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February 25, 2012

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Gmax

Nope counselor. Lynching require the rage of a mob, not willing to allow a tribunal to exact justice.

jimmyk

Which of course is no reason not to grant the permits today, just as it was no reason not to grant them twenty years ago.

Yep--most proposed solutions to the SS/Medicare problems kick in 10 or 20 years from now.

It also isn't true, though: Anything that increases supply 20 years from now will roll back and have an impact on prices today.

Danube of Thought

Wiki:

In 1998, Shawn Allen Berry, Lawrence Russel Brewer, and ex-convict John William King murdered James Byrd, Jr. in Jasper, Texas. Byrd was a 49-year-old father of three, who had accepted an early-morning ride home with the three men. They attacked him and dragged him to his death behind their truck.[50] The three men dumped their victim's mutilated remains in the town's segregated African-American cemetery and then went to a barbecue.[

Captain Hate

And since it happened less than forty years ago doesn't that strengthen Jane's argument not weaken it?

No, if it was more than 40 years ago that would strengthen Jane's position. Forty years ago there were known gay bars in Georgetown and Provincetown had the same identity as it does today. That's not to say that there wasn't a professional reason in most employment areas to stay in the closet, which nobody has argued against here afaik.

Jane should stop equating being against gay marriage to hating gays. Most, if not all, of us have made our points clear on that.

Gmax

I remember fat people being maltreated. That is far from being "lynched" with all of nasty connotations.

jimmyk

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the concept of a child of Holocaust survivors being anti-Israel. How can you hate your parents that much?

CH, a lot of children of survivors had seriously deficient parenting and did not come through childhood in a good place. Many have done fine, of course. Depends how damaged the parents were. Of course, there's no formula.

Danube of Thought

lynching

present participle of lynch

Verb:
(of a mob) Kill (someone), esp. by hanging, for an alleged offense with or without a legal trial.

(No mention of an unwillingness to allow a tribunal to exact justice. Emmett Till, like James Byrd, was lynched for being black. Sheppard's offense was being gay.)

Ignatz

--No a lynching requires a mob of citizens, not one or two acting surreptiously. Its mob justice, not just henious murder.--

Technically true but the term "lynching" has assumed a modern definition of any killing of some disfavored group because of their belonging to that group.

Ignatz

Sorry, should have said 'any killing of a member of a disfavored group'

boris

"lynching" has assumed a modern definition

That would make it an unsuitable term to use in debate. I'd call it a form of base stealing.

Captain Hate

Thanks jimmyk; Clarice made that point too in her further discussion of the case so it made more sense at that point.

Danube of Thought

I remember lots of places where openly gay people congregated forty years ago. But still, gay men were much more likely to get roughed up and harassed by straights than they are today.

MarkO

I lived in SFO in the late 1970's and my wife's uncle and longtime companion were friends of mine. While I'm not certain that there was still real physical danger for them on the street, there was economic, financial and status danger in being gay. Their co-workers had no idea about their relationship and they were afraid to disclose it.

Those were they early days of gay pride, when a line formed for a movie would include two guys kissing and flaunting it. Harvey Milk was killed (thus giving us Dianne Feinstein)while I lived there. Those were interesting times.

But, to say there was no danger in being gay 40 years ago is to admit a lack of percipient knowledge on the subject. Or, to define danger differently.

Danube of Thought

Wouldn't it be nice to set aside a day for the public burning of Korans across the country?

hit and run

I would have preferred a Traditional Saturday Morning Open Thread.

But then TM does have an openly stated "goal of leaving no dead horse behind, unbeaten" so I suppose this thread is in furtherance of that.

Ignatz

No, if it was more than 40 years ago that would strengthen Jane's position.--

Jane's point was that the treatment of gays has improved over time (which seems undeniable) and picked 40 years as her point of departure to demonstrate how recent that poor treatment was. If they were still more badly treated 20 years ago than today that hardly disproves her point but would seem to strengthen it.

--Jane should stop equating being against gay marriage to hating gays.--

I agree, but am not sure equating them with serial killers is the best way to convince her to stop doing so.

Captain Hate

Emmett Till, like James Byrd, was lynched for being black.

Wrong. Emmett Till was lynched for being a black person who whistled suggestively at a married white woman in her store. It doesn't make it right but it's not like he was just randomly selected as somebody minding his own business.

