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February 10, 2012

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Jim Ryan

Thanks, Laura.

OT. Here's a preacher, marine and lawyer running against George Allen in the Senate primary here in Va: E. W. Jackson. His law degree is from Harvard, but no one's perfect.

Benjamin Franklin

Mark Kleiman's justification for government sterilizations - uh, "mandatory access to free birth control" - for the undesirable lower-class members of society (i.e. to save money, regardless of the moral, religious, or ethical dimension of the decision) is aces in my book. He was churlish to not give a shout-out to Margaret Sanger who came up with the idea first, though.

Saving money for the state by killing off the unproductive population not only makes sense, but is wholly consistent with the "lower the unemployment rate by driving all the workers out of the economy" strategy being pursued on the job front.

Porchlight

Re: the "accommodation":

Doesn't Obamacare mandate that 85% of all premiums must go to cover services provided?

How do the insurance companies manage to pay for contraception out of the 15% that must also cover their overhead?

NK

Appalled-- thanks for pointing that out. Dana's link was to a Deloitte study of the self-insurance market BEFORE Obamacare. UNDER Obamacare in order to stay "self-insured" and to avoid the mandates imposed on everyone else BY Obamacare, you need a discretionary WAIVER. Who got the waivers? Healtcare insurance companies (a disgrace) and unions and other friends of Barry (plain old political corruption). As MelR points out, this whole Obamacare POS is a powerplay to gain control over 17% (and growing) of GDP. And Dana if you don't like insurance company bureaucracy, wait until you see POTUS Santorum's HHS Health regulations. You'll have to say Hail Mary and the Rosary to get a colonoscopy.

narciso

I think Jobs referred to this condition, JiB, as his 'reality distortion field, not a lie, but an agreed upon narrative, ironically, Gateshad a better one when he swiped Apple's operating system away from him, while assuring
he did nothing of the kind,

Jane

that's him JIB, don't know what to tell you.

I started a new post at You Too about Mitt's speech so you may need to refresh.,

OWS has landed.

MarkO

I'm with DoT (shocking, I know--except sports). To win an argument one must frame the issues. The issue here is not free pills--they are already free. It is not accommodation. It is not even just the First Amendment.

Chubby

((There is no prohibition in the Catholic church to eating meat on Friday, only during lent.))


how did the rule originate?

Patrick Carroll

Given that bacon has medical applications - curing nosebleeds, for example - I wonder whether The Won will demand that mosques provide a healthcare bacon benefit?

Cecil Turner

Anyone have any actual data on contraception saving money overall? Reminds me of the various claims about preventive health care saving money (which turned out ot be false).

Benjamin Franklin


Ig;

Catholic websites dance around the issue, focusing on the concept of original sin without actually discussing what the 'act' was.

History gives some examples, if you have the stomach for it.

http://www.catholicarrogance.org/Catholic/RC_ChurchFathers.html

"St. Ambrose (339-397), Bishop of Milan and one of the four early "Doctors fo the Church", wrote treatises extolling virginity and demanding that people have as little sex as possible. At the time, priests were still allowed to marry and Ambrose demanded that they should give up sex. They had, according to him, to refrain from intercourse with their own wives. The rest of the population should be reminded that the purpose of sex was procreation. Having sex with one's pregnant wife was unacceptable. In fact, Ambrose called for his congregation to 'either emulate the beasts or fear God'. Animals, he explained, are only 'animated by the urge to preserve their kind, not by the desire for sexual union. For, as soon as they perceive that the womb is gravid, they cease to indulge in sexual intercourse.' If his audience was not convinced by the parallels to the animal kingdom, Ambrose exhorted them to 'Control your lust and look upon the hands of your Creator, who fashions a human being within the maternal body. If he be at work, will you profane the peaceful sanctuary of the maternal body with carnal desire?' He also considered it shameful for older people to have sex. "

NK

Porch-- easy answer to your question - premiums and taxes go UP wages go DOWN.

Dana-- Appalled is NOT predicting the future, self-insurers have been lining up for waivers since 2010, almost from the moment 'Bam signed the POS. They priced out Obamacare compliance and they know they can't self-insure UNDER Obamacare, so it's a waiver or state exchanges for their members. Obama handing out the waivers is a form of legal political corruption.

Patrick Carroll-- fantastic pork snark.

Barbara
More generic arguments about "liberty" provoke yawns at best and usually jeers from these folks....But the religious freedom argument is moving the needle.

