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March 27, 2012


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Let's get to the SC today.

Danube of Thought

Does he have to take the stand to rely on self-defense? It's my understanding that in Florida if he pleads it, the burden is on the government to disprove it beyond a reasonable doubt.


I want SCOTUS mandate prediction votes on record ....


Predictions on just the mandate, NK, or on the whole shebang?


There would be no reason for Zimmerman to 'take the stand' if he is not charged because he was defending himself, and the Stand Your Grand law is deemed to be his defense. If, however, the federal government accuses and charges him with a hate crime, then we'll be subjected (along with poor George, of course) to terrible racist theater.

Hopefully, the black panther who's put a bounty on Zimmerman's head will be charged with a hate crime too.

Wanna' bet which will happen.


1)Whitey goes on Watch patrol
2)White Zimmerman spots Skittles boy Martin and thinks he seems suspicious.
3)Whitey approaches Skittles and Skittles doesn't like it.
4)Whitey Zimmerman calls 911.
5)Skitttles Martin runs.
6)White-racist-dude Zimmerman heads back to his car.
7)Skittles and Whitey cross paths and have words.
8)Skittles breaks Whiteys nose with a sucker punch and Whitey falls to the ground.
9)Skittles jumps on top of Whitey as Whitey yells for help.
10)Skittles smacks Whitey's head into sidewalk causing injury.
11)Whitey gets his gun and shoots Skittles.
12)End of story, end of Skittles.

Please correct me where you feel I am inaccurate.



Porch-- I think the AIA as inapplicable is 9-0 so no real issue there, the Mandate obviously, tomorrow, I think Medicaid Mandate is a win for the Gov't, so for now, just Mandate predictions.

Danube of Thought

Any mandate prediction ought to be accompanied by a severability prediction. Bear in mind that the fastest possible road to single-payer is that the mandate is voided but the rest of the law left intact.

I can't predict anything till I've read a bit of the arguments.


Fair enough DoT...


DoT-- you may want to check the audio late in the argument when kennedy talks about a national insurance market-- that is the source of my pessimism. That plus Kennedy being a drama queen.


I don't think they'll uphold the mandate but how they get around severability, I just can't guess.


Some of this was quoted on the other thread, but here's The Hill:

Supreme Court justices lobbed tough questions at the U.S. solicitor general defending the healthcare law’s insurance mandate in the second day of oral arguments in the case.

Several of the court’s conservatives appeared skeptical of the government’s argument that requiring consumers to purchase health insurance or face a fine is constitutional, including Justice Anthony Kennedy, the possible swing vote on the court.

Kennedy argued the court has a “very heavy burden of justification” for requiring that people purchase insurance, according to a report in the Wall Street Journal.

Kennedy also said the mandate would change the relationship between the government and individuals in a “fundamental way,” according to the Journal.

The questioning was enough for Jeffrey Toobin, a legal analyst and staff writer for The New Yorker, to predict that the healthcare law appeared likely to be struck down.

“This law looks like it’s going to be struck down,” Toobin said Tuesday on CNN.”I think this law is in grave, grave trouble.”

Danube of Thought

Concur 100%, NK.


Tom Ayres, Bill Ayres, and Obama's plan out smart Waxman-Markey's defeat?

From three years ago:

Was this only about money?


...out smarts...


I have consulted with my oracle, the Magic 8-Ball. It says----hang on----"Reply hazy, try again."

There you have it.


All-- here is the link to the audio/transcript of today's argument

Jim Ryan

Mandate upheld 7-2, Kennedy and Thomas dissenting.

You don't have to predict the ruling on severability if you predict the mandate will be upheld (correct?), but how about this: in that case, you have to predict who dissents.


At this point do we even have evidence that the police acted inappropriately?

They get a 911 call about suspicious activity and respond. When they get there they find the guy who called them with a swollen lip, broken nose and lacerated scalp. The guy he called about is dead and he admits shooting him claiming he was attacked.

A quick investigation is going to show corroborating evidence in the form of the grass stains on his back, presumably blood on the concrete from his head, and then an eyewitness who saw him on the ground with a guy on top punching him while he screamed for help.

At this point, what is left? Sure, Zimmerman could have called them before deliberately stalking and killing a kid for his own sick amusement, but it isn't likely and it would never be proven given the eyewitness testimony. Letting him go seems like the only option. For this the police chief loses his job?

Jane (Where is Jon Corzine?)

I'm wondering what the Gov's response was to Kennedy's last question about whether why health care law was an extra special law.



