No Way Out - Or Is There?

On Saturday the NY Times presented a story on the contraception controversy that raised more questions than it answered.  However, we see the glimmer of a possible further accomodation by Team Obama that may resolve this puzzle.  Organizations that self-insure are subject to Federal, not state law; but the Federal law has not achieved its final finalization.  Wiggle room!

Back to the Times:

N.Y. Law on Contraceptives Already in Place, and Catholic Institutions Comply

By JOSEPH BERGER and THOMAS KAPLAN

Although Archbishop Timothy M. Dolan of New York has vociferously argued that a national requirement for religiously affiliated institutions to cover birth control in their insurance plans is immoral and unacceptable, some Roman Catholic organizations in his own backyard have for 10 years been grudgingly complying with a state law making them do precisely that.

Then why, one wonders, are Catholic leaders so wound up now about the Federal rule after suffering in silence for so long?  And why do only "some" organizations comply?

Some New York Catholic institutions — including the Archdiocese of New York, led by Archbishop Dolan, and the Diocese of Brooklyn — chose to self-insure rather than pay for contraception after New York State adopted a requirement in 2002 that any insurance policy with a prescription drug benefit provide coverage for birth control.

We hear about California:

One of the most contentious laws was approved in California in 1999; the measure effectively provided an exemption to churches but not to religiously affiliated hospitals, universities or social service organizations. Catholic Charities of Sacramento unsuccessfully challenged the law in court.

 “It was pretty much a useless exemption, because the large employers are not churches,” said Carol Hogan, a spokeswoman for the California Catholic Conference. She said many large Catholic institutions in California, like hospitals, have since elected to sidestep the law by insuring themselves.

Self-insurance is the escape hatch, but it may not work at the Federal level; this is from a fact sheet prepared by the office of the Governor of Massachusetts:

State jurisdiction

State insurance laws apply only to the "fully insured" market, which is regulated by the state Division of Insurance. If an organization elects to self-fund its employee benefits plan – i.e., pay health claims from its own resources rather than buy health insurance – that organization is not subject to Massachusetts state insurance laws and would not be required to provide any particular outpatient services.

Some large employers, including municipalities, corporations, hospitals and universities, have their own private agreements with insurers and are considered to be "self-insured." Pursuant to the federal Employee Retirement Insurance Security Act (ERISA), self-insured plans are regulated only by federal law, and would not be subject to Massachusetts health insurance laws. However, both fully insured and self-insured health plans will have to comply with the federally mandated benefits under the Affordable Care Act.

So a Federal rule could eliminate the escape hatch employed by many Catholic entities.  But what is the new Federal rule?  The latest protest from the bishops hints that the status of self-insured plans is still a bit of a jump ball:

Second, the President has announced some changes in how that mandate will be administered, which is still unclear in its details. As far as we can tell at this point, the change appears to have the following basic contours:

·It would still mandate that all insurers must include coverage for the objectionable services in all the policies they would write. At this point, it would appear that self-insuring religious employers, and religious insurance companies, are not exempt from this mandate.

Hmm.  One wonders whether a further compromise might be reached on the topic of the self-insured - perhaps they could be allowed the same escape hatch that has already been adopted in many states.  Smaller Catholic entities in the currently free states would be affected (as they have been in New York), but large entities would probably soldier on on a self-insured basis.

Certainly, the President's Immaculate Contraception fantasy - the insurance companies will provide it for free - makes no sense in the context of self-insurance.

Comments

[rse]

Oh matt. You have no idea.

Plus although the feds are actively pushing ed as a means of gaining widespread submission without it being apparent, too many state legislators are right there as well.

You just want to ask them what they think Re means. The identity of the interests entitled to access to the trough apparently.

[Captain Hate]

I lived in Delhi for a while and became wary of Indian hospitals.

How long ago? I don't think they currently have much of a negative stigma.

[Porchlight]

Jane,

I can't afford it, either, but am hoping my (conservative) dad will decide to give me an early Christmas present. :) Even if I don't go on the cruise, there's a chance I may be able to meet up with y'all in Ft. Lauderdale if there's time.

