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February 10, 2012

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henry

Of course, once you stamp out religion, free stuff is the OP[iu]M of the masses.

Danube of Thought

This battle is being fought on the wrong terrain.

Porchlight

Isn't free and/or cheap contraception widely available already via PP and various other clinics?

Captain Hate

Every economist with an iota of professional self-respect should hire a hit man to dispose of Krugman because he makes the profession sound inferior to alchemists and phrenologists.

bgates

inserting religion into this argument

Like claiming that 18-year old intern inserted her vagina into JFK's member, this phrase gets the directionality of the assault completely reversed.

Porchlight

Cap'n,

Many lefties of my acquaintance subscribe to new age "health" practices which are today's equivalent of phrenology and alchemy. So it's no wonder they think Krugman is a wizard.

NK

Thanks TM-- for highlighting the truth. ObamaCare is not only tyranny, it's stupid and hurts everyone-- why? because that's what socialism does. Obamacare is tyranny because it dictates conscience and dictates what insurance products insurers can sell and what emmployers/employees MUST BUY. PLUS the individual mandate orders everyone to buy insurance whether they want to or not. Stupid because women in their 60s don't want to pay for contraceptive coverage, and women in the 20s/30s may want to have the extra income from lesser coverage and pay for it themselves, or maybe use rhythm. whatever -- it's their CHOICE. Obamacare is ANTI-choice. Tyranny and socialism. Obamacare is rightly named for its evil namesake.

bgates

They used to say there was no such thing as a free lunch, but that was before I unveiled the concept of Food Insurance. In return for a modest $500/mo premium, food insurance will provide you with a free breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day (up to a cost of $6/meal) after a $100 deductible. Join now and get our special February rate of $485!

Neo

When this is all done, we will be hearing how Brack Obama is such a caring guy, who just happened to be stone cold deaf at the beginning, the middle and the end.

Neo

You have got to love the message ...

During her [Nancy Pelosi's] comments, she said “by the way we’re asking people to contribute to us if they want to elect more reformers to Congress so we can do away with super PACs – we can do away with secret contributions.”
Send me money so we can get money out of politics.

It begs the question as to where the money goes that you might send in.

Threadkiller

Is the speech at the Apollo?

Threadkiller

BTW, Neo I have always appreciated your style of posting. I wish I could condense the way you do. You make good points in short order.

Mark Kleiman

You're aware, of course, that providing birth control more than pays for itself in reduced need for much-more-expensive maternity services? Of course you are. You're just hoping that your readers aren't.

Not Sara

I think the best way to address this is not contraception but religious freedom. Most people I know, Catholics and others, practice some form of birth control--not that I usually ask them!

Threadkiller

You should tell Obama, Mark, before he makes a fool of himself.

Captain Hate

You're aware, of course, that birth control can lead to risky sexual behavior that would require much-more-expensive treatment for STDs. Of course you are. You're just trolling like an asshole.

I R A Darth Aggie

Wait till some bright person proposes requiring fertile women to have contraceptive implants installed. Then you have less "unwanted" children placed on the welfare rolls.

Win-win!

jimmyk

providing birth control more than pays for itself

Isn't it great how people can just make up stuff to make them feel good?

Spending time commenting on blogs helps prevent Alzheimer's! Yeah, that's the ticket! I feel better already.

Jack is Back!

Not Sara,

Roman Catholics don't need contraceptives such as the pill or diaphram. They can use rythmn or calendar based birth control. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. That is why you see lots of large catholic families:)

lyle

If we're essentially subsidizing birth control, this a lousy way to go about it. And when did birth control morph into a health issue?

GMAX

I took Feb 10 in my own pool of when Zero would cave. Looks like I am agonizingly close to be declared a clairvoyant! This was so predictable, why cant progs see what everyone else does here, they are slitting their own throats? I hope they keep on doing what they are doing though it might mean 60 votes in the Senate...

jimmyk

I think the best way to address this is not contraception but religious freedom.

Fixed that for you. (No offense intended toward religion or religious freedom.)

