Justified

An invented part of the controversy over the killing of Trayvon Martin revolves around whether George Zimmerman had some legal obligation to obey the suggestion by the 911 dispatcher that he not pursue Trayvon Martin (there is also some dispute over whether Zimmerman obeyed that instruction and was overtaken by Martin while returning to his car, but let's press on).

In the FAQ portion of their explanatory letter the City of Sanford claims this is a non-issue since a 911 dispathcer does not speak with the full weight of the law:

If Zimmerman was told not to continue to follow Trayvon, can that be considered in this investigation?

Yes it will; however, the telecommunications call taker asked Zimmerman “are you following him”. Zimmerman replied, “yes”. The call taker stated “you don’t need to do that”. The call taker’s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be required to follow. Zimmerman’s statement was that he had lost sight of Trayvon and was returning to his truck to meet the police officer when he says he was attacked by Trayvon.

Time will tell.  But in the course of poking around, I ran across this jaw-dropping illustration of the impotence and irrelevance of the 911 dispatcher:

On November 14, 2007, at about 2:00 p.m. a Pasadena, Texas man named Joe Horn was working at his computer inside his own residence in the 4900 block of Timberline when he heard the sound of breaking glass. He looked out the window of his home and saw two Hispanic men, Miguel Antonio DeJesus and Diego Ortiz, breaking into his neighbor’s house – a neighbor that Horn did not know very well. The 61-year-old Horn retrieved his 12-gauge shotgun from his pickup truck where he kept it for personal protection. Horn then called a 911 operator to report the burglary in progress. He explicitly told the operator that he was armed with a shotgun and that he was going out to kill the two men. The 911 operator repeatedly instructed Horn to remain inside his house until the police arrived. The following are excerpts from that 911 call:

"I'm not going to let them go. I'm not going to let them get away with this," Horn told the operator. “I'm gonna shoot. I'm gonna shoot."

"Stay inside the house and don't go out there," the operator calmly instructed Horn. "I know what you're feeling, but it's not worth shooting someone over this."

"I have a right to protect myself,” Horn replied. “And a shotgun is a legal weapon. It's not an illegal weapon."

"Mr. Horn, I want you to listen to me carefully, OK?,” the 911 operator said. “I've got officers coming out there. I don't want you to go outside that house and I don't want you to have that gun in your hand when the officers are poking around out there."

"I ain't going to let them get away with this,” Horn adamantly replied. “They stole something. They got a bag. I'm doing this."

"Don't go out the house," the operator warned. "Don't be shooting nobody."
"Property's not worth killing someone over. OK? Don't go out the house.
Don't be shooting nobody,"

“I can't take a chance in getting killed over this. OK?” Horn replied.
"Mr. Horn, do not go outside the house,” the operator demanded. “You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun."

"You wanna make a bet," Horn responded. "I'm gonna kill them. They're gonna get away."

"I don't want you going outside, Mr. Horn," the operator said, almost futilely.

"Well, here it goes, buddy," Horn said. "You hear the shotgun clicking, and I'm going."

The sound of the shotgun clicking was picked up on the 911 tape.

“Move, you’re dead,” Horn warning the two men could be heard on the tape.

Three shotgun blasts were then picked up by the 911 recorder.

"Get the law over here quick. I had no choice," Horn frantically pleaded with the 911 operator. "They came in the front yard with me. I had no choice."

If that was a Hollywood script who would believe it?

As to the final disposition, after months of controversy a grand jury gave Joe Horn a pass.  That is Texas, not Florida, but still - wow.

 

 

 

Comments

[Janet]

Is Joe Horn running for POTUS? I would vote for him.

[narciso]

TRanto dug up this bit of sillyness;

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/30/opinion/the-gated-community-mentality.html?_r=1

[Chubby]

one similarity between Horn's case and Zimmerman's is that they both felt an outraged sense of injustice that thieves can get away with it. Not that Trayvon was a thief, but that was Zimmermans' background mindset as was recorded on the tape, "they always get away.." or words to that effect.