Or maybe my dad will want to go, too. He's always wanted to meet VDH, Steyn, Lileks etc. Lileks has actually been to my parents' house in MN, but it was for a function when my parents weren't there (they let local non-profits use it sometimes).

[Danube of Thought]

Hope he's right: Alan Dershowitz says Media Matters could single-handedly cost Obama re-eletion.

[Clarice]

That would work, AB.

[Janet]

Ya gotta wonder if Eugene Robinson of the WaPo got his "make fun of the Santorum's still born child" talking point from MM. Him & Colmes.

[Elliott]

Be quick or the medical tourism laws regs will be there ahead of you.

[Clarice]

Oh, no Elliott!!! Next mandated harvesting of organs from people my age they refuse to offer medical treatment to. Val Ja will own us all cradle to grave..

[Clarice]

Janet, Eugene Robinson is one twisted, nasty piece of work, I doubt he needs help.

[Neo]

The goal of the "Truffer Team" is to ensure that when Republicans attack President Obama’s record, grassroots supporters can take ownership of the campaign and deny the reality of the President Obama’s abysmal record,” said Deputy Campaign Propagandist David Brock of Media Migranges in a release.

[rse]

LUN is a more detailed writeup of the Duke story.

One of the reasons I discouraged Red from my alma mater is applicable to this story. I went to one of the evening receptions and the assistant admissions counselor was explicitly pointing out that students with a HH income below a specified amount would not have to pay to attend the college and for those students not to worry about the list of books read over the last year because "we are now counting anything between 2 covers".

I thought if that's true you are gutting academics. If it's not, you are misleading students about something fundamental to college. Neither interpretation was OK.

Later the school sent out a survey to students of color that said they felt inferior and the school wanted to do something to address this perception of the students of color. All I could think of is death spiral.

Plus new Pres testified before Congress recently how she wanted all students to be ready to "serve others" upon graduation. Colleges should not be undermining the value of the individual. That has been a tragic path in the past.

[(Another) Barbara]

How long ago? I don't think they currently have much of a negative stigma.

Oh decades ago, CH, so the charge may be entirely unfair. Nonetheless, the Indian standards for hygiene were so abysmal at that time it is hard for me to fathom they could have caught up, even in all the intervening years.

Once Clarice is put in charge, however, I have every confidence she'd get things shipshape for us.

[Janet]

And if that Ploughshare organization can pay NPR to do anti-nuke stories...can my church pay NPR to do a positive story on youth mission trips?

[Captain Hate]

In your defense, (A)B, the whole place is so damn hot it may as well be a giant petri dish. The quality of care by individual doctors is at least comparable to what you can expect in the US imo; at least that was the hope of the person from Amsterdam beside me on the flight who was trying to entice MDs to return with him to deal with the demographical nightmare.

[Clarice]

Now there's a thought, Janet.

AB I'm talking about special hospitals particularly designed for medical tourism BTW. I posted a link t one such outfit and their institutions are spotless and manned by highly trained physicians and surgeons.

[Clarice]

Don Surber argues why the President's blunder on birth control helps Santorum in Penn where he argues the election will come down to:
http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/archives/51403

[centralcal]

There are still some doctors in India? I thought they were all here in California!

[Captain Hate]

I'm sure there's a better way to deal with the AMT than this lunacy: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204795304577221092525228070.html?mod=djemalertNEWS

[narciso]

Speaking of nobrainers, but we knew that already;

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203646004577213552167078144.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop

[Melinda Romanoff]

Clarice-

Now you know what ValJar's definition of "Reparations" truly means.

[matt]

clarice;

We should start planning an IPO for a new corporation specializing in medical tourism.

If we place facilities in Grenada, the Caymans, and the safer parts of Mexico even the travel is tax deductible.We could offer the advanced German treatments, wonderful recuperation options, and family packages.

Wellness programs combined with the Scuba/hernia option or wind surfing and angioplasty. The possibilities are amazing.

[matt]

so narc;

That means that with a 40% Federal tax rate and fewer deductions we are back to an effective 45% rate. Combined with California's 11% max tax rate that kicks in at $49K/year, an 8% sales tax, and 2% property tax we would be at a 67% effective tax rate.