Captain Hate

Without clicking on the link, I'm trying to figure out what point Krugerrand is trying to make. Should birth control be free in his barren mind? Or paid for by somebody else other than the person who uses it?

Dave (in MA)

Bill Whittle's latest is on topic for this thread.

lyle

If the Muslims were against this, Zero would have dropped this like hot rack. Christians? Screw them.

JeffC

just how expensive is birth control that you need it covered by insurance ?

we are not talking chemo here ...

bgates

providing birth control more than pays for itself

Uh-oh, I'm a little short of rent money this month. Better go buy more condoms.

lyle

rack => rock

But I'm not opposed to a hot rack, either.

bgates

providing birth control more than pays for itself in reduced need for much-more-expensive maternity services?

That's short-term thinking at best. Sure, we could prevent certain births through the provision of prepaid prophylactics, but those are just the kind of births that would otherwise fuel the true engine of the American economy, young people collecting unemployment checks.

Janet

Bill Whittle's latest is on topic for this thread.

Great link, Dave!

Ignatz

--But I'm not opposed to a hot rack, either.--

Hence the need for free birth control.

Chubby

((And when did birth control morph into a health issue?))

prolly around the same time that abortion morphed into a birth control issue

Porchlight
I think the best way to address this is not contraception but religious freedom.

Fixed that for you. (No offense intended toward religion or religious freedom.)

jimmyk,

I respectfully disagree. This is the one of the only battles since Obama took office where some of the left has joined with the right against the JEF. This is *because* it is a religious issue all across the political spectrum. More generic arguments about "liberty" provoke yawns at best and usually jeers from these folks. Going on and on about the erosion of liberty caused by the individual mandate, and the mandate that certain services be covered - as much as I wholeheartedly agree with those arguments - has not moved that needle with them one millimeter.

But the religious freedom argument is moving the needle. If left-leaning and moderate Catholics are spitting mad about this, fantastic. We are very fortunate to have their help and we desperately need their votes in November. Let's unite with them and find ways to fight together.

Use the leverage that's been handed to us and maximize it.

It's a no-brainer.

Benjamin Franklin

"It's free because someone else pays for it? Not really. The consensus among economists is that, regardless of who writes the check, payroll taxes and employee benefits are mostly borne by the employee in the form of lower wages."

Maguire has accidentally said something important.

The Vatican and their Hierarchy are SO concerned about their only remaining doctrine from the Male dominated power structure; the issue that sex is for procreation only. Sex for fun is bad.

Prescription drugs paid through self-insured entities (500 employees is the breakpoint for cost savings) and funded by insurance payments are paid into a trust which is administered by the insurance co they hire to pay claims from that trust fund.

The Catholic Church has a moral firewall. They don't pay it, the insurance co does the paying. So let's drop all the poutrage over their 'conscience'.

Melinda Romanoff

O/T-

Air Force buying 18,000 iPads.

lyle

The Vatican and their Hierarchy are SO concerned about their only remaining doctrine from the Male dominated power structure; the issue that sex is for procreation only. Sex for fun is bad.

Regurgitate much?

Jack is Back!

Thanks for the link, Dave (inMA).

I guess the only one of us who doesn't suck is Ben:)

lyle

Air Force buying 18,000 iPads

Since they sound vaguely like a women's hygiene product, they should be free!!

Jack is Back!

lyle,

When you're a documented anti-semite going anti-catholic is not that hard.

Mark Buehner

"Prescription drugs paid through self-insured entities"

Ahh self-insuring entities... you seem to forget they don't conform with Obamacare and will be fined out of existence accordingly.

*unless they are in a favored union and/or live in Pelosi's district and have groveled their way to a temporary waver.

Clarice

bgates, pls check the email acct you use for JOM correspondence.

