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April 26, 2012

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Seasons in the Sun.

We were young, we were free.
=============

Jack is Back!

May she rest in peace and God bless her soul.

Both hers and the Owen beat down are irrelevant to the GZ case. But for a hate crime that has some relevancy, what about this one?

Cecil Turner

I'm still not sure what to think about this one. I doubt it'd meet even the Texas law for protection of property, and a "warning shot" excuse with a flat-shooting rifle is pretty hard to feature. There's also a question of whether the men in question were armed illegally (felons).

On the other side, the teens were involved in a classic burglary (a dwelling--if temporary--at night), which is inherently dangerous. And I've seen a couple comments that suggest they were armed as well. Troubling.

MarkO

The stars we could reach were just starfish on the beach.

Danube of Thought

I take it for what it is a great tragedy resulting from several people not behaving well.

Threadkiller

DoT is straight to the point. A horrible tragedy.

JiB:"May she rest in peace and God bless her soul."

Amen.


Extraneus

The hills that we climb were just seasons out of time.

Devil's Advocate

A series of burglaries.
Possible suspects watched, possibly pursued in one case, definately pusued in the other case. In one case the suspect who very well may have been doing nothing wrong until he started punching, is reviled on this forum.
The other decedent, who was at least a spectator at a burglary, is shot and killed
and has now become the inspiration for commenters quoting Jaques Brel.
What pray tell, makes the Alabama case so different for you all?

Lea

What pray tell, makes the Alabama case so different for you all?

The actual danger to the shooter, for one.

17 year olds do stupid things and sometimes they die for them. That is tragic to the families and to the lives they will never lead.

jimmyk

What I'm getting from all these stories is that every week there are incidents around the country, many involving unsupervised teenagers, where someone ends up dead. The press has a lot to choose from in order to push its agenda, but in the process is making itself a laughingstock to anyone who is reasonably knowledgeable about the world.

More important, know who your kids are hanging around with.

Ignatz

--What pray tell, makes the Alabama case so different for you all?--

I can't speak for anyone else but the fact that her killing was an illegal manslaughter at best, more probably a murder, as opposed to a justifiable case of self defense is the deciding factor.

--the suspect who very well may have been doing nothing wrong until he started punching--

Not to invoke Godwin's law or anything but that's seems a bit like saying to Poles that Hitler guy was just minding his own business until that whole Danzig corridor, blitzkrieg, obliteration of Warsaw thing.

Threadkiller

The Devil's Assgasket going deep.

Ignatz

--What I'm getting from all these stories is that every week there are incidents around the country, many involving unsupervised teenagers, where someone ends up dead.--

That's the really sad thing, jimmy. This crazy crap goes on all the time, so often you only hear about it if the race hustlers blow one of them into a national disgrace.

Devil's Advocate

One person meandering about.
one person participating a felony.
The person who was actually known to be
committing a crime is seen as a sympathetic figure here.

Look into your hearts people.

Devil's Advocate

Race Hustlers
White Hispanic
African American GZ

Get some new material people!

Gmax

KMA DA

Devil's Advocate

You too

Devil's Advocate

Not to invoke Godwin's law or anything but that's seems a bit like saying to Poles that Hitler guy was just minding his own business until that whole Danzig corridor, blitzkrieg, obliteration of Warsaw thing.


The Winter war might be a better analogy

Richard Aubrey

Killing somebody for a burglary is probably not a good idea.
But the iron laws of physics tell us that if you are not burgling, you will not be killed while burgling.
There are statistics which will allow one to find activities less dangerous, which, in conjunction with laws on the subject, will guide you to places where getting killed for whatever you are doing is a low probability.

Porchlight

The person who was actually known to be
committing a crime is seen as a sympathetic figure here.

Actually per the evidence we have, the only person *known* to be committing a crime was Trayvon Martin (assault and battery).

Danube of Thought

"until he started punching"

There's the rub.

Devil's Advocate

Porchlight,
Your sophistry is as piss poor as your wit.
BEFORE the shot was fired is somewhat important to the question.