Socialism in all but name.

[maryrose]

Josh Mandel will defeat Sherrod Brown in November. I'm also predicting a really good showing for Rick Santorum on March 6th in Ohio's Super Tuesday election primary.

[Jack is Back!]

Clarice,

Matt's right. Keep it in the Carib or Costa Rica. I think Limbaugh has already put in motion this plan a long time back.

If you do India then you better have as many bathrooms on the plane as seats. They still don't have a competent and secure potable water system and Indian food in Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore is not the same as Gaylord's or Bombay Palace:)

If our people got sick and our infirmary on the jobsite couldn't treat them we flew them back to the UK. Now the Phillipines is another story but most of their good medico's practice here.

[MarkO]

I stopped supporting Duke, except basketball after the racist response to the LAX issue. Broadhead is still there. Whenever they send a solicitation I tell them I'll give when he is fired.

They seem not to miss me.

[Captain Hate]

Mark, I'm really surprised your school hasn't jettisoned Brodhead because I'd have to believe that alumni contributions have taken a dive under his reign. I know schools are loathe to admit they screwed up in selecting the top figurehead but at some point you have to cut your losses and do the right thing.

[Danube of Thought]

Seems to me you support them in football, too, the way you applauded after corrupt officiating handed them a victory over Navy.

This is wonderful: "The federal debt has increased by $4.47 trillion since President Barack Obama released his first federal budget on Feb. 26, 2009. That budget was entitled, 'A New Era of Responsibility.'"

[narciso]

The House of Conquistador, rules all, Captain,

[A Casual Observation]

This is nothing new. The healthcare industry has been getting lower and lower quality people for years.

In fact, nursing schools have been graduating mediocre nurses for the past 20 years. RNs with a masters degree today are equivalent to LPNs or nurses' aids 20 years ago, depending on the school that they attended.

What's scary is that a doctor told me that more patients in hospitals die as a consequence of the "smarminess", laziness, sloppiness, carelessness and incompetence of nurses than as a consequence of those patients' illnesses or their injuries, and another doctor affirmed what that other doctor told me. Telling lies to save face and to cover their asses after they screw-up is a way of life for all of today's nurses, and they all lie to cover for each other, also, even the good ones.

Never mind the sadistic nurses who abuse helpless and defenseless patients.

Everybody knows somebody who died in a hospital under mysterious circumstances. Well, it shouldn't be a mystery to you anymore.

[narciso]

Glenn Beck, the former Fox News Channel host, drew the ire of a wide spectrum of liberal groups while his program aired nationally. But according to several people who watched the process from the inside, it was Media Matters that orchestrated much of the opposition to Beck.
This passage has not been focused as much;

“We called it ‘fingerprint coverage,’” explains one former staffer, “where you know it was the result of your work.” As an example, he cites the left-wing group Color of Change, co-founded by the controversial former White House “green jobs” czar Van Jones, which received much of the credit for pressuring advertisers to drop their sponsorship of Beck’s show. But in fact, he says, Media Matters developed the campaign that cowed Beck’s sponsors

[Clarice]

On the rare occasions I've been in hospitals I have always checked myself out early regardless of the doctors' insistence that I should stay longer. They are dangerous places. (Did you know in the middle ages they were constructed of would and after a few years had become so pestilent they were simply burned down and new owns built?)

[Clarice]

Heh--"constructed of wood"

[Jane]

Tax exempt media matters preliminary enemies list:

This is getting very ugly.

[Extraneus]

The ugliest thing about it is that we don't have a similar outfit. Why shouldn't they play dirty? They're playing for keeps.

[Jane]

I think this Daily Caller expose is the reason Soros was all over the TV yesterday.

[matt]

Good places to get superbugs, Clarice.

I have looked at Air India on the Frankfurt run several times as they are much lower priced than just about anyone else.

Then I looked at the reviews. Certain airlines just don't get it and never will, which also extends to countries.