Ignatz

I'm about as pro life a person as you'll find but I must admit even I'm driven to musing thoughtfully on the benefits of forced abortions and sterilizations whenever the Pelosi's and Barry's of the world begin begin their "reproductive rights" chatter.
Question is why is it the abortionists never seem to get the right ones?
They couldn't tell Stanley Ann was destined to raise an unwanted, insecure burden on society?
Surely somebody must have known no good could come from Michael Moore's pinniped mother making the migration to whatever birthing grounds she dropped Mikey onto.

Porchlight

Something I forgot to add -

Sarah Palin's first post when this all came down was an outreach to the moderate and liberal Catholics who stuck their neck out for Obama during the Notre Dame controversy. "Look how he paid you back for your faith in him," she said, in essence. She gets it.

CantHelpIt

Proofreading

2 little mistakes I noticed

magical thiking

that it Obama's world

NK

Dana says: They don't pay it, the insurance co does the paying. So let's drop all the poutrage over their 'conscience'." Oi vey - I'm almost sorry I said something nice about Dana in the other thread. Insurance companies don't 'pay' anything; they handle customer money to pay for everything. If they do a good job they reduce customer medical costs and keep the rest as profit; all subsidized by an an employer health insurance Federal tax benefit. So when 'Bam orders insurers to cover medical procedures, it forces the employer to pay for that covereage via high rates, and forces the covered employees to ultimately pay for those medical procedures via lower wages or higher deductibles. Hence TomM's completely apt "Free Lunch" reference. "Male Dominated power structure" -- I think one of Dana's Teaching Assistants wrote this crap.

Appalled

The Catholic Church has a moral firewall. They don't pay it, the insurance co does the paying. So let's drop all the poutrage over their 'conscience'.

Use some imagination, Ben. Imagine you have just received your benefit booklet from the Immaculate Heart of Mary Medical Center. And on page 33, there is the listing of birth control services you receive, the abortion rights you, and a list of in-network Planned Parenthood centers where you can get the abortion.

You are requiring a church run charity that just happens to benefit others to provide instructions on how to eliminate your unborn child. If you can't get the problem with that, well...

What will likely happen is that affected hospitals and charities will dump their employees into the exchanges, and make the government pay for them. Good policy move, there, don't you think?

Mark of Lombard

Before this accommodation, Catholic hospitals were going to have to provide health insurance for their employees that would allow their employees to get contraceptives that would be covered by their insurance. And now, Catholic hospitals are going to have to provide health insurance for their employees that will allow their employees to get contraceptives that will be covered by their insurance. This is how Obama likes to compromise with his opponents.

Ignatz

--the issue that sex is for procreation only. Sex for fun is bad--

Ben, at least try to make an honest argument.
Catholics believe that sex for fun is quite good but that the procreative aspect of it should not be artificially removed.

Cecil Turner

Nobody TANSTAAFL'd yet?

Harrumph.

(Give the Governor Harrumph!)

Benjamin Franklin

" Insurance companies don't 'pay' anything; they handle customer money to pay for everything. If they do a good job they reduce customer medical costs and keep the rest as profit;"

Wrong.

When employer's self-insure, all the insurance co gets is administrative costs. Any savings from NOT paying premiums directly to the Insurance co remains in the trust; hence the wisdom of self-insuring

Captain Hate

I'm still waiting for the usual suspects to start posting images of hot racks to followup lyle's comment.

Mark Buehner

"You're aware, of course, that providing birth control more than pays for itself in reduced need for much-more-expensive maternity services?"

I'm aware thats the theory. But like all of these central planning schemes there is a high probability is won't work out the way it 'should'.

The first questionable assumption is that accidental pregnancies are by and large happening to couples because they can't afford birth control... as opposed to those that just dont bother with it. If, as I suspect, accidental pregnancies aren't materially affected by this 'free' birth control, you end up with both higher health care premiums (wait, free stuff isnt free?!) and the same accidental pregnancy costs.

And if i'm wrong about this... WHY DIDNT THE INSURANCE COMPANIES FIGURE THIS PANACEA OUT YEARS AGO AND GIVE AWAY 'FREE' BIRTH CONTROL? I promise you Blue Cross knows better than Obama if this scheme is likely to work. If it were profitable they would already be doing it.

