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February 24, 2012

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MarkO

First

GMAX

No it doesnt appear that he pressed his legal team at all. And then lied in the debate. How else does one see it?

centralcal

These sorts of things are what make many of us queasy about Romney.

Rocco

He lied

Jack is Back!

Was he wearing his Magic Underwear when he lied?

MarkO

I'm confused by the chronology but trying to stay optimistic. After all, Duke won.

I think TM has the best of the argument about which law was in effect, based on these slim readings, but I don't know.

I know Romney's not, but are any of the other candidates Catholic? What? Oh.

MarkO

Another fine day to fight among ourselves over our religious differences while Obama crows that he's got 5 more years (in all 57 states).

MarkO

And, NRO, founder Bill Buckley, doesn't think it's a good idea to seem petty about religion:

Some of his comments are indefensible, and even some of Santorum’s defensible assertions would have been better left to someone else — someone not seeking the presidency — to say. Santorum’s remarks about Senator McCain were unwise and uncharitable. Nor do we need political leaders to share their theological judgments about the various denominations that call themselves Christian. There is no good reason for a prospective president to pledge to lecture Americans about contraception.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/291839/devil-and-rick-santorum-editors

MarkO

Got to feed and water the livestock.

Chubby

((Was he wearing his Magic Underwear when he lied?))

istm that is an odd comment coming from someone who recently and quite properly expressed disgust at comments about ash smudges

Danube of Thought

Minus 13 at Raz today.

narciso

Ah, the smell of burning straw men, with just the right scent of capitulation and misdirection.

Jim Ryan

I'm not showing up on primary day here in Virginia. I think Virginian GOP should exercise their right to exhibit low voter turnout on that day, and then vote for whichever dipshit is running against Obama in November.

Captain Hate

Has it really reached the level where we're using the NRO squishes defending McRINO as making a valid point?

Danube of Thought

That NRO statement expresses my views exactly.

Rick Ballard

What happened to the Lockean discourse disclaiming the fact that Hillarycare begat Romneycare which begat Obamacare due to the subtle yet entirely meaningless differences in the manner in which the mandate is imposed? Is cornering the weasel without noting whether religious institutions actually acted against conscience really sufficient?

IOW - Did Governor Romney ever actually enforce the statute in consonance with the political jabber he used to suck up to progressive baby killers?

Rocco

This sure sounds like he did

“On that basis, I have instructed the Department of Public Health to follow the conclusion of my own legal counsel and to adopt that sounder view,” Romney said. “In my personal view, it’s the right thing for hospitals to provide information and access to emergency contraception to anyone who is a victim of rape.”

http://www.crisismagazine.com/2012/romney-told-catholic-hospitals-to-administer-abortion-pills

narciso

Hegelian discourse, Rick, thesis and antithesis, which in turn was hatched in the ill begotten EMTALA law of 1986, and the HMO
bill of 1971,

Janet

Will this "shut up about your moral beliefs" standard be applied to Dems too? Dems go into the pulpits of churches & rant on & on & on...& there is no outrage. Santorum gives a speech to a Catholic group & is pummeled.
I have to hear about the moral belief that abortion is great ad nauseum, but we can't hear that it is wrong?
I'm sick, sick, sick of the double standard.

Nor do we need political leaders to share their theological judgments about the various denominations that call themselves Christian.

Someone better start pointing out how many of the "churches" are not churches at all, but are political groups. Wright's church is a perfect example. It cannot be a Christian church if Luis Farrakhan is allowed to guest preach there. At the very minimum a Christian church must believe in Jesus Christ for heaven's sake!
...and the so-called evangelical Christian writers like Jim Wallis. These guys get money from Soros & are left wing political activists. Like Reverend Jesse Jackson & the Reverend Al Sharpton. What a joke.

Jane

I trust Rocco on this issue as I think he follows this stuff.

I do not however, ever, trust the Boston Globe.

Rick Ballard

Rocco,

I agree. It's just that the sounds made by a man without any principles do not necessarily comport with the actions which he takes. Did the faith based organizations actually act against conscience or did the matter become one of 'prosecutorial discretion' and wind up as a small lump under a big rug?

Narciso,

Locke (and Berkeley and Hume) provided the rope for Hegel. Honest.