Having been to a number of 3rd world countries, India is still at the bottom of the list despite the cultural attractions. $500/night nominally 5 star Motel 6's, etc. Our engineers have refused en masse to work there without full rations.

[Captain Hate]

The only people that are surprising on that list are Peter Thiel (don't know why that idiot Brock is targeting the head of PayPal) and Bill O'Blowhard.

Tammy Bruce is referring to El JEFe's budget as him sending over a dirty diaper to Congress and just played a clip of Zsa Zsa Huffington (amazing that a Greek is talking about a budget) interviewing the head of the Congressional Black Caucus who called it "a nervous breakdown on paper".

[Jack is Back!]

I wonder when they'll add Clarice or Jane or Hit or Matt to that list.

Does anyone know if Brock owns a cat?

[(Another) Barbara]

On the rare occasions I've been in hospitals I have always checked myself out early regardless of the doctors' insistence that I should stay longer. They are dangerous places.

Yup. That's what the docs in our family always tell my husband and me: "Don't go unless blood is flowing from both ears and then get yourself out as soon as you can."

[A Casual Observation]

Both of those doctors told me, also, that, in their opinions, [at least] 50% of private duty nurses, nusrses in nursing homes, nurses in rehabilitation clinics [and] nurses in hospitals are unfit to be providing care for anyone. In fact, one of them suggested that, whenever one of our loved ones is in a hospital, we should arange to have members of our family take turns staying with our loved one and closely monitoring him or her 24 hours a day, just as a precaution to protect our loved one from the irresponsible behavior of nurses who don't provide proper or even adequate care for their patients. (Even the best hospitals are so desperate to staff their institutions with nurses that virtually any warm body will serve their purposes, and no, that is not a distortion or an exaggeration.)

[Sandy Daze]

At the Legal Insurrection article on Step there is a comment which sums very well Voldemort's strategic plan. This comment answers the question, imo, on why the administration is going to the mat on birth control. PLEASE read in its entirety, most strongly recommended:

stevewhitemd | February 13, 2012 at 9:39 am

. . . It’s about power. . . .

OMG~ABO,
Sandy

[A Casual Observation]

BTW, we live in one of the most affluent communities in the country, and what I said above holds true as much in hospitals here as it would hold true in hospitals in poverty-stricken ghettos. Perhaps more so here, because laid-back, subdued people here aren't as inclined to be activists, insisting on better care for patients, and thoroughly investigating mysterious deaths in medical facilities.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vnjagvet]

I am not so pessimistic. I have had all too much contact with hospitals in the past two years. Fortunately the two where I was hospitalized were well staffed on the floors I was on. That both of those hospitals had strong cardiology practices which demanded good nursing staff may have had something to do with it. On the east coast and midwest, there are world class hospitals in Boston, Cleveland, Rochester, MN, New York, Houston, Atlanta and Baltimore. If you have a serious condition that needs attention, the docs in my family tell me they are the best bet for good results.

Without the care I received, I would not be writing this.

[Rocco]

BS...Hospitals routinely short staff nurses for financial gain. Nurses who normally would care for 3-4 patients per shift are forced to double that nurse to patient ratio and there lies the problem. With the advancements made in medicine today compared to yesterday, nurses are far superior today.

[Danube of Thought]

I have quite frequent contact with the UCSD Medical Center, and I would give them the highest rating. (Sample size one.)

[A Casual Observation]

If you didn't know what to look for, Jim, you could have had gross negligence and gross incompetence going on all around you, and you wouldn't have even noticed. Consider yourself one of the lucky ones, who survived your stays in medical facilities, and count your blessings, instead of being foolishly or naively skeptical. You could have escaped death without realizing it, 'cause you weren't paying attention.

[daddy]

"Its almost like George Snuffleupagus got the memo first!"

I think everyone is correct, Stephy did have the memo.

Can anyone else think of any other questions during all the debates that had us scratching our heads "Why are they asking that?" that will soon pop up as the next Obama anti-Constitutional action Du Jour.

Something on Illegals maybe?

[A Casual Observation]

"With the advancements made in medicine today compared to yesterday, nurses are far superior today." - Rocco

You know that from personal experience over many years, eh? Or you read it somewhere? Or you just made it up?