Danube of Thought

The fact that George Zimmerman is every bit as African-American as Homer Plessy was is sheer torture for D.A.

AliceH

I object strenuously to this formulation: the suspect who very well may have been doing nothing wrong...

GZ said he saw someone "acting suspiciously", which is an entirely different thing than being alleged to be a "suspect" of actual wrongdoing. And I would seriously like to know how else would one describe the behavior of a pedestrian, unknown to the observer, in a gated residential community, in the rain, at night, who seemed to be neither coming FROM a residence heading somewhere, nor going TO a residence. That is not "wrong", and there can be plausible reasons for it, but it most definitely IS suspicious.


Devil's Advocate

actually before the confrontation is the important part of the question.
Danube,
Could you ya please let go of Homer?
I'd love to see your MMPI score.

Danube of Thought

"The person who was actually known to be
committing a crime is seen as a sympathetic figure here."

Very substantial and uncontroverted evidence indicates that Trayvon Martin was committing a crime when he was shot.

For my part, I consider Summer Moody, her shooter, George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin all to be tragic figures.

Danube of Thought

Why should I let go of Homer?

I'd gladly disclose my MMPI score if I had any idea what such a score is.

Jim Ryan

One person meandering about bouncing a man's head on the pavement like a basketball, a nasty little felony.

One person participating a felony seeing if she might could steal' some stuff with Skeeter 'n them, which is a felony.

FTFY

Not that I have much sympathy for Moody.

Devil's Advocate

Was TM committing a crime when Zimmie spotted him?

Danube of Thought

"actually before the confrontation is the important part of the question"

You need to read the law: the important part of the question is the first attack, and the evidence strongly suggests that Martin made it.

Ignatz

--One person meandering about.
one person participating a felony.
The person who was actually known to be
committing a crime is seen as a sympathetic figure here.

Look into your hearts people.--

She was apparently crouched in some bushes hiding so we don't know she was participating in a crime. If she was it was not one which allowed lethal force against her.
Trayvon Martin was most assuredly not meandering about when he was shot. All of the evidence indicates he was committing a violent felony against Zimmerman which did allow for lethal force to be applied to prevent its continuation.

Perhaps a look into your own heart that compels you to avoid looking at the plain evidence in both cases to try and score cheap political points off of these cases would be more helpful than making false and despicable assertions about others.

Devil's Advocate

Jim,
You know what I'm asking.
BEFORE the fight started was TM doing anything?
I don't know. I was not there. If I were him
I would have run home.

GMAX

Homer Plessy as in Plessy v Ferguson? The landmark case that ruled that separate but equal is inherently unequal?

So is Zimmerman now a white black Hispanic? WHOA this is getting complicated, maybe KK can explain it all to us...

Devil's Advocate

You guys know what I'm saying but you keep dancing around the question. Look, I think Zimmie should never have been charged.

Porchlight

BEFORE the shot was fired is somewhat important to the question.

Yes. Before the shot was fired, Travyon Martin was beating the crap out of George Zimmerman.

The evidence we have strongly suggests that Trayvon Martin was the first person, and possibly only person, to commit a crime on that night.

Porchlight

Look, I think Zimmie should never have been charged.

So you don't think he committed a crime? What are you talking about, then?

Danube of Thought

"BEFORE the fight started..."

Those nasty fights. They do have a pesky way of starting, don't they? Not much we can do to change that, but at least we have laws dealing with how they start and what response is allowed one that occurs.

GMAX

Oops should have checked wiki before just relying on memory of a history class once upon a time. Plessy v Ferguson was law until Brown v Board of Education declared separate but equal is inherently unequal. But we are talking about that Plessy right? Odd name so it has to be the guy. I must have missed the report, being all engrossed in the Rangers start to the season and all!

Ignatz

--You guys know what I'm saying but you keep dancing around the question.--

It's because the question is beneath contempt.