I think what happened is that Trayvon hid from his follower and then accosted him when Zimmerman doubled back to his truck.

[Steve]

This just shows how partial the justice system is in the US. If Trayvon was one of the thieves, Joe Horn would be doing life in federal prison today.

[Forbes]

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away...

[Steve]

Another question I have on the Trayvon shooting. If there was a struggle for the gun maybe Martin's fingerprints are on it.

[Steve]

Martin initially running away from Zimmerman has to be explained. He was running in the direction of his home. Could he have first been wanting to get something he had in his possession into a safe place like his home before confronting Zimmerman?

[Danube of Thought]

I think Sue informed us that Texas has a pretty unusual statute covering stuff like this, and maybe that's what got Horn off. But I think in most places he'd be in prison.

[Gmax]

Any word if the theives had on hoodies? How about skittles, were there any skittles?

[DebinNC]

Unless the robbers met Horn with weapons drawn, I'd have voted to send Horn to jail for something. Maybe the prosecutors overcharged him and the jury couldn't go along because the evidence wasn't there.

[Steve]

It is not like Martin was running from Zimmerman to be able to double back and get behind him for a surprise attack. He confronts Zimmerman and asks why he was following him. The scenario is he runs home to empty his pockets, then goes back out looking for Zimmerman. I wonder if Martin had suspected Zimmerman had called the police. He runs home or somewhere to empty his pockets to prepare for the imminent encounter with the police.

[Rick Ballard]

Sue,

See? Now we have evidence concerning the effect of sylvan bozons upon Ronulan emanations. It appears that it may be rather deleterious.

[Chubby]

((The scenario is he runs home to empty his pockets, then goes back out looking for Zimmerman.))

occam's razor is preventing me from accepting your scenario

so far there is no known admissiable fact, none whatsoever, to give foundation to what you've outlined, therefore indulging in it shows unjust bias, imo

[Gmax]

Now I can really say I like Piers Morgan but you know the narrative is turning when he hands a race baiter his head:

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/

[Steve]

"... so far there is no known admissiable fact, none whatsoever, to give foundation to what you've outlined, ..."

But he was running away from Zimmerman. Why did he do that? And then he traveled enough distance to get behind Zimmerman. Why? And keep in mind Zimmerman had seen Martin acting suspiciously, outside at night, in the rain.

[Gmax]

Here is a quote of note regarding the Horn justified shooting conclusion:

Quanell X said he is meeting with civil attorneys to discuss the next legal move. He said he planned to lobby lawmakers to change the Castle Doctrine, which he believes is racially motivated.[16] He went on to say, "This was a wild and out-of-control Western-thinking, gun-toting man who saw the opportunity to be judge, jury and executioner, and Harris County let him get away with it. But we’re not going to let him get away with it."

You know why he adopts X as his surname, dont you?

[Steve]

I think we are headed into riot territory. Just like the rioting after the Rodney King verdict. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots
If the grand jury comes back without an indictment watch out Florida.

[henry]

Dana, Romney made the same point in a tele-town hall Thursday night. Then yesterday Ryan was on all the local talk radio shows giving interviews (one of which you referred to). The point both made, and you miss, is that fiscal responsibility is the right approach to governing regardless of how it plays in elections. Both Romney and Ryan praise Walker for taking the lead in responsibly governing and letting the electoral consequences happen. In June we will have recall results that tell us whether fiscal responsibility is bad for elections. Note that even the unions expect Walker to win.

[Gmax]

http://www.gatewaypundit.com

[Steve]

"... Yup..How could a paranoid allow the suspect to get behind him? ..."

But why run when the inclination and/or intent was to confront?

[DebinNC]

Reportedly, ABC has seen phone records showing TM's gf DeeDee called TM at 7:12 and remained on the phone during the time of the confrontation. TM could have run and hid from GZ, but felt compelled to confront GZ because DeeDee was listening. Steve's idea that TM thought GZ had called police and had something on him he didn't want found, so he took the time to hide it, makes sense too.