[Clarice]

I stayed in immaculately clean hotels in India--I was in Delhi, Agra and all about Rajasthan.

As to hospitals, I think the idea of having someone with the patient at all times is a good one..if you can manage it.

[fdcol63]

I think some of the people behind Media Matters just need to "disappear" ... quietly. No muss, no fuss.

Word would get around real quick.

The 2nd Revolution needs to start with the MFM, academia, Hollyweird, unions and the Federal bureaucracy.

As long as they are lying, distorting the truth and brainwashing our kids, America will continue its slide to collapse.

[Captain Hate]

If you didn't know what to look for, Jim, you could have had gross negligence and gross incompetence going on all around you, and you wouldn't have even noticed. Consider yourself one of the lucky ones, who survived your stays in medical facilities, and count your blessings, instead of being foolishly or naively skeptical. You could have escaped death without realizing it, 'cause you weren't paying attention.

This sounds like all the delusional garbage that was being pawned off as "fact" before the ObamaCare passage. Maybe if substandard care was routine it would manifest itself in an unnatural number of deaths that couldn't escape scrutiny. News flash: People in hospitals are usually there because they're in worse health than people that aren't.

[daddy]

Clarice,

Speaking of flying Hospitals, some of my retired friends take turns flying ORBIS International "Flying Eye Hospital,".

Zips around the planet to different locales and offers free eye surgery to afflicted folks. Rumor control had it that my boss was or is thinking of donating a newer plane for the program, tho' I can't swear to that.

[A Casual Observation]

Captain Hate, your ignorance is stunning.

[Clarice]

We contribute to smile train and an outfit like Orbis which handles general medical care--people lend their planes; the medicos donate their time; pharmaceutical companies donate the medicine but gas for the planes is expensive and for tat they need donors.

No more big health or other charities where the administrative costs are exorbitant.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vnjagvet]

I understand your point, ACO. But I am a very finicky and observing patient with many frequent flier points. Also, a significant portion of my litigation and mediation practice involved medical malpractice matters, so I am not unaware of the problems you describe. I casually mention my professional experience if necessary. And when I see a problem, I make myself known. I also make clear I am in charge of my care. In addition, my ever vigilant wife has a Bachelor of Nursing degree from the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania. She was a floor nurse at a major hospital for 2 years and taught nursing for 3 at another major hospital.

It is unfortunate that we must use so much energy managing our care. But as in the purchase of most other services, caveat emptor applies to hospitals and other forms of medical care.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vnjagvet]

Just where are you getting the information, ACO, that makes you any less ignorant than the rest of us poor JOMers? It might be helpful for you to share it so that we may become as knowledgeable as you are.

[Clarice]

True, Jim, patients must be watchful and insistent that they are in charge of their care. And when they are unable to do so, friends and family must be their hospital ombudsmen,

[Captain Hate]

He doesn't have any, Jim; he's just blithely badmouthing people much more responsible and contributing far more to society than deadbeats like him. If TM was as responsible as hospitals, he'd have emptied the bedpan of turds like him.

[Jane]

This sounds like all the delusional garbage that was being pawned off as "fact" before the ObamaCare passage.

Consider the source (and ignore it).

[Captain Hate]

Good advice, Jane.

[jimmyk]

ACO is exaggerating--substandard (in the sense of life-threatening) care isn't routine, but it does happen. I don't think anyone wants to roll the dice, so it is important to be on guard, ask questions, and generally look out for yourself or the patient you are taking responsibility for. Apart from hygiene, you generally know a lot more about your situation than the doctors, so you have to take charge. That's just common sense.

[matt]

daddy;

a friend of mine does that and has logged many hours down to Mexico and Central America. It is simply amazing to see the work so many of these organizations do.

Having an informed, implacable member of the family ready to call for second opinions is often critical. Misdiagnoses are far too common and are usually honest mistakes, but lives can be in the balance.

Technology has had an incredible impact, but if someone does not see a critical factor and act, dead is dead.