MarkO

Face the facts. George Zimmerman would have had to ride in the colored section of the bus. He's as black as one of the landmark men of the racial history of the USA.

narciso

You see why I have disdain for Justices Fuller and co, other rulings


In 1892, the Citizens' Committee asked Plessy to agree to violate Louisiana's Separate Car law that required the segregation of passenger trains by race. On June 7, 1892, Plessy, then thirty years old and resembling in skin color and physical features a white male, bought a first-class ticket on the East Louisiana Railroad running between New Orleans and Covington, the seat of now suburban St. Tammany Parish. He sat in the "whites-only" passenger car. When the conductor came to collect his ticket, Plessy told him that he was 7/8 white and that he refused to sit in the "blacks-only" car. Plessy was immediately arrested by Detective Chris C. Cain, put into the Orleans Parish jail, and released the next day on a $500 bond.

Plessy's case was heard before Judge John Howard Ferguson one month after his arrest. Tourgée argued that Plessy's civil rights, as granted by the Thirteenth and Fourteenth amendments of the U.S. Constitution, had been violated. Ferguson denied this argument and ruled that Louisiana, under state law, had the power to set rules that regulated railroad business within its borders.

Devil's Advocate

Plessy's appearance was very important to the whole story. It was BECAUSE he could pass that he was chosen to sit in the whites only car. The conductor only knew Homer was a creole of color because Plessy told him.
You guys seem so interested in this ancestry business. Google MORRIS MORRIS AKA the actor Lewis Morrison. He was the Grandfather of Movie stars Joan and Constance Bennett and the Great Grandfather of Talk show host Morton Downey Jr. Before the Civil war Morrison joined a creole of color militia unit which volunteered its service to the confederacy but the confederacy turned them down. Most then joined the Union army. Morrison later decided to pass and become an actor.In appearance he looked caucasion. His ancestry
was mostly Jewish. In old N'awlins he was a Creole of color, a person of mixed ancestry.
http://www.blackpast.org/files/blackpast_images/Morris_W__Morris-.jpg

Devil's Advocate

The one drop rule.

Danube of Thought

Under that rule, Zimmerman is as African-American as Trayvon Martin.

jimmyk

Plessy's appearance was very important to the whole story.

Well it seems that George Zimmerman's appearance is very important to this story too, because it's the reason the media jumped on the story as being about a "white" man killing a black teenager for "walking while black." Had GZ's appearance been more indicative of his racial background, the whole story might never have been more than a local p. 7 item. Now the MSM has egg on its face once again, though not primarily because of GZ's racial background but because of the fact that it increasingly appears he was the victim rather than the perpetrator.

Devil's Advocate

The mixed Creoles of color were almost considered a third ethnic group.

xbradtc

Under that rule, Zimmerman is as African-American as Trayvon Martin.

Can we finally address the scourge of black on black violence that claims so many lives?

peter

OT, Dreams "as it has evolved" at the LUN, meaning, "I punted and gave it to Ayers to ghostwrite."

Extraneus

Under that rule, Zimmerman is as African-American as Trayvon Martin.

Yes, but was he aggrieved?

xbradtc

BenF, yes, I was snarking.

OTOH, I really AM appalled at the levels of black on black violence, and have absolutely no idea what would be a workable solution to that problem.

NK

BenF -- black crime victims? when it comes to helping black crime victims, as far as the Left is concerned it's all snark, actually more like vicious lies. Go back and read John Tierney's Big City columns in the NYT (yes that NYT) in the 90s about Giuliani's crime fighting, subway clean up and homeless scattering, and how that benefitted the poor and the black and hispanic working class people in NYC, but rich white liberals (you know the type) constantly attacked Rudy for it. Tierney slammed the Libs for their hypocrisy, asking why a single mom in East Harlem had to put up with vagrants and drugs on her front steps when Rosie and Hillary had Tierney removed by cops when he dressed like a vagrant and got too close to their gates. Rudy had the temerity to say crime is crime and the criminals are getting locked up. Rudy didn't give a rat's ass about the genetic make up of criminals, he refused to let criminals destroy this City, and the greatest beneficiaries of a safe NYC are the working class, especially working class blacks and hispanics. Crime is crime, reducing crime helps all victims, who BTW are disproportionately poor and black. What does the Left have against poor black people?

