK]

apologies dana if you're not degreed by Yale. My recollection was that your website said you were.

[Chubby]

((Ten points for the person who guesses first. No googling!))

the worst of it is, I think I've read it ...

charlotte bronte?

[Chubby]

I think got it ... Daphne duMaurier

[Porchlight]

Prize goes to Jack is Back! Good work.

I love that book. Your grand-dad had good taste. You can see its influence in Atonement by Ian McEwan.

[Ben Franklin]

"the wisdom is based and and challenged by facts."

If you must say so, and you MUST. But the origin of this matter was precipitated by the comment that TJ's debt is not fit for discussion.

I believe those facts comprise the extent of curiosity; and that, my friend, is lacking.

But, you must curry the favor of the incurious, as well as the curious.

Understood........

[Porchlight]

Not quite, Chubby. But it's funny - I was just talking about Daphne duMaurier with my co-worker not 30 minutes ago.

[jimmyk]

Does anyone care that Jefferson was deep in debt when he died? I certainly don't.

Not "care" in the sense of judgment, but I'm fascinated by the lives of historical figures, especially the founding fathers. I've devoured biographies of Franklin, Washington, Hamilton, and others. All had flaws, as anyone does, and that's part of who they were. The personal flaws don't detract from the great political accomplishments, if anything one is reminded that these amazing people were also regular flesh and blood humans.

[jimmyk]

I just started watching "Dinner with Andre" and five minutes in I'm bored to tears.

It wasn't my cup of tea, but I know people I respect who absolutely loved it (and others that had exactly your reaction).