SKITTLES MARTIN looks like Obama's son.

Danube of Thought

Yeah JimR--if the mandate is upheld, severability is moot.

Danube of Thought

"There would be no reason for Zimmerman to 'take the stand' if he is not charged because he was defending himself,"

For sure. My only point is that if he is in fact charged and goes to trial, if he pleads self-defense I don't think he has to take the stand.


On the record: Obamacare will stand. kennedy's shredding of the SG today was just cover. He will write the majority opinion upholding the law. Ruthy said it best: when you choose not to participate in commerce (insurance) you affect everybody else. Yo: I wish it was different but I can't help that robed tyrants found that grwoing a little wheat affected the entire nation 70 years ago.

Jack is Back!

Isn't the history of the Commerce Clause a 150 year slippery slope already? This idea that if you allow Congress to mandate health insurance coverage will only embolden them to make you have to eat broccoli or buy gym memberships or electric cars won't ocurr because of this mandate being upheld. They will try to do that kind of stuff anyway regardless of this law's constitutionality. They can't help themselves. It is their being, their character and their soul.

The are called legilsators not reformers, de-regulators, or miinimalists. They will legislate and most of their legislation will faovr this intrerest or that interest or take away from this interest or that interest. These laws will become 3,000 page regulations that require untold number of federales to enforce or administer.

Until Congress stops itself we are at the mercy of more of this whether it be Republican, Democrat, Libertarian or Whig.


Q: ...You said that Obama was introduced to you at Occidental as a Marxist because you were one at that point.

A: Yeah, that's embarrassing, but I had studied Marxist Economics at Sussex College in England. I had a junior year scholarship over there, and did my senior honor's thesis on Marxist Economics when I was at Occidental College. And I actually founded the Democrat Student Socialists' Alliance, under a different name, in 1976... it was as Marxist as you could get, but they come up with a more general name while I was away in England.

Q: ...John, you had told me before, and I'm reading from my book, that "Obama was already an ardent Marxist in the fall of 1980 when I met him. I know it's incendiary to say this, but although he said in Dreams From My Father that he'd 'hung out with Marxist professors', he did not explain in that book or clarify is that he was 100% in total agreement with those professors.

A: Yeah, you've got that exactly right. Obama believed, at the time I met him, this was probably around Christmas time in 1980. I'd flown out on Christmas break from Cornell, where I was in grad school. And Obama was looking forward to an imminent social revolution, literally a movement where the working classes would overthrow the ruling class and institute a kind of socialist Utopia in the United States. I mean, that's how extreme his views were his sophomore year of college.

Thomas Collins

Gus, my only question is on your number 7. Are there any reports with credible evidence indicating that Zimmerman and Martin had words? I suppose they could have, but it's quite possible, I think, that Martin simply attacked Zimmerman. Anything out there on this aspect of the events?

Jack is Back!


I have no idea not being a lawyer or even someone who follows the ajudication process. But if I had to bet, I will bet for the government and the full law being upheld. And if it is it will cost Obama the election because then the only way to block implementation by 2014 is to do a full repeal or renovation of the law by Congress.

This is all based on the fact that I slept in my own bed last night and had a couple of cups of coffee this morning.

Jim Ryan

Thanks, DoT.


Goodness, that old decision about the farmer growing his wheat for his own use affecting commerce is so backasswards, it blows my conservative mind. Just think of all of the people all over this nation growing zucchini, tomatoes, and strawberries without the government's approval.

This government has grown too big and the SCOTUS has grown too liberal.


I wish it was different but I can't help that robed tyrants found that grwoing a little wheat affected the entire nation 70 years ago.

There is still a huge leap from limiting activity to mandating inactivity. Limiting regulation to activity puts some boundary on what the government can do. If you allow them to mandate activity, there is really no limit.


Thank you Thomas. As to #7, according to what Zimmerman told Police.
##The two exchanged words, according to his account, then Trayvon punched him in the nose, sending him to the ground##

There is nothing that would indicate this isn't accurate. I can't see any reason why Zimmerman might lie about the "Having words" part of the story. In fact, it doens't make Zimmerman look better, it merely gives a feasible explanation as to why Skittles Martin punched him.

Danube of Thought

Attaboy, Spike:

"Filmmaker Spike Lee tweeted the wrong home address for George Zimmerman, the Sanford, Fla., man who many are claiming should be arrested for shooting and killing Trayvon Martin. The tweet could have potentially put the woman who actually lives at that address in danger.