AliceH

40 years ago, something like 35 states had laws on the books making "gay sex" illegal. Enforcement and specifics varied, but this is just one aspect of context explaining why security clearances were not given to suspected or known homosexuals. They were not only vulnerable to social ostracism, but arrest, which meant in practice they were considered high risk for trading confidential information to avoid threats of exposure.

boris

"gay men were much more likely to get roughed up"

So as society inproves does it really make sense to use the past left behind as a bludgeon for guilt tripping those less "progressive" in bending the arc toward our brave new world?

Ignatz

--That would make it an unsuitable term to use in debate.--

Like "base stealing"?

bgates

Daytona 500 tomorrow. The 300 is today and Danica Patrick has the pole.

All-Star weekend. Went downtown last night and saw a lot of women who could be on the pole.

Ignatz

--It doesn't make it right but it's not like he was just randomly selected as somebody minding his own business.--

The random selection of a victim doesn't fit Gmax's or the historical definition of "lynching" which is usefully explained in that link at 11:56, so you appear to be stealing a base too, CH.

Ben Franklin

"but it's not like he was just randomly selected as somebody minding his own business."

Jaysus H. Christ, on rubber crutches....

Ignatz

--All-Star weekend. Went downtown last night and saw a lot of women who could be on the pole.--

Finally a useful subject for discussion on a Saturday morning.
Any pics?

boris

"If they were still more badly treated 20 years ago than today that hardly disproves her point but would seem to strengthen it."

The Shephard case is not such a great example of how things have improved in recent years (1998) is it.

Captain Hate

Jane's point was that the treatment of gays has improved over time (which seems undeniable) and picked 40 years as her point of departure to demonstrate how recent that poor treatment was.

Ok I get this point. I thought it was being used as a term of how long they'd endured discrimination but I concede that you're correct on this.

I agree, but am not sure equating them with serial killers is the best way to convince her to stop doing so.

I don't care; I was just restating her "just like you" argument.

Danube of Thought

If Till were white he would not have been lynched. I would call that being lynched for being black. He had committed no offense against the law.

AliceH

This sounds intriguing:

Now you can take [Hillsdale College's] course on the U.S. Constitution as well, via Constitution 101, an online 10-week course... (via The Corner)

LUN is link to registration. No charge to take the course, but you must register and they do ask that you consider making a donation.

Now I've got to return to Data Entry For Democracy (aka entering petition data for Verify the Vote).

henry

No pics. I went south of the border for a critter feast last night. Morel & jalapeño cheese dip, duck rolls, venison sausage, elk in morel sauce ... Due to potables from mason jars, I don't recall any recipes ( or driving home).

boris

"I would call that being lynched for being black."

I see ... so Theo van Gogh was lynched for being an infidel then.

pagar

JiB, Thanks for the info on the Library Thing scanner, you saved me $15 plus shipping.

Captain Hate

If Till were white he would not have been lynched.

How do you know that? I'm pretty sure there are cases of white people passing through a small town being killed by small groups of people.

MarkO

VA Tech @ Duke. Don't see the girls, but I can only get the game on ESPN3.com. Go ahead. Ridicule me.

hit and run

henry:
Due to potables from mason jars

You might want to sit down for this,as shocking as it may be. I love mason jar potables.

Janet

Conservative Treehouse posted this as the new Ron Paul banner. (too big to post)
Loved the "shriek incoherently" part! Hah!

henry

Hit, I was more shocked at the high quality of the potables. you could strip paint with the varieties where I grew up. The juice last night was smooooth.

Danube of Thought

How do you know that?

Gimme a break.

... so Theo van Gogh was lynched for being an infidel then

Unquestionably.

narciso

I know some believed she would show some common sense, but the brainslug is just too deeply
embedded;


http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9T4G8MG0&show_article=1

Danube of Thought

Hit, check your e-mail.

MarkO


Krauthammer explained that it is not the case in this country when other religions are attacked.