The central fallacy of Obamacare is that the quality of care will somehow magically improve while costs drop while using the same old systems and metrics that got us into the mess in the first place.

[Melinda Romanoff]

CH-

A discussion on the etymological history of "Sunk" and "Capsized", merely for educational review, might be a worthwhile exercise.

[A Casual Observation]

A few years ago while I was listening to Jim Bohanan's talk radio show, he and other callers got to talking about paleontology and archeology, and one caller briefly told us about ground penetrating radar, saying that it was being used to make discovereries in paleontology and archeology, to which, to my desmay, Jim Bohanan and other callers reacted by scoffing, saying that there was no such thing as ground penetrating radar, which, of course, there is, and that one caller was right.

You dimwits remind me of those ignorant scoffers. Whenever you haven't heard about something, it didn't happen. I reiterate; the ignorance of you toothless goobers is stunning.

[(Another) Barbara]

I reiterate; the ignorance of you toothless goobers is stunning.

Posted by: A Casual Observation

Why do you do that? You made some interesting observations, then subverted the value of everything you said by stooping to a "toothless goober" level of conversation. I always stop reading when names are called. It astonishes me what someone will say to another when he feels invisible. I now picture you entirely differently than I did when I read your earlier comments today. Sad.

[A Casual Observation]

Barbara is offended because she has one tooth left in her otherwise empty head. Go brush your tooth, Barbara. :)

[Melinda Romanoff]

Another argument sunk.

[A Casual Observation]

You dumb broad.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Such endearments for St. Valentine's Day.

You really shouldn't have....

[Sara]

Just where are you getting the information, ACO, that makes you any less ignorant than the rest of us poor JOMers? It might be helpful for you to share it so that we may become as knowledgeable as you are.

I agree with ACO and I get my information FIRST HAND. I get it from being the legal spokesperson for my Mother, I get it from the atrocious treatment I've gotten as a patient, and I get it from my d-i-l, who is now working in home health care. And I get from a cousin who had to go to court to get her father out from under a death sentence at a rehab facility in Florida and back to decent care at the Univ. of Pittsburgh Medical Center. Never ever leave a loved one unattended by a family member.

There are excellent doctors and decent facilities. I had both in Baltimore. I had scary treatment (nearly bled to death after surgery due to medical neglect) at one of the so-called best hospitals in the Midwest and what you get in California is hard to call care and should be called warehousing and doctoring by Sacramento rule makers and cops. Try to protect yourself or a loved one and you are threatened with arrest or legal suits.

This is the only comment I will make on the subject since it hits very close to home and I am in no mood these days to try to overcome the ignorance of others here, but suffice to say, I pray that none of you will ever have to experience what is really happening out there in our hospitals, rehab centers, assisted living facilities, etc.

[(Another) Barbara]

Oh that's funny.

[(Another) Barbara]

Oh that's funny.

My comment was in reference to ACO's remark about Melinda being dumb.

[matt]

GPR has very limited success to date. It is also extremely expensive. Most paleontology and archaeology are still done the old fashioned way.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Another veil of smoke for clientele, please.

[Melinda Romanoff]

And thanks, (A)B, that's kind of you!

[Melinda Romanoff]

matt-

What's the Watts/m2 throughput for an ordinary rig?

Any idea? Or should I put it to MT?

[A Casual Observation]

Matt doesn't have a clue. He just made that up.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Moving on to a heat sink.

[Benjamin Franklin]

"My comment was in reference to ACO's remark about Melinda being dumb."

Similar to the self-srving dodge, 'Obama's not that smart'...

[Jane]

I am in no mood these days to try to overcome the ignorance of others here

From the person here who is always offended and vows that she never offends.

[Melinda Romanoff]

I would expect a Poisson distribution in observing Gauss, dependent upon the medium.

[A Casual Observation]

LOL Dumb broad is frantically Googling ... alphabetically.

[daddy]

For those who think Health Care is substandard now, here's a prediction.

It's going to get a whole lot more substandard in future, now that we are selectively pushing Affirmative Action Med students thru' Med school at the expense of those with better preMed qualifications.