Andrew Krause

A few flags up for the details of this story. The details are from the lawyer of one of the three campers and not the police. The others have not spoken to the public yet. The gun that fired the fatal shot also has not been identified to the public. Moody was struck "when warning shots were fired" does not necessarily mean by the campers. Lets wait for the police report.

Theo

Ben --

Or maybe just take some responsibility for their situation and their future....

GMAX

The level of condescension in that post is frankly beyond appalling! You call yourself a liberal? Do your sheets come customed fitted with eyeholes?

Stephanie

OMG you gotta check out Drudge and the caption and pic of Biden. I don't have screencapture on this device, but a quick grab and post would be snort worthy.

Theo

Steph --

Just how does VPOTUS know this? Shouldn't this information (for those who want it) come from FLOTUS?

TMI in any event....

Theo

NK --

But for the Bens of the world, poor people are just perpetual victims and the only way to help them is to hire grad students (with hard working taxpayer money) to administer services to them.

I was once poor and am now a hard working tax payer type. This was not the result of government programs.

daddy

So if Obama had a son would he look like George Zimmerman?

Rick Ballard

NK,

Please stop picking on Professor Dana Ward of Pitzer College. Isn't it enough that no one signs up for a guaranteed 'A' for his pathetic seminars? You cannot equal the contempt in which he is held by other faculty members and the student body which refers to him as "Professor Dung Beetle" due to his continuing to roll his Marxist ball of crap around campus after forty years of failure. Shouldn't his complete and abject failure as a credentialed moron be sufficient degradation?

lyle

Shouldn't his complete and abject failure as a credentialed moron be sufficient degradation?

It should be but Ben's type have polished their insufferablity to a high sheen.

NK

RickB-- what can I say I believe in trying to stamp out ignorance and in redemption. Character flaws.

Theo

NK --

Good sentiments of course, but as Reagan says it's not that liberals are ignorant, it's that such so much of what they know is wrong.

(Note the correct spelling of "it's" -- twice.)

Redemption is a whole other topic....We could all use a shot of that...

Porchlight

No FREEEEEE Market homilies? 'Cuz these folks wouldn't know what to do with fresh produce, right?

If said items sold briskly and turned a profit, don't you think stores would be lining up to sell them?

Are stores obligated to lose money in order to provide "access" to certain items?

If the sad fact is that liquor is a more popular and profitable source of retail revenue in the inner city than fresh produce, I hardly see how that is the fault of grocery stores.

daddy

MayBee asks the important question over at Althouse:


"MayBee said...
How are the school kids going to work in Michelle Obama's garden if it's illegal to do farm work?"

Ha!

Captain Hate

NK, I've been reading some positive stories about Newark recently. Is that the MFM polishing a turd or is there anything to it?

Theo

Porch --

You just do not get it. Why if you allow people the freedom to sell things that people want to buy and to make a profit then everybody -- both buyers and sellers -- will get what they want. We simply cannot have that. No, we should require sellers to lose money trying to sell to buyers things that they do not want. That way it will be good for everyone, whether they like it or not.

Theo

Ben --

What difference does it make WHY liquor stores are more popular? Whatever the reason, Porchlight is right -- it's not the fault of the grocery stores.

Ignatz

--And.....why is it liquor stores are more popular? Take a stab, at it.--

Cause you can't get drunk on Cheerios?

And because drunks tend to be overrepresented amongst the poor. Has a way of interfering with gainful employment.

Ben Franklin

Sorry my diaper is leaking. BRB, as soon as mom can do my laundry.

xbradtc

And yet you are still here? Once again, you've proven yourself wrong.

jimmyk

It should be noted that in many instances "activists" (many of whom are white middle-class middle-aged academic types) have successfully kept stores like Walmart out of urban neighborhoods where they are sorely needed.

narciso

Yep, she's 'mostly harmless,' but I think with everything else, that Sarnoff's flagship
has gone so far down, it's a big meh.

Ranger

So if Obama had a son would he look like George Zimmerman?