“The reason we’re apologizing is not because of politeness or showing respect,” Krauthammer replied. “A single apology would have done that. It’s the fear of violence. People don’t object if Mormons are mocked on Broadway, if Christian crucifixes are put in bottles of urine and displayed in a museum because the violence isn’t a factor. People are afraid. You do a cartoon of Muhammad and you get beheaded or shot. It’s a matter of fear. It’s not respect. One apology is correct. It shouldn’t have been done. Absolutely all of this stuff is cravenous.”
http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/25/krauthammer-u-s-apology-for-koran-burning-embarrassing-groveling/#ixzz1nPuYMCUu

Captain Hate

the brainslug is just too deeply
embedded

If that's the type of answer Muffer is giving in Tunisia then I guess our entire ME policy is officially in the toilet.

Gmax

I went for a walk and this thread kept running through my head. I am not certain that even Nazi Germany qualifies as mob rule "lynching" but they are uncomfortably close being there had to be lots of people who knew exactly what was going on and did nothing and kept silent.

No the only places I can think of on Earth today that a true lynching of a gay with the active support and approval of the general public that could occur, would be areas controlled by the Taliban in Afghanistan or Pakistan, Iran and the euphemistically referred to "palestine." Gays have been recently to mudered in full daylight with full approval in both Iran and areas of Pashtun majorities. I can be sure about the Palestinians, but the image of them cheering the 911 holocaust makes me believe that they would not miss an opportunity if it presented itself.

In the 1970s, I traveled to Key West on school breaks several times. There were open displays of homosexuals in public and several bars which catered to the behavior. I never saw anyone lay a hand on a gay in three separate visits, which was damn close to 40 years ago.

sbw

Basically, I like to prune away persiflage to get to core issues.

The problem on many JOM threads that deal with sexuality is that red herrings in the form of dogmatic religion are regularly and repeatedly drawn across the conversational trail to obscure core issues.

Nobody is ever going to convince me through their religious convictions what sensible public policy ought to be. Public policy needs to be compelling to people who don't believe what you believe.

Anyway, it appears that government involvement in sexuality more often than not creates more problems than it solves.

daddy

Just a hypothetical.

If a Siamese twin (attached to his other half) murders a third party, would the perp be immune from punishment due to the attached twin being innocent?

I would think so.

jimmyk

The other point about apologies is that they have no impact on the rioters or grievance-mongers. If anything, as a sign of weakness, they provoke further violence. Completely counter-productive.

Gmax

can NOT be sure.

sbw

Daddy, the problem with siamese twins in that case would be double jeopardy. The poor individual would be tried twice for the same crime.

Clarice

So, if prisoners write in their korans, meet me outside when we're released tomorrow and we'll blow up the girl's school down the hill, that is not desecrating the koran? If it is we should have said the korans we were disposing of had already been desecrated and we believed in all sincerity this was the best way to dal with them.

Rick Ballard

"Anything that increases supply 20 years from now will roll back and have an impact on prices today."

jimmyk,

There's a 'free market' predicate underlying the assertion and I don't believe that it is applicable. The Russian-OPEC cartel is functioning better than it ever has in the past. Russia is in serious trouble should the price begin reflecting a supply/demand basis. So is Venezuela and Brazil (which will join the cartel when it fully absorbs the concept of 'lockout'). I've never seen a serious analysis as to the extent which EUtopia is supported by the wholly regressive imposition of taxes which have raised gas to the $8-8 level there but I'm sure that it is not negligible.

The 'ten year' canard is simply that, a canard. The five year cycle from discovery to production outlined in the cited article is much more typical.

I believe the President's lack of action should be construed as that of someone acting on behalf of the Russian-OPEC cartel (and EUtopia) to constrict supply in order to impose a regressive tax to provide the funds necessary for all those freebies he and other commie leaders loves to pass out.

Let's not forget that every $1 per barrel increase in the cost of oil in the US results in 35 cents flowing into the Treasury.

Mustang0302

If a Siamese twin (attached to his other half) murders a third party, would the perp be immune from punishment due to the attached twin being innocent?

Hate crime! Radical twinists ("Two heads are better than one!") lynching single-headed third parties! Get two ropes!

Gmax

President Clueless acting stupidly, again and again.

Pops

The REAL problem is that once the courts impose gay marriage, then the very definition of marriage can no longer exist. No court could ever limit marriage to two people regardless of their sexual orientations, etc. because no court will be able to provide a definition of a marriage that does not restrict marriage in the same way current marriage is restricted.
How could one argue that a state can't limit marriage to one man and one women, but they do have a compelling interest to limit it to two people, not three, or five or twelve.

narciso

There in lies the problem, and Scalia pointed out in his dissent, in Lawrence'

Captain Hate

Putin would be in a world of hurt if the price of oil dropped, as would Chavez.