I agree, Porch. No longer can the left say that opposition to Obama - and specifically Obamacare - is just an ultra right wing, Tea Party driven event. Catholics' views span the political spectrum, and whether they approve of Obama or not - or even whether they follow the Church's dictates on contraception - they can recognize an assault on their religious freedom.

Sebelius has given a face to the dangerous elements of Obamacare - the insidious intrusion of government into our personal lives by the dictate of regulation. Even if Obama retracts the regulation or edits it, it will not matter.

Benjamin Franklin

Didn't Danyoob predict obama would cave on birth control?

No wonder the resident pan-expert has a following....

Jack is Back!

Chubby,

A day of penance. Also, meat was picked because giving it up would be an "inconvience" and in poor countries is a delicacy.

Threadkiller

Cecil, I remember when anti-lock brakes were coming on to the scene. As the govt pushed to make them mandatory, a parade of statistics, that showed how many accidents were avoided by vehicles equipped with anti-lock brakes, seemed to show up out of nowhere.

I always wondered who calls their insurance carrier, or the police, and says "I was driving like shit, with my eyes half closed, ran a light, and nearly killed a bus load of orphans. Thank god for these anti-lock brakes".

How else to they gather numbers on accidents that never happened?

Jack is Back!

Jane,

He posts under Reuters not his own tweets. Got them.

Why don't you tweet instead of live blogging on You Too?

Ranger

www.catholicarrogance.org/

Ah, now there is an unbiased and academically rigorous site, I am sure. No bias or ax to grind there.

Threadkiller

...do they...

Benjamin Franklin

Cock-y Rangerfield. There's a bibliography. Do your own homework

Porchlight

Catholic websites dance around the issue, focusing on the concept of original sin without actually discussing what the 'act' was.

No, they don't.

And your quote doesn't mention original sin, so I don't know why you posted it.

Benjamin Franklin

"No, they don't."

'ketchup !'

NK

Dana-- 'catholicarrogance.org' is a 'catholic' website. Oi vey. Please stick to anarchy and capitalist hierarchy theory.

Barbara- I agree. Sebelius's regulation has shown voters the tyranny and anti-choice heart of Obamacare. Next is to show voters how Obamacare will raise out of pocket medical costs and increase taxes and depress wages.

Jane

It never occurred to me JIB and I'm not sure I remember my twitter cred. BTW Wayne LaPeirre speaking now.

Has anyone considered what it is that Obama is covering up with this birth control thing? Is it maybe the Calderone association? Or is it worse?

Porchlight

Even if Obama retracts the regulation or edits it, it will not matter.

Barbara,

Thanks. I don't see this accommodation as being good enough for the bishops, so maybe they'll come back and say no deal. But I'm wondering if the electoral damage is done regardless of the final outcome. What do you all think?

Jane

Wayne La Pierre: "The fact that Eric Holder hasn't been fired is a disgrace"

standing ovation

Jack is Back!

Here is the WH Press Release on accommodation.

Penultimate bullet: Its free!

No problemo - another gutsy call by WonderBoy.

Benjamin Franklin

"Dana-- 'catholicarrogance.org' is a 'catholic' website. Oi vey. Please stick to anarchy and capitalist hierarchy theory."

So ends the argument....well played.

TMLutas

Catholics do not have a doctrine about not eating meat. They have a discipline, imposed by diocese, as to what are appropriate measures for fasts. Fasting prior to Easter in my eparchy (eastern catholic diocese) is generally no meat, dairy, fish, or oils with occasional days off for dairy, fish, or oil (but not all three at once). I've managed to pull it off a few years and it's quite challenging. Most years I fail, get absolution, and get back to trying again.

Jane

okay JIB, I'm tweeting under "youtoocongress"

NK

Porch-- it's pretty apparent Dana doesn't actually read any of the materials he links to or even cuts and pastes. For Dana's sake, I really hope none of his students or their parents read JOM, they'll demand a tuition refund.

daddy

Just for info:

Yesterday the guy in charge of the Trans-Alaska Pipeline said on Talk Radio that our daily Pipeline flow was down to about 630,000 barrels a day and constantly decreasing.

Yesterday Insty posted a link showing that North Dakota produced 534884 barrels of oil per day in December 2011: "It was over 190,000 barrels of oil per day more than the beginning of the 2011."

Walter Sobchak

In my city, there is a Catholic hospital system with three large hospitals. They must have thousands of employees. With that many employees, the employer does not buy health insurance from an insurance company. They set up a self insured trust, that will be administered by an insurance company, but which is not an insurance company, it is a employee benefit plan under ERISA, the federal employee benefit plan law.

In that situation, what will happen under the administration's so called comprimise plan?