[(Another) Barbara]

It's going to get a whole lot more substandard in future, now that we are selectively pushing Affirmative Action Med students thru' Med school at the expense of those with better preMed qualifications.

True dat, daddy. Our physicians will be wearing purple lab coats with the SEIU logo on the pockets.

The ones we have now are already looking for a way to get out; no competent doc wants to report to his masters at HHS. It's not a field that will attract the best and brightest any longer, and we'll pay the price.

As my husband always says to cheer me up "Thank God we're old and will be dead soon."

[A Casual Observation]

The dimwits here resent *anybody who makes them feel insecure, inferior, inadequate and stupid ..... *you know, the 300,300,000 other people in the United States who have IQs above the IQs of eggplants?

[Jack is Back!]

The retina specialist I saw for my floaters is an ex-flight surgeon who every 2 years does an ORBIS trip down to South America. Gives up 2 weeks and does hundreds of catarat and detached retina laser surgeries. Just another guy in America making thousands and giving of himself. Its called charity and I am still wondering when we will see the same from Dear Leader.

[Melinda Romanoff]

I suppose you're going to try and explain the difference between Gaussian and Poissons distributions in three words or less, next.

[A Casual Observation]

Hmmm, how about, you're a ditz? Works for me.

[daddy]

"Its called charity and I am still wondering when we will see the same from Dear Leader."

Now, now JiB, don't be too harsh. Don't forgot that Hillary did donate Bill's undershorts to The Salvation Army and only wrote off a dollar per each pair of his given away soiled skivies on her Taxes.

[Melinda Romanoff]

Sink, Sank, Sunk.

You better get the water under your ledge checked out. Might be contagious.

[A Casual Observation]

Melinda is a name that mommies give to their baby girls which were dropped on their heads.

I've encountered three Melindas, and all three of them were retards.

But then, I suppose that, when you were a baby, your little brother could have scooped out too much of that gooey stuff from the soft spot on top of your head.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vnjagvet]

Since you directed that last comment to my quote, Sara, I wonder what I said that contradicts your description of your difficulties with the medical system. I thought I made it clear that I was merely relating my experiences, neither defending the medical care in the US nor attacking ACO's general views.

Because he seemed to be implying that I didn' t know what I was talking about, I wanted to let him know that I was not unaware of bad care rampant in hospitals. I know very well that I was fortunate to have had access to hospitals that gave me good care. My heart goes out to those who were not as fortunate. Some of them were my clients.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vnjagvet]

ACO is in his Mr. Hyde stage. Pot meet kettle.

[Ignatz]

--but suffice to say, I pray that none of you will ever have to experience what is really happening out there in our hospitals, rehab centers, assisted living facilities, etc--

Why is it that people who have a different experience are automatically ignorant? Perhaps no one should extrapolate their anecdotal knowledge into general beliefs.
Over the last seven years my wife has undergone at least five operations, two other week long hospitalizations, including some time in the ICU and emergency rooms, I've lost count of how many scans and hundreds of trips to the chemo room, all of this taking place in three or four different hospitals and many other medical offices. In none of any of that have we experienced the horror-show others describe.
I doubt the system is as good overall as we've experienced but doubt it is as bad as others have either.
The system including our Blue Shield has worked extremely well for us.

[A Casual Observation]

And you're in your blowhard stage, Jim. All that I read in your post at 2:50 was smoke, mirrors and bullshit. No substance. No facts. Nothing that I chose to dignify with a reply at the time. You're a sheep, not a sheep dog. (sigh)

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vnjagvet]

There was nothing in that 2:50 post that I did not personally experience. You are making a fool of yourself, ACO. Your demeaning and nasty comments make it difficult to carry on a dialogue with you.

[Benjamin Franklin]

"Melinda is a name that mommies give to their baby girls which were dropped on their heads."

For reasons unknown, Melinda is really Mel the male commodities trader.

[jimmyk]

As the saying goes, the plural of anecdote is not data.

[Clarice]

Next one who answers ACO or Ben gets it between the eyes. The pistolas are armed and cocked. Warning.

[narciso]

Well he is, so he extrapolates thusly,