Benjamin Franklin

Ig;

The Doctrine says that original sin was, yikes! SEX.

Melinda Romanoff

Cecil-

I'm still trying to figure out who's Hedley in this farce.

NK

Appaled/MarkB -- raise 2 very important points about the tyranny and corruption that is Obamacare. MarkB-- unions/McDonalds Cities got Obamacare waivers-- why not believers in God? Appalled hits the ultimate point-- the whole Obamacare POS is designed to destroy privately funded healthcare, toss people into exchanges that will fail, so we'll have a single payer system by default. That's been the Dem Party plan since before Medicare. And then, we'll have medical care by political power and corruption. And when anarchists like Dana see what government bureaucracy medical tyranny looks like, they'll long for the day they could go to a Catholic hospital and be treated the way they wanted with their university/TIAA medical covereage.

Porchlight

Mark Buehner,

Not only that, birth control has been plenteous and affordable for at least the last 30 years. It hasn't reduced the steady rise in number of abortions and the explosion in births to single women. And neither will "free" contraception.

Just because you make it free, doesn't mean people will use it. It's already free or close to it, and people don't use it.

narciso

Yes, Porch, but Duke and Duke, made it quite clear they didn't want her in 'their reindeer
games,

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150526762153435

Appalled

Ben:

The wisdom of self-insuring has more to do with private employer's trying to avoid state law mandates on the benefits they provide, because of a loophole in pre-PPACA law. There's very little wisdom in it now, because there is no way to design yourself out of PPACA's mandated benefit package, and the compliance costs are, by design, too high for a plan with not terribly many lives to deal with.

Melinda Romanoff

NK-

Don't forget the whole "More Pie For Me!"/Malthusian aspect to the racket.

Porchlight

The Doctrine says that original sin was, yikes! SEX.

It was? News to me.

Benjamin Franklin

" Good policy move, there, don't you think?"

Appalled; It could happen that way, but to Maguire's point, employee benefits are often the carrot employers offer to acquire the best employees. So, if they want the quality of their medical services diminished, that will be their choice; or...................................

they could reform their outdated doctrine.

Remember the prohibition of eating meat on Friday?

jimmyk

Use the leverage that's been handed to us and maximize it.

Porch, that's a fair argument. I just worry about the implicit concession that only religious freedom is a third rail, whereas Barry can get away with whatever the h*** he wants otherwise. I know you don't think that, but that's the trap.

It's like we're the battered spouse who is now grateful only to be beaten twice a week instead of daily.

So if we win on this, I want the response not to be, "Yay, we won," but "Now onto the larger issue...."

Benjamin Franklin

"The wisdom of self-insuring has more to do with private employer's trying to avoid state law mandates"

I disagree. Companies do it for cost/benefit.

Whitehall

Actually, birth CONTROL is free.

It is SEX that is expensive. Don't have sex and additional outlays are not required.

As every man knows, sex costs money - cocktails, dinners, flowers, etc etc. Why should women have someone else pay their way for an active sex life?

Oh, women already do - I forgot.

lyle

I'm still waiting for the usual suspects to start posting images of hot racks to followup lyle's comment.

Yeah. Get busy, people!

jimmyk

Just because you make it free, doesn't mean people will use it. It's already free or close to it, and people don't use it.

No problem. Now that we are into mandates, we can just mandate that people use it. After all, if they don't, they may have children who will engage in interstate commerce.

Captain Hate

I wish Stanley Ann Dunham had been on birth control when she was whoring around; it would be much more cost effective for the entire nation. Was that the point Kleiman was making? I may have misunderestimated him.