"The Washington Times’ Kerry Picket went to the address that Lee tweeted as members of the New Black Panther Party were offering a $10,000 cash reward for Zimmerman’s capture, 'dead or alive,' and others were demanding his arrest.

“'[T]he Edgewater Circle address Mr. Lee re-tweeted out is not part of the gated Retreat at Twin Lakes where the shooting took place and where Mr. Zimmerman lives,' Picket reported. 'The area is not even a gated a community.'"


Sorry, that should be "mandating activity."


Rush just reported that the bounty has been raised by the NBPP to $1,000,000.

Thomas Collins

Oh, I agree, Gus, that there is no reason Zimmerman would have lied about that. I had just missed that part. Thanks for the clarification.


Which may leave us with a trial with *zero* witnesses to the outset of the fight between Zimmerman and Martin.

I respectfully disagree with our esteemed host. "Nick" and others have been popping up here with all the facts about the case so they must have witnessed the crime. Whitey Zimmerman must hang. Verdict first, trial later.

Thomas Collins

Raised to $1,000,000? It looks as if the New Black Panther Party has declared a racial fatwa on Zimmerman. I look forward to a thorough investigation by the Holder DOJ not only of the New Black Panther Party, but also of the circumstances of the raising of the $1,000,000.


Here be cannibals.


Thomas, did the REALLY REALLY NEW AND IMPROVED BLACK PANTY PARTY get the $1,000,000.00 from Obama's stash, or did they claim to have a new SOLAR PANEL COMPANY.


the circumstances of the raising of the $1,000,000.

In a previous thread there was a link stating that prominent black celebrities and athletes were sending donations to the NBPP. If specifically for this undertaking, would they not be culpable as well?


Zimmerman will likely not get arrested, detained in custody, charged, or prosecuted. I base this statement on the following Florida Statues:

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—

A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —

The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.


$1,000,000? Sounds like the work of the 1 percenters.



Kind of hard to retreat when you are on the ground bleeding froma broken nose and having your skull smashed into the sidewalk.

Just some food for thought.

Dave (in MA)

TC, he's gonna get right on that after he's finished up the investigation of the NBPP polling place shenanigans in Philly during '08.


George Michael Zimmerman, born Oct. 5, 1983, Voter ID #107862946, registered as a Democrat in Seminole County, Fla., in August 2002, according to state voter registration documents.


I think this is it,

Dave (in MA)

The skinny little African American couldn't possibly have gotten the upper hand in a physical confrontation with the Zimmer man.


I think Daniel Freedman was much too gentle in the Journal;


OK I changed my mind-- TomM and others here were right. A racial organization that wears military uniforms puts a BOUNTY on people to have them kidnapped -- this is a national scandal. The FBI and DHS has to label this a terrorist group and put them under surveillance. ThePOTUS has to condemn this-- instead we get ....


Oh dear NK. Do you think that Eric Holder would start and investigation of "HIS PEOPLE"?

You know what is really scary and really twisted. Our Fast and Furious Attorney General, Eric Holder, actually used those words..."My people" vis a vis criminal actions regarding THE GROOVY NEW BLACK PANTY PARTY.

Rick Ballard

SC predictions?

I'll take Kennedy, Breyer and Ginsberg in the dead pool with President Romney naming their replacements.

He will do so after having signed the BOzocare Repeal Act that will come to his desk after 3 Democrat Senators, fearing the outcome of the '14 elections, provide the 59th, 60th and 61st votes for cloture.

The three geriatric wobblers on the Court will toss in the towel after the signing of the bill.

I will make no predictions whatsoever concerning the conservative bona fides of the Romney nominees. In boca lupo.

Dave (in MA)
I wonder if there were any Skittles left?


If a thug is trying to kill you (repeatedly smashing your head against the concrete) and tries to get your gun, the only reasonable conclusion to draw is that the thug will shoot you if he gets control of that gun. You have every right to shoot him under those circumstances.


George Michael Zimmerman, born Oct. 5, 1983, Voter ID #107862946, registered as a Democrat in Seminole County, Fla., in August 2002, according to state voter registration documents.

I have a feeling that might change after this experience.



Sounds like the New Black Panther guy who announced the bounty is going where he belongs, though, unfortunately, on other charges. See LUN.


PaulL. If someone is smashing your head into the concrete, it matters not if you allow him to get your gun. If you do not protect yourself with it, he may render the gun moot.

Rick Ballard

That should be "In bocca lupo.". My Italian is rusty.