Danube of Thought

Read Dorothy Rabinowitz on Santorum in today's WSJ.

narciso

Ditto, Janet, how about that skincrawling religious institute, that was fronting this
rule, maybe if they relabeled it the Pagan Institute, there would be truth in labeling,

narciso

True, but Hegel veered right off the path, into an oncoming train,

Captain Hate

I'm still trying to figure out what time machine Buckley was using to talk about Santorum.

Clarice

I believe Romney was referring to requiring hospitals regardless of who ran them to provide information to rape victims about services they themselves did not provide.
At times our candidates do not treat English as though it were their native language.

narciso

Meybe he doesn't know his own rule, then again it is the Globe, I would doubt the color
of the sky, they told me,

Clarice

Exactly, narciso.

Chubby

((Read Dorothy Rabinowitz on Santorum in today's WSJ.))

I had a look at it.

No Santorum is not my preferred candidate. ABO is my preferred candidate. And I believe ABO can beat Obama.

So Santorum has ideas that are unpopular with secularism ... I don't think that card's going to work this time around. More worrisome is the residency issue that sunk him in PA.

SWarren

From Rocco's link:

Liberals joined in attacking Romney’s defense of Catholic hospitals. But that defense did not last long.

The same day the Globe ran its editorial, Romney held a press conference. Now he said his legal counsel had advised him the new emergency contraception law did trump the 1975 conscience law.

“On that basis, I have instructed the Department of Public Health to follow the conclusion of my own legal counsel and to adopt that sounder view,” Romney said. “In my personal view, it’s the right thing for hospitals to provide information and access to emergency contraception to anyone who is a victim of rape.”

A true leader would have said: I will defend the First Amendment right of Catholics to freely exercise their religion — against those who would force them to participate in abortions — all the way to the Supreme Court.

Jack is Back!

Chubby,

I see typepad ate my reply to you:

Sorry, if you were offended but it was a tongue in cheek reference to the Charles Blow tweet on prior post. I guess you can say I am an Immoral Exhibitionist:)

Chubby

Jack, I'm sorry your post got eaten. Without emoticons, it's often difficult to tell the tone of the written word.

Rocco

Rebecca Kiessling's Story

I was adopted nearly from birth. At 18, I learned that I was conceived out of a brutal rape at knife-point by a serial rapist. Like most people, I'd never considered that abortion applied to my life, but once I received this information, all of a sudden I realized that, not only does it apply to my life, but it has to do with my very existence. It was as if I could hear the echoes of all those people who, with the most sympathetic of tones, would say, “Well, except in cases of rape. . . ," or who would rather fervently exclaim in disgust: “Especially in cases of rape!!!” All these people are out there who don‘t even know me, but are standing in judgment of my life, so quick to dismiss it just because of how I was conceived. I felt like I was now going to have to justify my own existence, that I would have to prove myself to the world that I shouldn’t have been aborted and that I was worthy of living. I also remember feeling like garbage because of people who would say that my life was like garbage -- that I was disposable.

http://www.rebeccakiessling.com/Othersconceivedinrape.html

centralcal

Wow, Rocco. Very moving.

SWarren

A powerful testimony, Rocco. Thanks for the link.

pagar

"I have to hear about the moral belief that abortion is great ad nauseum, but we can't hear that it is wrong? "

I simply do no believe that there is anything moral about killing inconvenient children.

Captain Hate

Powerful stuff, Rocco. Life isn't simple and doesn't reduce well for sound bytes or bumper stickers.

Jane

I think I saw her on TV once Rocco, which made her statements all the more compelling.

Rocco

Thanks all, abortion's an issue near and dear to my heart. My sister had an abortion when she was 17 and I'm sure my mother approved it. I pray my heart out for that unborn child and that God will forgive them. I was all in for Mitt, now I'm not so sure.

jimmyk

A true leader would have said: I will defend the First Amendment right of Catholics to freely exercise their religion — against those who would force them to participate in abortions — all the way to the Supreme Court.

This was a state law, right? Would the SC have had any jurisdiction here?

Nonetheless, at the very least Mitt might have said something like: "I must reluctantly abide by my legal counsel's determination that we are legally obliged to do this, even though I am personally opposed to mandating that religious institutions provide services that are counter to their beliefs."

Jane

I dunno, I think you can't expect a politician to say that in a liberal state. That doesn't mean he should have not have done it, but the expectation is a little ridiculous. It's not like he was hired to bring conservative vision to MA.