Ignatz

--Get two ropes!--

Couldn't they just lynch the guilty one?
But that raises the question of how they'd know which one it was.
Just as important could conjoined twins be compelled to testify against each other or would they enjoy a privilege such as spouses do?

Pops

I think it would be perfectly fitting today for Christians to place Korans in jars of urine and place the before the Capitol and White House.

It was the Federal Government that funded the assault on peoples religions and then told them to shut up and sit down if you don't like your tax dollars going to denigrating Christianity.

Now the government asks us all to not act like it has done, but to apologize for acting like they have done repeatedly.

Why should we not today allow the feds to reap what they sowed??

Captain Hate

Gimme a break.

If I said he was lynched by the Republican Establishment, would you come up with a more convincing argument?

Pops

So waht happens when an American citizen marries all illegal aliens on one day; thus making them all legal?

What court would deny her, her right to marry the people she loves?

On what basis would they deny her right to marry?

Ignatz

--The problem on many JOM threads that deal with sexuality is that red herrings in the form of dogmatic religion are regularly and repeatedly drawn across the conversational trail to obscure core issues.--

sbw,
I've been religiously working to overcome my infernal dogmatism by postings of the Fibonacci variety. I hope I've made some progress.
Incidentally I don't know about anyone else but Fibonacci is one of those words I don't think I would ever get right without spellcheck.

Gmax

Moving on to the subject of the Bishops caving, well we have an early exhibit to the contrary. Seems this townhall meeting was well publicized on Catholic radio in the area and priests urged their constituents to attend.

Rep. Kathy Hochul expected to get some questions on the economy and on gas prices when she met with constituents in New York’s 26th Congressional district last night. Instead, the freshman Democrat got booed by a crowded room over her support for the HHS mandate on contraception and abortifacients, and spent the evening getting an earful from angry voters

Hochul was a mistake due to a dreadful opponent, and in this R + 6 district she will have to get a real job next year. Too bad really.

Mustang0302

If we just lynched the guilty one, the twinists would claim that as a hate crime against their kind.

Hate crime, racism, lynching...all meaningless terms drained of their venom by overuse and deliberate misapplication by professional victims and other hucksters.

(About hanging only one of the twins...the other one's guilty too - you know how those guys are, they conspire about everything!)

Ignatz

No money to the RNC until Pops is at the helm.

Pops

It has long been the policy of this government that Bibles sent to Musli countries are confiscated and burned.

Obama says only the Koran should not be burned and he profusely apologizes for doing so.....
------------------------------------

May 20, 2009

Military personnel threw away, and ultimately burned, confiscated Bibles that were printed in the two most common Afghan languages.

Danube of Thought

I was in Key West in 1959 and there were loads of flamboyant gays around. I don't think anyone disputes that for over fifty years there have been places where gays could congregate without fear of harrassment. At the same time, when they weren't in those enclaves they were far more likely to be subject to abuse than they are today.

Mustang0302

I think it would be perfectly fitting today for Christians to place Korans in jars of urine and place the before the Capitol and White House.

Art!

Next, a velvet portrait of dogs playing poker for bacon-flavored chips, with cards made from pages ripped from korans!

Gmax

Yeah even with submarine base full of sailors on shore leave, I did not see any abuse. Must have been a "navel" thing...

Cecil Turner

I think TC nailed it. The problem with a judicial cram down is not primarily the social engineering effect (especially when society is rapidly going that direction anyway); it's the contempt it engenders for the judiciary and the rule of law. Because (for example) if you can find a right to gay marriage in the Constitution, you can find anything in there.

Danube of Thought

Wiki:

"American gays and lesbians in the 1950s and 1960s faced a legal system more anti-homosexual than those of some Warsaw Pact countries. Early homophile groups in the U.S. sought to prove that gay people could be assimilated into society, and they favored non-confrontational education for homosexuals and heterosexuals alike. The last years of the 1960s, however, were very contentious, as many social movements were active, including the African American Civil Rights Movement, the Counterculture of the 1960s, and antiwar demonstrations. These influences, along with the liberal environment of Greenwich Village, served as catalysts for the Stonewall riots.