Ranger

Ah yes Dana, because if it has a bibliography is must be accurate in every detail of its argument. You know there is a value to showing respect to those you disagree with and being object in your presentation. Excuse me if I take the site name as an indication that the author engages in "thesis driven research."

Would you accept the same level of argumentation from your own students as you engage in here? (Ok, bad question, as you probably do accept the same level of argumentation from your students, as long as it is takes a leftist tac).

BTW, I'll just state again, for the record, I've never posted on this blog under any other handle.

Porchlight

So ends the argument....well played.

Sorry you lost. Still waiting for that citation.

NK

TMLutas-- you're a better Lenten man than I. Lent starts February 22nd this year I believe. Dana can you help us out with the Lenten Calendar?

centralcal

Jane is tweeting now, I believe, for those interested. (YouTooCongress is her twitter name)

Porchlight

Heh, NK.

narciso

Well in this offering he references the discredited Lancet piece, the misleading
IIPA study, and the work of Chalmers Johnson,
along with the value of world opinion,

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/dward/bushvictory.html

Jim Ryan

I think original sin was to decide to do whatever we wanted, regardless of God's will, rather than unreflectively doing what God said to do. But it's been so long ago now that I can't clearly recall.

NK

WalterS-- under Obamacare the self-insureds have to comply with all employer insurance mandates, UNLESS they have a waiver. I don't believe ANY Catholic hospital system has a waiver from Obamacare. So your Catholic hospital system has to comply with Obamacare rules. That is the issue being debated now. Obama's compromise? I don't know that the public has seen that yet today.

centralcal

markknoller Mark Knoller
NY Archbishop Timothy Dolan calls Pres Obama's revised contraceptive services plan "a first step in the right direction."

Captain Hate

Lent starts right after you start seeing the McDonald's filet of fish commercials with the singing bass.

narciso

He doesn't even follow his own syllabi's guidelines,


http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/dward/classes/Ampol/AP11.html

Captain Hate

Nice cave job by Dolan.

NK

CaptH-- ok got it, thanks.

NK

CC-- thanks for the Dolan quote. The Bishops and catholic employers will get what they want-- another 1 million employees exempted from Obamacare. So let's see, insurance company employees, Cities, states, churches -- millions of employees exempt from Obamacare. What abou the rest of us?

Clarice

I don't know CH--"A first step" doesn't sound like all's well to me.

centralcal

He's not caving, Captain.

markknoller Mark Knoller
As Pres of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, Cardinal-designate Dolan says “we reserve judgment on the details until we have them."

daddy

Way behind, but just heard a clip of the President speaking this morning He said "The Insurance companies will be required to reach out and offer..."

This was a very smooth euphemism for "by my mandate the Insurance Companies must give for free" by our Dictator in Chief.

Benjamin Franklin

"Ah yes Dana, because if it has a bibliography is must be accurate in every detail of its argument"

While you fail to vett the cites and posit your disagreement, I will say I admire your lazy fact-checking.

Fear is a mind-killer.

Barbara
But I'm wondering if the electoral damage is done regardless of the final outcome.

Porch,

I agree. The damage has been done. It will be up to the Republican candidate(s) to determine how widespread that damage is.

Those liberal senators who are now urging Obama to change or drop the regulation are such hypocrites. They were right there with Obama when the law was passed, and they knew just what they were doing.

Religious freedom is just the beginning. Personal freedom is what they are after. As Congressman Dingle from Michigan said during the discussion on Obamacare, "We need to control the people..." (LUN). This is just the first obvious assault.

Captain Hate

I dunno guys; it was billed as a "compromise" and it doesn't sound like that at all. More like misdirection.

henry

My impression on self- insurance is that it becomes illegal in 2014 short a waiver, certain "grandfathered" plans escape these mandates until then provided you don't change contributions / company's / deductibles . That means as a self insured plan sponsor you eat all cost increases or eat the massive cost increase of switching to a conventional insurance plan. If I'm wrong, I hope JOM is not blocked at club fed.

centralcal

Remember, Captain, Dolan was duped once before. He is being cautious this go around, I think.

Chubby

ty JIB

Porchlight

The Bishops and catholic employers will get what they want-- another 1 million employees exempted from Obamacare.

That's not how I'm reading it, NK. The "compromise," which is itself a joke, does not exempt them from Obamacare. No waiver has been granted. And Dolan has not said he's on board.

Captain Hate

cc, if I'd been duped before I'd be a lot more than cautious; I'd be extremely distrustful. Although obviously I don't have the skill set to rise to a very high level within a church hierarchy; or any large organization for that matter.

rse

Well Melinda, that purchase certainly sounds like our favorite business model.