Jack is Back!

jimmyk,

Or he could be courageous rather than political or legal or bending to the bureaucratic mandates of legislation and just said, NO IT IS WROING! And regardless of legal counsel's opinion I am prepared to deal with this through the appellate process. Let the cards fall where they may.

Obama has no problem following his corrupt principles despite of the constitution like his recent so called recess appointments, the contraception kerfuffle, voting rights, NLRB rulings on Boeing, etc.

Reagan had a little of that in him as did W. Sometimes the best politics is to lead with your own private conscience and intentions.

Dianne

This is nothing new. Romney's own ads and his PAC's ads lied about Newt Gingrich in Florida, too. All liberals lie, and Romney is most definitely a liberal and a pathological liar. Do you believe that he will try to get Obamacare repealed?

jimmyk

JiB, I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know to what extent he was legally bound by the opinion of his counsel. For all I know he could have been impeached for doing otherwise. Nor would I necessarily be encouraging him to act like Obama. But clearly he didn't seem to conflicted or reluctant to act on his legal advice.

Clarice

For what it's worth--I would never carry the child of a rapist. I wouldn't wait to take the morning after pill so that there was nothing much to the process.
(a) Nine months of carrying this burden and a life time of sacrifice to carry the child of a beast? Not I.I didn't marry just any old jerk--I looked for a bright, responsible person to be the father of my child and I'll be damned if a serial rapist was that person.
(b) Putting up for adoption my flesh and blood in such a circumstance, not for me either.

When you've carried a child, birthed it and raised it you can get back to me with your views. Until then, I care not what you think.

dinglewoodnorwoodbill

http://www.punditandpundette.com/2012/02/romney-did-require-catholic-hospitals.html

Apparently Romney has lied in the debate and is disqualified as a candidate. He stands for everything wrong with Obama on conscience protection, according to this analysis. He did throw Catholic hospitals under the bus.

This ought to be Santorum’s new attack ad?

Roland

A woman is violently raped. She is an atheist. She thinks a fertilized ovum is not a person. She is in bad condition. She is taken to the nearest hospital, one that happens to be Catholic. There are no other hospitals nearby due to the natural competitive pressure of the Catholic hospital.

She asks for the morning after pill. She is refused. If she wants to get one, she will have to, in her battered and still terrified condition, leave the hospital and travel to where there are people who respect her view on the subject and her right to not be forced to bear the child of the animal who violently raped her.

And you guys are worried about the rights of the hospital.

Do I understand this correctly?

Clarice

No. Santorum should skip attack ads on Romney and focus on the many flaws of the present CiC.

Clarice

Oh, please. She can go to the nearest pharmacy or have a friend go for her. And she doesn't have to do it immediately,Roland.

"The phrase "morning-after pill" is a misnomer; ECPs are effective when used shortly after intercourse. Depending on the drug, they are licensed for use for up to 107 to 120 hours after unprotected sexual intercourse or contraceptive failure."

I really wish Axelturf would send better meat here.

Roland

Why do you assume she would have a friend with her? What if she does not?

What if she has been held captive for four or five days while being raped?

Who is Axelturf? Do you have any idea how close minded you sound when you call a new commenter "meat?"

I am a conservative, Clarice. In some ways I am even more of a social conservative than "conservatives" who think releasing violent criminals early is the compassionate thing to do.

Ignatz

--What if she has been held captive for four or five days while being raped?--

Why do all your 'what if's' make your argument easier? Leads to lazy thinking.

If a Catholic can be compelled to abort a fertilized ovum, which their religious beliefs compel them to consider a person, then why can't they be compelled to perform late term abortions?

Barbara

Excellent article by Dorothy Rabinowitz on Santorum int the Wall Street Journal (LUN). Thanks DoT.

I had no idea that he had criticized President Kennedy's 1960 speech on the separation of church and state saying, "I almost threw up... [Kennedy] threw his faith under the bus in that speech."

Apart from Santorum's routine religious pronouncements, as a Catholic I find this comment very disturbing. It's not only unstatesmanlike, it rolls back precious ground gained by Catholics, including Santorum, to run for the highest office in the country.

Porchlight

In some ways I am even more of a social conservative than "conservatives" who think releasing violent criminals early is the compassionate thing to do.

What "conservative" thinks that?

Barbara
When you've carried a child, birthed it and raised it you can get back to me with your views. Until then, I care not what you think.

Well said, Clarice.