NK

Dana-- Self-Insuring medical costs can be a very wise business plan for large institutions, especially coupled with using an expert insurance company for cost controls. Many institutions have done just that in the last 30 years as medical costs skyrocketed. Alas Dana-- as MarK B pointed out above, Obamacare intentionally makes self-insurance financially impossible, that's why all of those Friends of Barry (unions, McDonalds etc.)got waivers. If you're not a friend of Barry you either dump your employees into exchanges, or you pay higher Obamacre premiums or cut wages or both. Dana-- are you starting to get the point that Obamacare is only about power, it doesn't reduce social medical costs or improve people's lives, it just transfers the power over healthcare financing to Federal bureaucrats. It's Orwelian. What happens if there is a POTUS Santorum and his bureaucrats bar healthcare for anarchist faculty? Something to ponder.

jimmyk

As every man knows, sex costs money - cocktails, dinners, flowers, etc etc.

Doesn't Obamacare cover these expenses? If not, I demand to know the reason.

narciso

True, Jimmy, you notice how the left never takes no for an answer. Beck was this morning
describing how the State Department effectively blackmailed Kenya through foreign aid, and a concurrent public relations effort worth 12 million, to explicitly incorporate abortion into their constitution.

Similarly after at least one AQAP leader, Saeed Al Shehri, and the founder of the Pakistani Taliban, Abdallah Mehsud, arose
from the ranks of released Gitmo detainees,
the Levick Grp talking points mouthed by
Adam Smith. about 'the nationalsecurity
advantages of closing Gitmo. one can add
Moazzam Begg, the fellow who recruited AbdulMutallab to AQ, in that list.

Cecil Turner

I don't suppose I'm the first guy to notice that if we just repeal that health care law (like a majority of the electorate wants, anyway) that all these problems go away.

Captain Hate

narc, is there any doubt that Sarah will deliver a stone cold stunner at CPAC later?

Jane

I'm sitting next to Steve Hollander of Reuters who types faster than anyone I've ever seen and is tweeting this whole thing if you went to follow him. He is WH press corps who now follows Romney. Interesting guy.

Porchlight

So if we win on this, I want the response not to be, "Yay, we won," but "Now onto the larger issue...."

Absolutely, jimmyk.

Benjamin Franklin


NK;

"Obamacare intentionally makes self-insurance financially impossible,"

See page 6 pdf

http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/pdf/ACASelfFundedHealthPlansReport032811.pdf

Jack is Back!

There is no prohibition in the Catholic church to eating meat on Friday, only during lent.

NK

MelR-- I think the racket is all about power. But of course once the DC politicians have the power over healthcare financing and medical practices, it becomes a zero sum game, then everyone-- even Dana-- will have to go hat in hand to the Feds to get their piece of the medical care pie. Of course the super rich -- Friends of Barry-- will go to switzerland, or Havana, or wherever for free market healthcare. The rest of us peons stand in line and take a number.

Danube of Thought

"...providing birth control more than pays for itself in reduced need for much-more-expensive maternity services"

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that that's true. Now: can anyone spot any other issues that are implicated, beyond cost? (Of course, if we really wanted to save money we could shoot expectant mothers.)

Benjamin Franklin

"The rest of us peons stand in line and take a number."

Have you used medical benefits, recently?

Jack is Back!

Jane,

That's weird. If go to twitter and follow Steve Hollander (Steve Holland1) there are no tweets? Ask him if he is tweeting for Reuters or himself.

Jim Ryan

Cap'n I don't see when Palin's speaking. Is that today? Anyone know how/when I can see her speech on the Web? Thanks in advance.

jimmyk

the State Department effectively blackmailed Kenya through foreign aid, and a concurrent public relations effort worth 12 million, to explicitly incorporate abortion into their constitution.

Wow, if the dots could be connected that should be a huge scandal, invoking Sanger and the eugenicists.

narciso

She has always delivered, Captain, whether Minneapolis, Evansville, Nashville, New Orleans, et al. But I imagine she can't but notice, how the focus has been off the main target, which is the Obama administration
manifold injuries to our economy and our world standing,

Appalled

BF:

What do you think you are proving with the reference to the study? The study you cite relates to current state of play with respect to healthcare, not the anticipated effect of Obamacare on it.

narciso

Tomorrow on her birthday, jim, to close out the event,

Ignatz

--Ig;

The Doctrine says that original sin was, yikes! SEX.--

Citation please.