This morning's meeting really has me angry about the waivers under NCLB. Ga's legislature passed a very alarming statute last year and failed to publicize it to avoid making voters angry. That was then the basis for Ga's waiver.

Going to a votech for all model for high school is not going to be an economic winner. And Coke, IBM, and Shaw are not growth businesses.

Dave (in MA)

"Kim Jong Un Dead"

"Un Dead"? OMG it's the start of the Zombie Apocalypse.

Barbara
I think original sin was to decide to do whatever we wanted, regardless of God's will, rather than unreflectively doing what God said to do.

You're right, Jim. Adam and Eve were free to enjoy life and all the wonders and pleasures of Paradise save one thing - they were not to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree. In their pride and foolishness they defied God's law and were driven out of Paradise. That was the original sin.

All that stuff about "concupiscence" and sex being the original sin was added later by a bunch of frustrated Church leaders. After all, what did they think Adam and Eve did all day long running around Paradise in the altogether?

Appalled

What folks are losing track of is, in the case of a hospital or medical system, what a "self-insured" plan does. In that specific case, that kind of program simply provides "you can get free covered services at our hospital or in our system".

I'm trying to envision how that is going to work under the President's "compromise". The self-insured Catholic hospital is not going to be doing either contraception or abortions. So how will the "free" insurance resolve the dilemma for the Catholic hospitals?

I think I am with NK here -- the only way they'll be able to do this is through a massive waiver.

daddy

Clarice, Janet, OL...

Looks like you guys are ineligible to run for President:

“I am the only candidate in this race, Republican or Democrat, who has never worked a day in Washington,” Romney said, according to prepared remarks."

But since my paper-route as an 11 year old was in Arlington I think I'm still good to go.

Ranger

Fear is a mind-killer.

No fear on my part, simply pointing out that there is an issue in presenting a site like 'catholicarrogance.org' as an unbiased source of information. I know having tenure means you can phone it in at work, but please do try to show that having a PhD means something these days.

Porchlight

Barbara is correct again on original sin.

Appalled, a waiver may be the final outcome, but it certainly isn't on the table now, and there's no guarantee it will be. I do agree with you that it seems to be the only logical way out and I would share NK's frustration if the whole thing ended with a waiver.

If they did get a waiver, though, that would be seen by the left as Obama's biggest spelunking expedition to date. The tiny violin is warming up.

NK

Porch-- I was being facetious, 'Bam would never grant a waiver to the Catholic Church and its agencies.

Barbara-- of course you're right, 'Original Sin' is understood simply by reading Genesis. The theological complexities arise on the inheritence of Adam's sin. That was resolved about 1,000 years ago; I think even Martin Luther was on board with that. But I'm no theologian. Please don't take Dana's faux theology seriously.

daddy

Chinese Twitter Says Kim Jong-Un Was Assassinated This Morning In Beijing.

"Kids, put down your plate of grass soup and practice crying again."

"Aww, do we have to Mom? We just did that all last month.''

"Yeah, you have to, and make it look even realer this time. Daddy's in prison for failing to make his tears sufficiently flow."

Appalled

NK --

Then the compromise isn't one, because of the way hospitals tend to self-insure. I'm sure the bishops will be informed of this before too long.

NK

Appalled-- no waiver for Catholic employers, never will happen, I doubt they could qualify under the statute. I really was being facetious. But you're not taking 'Bam seriously are you? His 'compromise' will be some kind unGodly (heh) bogus nonsense to make the Bishops look judgmental and insensitive. It's all about the election for 'Bam; the good of the nation and Americans means nothing to him.

Clarice

Jane's last tweet:YouTooCongress JTW
1000 OWS protesters on the way

sbw

"Kim Jong Un Dead"

Does this mean what it meant for Franco?

Jane

Clarice,

What's the deal with Kim Un assassinated. I'm breaking the news around here.

Just learned the police have intervened with OWS protesters.

daddy

I know Clarice has a cat.

How about the rest of you nut-cases?

"Could tiny organisms carried by house cats be creeping into our brains, causing everything from car wrecks to schizophrenia?"

rse

melinda & henry-

LUN is especially for you.

Oh and I got to listen to how we are setting up public/private partnerships to implement the votech vision.

NK

TomM-- congrats on the shout out from Mickey Kaus!

Daddy, thanks for the link.
BTW-- I lived in Arlington Va 1979-1982.