[Gmax]

More evidence that the tide is turning. Note the dateline is the AP! Headline should "Hell Yeah We Biased the Story With Those Photos:

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. (AP) — When he was shot, Trayvon Martin was not the baby-faced boy in the photo that has been on front pages across the country. And George Zimmerman wasn’t the beefy-looking figure in the widely published mugshot.

Both photos are a few years old and no longer entirely accurate. Yet they may have helped shape initial public perceptions of the deadly shooting.

“When you have such a lopsided visual comparison, it just stands to reason that people would rush to judgment,” said Kenny Irby, who teaches visual journalism at the Poynter Institute, a journalism think tank in St. Petersburg, Fla.

The most widely seen picture of Martin, released by his family, was evidently taken a few years ago and shows a smiling, round-cheeked youngster in a red T-shirt. But at his death, Martin was 17 years old, around 6 feet tall

[PaulL]

"You don’t need to do that," is clearly not any kind of order, regardless:

"I'll go ahead and wash your car too."

"You don't need to do that."

"No, that's okay, I'll be happy to."

"OK, thanks, you're the best."

[boris]

No, this is about how they didn't do it.

[Gmax]

In Texas, a person has a right to use deadly force in certain circumstances to protect property

Per the Harris County DA. Perhaps thieves should ply their trade in another state?

[BR]

The Obama administration must think everybody in the world is focusing on this created news.

Sheriff Arpaio will be holding a press conference in about 2 hours, giving further information on the biggest scandal in American political history, the illegitimate, undocumented, fraudulently documented president who hoodwinked a nation.

The video will be up on various sites.

[Steve]

Zimmerman should be very worried. In the interest of public safety Zimmerman has to be convicted and put in prison. 60 died in the aftermath of the Rodney King verdict. Better Zimmerman in jail, in protective custody, than riots in the streets. Consider the impact on the Nov elections.

[Steve]

Can Zimmerman legally leave the country right now? He has not been arrested or charged with a crime. If he has citizenship in his Mother's native country he should go there to visit her.

[BR]

Sun Tsu: When your enemy starts speaking like you do, you've won. You can repeat my words anytime.

[Gmax]

This Steve character is a joke, right?

I am sorry Japanese Americans but this really for your own good and of course the good of the country? What?

[Extraneus]

I think we are headed into riot territory. Just like the rioting after the Rodney King verdict.

Well, the rioters should take note of the fact that there are lot more armed citizens in Florida than there were in California, back when truck drivers were dragged out of their trucks and beaten with bricks.

[rse]

I think we have Alinsky's have a KKK show up at your opponent's rally tactic at 12:02.

Discredit the message by tainting the messenger.

Or in the Internet age, post some hate speech on sites that care about facts and truth and parsing the MSM's propaganda campaign.

[Gus]

Top o'the mornin' to yee Dublin Dave!! Have ye had a wee dram of the Whisky again before postin' Lad.
Yer a good friend to the black children Dublin Dave!!
Slainte
Wee Gus.

[Danube of Thought]

In this country we don't imprison people to avoid a riot. We imprison them when they have been convicted of a crime.

[Gus]

GMAX. Steve is the slightly retarded brother of Ben Franklin.
Did you ever see the SWAMP PEOPLE show on HISTORY CHANNEL. The 2 brothers Ben and Steve shoot squirrels for dinner.

[boris]

"squirrels for dinner"

They are what they eat then.

[Jane]

Better Zimmerman in jail, in protective custody, than riots in the streets.

Yes by all means let's trade personal freedom for a ginned up Al Sharpton temper tantrum.

And in that vein, I think it is only appropriate that you leave this site Steve and never come back because no one here has a appetite for nonsense and by your own rules the majority overrules your personal freedom.