"Very few establishments welcomed openly gay people in the 1950s and 1960s. Those that did were often bars, although bar owners and managers were rarely gay. The Stonewall Inn, at the time, was owned by the Mafia. It catered to an assortment of patrons, but it was known to be popular with the poorest and most marginalized people in the gay community: drag queens, representatives of a newly self-aware transgender community, effeminate young men, hustlers, and homeless youth. Police raids on gay bars were routine in the 1960s, but officers quickly lost control of the situation at the Stonewall Inn, and attracted a crowd that was incited to riot. Tensions between New York City police and gay residents of Greenwich Village erupted into more protests the next evening, and again several nights later. Within weeks, Village residents quickly organized into activist groups to concentrate efforts on establishing places for gays and lesbians to be open about their sexual orientation without fear of being arrested."

Danube of Thought

A few years ago I read a fascinating book on the Fibonacci series; I think the title was "The Golden Mean" (or maybe Golden Ratio). Amazing stuff.

Captain Hate

American gays and lesbians in the 1950s and 1960s faced a legal system more anti-homosexual than those of some Warsaw Pact countries.

Because the workers paradise countries were just so wonderful.

narciso

Paul Carter's 'the Riots that sparked the Gay Revolution,' that's considered an objective
source, I have no doubt that life for gays in the 60s, was unpleasant, but that seems one
degree off from a Godwin violation,

Jack is Back!

I can remember as a member of my college football team hearing how a bunch of jocks would constantly joke about "rolling old queers" in the bars off campus. Never saw it happen as I was in ROTC and did everything I could to protect that status. But there were guys that were "loose in their shoes" that did frequent bars where the jocks hung out. Back in the 60's I have no memory of stand-alone gay bars so they went were they thought some action would be.

I also remember one time when I was in high school being approached by a guy who wanted to give me a b@*w job. And this was on a sidewalk downtown in broad daylight! Gays were around but well hidden and only the ones with obvious mental problems let their sexual preference be known before the Woodstock era which I think started it all - the total liberalization of our culture.

AliceH

Are we sharing personal anecdotes now? Here's mine.

I guess I went to Key West at the wrong time - the early 80s. Late at night, walking down some bar-lined street with two friends, accosted by louts shouting what sure sounded to me like homo-bashing insults, chased for blocks, hit in the back by a very large rock.. Pissed me off so much I turned around told them to just stop it, please (seriously - I said please). One of the yobs said "It's a girl!", and they all ran off.

While I spent the next several days wondering how they could not know I was a girl, one friend, who is heterosexual, was all freaked about them thinking he looked gay. The only one not traumatized was the other friend - who is gay.

There's a moral in there, but I've never been able to figure out what it is.

narciso

Wrong author, in the LUN, note the attack on Anita Bryant, following that French proverb,
or the very 'objective' take on the NYPD

Mustang0302

Because (for example) if you can find a right to gay marriage in the Constitution, you can find anything in there.

Well, I'm glad we're finally beginning to see the vaguest outlines and shadows of the emanations and penumbras of an individual right to keep and bear arms...

Naw, I must be seeing things. I live in CA.

narciso

No, the latter is a negative liberty, the former is a positive one, that government grants you,

daddy

I see that TIME Magazine has just come out with a story saying that we (the US Navy Seals) have a problem , because not enough US Navy Seals are black.

Can't get thru more than a sentence or 2 of the story. Just the concept speaks for itself.

Mustang0302

Racism!

Rick Ballard

"it's the contempt it engenders for the judiciary and the rule of law"

Cecil,

Would you think that having a tax cheat head up the tax collection agency engenders more or less contempt for the rule of law than having the wife of an impeached and disbarred perjurer and accused rapist waddling across the world stage representing the United States? How much responsibility for contempt for the judiciary and the rule of law should the whoring attorneys representing those filing false claims for disability share? Each of them is as great a thief as their client in the attempt to loot the Treasury. It would seem that hiring a thief to run Treasury isn't paying off in the manner expected any more than hiring wife of the impeached and disbarred perjurer has.