OMG-- even the Left-Wing SPLC admits the NBPP is a rascist hate group advocating violence. Where is the AG and DHS? What if Gus is right? I refuse to believe that, but every hour that goes by without the AG defending the rights of all citizens against organized racial violence and 'bounties'-- well it looks real bad.


NK, when the GROOVY NEW BLACK PANTY PARTY menaced the populace at Philadelphia POLLING SITES, Holder refused to prosecute, saying HIS PEOPLE had been treated poorly in the past. Thereby justifying the NEW BLACK PANTY PARTY.

What DO Y0U, think Holders' feelings on this are???
This shit is exactly what happens when you vote in a guy like Obama.


Gus, why is "do you" in caps?


--I want SCOTUS mandate prediction votes on record ....--

Loses 5-4, possibly 6-3.
I would give a slight edge to the mandate being found severable except that the feds seem to be the party arguing most strenuously it is not severable, so the SCOTUS would have to rule against essentially both parties to find it severable.
Suspect they'll punt on severability and say it's up to congress and the pres to figure out whether it will work without a mandate.


Gus-- 'DO YOU'- MY answer I KNOW Holder is a race greivance monger and Lefty. Do I think he's so hostile to white people that he won't do his duty, NO I don't believe that. But the longer this goes on.... I am open to the suggestion.


I guess that's emphasis TK.




did they actually have the bag of skittles and iced tea?

If the skit doesn't fit, you must acquit!


And here I was starting to think I couldn't possibly hate the press more than I have in the past. Silly me.


I vote with Ig and Rick on the Obamacare case. If the court says it's severable, I see the House voting to repeal, and if enough Dems in the Senate find themselves vulnerable, they will go along with that.]If any affirmative action is taken, it might be along the lines of a national insurance plan that individusals can buy into that only covers major medical and amending the ER free loaders gie away act.


if you want to hate the press even more, how about the way they covered up Obama's incredible incompetent open-mic slip in Seoul.

This is much more serious than they let on. My thoughts LUN.


I should think that contributors to the bounty might well be deemed culpable along with the NBPP. Holder's inaction at this point is a terrible indictment of him.

Rick Ballard


Gas increased another .05 this week, to $3.92. Gallup has unemployment at 8.5% today, down slightly over the past two weeks. Housing values have dropped again. They are now at 2002 levels. The first quarter ends this week and the consensus is looking for a sub 2% growth reading when the books are closed.

Fortunately, inflation continues to outpace wage growth so those fortunate enough to still have jobs should be leading healthier lives due to having to work more hours in order to remain on an even keel.

Danube of Thought

OK. i'll go with the mandate upheld 6-3; Thomas, Scalia and Alito dissenting.

Jack is Back!


Crude was up .34 yesterday. And what happened yesterday, you say? The Bamster gave another energy speech emphasizing that we won't get new oil from drilling for a decade or more.

Can we now officially declare an Obama Effect much like how it gets cold as hell everytime Al Gore opens his mouth or is in town?


Mandate struck down, bill not severable, Wickard overturned, Jets win Superbowl.


$3.92. Man, what I would give to pay $3.92 for gas. Here in Chicago, we're paying over $4.60.

Just developing our own energy resources would turn this economy and trade deficit around in no time.


how exactly is Vlad squeezing Obama's "space"

after I heard the comments I thought who they hay is Obama's boss


--Mandate struck down, bill not severable, Wickard overturned,Jets win Superbowl--

Hmm, if those last two, especially the last one, are being deemed as equally likely as the first two I may have to reconsider my 3:27.


NK. Holder did NOT do his job when the BLACK PANTY LOSERS were brandishing BILLY CLUBS at Philadelphia Polls. And as I state before, Holder made reference to HIS PEOPLE being mistreated worse in the past as his excuse. Holder sold a Marc Rich his pardon during the Clinton Admin.

He is a criminal.

Jack is Back!

Whoa! Crazy JetBlue Pilot this Time

Says they had to restrain him in mid-flight because he was agitated and yelling about a bomb. New York to Las Vegas flight on JetBlue.


Does anyone know if the software geniuses who program Romney will use that Korean trip open mic gaffe against Il Douche as a campaign issue?


Gus-- I agree that Holder is a corrupt political hack and Leftwinger. But I thought the question was whether he's a racialist that will cover up black crimes against other racial groups? I don't think that.. do you?


The great and brilliant Hilton Kramer of The New Criterion has passed away at 84.


--But I thought the question was whether he's a racialist that will cover up black crimes against other racial groups? I don't think that.. do you?--

Isn't that precisely what he did when he let his "civil rights" branch dismiss a case that had already been won against the NBPP?


Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that, Ignatz.

RIP Hilton Kramer. You have made a great difference, sir.


The New Black Panther Party? Six or seven guys in rented uniforms promising a million dollars they don't have, contributed by black athletes and celebrities who don't actually exist, all to get the right all riled up over nothing. The right should PAY the NBPP to exist just so they can continue fantasizing that the black man really is out to get them. When righer-wingers started forming militias and marching around in the woods after reading The Turner Diaries, it was both sad and funny. The NBPP is no different.


Ig-- Holder denies that, no pattern of discrimination, no evidence anyone actually deterred from voting, yadda yadda. This is different, a bounty has been put up to kidnap a citizen. What does the AG have to say about that?.... if he never publicly attacks New BPPs, well I guess he is a racialist as well as corrupt. We'll see.


This is different, a bounty has been put up to kidnap a citizen.

Worse than that - previously it was $10K, dead or alive. Now $1 million for capture.


ObamaCare in its entirety goes down 5-4.


The Media was whipped to a frenzy when single individual named david duke said far less inflamatory things. The then POTUS and AG made clear then that kooks making racialist statements are unAmerican, and everyone's equal protection is guaranteed. here the media and POTUS are acting 180 degrees differently. Those are the facts.

Jim Ryan

That's true, Ludic, but the bounty could easily get Zimmerman killed. All it takes is a dirtbag or two. McVeigh, for instance.


Porch- this is a national outrage-- the AG has to have a press confereence and say thugs in military uniforms can't offer a bounty to kidnap a citizen-- it won't be tolerated and the DOJ is monitoring, and if any actual kidnapping occurs everyone involved will be prosecuted.. including bounty donors. If Holder doesn't do that... well....

Tom Maguire

I hate to suggest a migration after people have gotten their Bold Predictions down, but I opened a new ObamaCare thread.


"When righer-wingers started forming militias and marching around in the woods after reading The Turner Diaries, it was both sad and funny. The NBPP is no different."

Oh really - I dare you to tell Malik Shabazz that his organization is sad and funny.

BTW - Their organization and support groups are thousands strong...


Back from the Hands Off My Healthcare rally. I'm not too good with crowd estimates but I'd say 2,500+ (I think I usually underestimate). The speakers were all good. Lots of people from New Jersey, Penn., & N. Carolina. Met some New Yorkers too. Michele Bachmann was really good....she "gets it" as far as how Obamacare will change our country & our freedoms. Took a taxi down there & the Metro problems at all (such a chicken!).


I agree NK. I just don't think Holder is going to do jack and neither is his boss.


If that happens, then Ig/Gus are right .. t'bam and Holder are stone cold racialists.


Good lord, Jim Ryan...finally a voice of reason on this site!

Hard to control psychopaths and/or dirtbag ideologues, left or right. I just sense that many on this thread want the NBPP to be more significant than they really are because it gives them a better straw-blackman to rail against. The logic seems to be thus:

Somebody shoots and kills Zimmerman for the bounty.

The shooter goes on TV and gets his over-sized cardboard check from the New Black Panther Party for one million dollars.

The shooter then deposits that check in his or her bank account.

Eric Holder, AG for the United States of America, applauds from the sidelines, glad that justice has been served.

President Obama gives the shooter a national holiday based on his heroic act of justice.

Even in my worst moments of despair during the Bush fiasco, I never in my life thought that any of them--Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld--were PURE EVIL. I'm just amazed at how many people on conservative sites really think Obama ran for President for the sole purpose of overthrowing all that is holy and good. I live in Chicago. I've been by his house many times. I assure you, he's a rather typical left-of-center upper middle-class professional. That's it. We might be able to have a more productive political process in this country if everyone didn't simply validate the worst paranoid theory they've just heard somewhere on the net (excluding you, JR, you seem reasonable).


Yep, the NBPP is such a figment of fevered wingnuts' imaginations, huh? Why some stupid winger must have photo-shopped those dudes in front of the polling station in Philly with the clubs and paramilitary gear. I'm sure you'd have no problem swanning into their front office proclaiming them frauds.


The smug commenter from ChiTown omits one fact-- the bounty has been out there for days, and no public objection from the AG, DHS or POTUS. The bounty is a national outrage-- what say our law enforcement officials? Silence here is dangerous. Let's see what Holder and 'Bam do .... or don't do. I am hopeful they will do what every POTUS since Eisenhower has done when a racialist group threatens domestic tranquility.


Let me see if this will show -
No, too big. Here is my sign.

and the other side.

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