Tata

[Thomas Collins]

DOT, I want you to know that my wife had a chuckle over your tax lawyer joke yesterdary (although she didn't express an opinion on the extent to which she thought it applied to me). :-))

[Gus]

I think we should just cancel the November Presidential election, because once the KENYAN KONMAN loses, the inner cities of America are going to burn.

Right Stevie!!

[BR]

It's amazing to see the difference between Google and Bing when you search: "Arpaio press conference 31"

[BR]

The first 4 pages at Bing are all about the March 31 press conference and Lord Monckton's saying the BC is fishy.

At Google, you have to go to about page 6 before those items show up.

[Cecil Turner]

I thought this was going to be a thread on how Michael Ironside made a great addition to the Detroit hitman team, and how we were shaping up for a particularly festive season finale.

Needless to say, I'm disappointed.

[narciso]

Yeah, where has been lately, he was so menacing in the 80s on V, and a whole host of B movies, including those that run on Syfy.

[Danube of Thought]

Rev. Al is getting some traction:

PALMDALE, Calif. (AP) - Seven black teens have been arrested on suspicion that they committed a hate crime when they attacked a 15-year-old Hispanic boy while he was walking home from school in Southern California, according to the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office.

The March 14 beating in Palmdale was captured on video and posted on YouTube, but has since been removed from the site. The seven boys, ages 13 to 16, were arrested Wednesday for investigation of assault and committing a hate crime, Lt. Don Ford said.

The attack happened near Cactus Middle School, but Ford didn't know if any of the teens involved were students there.

The video shows as many as 10 boys surrounding the victim and challenging him to a fight. The suspects then began hitting the teen while others watched.

[narciso]

I mean McDonough does a serviceable villain, but where in Michigan, is he supposed to be from, Bloomfield Heights

[narciso]

Seriously, have they learned nothing, from the last 5 years, rhetorical question;

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/03/31/gop-congressman-proposes-overturning-the-ban-on-earmarks

[Gus]

Danube ,was the victim White-Hispanic??

[Clarice]

Excelet, Jane. Say, why don't you run for Markey's office?

[Tom Maguire]

Raylan and Boyd will dispatch the current crop of baddies on April 10, so we still have a bit of time. I say Dickie B has to survive, or else Boyd moves into pole position on "worst haircut".

[bunkerbuster]

Suppose Zimmerman has no injuries and no witness. What then?
He's told police he shot in self-defense.
So he can't be arrested, because there were no witnesses to the killing.

Presumably, under the Zimmerman standard, the police can't even arrest the shooter, since they have no way to prove he didn't feel his life was threatened.
It's up to the state to prove Zimmerman wrong beyond reasonable doubt.
But with no witnesses, how in the world would the state prove it wasn't self defense?
Remember, Zimmerman has ZERO burden of proof.
Sounds to me like the Zimmerman precedent means you can kill anyone, anytime under virtually any circumstances, as long as there are no witnesses. Just say you were attacked and feared for your life, or better yet: don't say a word as any would be in vain.

[boatbuilder]

Bubu--witnesses are not the only evidence. But what little we know about the evidence (and disregarding what all the jump-to- conclusions folks are claiming) indicates that there is nothing in this case which effectively challenges Zimmerman's account, and several witness accounts which clearly support it.

[Gus]

It's almost incomprehensible how stupid that comment was Buttbuster.
It's hard to imagine where your head is at, but I think I know where your head is.

[boatbuilder]

That Horn thing sounds like premeditated murder, even in Texas.

[Threadkiller]

The Martin precedent means you can claim to have gone to buy skittles and iced tea, even with no witnesses.(or skittles, or iced tea.)

[Gus]

RailShitter are you really ignorant of what the 1st Amendment applies to, or are you actually just another LIBTARD troll in need of attention??

[jwest]

I’m still trying to get a handle on the timeline.

From what I see, Zimmerman first called 911 at 19:11 to report the suspicious hoodie-clad youth. He was logged at 19:13 saying Trayvon was running. The police say they arrived on scene at 19:17. OK, everything makes sense.