I wonder if we'll go through an Italian phase before hitting the Greek phase? IOW - tax fraud as sport rather than necessity.

narciso

Well yes, Rick, that probably does enter into it, at least at the margins, meanwhile the y did say, 'we had to pass it, to find what's in it' didn't they;

http://www.lucianne.com/thread/?artnum=667360

Captain Hate

Mark what are your guys doing letting the Chokies hang around? Are there any Paige Greenberg sightings?

Ignatz

--Because (for example) if you can find a right to gay marriage in the Constitution, you can find anything in there.--

I'm afraid that ship sailed a long time ago.
Could be argued it left port about the time of John Marshall, although it never really got out of the harbor and into open seas until FDR.

Pops

What is never explained by the left is that if being gay is is perfectly normal and brought about by evolution....

then why isn't discrimination against gays also a natural, evolutionary state that deserves just as much respect?

Perhaps their is good legitimate resons why evolution decided it was best to discriminate against some behaviors.

narciso

You see it all worked out, why were we concerned, sarc;

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=49758

pagar

"guess our entire ME policy is officially in the toilet."

If you think our foreign policy is a mess,
look at who controls our domestic policy.

LUN

Pops

It would have been much better for the Republicans to have argued that Obama is forcing mosques to pass out birth countrol to the women in the Islamic community because Obama wants fewer Muslims.

Imagine Pelosi and the rest of the left arguing with the Imams about Muslim women right to birth contron and abortion funded by the Mosque.

Frau Depremiert

I want to eat/drink what Clarice is having at 10:23. It's hard to keep positive. The Verify the Recall people gave initial instructions about evaluating the signatures. Now I was informed to accept even scribbles as valid. It's disheartening to feel it's by and large a useless exercise.

Cecil Turner

Would you think that having a tax cheat head up the tax collection agency engenders more or less contempt for the rule of law than having the wife of an impeached and disbarred perjurer . . .

All that's bad, and the response by lefties (e.g., "it's all about sex" and claims the right are hypocritical for pointing out sexual harassment, perjury, and obstruction of justice) is worse.

But the top court redefining the supreme law of the land for convenience's sake makes even the notion of a nation of laws untenable. Because if they can't be bothered to follow the law, who else will?

Chubby

((tang, got any musical recs for me?))

I think this is a pretty good resource Cap, has only been online a few weeks.

lun

narciso

Well that's the Murkowski play, where apparently the fact that the same family had held the seat for 30 years, was no reason to spell it right,

Gmax

Gallup shoots down new lefty talking, more women agree with religious leaders than Obama on HHS mandate:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/152963/Contraception-Debate-Divides-Americans-Including-Women.aspx

Get a load of the numbers for both Catholic women and independent women. Zero is playing with fire and gonna get torched...

Jane

Wouldn't it be nice to set aside a day for the public burning of Korans across the country?

I was thinking the same thing, just this morning.

Jack is Back!

Time is always doing its best to keep it classy, daddy.

And if the race qual doesn't work lets try women, gays and illegals:)

In fact, as long as Act of Valor is showing there will be more of this from the MFM. I mean who are these anti-hollywood people who have co-opted the SEAL story since we all know who the "gutsy" guys really are.

MarkO

No Paige. Cameron Indoor has lost its magic.

hit and run

DoT:
Hit, check your e-mail.

If you're still around, please check yours.......

daddy

" TIME Magazine has just come out with a story saying that we (the US Navy Seals) have a problem , because not enough US Navy Seals are black."

I blame Obama.

As CIC he should have insured that the Seal who put a bullet in Osama Bin Laden's skull was part White, part Black, part Cherokee, part Aborigine, part Hispanic, part Laplander, part Dravidian, part Chinese, part Arabic, and part Ashkenazi Jew. What an egregious failure on the part of our multiculti Commander in Chief. F'er shame!

Captain Hate

Well Mark, the Chokies blew their opportunity by coming up with a stupid isolation play on the last possession instead of running one of their usual offensive sets. Seth FTL

Gmax

Seals have to swim a pretty good distance and its well known that a pretty high percentage of blacks dont swim and are afraid of the water. Might that have anything to do with the stats? I would bet it does, but good luck on getting any journalist to ask the pertinent questions...

MarkO

Plumlee a better free throw shooter than Rivers? If Rivers makes both in regulation?

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