Clarice

Axelturf must be scraping the bottom of the barrel..maybe it's cause contributions to the lightbringer are falling substantially short of the bruited $ billion mark.

Roland

A Catholic is not being forced to abort a fertilized ovum. The Catholic hospital emergency personnel who are occasionally in a position of power over non-Catholics as a consequence of engaging in the competitive world of providing medical care are being forced to make the choice available to the patient, if that patient wants to make the choice.

Porchlight

When you've carried a child, birthed it and raised it you can get back to me with your views. Until then, I care not what you think.

You're not obligated to care what I or anyone else thinks. But I hope you're not offering the argument that only mothers who have birthed and raised children can speak with authority on such issues.

Roland

What "conservative" thinks that?

Huckabee and Barbour, for instance.

Captain Hate

Granting pardons, while part of a long tradition which predates this country, is in no way a "conservative" value and when abused has been roundly criticized as such.

Jane

I blame those bad Catholic hospitals for providing care to those in need Roland. At least when Obamacare gets up and going there won't be enough docs to staff them.

A gigantic rabbit is hopping outside my window. Has Spring sprung?

Clarice

Absolutely not, porch.I am directing my comments to those who suggest women who are raped should have no options.

Roland

I understand abuse of the pardon power is not a conservative value. That was exactly my point.

sbw

Accusative people who appear on the blog for the first time spouting stereotypical talking points are called meat -- it’s a term of affection.

Porchlight

Thanks, clarice.

Ignatz

--A Catholic is not being forced to abort a fertilized ovum. The Catholic hospital emergency personnel who are occasionally in a position of power over non-Catholics as a consequence of engaging in the competitive world of providing medical care are being forced to make the choice available to the patient, if that patient wants to make the choice.--

Ah I see. You must be the author of Barry's "accommodation".
A Catholic who is compelled to provide an abortifacient and is thereby an accessory to the abortion is not actually swallowing the pill himself, so it's AOK.
Presumably Catholic nurses have no pangs of conscience if they're only handing the forceps to the doctor who then sticks it in the brain of a child in a partial birth abortion either.

Roland

Thank you, sbw, for explaining how my "talking points" are "stereotypical."

Frankly, I am astounded. I thought there were some smart people here. All I have gotten in reply to my concerns about the rights of the rape victim is sheer knee-jerk idiocy.

I can get the hint.

Porchlight

I understand abuse of the pardon power is not a conservative value. That was exactly my point.

I understood your point to be that Haley and Barbour espoused the general view that violent criminals should be released early. That is not the same thing as granting pardons to specific individuals.

If a woman forgives her husband for cheating on her, can she fairly be said to hold that cheating husbands should generally be forgiven?

Porchlight

Huckabee and Barbour, sorry.

Ben Franklin

"I can get the hint."

It takes intestinal fortitude, Roland. Hang in there. The harvested fruits of labor are bitter, but the smell of fertilizer is sweet.

Jane

I hate when people mis-use the word "rights". At least stupid people don't do that.

Ignatz

--All I have gotten in reply to my concerns about the rights of the rape victim is sheer knee-jerk idiocy.--

I have pointed out there is no discernible cut off point to the logic behind your example and you have responded with sophistry.
Try again.

Melinda Romanoff

Anybody notice that the Milwaukee insurance scheme is cooked up as soon as funds in Wisconsin recall effort start to look a bit light?

AliceH

Sorry, guy. You lost me with "If she wants to get one, she will have to...travel to where there are people who respect her view on the subject."

You think having a Catholic Institution set aside one of its fundamental moral beliefs, or having an employee of that institution just disregard those moral beliefs, is RESPECTFUL?

Ben Franklin

" just disregard those moral beliefs, is RESPECTFUL?"

Most of you folks claim 'libertarian', right?

Isn't that 'live and let live'?

WTF makes you so determined to foist your beliefs on others?

Just askin....

AliceH

How did you turn finding it wrong to compel another to compromise their beliefs get twisted into "foist your beliefs on"?

Captain Hate

All I have gotten in reply to my concerns about the rights of the rape victim is sheer knee-jerk idiocy.

No, you created an unrealistic strawman and then asked people to respond to it. Too bad you didn't like the responses which pointed out exactly what it was.

Sue

What if she has been held captive for four or five days while being raped?

Well, I know math isn't my strong suit, but if she has been held 4 or 5 days while being raped, the morning after pill probably isn't going to work. Unless the name "morning after" doesn't really mean "morning after".