Now, we’ve got Zimmerman showing up at the police station at 19:50. This station is 5.2 miles, 14 minutes from 1231 Twin Trees Ln. That leaves 19 minutes in which the police find Trayvon in back of the buildings, handcuff Zimmerman, get his side of the story, have him treated for his wounds in the back of the patrol car and leave for the station.

This all seems pretty quick.

[Jane]

Say, why don't you run for Markey's office?

Clarice,

I have been a single woman for my entire life. Can you imagine the skeletons in my closet?

Plus I don't live in his district.

[Clarice]

I don't think they actually questioned him much at the scene and other cops remained there to cordone it off. look for witnesses, get Trayvon transported to the morgue, etc. I don't see a problem with the timeline.

[DebinNC]

This all seems pretty quick.

Extremely quick, especially since police didn't think GZ needed to be rushed from the scene to the hospital.

[Gus]

jwest. I agree, clearly there is a conspiracy! How long does it usually take you to handle this type of situation?
And the time line doesn't include a quick stop at TACO LOCO on the way to the station.
I think you're on to something. I think the should have kept Zimmerman on the scene for a couple of more hours, or at least until Al Sharpton got there.

[Clarice]

Live in his district ? That's a requirement there? It isn't in Fla or lots of other places. We'll get you one of those adorable airstream trailers http://www.retrothing.com/2006/09/airstream_75th_.html and transport it to the district.

Closet, schmoset..you can explain that until recently you were a democrat and calim immunity for those years.

[jwest]

Gus, You might want to chill out just a bit. I’m on the side that is defending Zimmerman. The question about the timeline was just an observation about how fast he was taken away from the scene. Since I haven’t processed any homicide sites myself, it seemed to me that he was removed faster than I would have expected.

No need to go postal.

[Danube of Thought]

"So he can't be arrested"

Yes he can.

For reasons I have set forth, and will not repeat, at this point there is no such thing as a Zimmerman precedent.

This fellow is shockingly stupid.

[Threadkiller]

Jwest, where does the 19:50 come from?

[Gus]

jwest, no problem. I'm chillin! I gave your post some serious thought. And I just wanted to know how YOU usually handle such cases.
Let's cut to the chase jwest, HOW LONG SHOULD IT TAKE??

[Threadkiller]

If it comes off the surveillance camera at the police station, I present the possibility that some lazy ass had not adjusted the time for daylight savings.

If not, then I got nothing.

[pagar]

Does Sharpton know about this?

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/03/31/2-dead-12-hurt-in-mass-shooting-in-north-miami/

", the commander said, someone at the wake touched Andre’s body in the casket in a way that other gangs took as disrespectful."

[jwest]

The time did come from the surveillance camera at the police station.

On the timeline, I noticed that Trayvon was pronounced dead at 19:30. I assume the crew from Rescue 38 made the determination. If the Florida rescue squads operate like those in other states, they are two man crews backed up by a supervisor who drives a separate vehicle. Again with the assumptions, I thought the rescue squad would be working on Trayvon (even if it was just for show) until the he was pronounced dead, then one of the crew would look at Zimmerman. So now there is a total of 6 minutes to walk to the squad car, assess Zimmerman, clean the wound and his face and release him.

It just seemed fast.

[Captain Hate]

This fellow is shockingly stupid.

His ignorant previous posts should remove all shock value. Why does TM continue to bang this dead end topic which attracts trolls like dogshit attracts flies? Surely this is planned misdirection to distract attention from El JEFe's myriad failures in everything of importance.

[Gus]

Assuming your ASSumptions are 100% correct.

SO FUCKING WHAT???

[Rob Crawford]

He said he planned to lobby lawmakers to change the Castle Doctrine, which he believes is racially motivated.

WTF?!

Think about what this means. Quanell X thinks that recognizing that someone breaking into your home is likely to cause you harm, and thus allowing the homeowner to defend himself, is biased against blacks -- because he thinks blacks are more likely to commit home invasion?