Laura

Jim, 4:30 pm tomorrow

Captain Hate

Sorry I mistook the timing. I trust she'll hit all those points, narc.

upyernoz

actually covering birth control doesn't cost very much to insurance companies and it saves money in the long run (encouraging birth control reduces maternity costs and expensive dependents). that's why most plans already cover it. so in the sense, it is basically free to "force" insurance companies to provide coverage for birth control. they want to cover it anyway, because they view it as a money saver.

Laura

Jim LUN for livestream

bgates

To paraphrase my favorite comment at Althouse, this ducks the larger issue that birth control pills require a prescription, and many pharmacies require the presentation of photo ID.

And as we all know, poor people are incapable of obtaining photo ID.

Clarice

Oh, bgates, How I love you!!!!!!!!!

Jack is Back!

THE STEVE JOBS FBI FILE: The One Thing We Learned about The CEO's Leadership.

But what we did learn from the file is that none of those faults kept people from recommending him for the job. What’s astonishing in the report is that each of the more than 35 people who were interviewed by the FBI—even those who “characterized Mr. Jobs as a deceptive individual” or “described his personal life as being lacking due to his narcissism or shallowness”—said they would recommend him for a government position that requires trust and confidence.

That’s either a telling statement about what people think of government appointees (even way back in 1991, when the file was compiled) or remarkable commentary about the duality of Jobs’ personality and the power it held over the people who knew him. The same person who called Jobs shallow and narcissistic said he had “far-reaching vision.” The very individual who said Jobs had a questionable moral character and feels bitter toward him admitted he is an honest and trustworthy person. And the person who said Jobs was deceptive and not completely forthright admitted he “possesses the qualities to assume a high-level political position.”

So, it is now acceptable to have a narcisstic, arrogant leader in the White House because he is so visionary. The prop room is going to get a lot of use this year.

narciso

this is was a blip, at the time, the figures were off;

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2010/jul/10071910

Benjamin Franklin

" The study you cite relates to current state of play with respect to healthcare, not the anticipated effect of Obamacare on it."

Well, if you know what's gonna happen, would you please forecast the Super Lotto numbers for tomorrow?

Captain Hate

Per Tammy Bruce, CPAC protestors are getting paid $60/day by the union they previously worked for.

daddy

An interesting local OT on Union Fraud:

A local Anchorage Union Organizer is being charged with 4 Felony counts for forging hundreds of cards from University Employees in an attempt to show that enough of those University employees favored the creation of a new University Workers Union. The corrupt Union Organizers Lawyer is facing 1 count of Official Misconduct for aiding and abetting the perp and trying to stop her from being prosecuted.

"Troopers claim that McRoberts had failed to file the petition as reported but claimed to have filed it February 9th. In order to cover and support her lie, she provided officials a copy with a forged date and a forged “ALRA Received” stamp on the document."

A whistleblowert "told Troopers while she was entering information from interest cards, McRoberts would occasionally come out of her office and hand her a small batch of additional interest cards. She told investigators she became suspicious when she noticed a large number of the cards were written in purple ink and had similar handwriting.

The next day the employee confronted McRoberts and she admitted the cards were fake and stated she only did so to inflate the numbers of employees appearing to want unionization and that “no one would really see the cards”. She kept a stack of the suspicious cards and showed them to the Troopers."

"When the ALRA decided to investigate these irregularities they took their evidence to Department of Law attorney Erin Pohland seeking prosecution.They also told Pohland they suspected McRoberts was behind the irregularities in the cards. What the ALRA did not know at the time is that Pohland and McRoberts were friends and that they often discussed McRobert’s labor organizing efforts and would strategize together. When the ALRA brought these irregularities to Pohland’s attention they also brought the labor manual that states when irregularities such as these are found that prosecution is warranted. In what appears to have been an effort to protect her close friend, Pohland recommended against further action against McRoberts or ASEA; instead, she made a recommendation to throw out a few of the interest cards and to accept many of the cards staff felt were fraudulent."

No mention of this on the ADN. What a surprise.


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