Sue

Oh...I should read from the top down.

The phrase "morning-after pill" is a misnomer

Thanks.

Sara

Was he wearing his Magic Underwear when he lied?

It isn't underwear and it isn't magic. Maybe you should consult your magic necklace beads for your answer.

Sara

Most of you folks claim 'libertarian', right?

Libertarian? Who? All I see here is a bunch of uptight, I'm better than everyone, bigots.

jimmyk

Sara, did you see the previous post? The whole point was to call out Blow for his bigotry. I'm pretty sure JiB was making a humorous allusion to that.

Clarice

Of course she did, jimmyk. She told us just last night she reads every post

Jane

I think Roland should buy a bus and travel from Catholic hospital to Catholic hospital and look for rape victims to give the morning after pill.

So Roland what was your solution before the morning after pill was created?

Sara

Sara, did you see the previous post? The whole point was to call out Blow for his bigotry. I'm pretty sure JiB was making a humorous allusion to that.

Of course, I saw it. Doesn't mean JiB's comment was in response to that or that it was the least bit humorous. It was a sick and bigoted remark.

And Blow has apologized today, not that I accept his apology. But, I'm sure he'll be forgiven, afterall the LDS are fair game. Ask Jack.

Sara

Or GMAX, or Centracal, or Clarice or Ignatz, or a whole host of others.

Clarice

No one has ever attacked Mormons on JOM, Sara. Has it occurred to you you are imagining things?

Sara

Clarice: Yeah, right?

Sara

Clarice, I will never achieve the pinnacle of perfection you love to think you sit on. I wouldn't want to even. But, if I attacked Jews the way the LDS have been here, you'd be up in arms. Of course, I would be supporting you, not calling you names, or besmirching the men in your life. So shut up and leave me alone.

Clarice

Who has attacked LDS here? I am here everyday and have never seen it. You accused me along with others of this and it is slander. I never. have. or. would.

Clarice

JiB certainly didn't as jimmy showed you. And yet you have not apologized for the false accusation.

Sara

You accused me along with others of this and it is slander. I never. have. or. would.

Yeah, just like you never said I was the dumbest person online or that all the men in my life were losers, including my highly decorated, 30 year Vet husband. You are a proven liar, Clarice. Go fix one of your fancy dinners, the cost of which would feed most families for a week or more.

JiB hasn't said a word. And I have no intention of apologizing to him calling him out. What he said is there in black and white. You making excuses for him just makes it worse. There are no apologies for religious bigotry and no way to sugar coat it. And IT IS NEVER HUMOROUS.

centralcal

So shut up and leave me alone.

Oh. So you can make outrageous and false accusations, comment after comment, and everybody just "shut up" and "leave me alone." If silence and aloneness are what you seek, this is an odd place to come looking for it.

Clarice

I never said you "were the dumbest person online or that all the men in my life were losers". It is true that when you kept defending BF and attacking DoT, I said you had lousy taste in men but made it clear that that had nothing to do with your ex husband ot anyone in real life, just your online choices.

Again, I have never seen the regulars here engage in religious bigotry against Mormons or anyone else.
Get help. Seriously.

hit and run

All I see here is a bunch of ... bigots.

I wouldn't hang around a bunch of people I considered bigots. But then I don't consider the entirety of JOMers commenting on this thread to be bigots.

hit and run

There are no apologies for religious bigotry and no way to sugar coat it. And IT IS NEVER HUMOROUS.

This person should be labeled a bigot and no apologies should suffice:

Maybe you should consult your magic necklace beads for your answer.

Ignatz

--Or GMAX, or Centracal, or Clarice or Ignatz, or a whole host of others.--

I on a few occasions discussed the differences between orthodox Christianity and Mormonism. That differences exist seems to me an indisputable fact.
Are facts now not "fair game"?

Clarice

Yes, hit. I wasn't sure what that was-rosary beads? Oh, dear..what a mass of contradictions we are dealing with.

Sara

I never said you "were the dumbest person online or that all the men in my life were losers". It is true that when you kept defending BF and attacking DoT, I said you had lousy taste in men but made it clear that that had nothing to do with your ex husband ot anyone in real life, just your online choices.

More lies.

Clarice

I asked you when you first made those charges some time ago to show me where they were and you brushed it off. There is no evidence for these things because they never happened.

BtW what did you mean when you talked to JIB about his "magic necklace beads"?

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