Amazing how nastily racist the race hustlers are.

[jwest]

Gus, Aside from suggesting decaf and some deep breathing exercises, my only other thought is that you talk to someone who has experience dealing with anger issues.

Honestly, wouldn’t it be better if you were able to function in social settings? Take the time to help yourself get better.

[DebinNC]

One of the few times IL state senator Vote-Present cast a vote was against an amendment allowing an exemption from gun-ban laws for someone protecting himself in his own home. The amendment passed overwhelmingly.

[Gus]

I'm sure when all the cops and resuce personelle arrived they all took turns doing CPR on SKITTLES, and Whitey Jorge just stood around bleeding and checking basketball scores on his I-PHONE. Then at exactly 19;30 and 2 seconds, all of the rescue personell stopped working on SKITTLES and attended to Whitey Jorge for exactly 4 minutes, then it took 2 minutes to get White into the squad car, and 20MPH drive to the police station took 15 minutes!!!
Holy JKF Conpiracy Batman, something doesn't add up here. What are they hiding from us!!
jwest, you would have fit in great on the O.J. jury.

[Tom Maguire]

Re the 19:50 arrival at the police station and

I present the possibility that some lazy ass had not adjusted the time for daylight savings.

DST was March 11, well after the Feb 26 shooting. Of course, *maybe* they copied and timestamped this video after Mar 11 and snarled up the times.

I guess I could see whisking Zimmerman away before news crews and neighbors show up. But it is an interesting point - positive thinkers looking for (and not seeing) bloodstains on the grainy video of a red sweater were wondering whether the police had swung by Zimmerman's house for a change of clothes (the sweater presumably is evidence-bound).

Hard to fit that into the timeline, if jwest has it right.

[Clarice]

Unless the other jacket was in his truck.

[Gus]

I agree Tom, the TIMELINE is the key here.

Good grief.

[Tom Maguire]

Gus, I am hoping jwest's word to the wise is sufficient.

[Rob Crawford]

WTF?

Dana goes monkey-poo on a regular basis and is welcomed with open arms.

[Rick Ballard]

jwest,

I agree that it was pretty quick. Both the police and the EMTs moved much more quickly than my experience would dictate as normal procedure. There may be an actual written guideline for getting a participant away from the incident when a gunshot death occurs.

[jwest]

One more thing.

Has everyone agreed that Zimmerman had a butterfly bandage on his nose when he arrived at the police station?

I thought the frame at 7:58:08 while walking through a small office showed it fairly well.

[Gus]

Tom, what exactly is that supposed to mean?

[DebinNC]

Police arrived to find a dead body and the admitted shooter, who may have been semi-hysterical/incoherent. It would make sense for police to take GZ to the station to get his statement on video as soon as paramedics determined he didn't need to go straight to the hospital. After they had his statement and it was daylight, they might have returned to the scene to video GZ walking them through what happened when and where.

[Rob Crawford]

The funny thing is the folks screaming for the arrest and trial of Zimmerman don't seem to realize what would be the likely result: acquittal.

[Steve]

So Zimmerman takes two blows from Martin that cause damage. The first punch to his face that bloodies his noses and knocks him to the ground. The 2nd is the back of his head striking the sidewalk. Other than that, there is not much in the way of damage to Zimmerman. Considering that they end up on the grass, both blows that hurt Zimmerman and endanger him occur at the start of the fight. So, what is going on for the next minute, Martin on top of Zimmerman on the grass? And why does Zimmerman start to scream towards the end of the fight? The answer I think has to do with when does Zimmerman draw his weapon. If no blows from Martin are striking Zimmerman with any affect after the first two, why draw the gun? Likely he draws the gun soon after his head strikes the sidewalk. After he draws the gun the fight then focuses on Zimmerman trying to keep it and Martin trying to grab it. The screams are Zimmerman thinking his life is going end as Martin continues to try to get the gun. Finally, Zimmerman shoots him because Martin will not back away.