Porchlight

Jane, so far it seems confined to Twitter.

lol:

@James_RobbinsJames S. Robbins @amirightfolks Hey if you can't trust Chinese Twitter who can you trust??
jimmyk

So the MSM is going to spin this as Obama the great compromiser, the fount of flexibility, and any resistance will be of course an unwillingness to compromise. At the risk of wearing out my distasteful metaphor, he proposed daily beatings, but now he's going to compromise by only smacking us around five days a week instead of seven. Oh, thank you!

daddy

To prove my 03:17 point, look at this coincidence just posted at the BBC:

Just published James Joyce children's book sparks feud---The Cats of Copenhagen.

Danube of Thought

No one else is reporting an assassination.

Clarice

Jane, later reports suggest he may be on the run and not assassinated or /and that there's a coup taking place in North Korea.

The original report said he was shot at the NK embassy in Beijing and his bodyguards shot the assassin. Chinese reports are that there are a large number of cars now at the Embassy.

NK

JimmyK-- now you got it!

Barbara
Please don't take Dana's faux theology seriously.

Oh, I don't. I'm a Catholic and attended Catholic schools, so I am familiar with the evolution of the Church's teachings on the subject of original sin as well as the views of Martin Luther and John Calvin on the matter.

I suppose our professorial friend was attempting to portray the Catholic Church's views on sex as outmoded and the basis for their opposition to the Obama regulation. He really should rely on better sources of information when making his arguments.

Benjamin Franklin

" I think even Martin Luther was on board with that."

NK's 'Papal' bull......lol

Clarice

forbes has it, National Post, several others DoT, but they all link back to an avalanche of tweets from China

NK

1. OK great, Kim is being shot at; who has their finger on the NorK nukes button?;
2. If this becomes a major story, unless you all refer to them as NorKs I will have to change my handle here.

Ignatz

--Ig;

Catholic websites dance around the issue, focusing on the concept of original sin without actually discussing what the 'act' was.--

Ben,
It's irrelevant what any individuals down through the ages may or may not have believed.
The Doctrine, as you put it, of the Catholic or any church that I'm aware of, is not what you said it is. They "dance around it" because the bible doesn't specify what the particular 'act' was by which they demonstrated their disobedience. No one knows and no church that I'm aware of holds as doctrine that it does.

NK

I really think BF today is one of dana's teaching assistants....

Chubby

((. The theological complexities arise on the inheritence of Adam's sin.))

I don't know how it was resolved scholastically or theologically, but I would say that human mortality is the proof of the pudding. Twas sin that brought death into the world.

The valley of the shadow of death is mortality, as I understand it, and can only be ameliorated through Christ, and living our lives as he exhorted us to do.

henry

RSE, good grief. Our favorite tech giant snags more government money.

I had the "pleasure" of working with a public / private partnership in manufacturing extension (NIST + DoD + state money, earmarked to the University and local community college). Straight vouchers to intended beneficiaries would cost less and deliver better results in every instance. I consider my tuition and stipend to be a partial return on taxes expropriated prior to my return to academia, and am delighted to be in the private sector since then.

NK

Chubby-- wow, now you're really getting theological. Original Sin = Mortality. That's kind of a given, the question was why do all men and women share in the shame of Adam's disobedience during their mortal lives. A real faith debate their, but resolved in a rational way by the Church. Yes Dana, faith and reason are almost always compatible.

NK

their = there

Ignatz

--All that stuff about "concupiscence" and sex being the original sin was added later by a bunch of frustrated Church leaders.--

Concupiscence can be sexual lust but as it is usually used by the Catholics, or Protestants for that matter, it is the general state of unhealthy lust for all worldly pleasures.
There have been some very odd ducks in all sects of Christianity but we shouldn't confuse them with church doctrine.

Benjamin Franklin

"It's irrelevant what any individuals down through the ages may or may not have believed"

Holy Moly. Is that your refutation? These doctrines were created by church leaders and 'Saints'. Are you disputing the authority of the Vatican in Canon Law?

jimmyk

JimmyK-- now you got it!

Now? I've been screaming this in various squaredance-like ways for the last three days!

(I realize maybe you didn't mean now=finally.)

Benjamin Franklin

You guys would argue the wetness of water.

NK

Ig-- you're killing me because Christian theology is a wide and glorious field of study. The unhealthy lust for temporal pleasure led Adam and Eve to succumb to Satan's lies and disobey God. How that is transmitted to the rest of us was a fascinating theological debate, and I believed resolved rationally by the Church.

NK

JimmyK- absolutely no offense meant. Just saying you're spot on as usual.

Although Dana says I would debate the wetness of water. BTW Dana -- water? in which state? solid, gaseous or liquid?

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