[Rob Crawford]

Steve, as a person dealing with social anxiety, I'm always impressed -- nay, amazed -- when I see someone so willing to make a fool of themselves in public.

[jwest]

I hope no one other than Gus misinterprets my comments on the timeline as my being anything other than mildly interested on the apparent speed that the events occurred and Zimmerman ended up at the station.

It does make sense that he would be taken away as soon as possible to avoid press and get him in an interview room for his statement.

[Gus]

It's amazing to me where this whole thing is going on the blog.

Either Whitey shot Skittles as a result of being assaulted and somewhat injured or he didn't.

The time the authorities arrived is documented completely. Over a half hour later, the shooter, WHITEY arrived at the Police station.
The time-line AFTER the POLICE ARRIVED is irrelevant to the shootings justification or not.

[Jeff]

That story about Horn reminds me of one of my favorite jokes:

This is the true story of George Phillips of Meridian, Mississippi, who was going to bed when his wife told him that he'd left the light on in the shed. George opened the door to go turn off the light but saw there were people in the shed in the process of stealing things.

He immediately phoned the police, who asked "Is someone in your house?" and George said no and explained the situation. Then they explained that all patrols were busy, and that he should simply lock his door and an officer would be there when available.

George said, "Okay," hung up, counted to 30, and phoned the police again.

"Hello, I just called you a few seconds ago because there were people in my shed. Well, you don't have to worry about them now because I've just shot them all."

Then he hung up. Within five minutes three squad cars, an Armed Response unit, and an ambulance showed up. Of course, the police caught the burglars red-handed.

One of the policemen said to George: "I thought you said that you'd shot them!"

George said, "I thought you said there was nobody available!"

[Ralph L]

Can you imagine the skeletons in my closet?
As in Faulkner's "A Rose for Emily" skeletons (on the bed)?

Horn got off because of the operator's double negative: Don't go shooting nobody.

Deb, thanks for the reminder. Strange that O vote wasn't an issue in 2008. Didn't O claim his apartment in NYC was regularly broken into, or am I thinking of someone else? You'd think living in NYC, Boston, and Chicago would have taught him something about crime and self-preservation that he didn't pick up in Hawaii and Indonesia.

[DebinNC]

lol, Jeff

[Janet]

I present the possibility that some lazy ass had not adjusted the time for daylight savings.

I worked in a bank in the late 80's & TK is exactly right about the time stamps on surveillance cameras being suspect. I don't know if they are the same nowadays though.
Automatic like computers?...or human set?

[Clarice]

Gus, jwest is a perfectly reasonable poster. Loots of people here like to sort thru the facts as they are reported or as evidence demonstrates them. We do a lot of that here. I think Tom was asking you to tone it down becuase you seem to be trying to cut off the discussion for no reason.

If womeone starts floating stuff that's preposterous and contra the facts, fire away.

Anyway. you and jwest are BOTH my favorites.

[Clarice]

Jeff, I remember that one and it's always good for a laugh.

[Threadkiller]

Good call on DST, TM. Anymore it seems like all this happened yesterday.

[Ignatz]

--Why does TM continue to bang this dead end topic which attracts trolls like dogshit attracts flies?--

It may be a dead end topic, CH, but unfortunately it's not a dead one.
I wish it was.
But if wishes were horses beggars wouldn't have anything dead to beat.
Does that make sense? Probably not, but my brain has been addled by Trayvon-Zimmerman syndrome.

[Rick Ballard]

jwest,

I'd like a to see a timeline running from the 7-11 "purchase" through notification and identification of the body by Trayvon™®'s father to the initial statement issued by the race baiting 'attorney' employed by the martin's to drum up publicity and then to BOzo's formal adoption of Trayvon™® as the son he never had.

[Rob Crawford]

Jeff's story reminds me of this.

[Gus]

Thank you Clarice. Sorry jwest.

[Gus]

BTW Clarice, I thought Tom was telling me to tone it down because I'm White-Black.