Posted by: daddy | April 26, 2012 at 01:09 PM

Well, if Obama hadn't broken up with the white girlfriend he loved because he felt he was "losing his blackness", then yes.

narciso

Treacher';s having a little too much with the twits on twitter, on the sidebar;


http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/24/and-now-its-time-to-play-how-deep-did-they-bury-the-lede/

Theo

Ben --

So what is your "POV?" Why are liquor stores more popular than grocery stores in poor neighborhoods?

Danube of Thought

He loves to derogate the free market, but never, ever discloses how he thinks its freedoms should be curtailed, nor by whom.

Beyond the scope of the anarchy course.

NK

CaptH-- Newark? all fair minded people like Mayor Corey Booker and hope he succeeds, so he gets alot of supportive pub. I acknowledge Newark is less worse than doomed older cities like the ones you see in eastern Ohio and SW Pa. Newark kept Pru and there is some vibrant immigrant entrepreneurism, but the one party and muni union rule is choking off any real change.

AliceH

Perhaps I missed the citation establishing that liquor stores ARE more popular than grocery stores in poor neighborhoods? I don't dispute it - I just don't KNOW it to be true.

FTR, I live in a poor neighborhood - actually a poor county. (Aside - It's funny how some of the most beautiful parts of the country are economically depressed.) We do have gas stations that also sell liquor, but no liquor stores. No idea how to assess the relative "popularity" thereof.

daddy

FOXman, errr Tm's being funny over at the Animal thread:) LOL.

Danube of Thought

Althouse:

"This overeagerness to impose a racial template onto an incompletely understood news story... it can get you into trouble. It is itself racial stereotyping, and restraint is the better course of action.

"Ironically, anti-Zimmermania featured attacks on him for (suppposedly) shooting impulsively because of race, but the attacks on him were themselves shooting impulsively because of race."

daddy

Finally catch up and see what this thread is about. Ughh. So sorry young lady.

Danube of Thought

Classical Values:

"That sound you hear is the press frantically trying to figure out how to update their ethnic style guides — is Zimmerman now a 'black white Hispanic?' Or do we use the Obama standard (ever heard our historic POTUS called a 'white black?' no you have not), in which case I guess Zimmerman is just… black."

Remember Homer Plessy.

Theo

DoT --

Althouse scores again....

The sensible people here just wanted to know the facts, whatever they were. The press just wanted the facts to fit the narrative.

A great slogan for a newspaper: "All the news that fits our narrative."

Frau Regenschirm

"Well, if Obama hadn't broken up with the white girlfriend he loved because he felt he was "losing his blackness", then yes."

Ranger, do you mean the one he *lived with* in Chicago until he left for Harvard or the fictional one Ayers provided for Obama's Columbia period?

Theo

Slightly off topic, but DoT's repeated references to Homer Plessy and his case before the Supreme Court are a reminder of how "interstate commerce" has changed since the 1890s. The State of Louisiana argued that it had the right to regulate as it wished train travel between points within Louisiana without federal law applying. The only issue was whether the 14th Amendment, not the Commerce Clause, gave Congress the right to legislate otherwise.

NK

For what ever reason, I don't think 'Bam had a 'girlfriend' of any race; Moosehelle and the daughters? Turkey Baster.

daddy

DoT,

I see that Soledad O'Brian's mom is Afro-Cuban, while I think that George Zimmerman's mom is afro-Peruvian. (tho it might be his grandmom).

Anybody have a ruling on which one is more authentically black?

Hard to tell from photos:

Soledad

George Zimmerman

From Soledad's CNN page I learned this:

"My ethnic roots are relevant when you look at the broader picture of who brings us the news. Who you are matters oh so very much when, according to the National Association of Hispanic Journalists (NAHJ), just 6 percent of the people working in TV news and 4 percent of the newspaper reporters in this country are Latinos."

Unlike George Zimmerman, Soledad does not speak Spanish.

Theo

NK --

Just how do you know that?

NK

Theo-- It's been years since I read Plessy, but my recollection is pretty clear that was a La. STATE separate racial public facilities statute enacted under state police power, and there was no federal statute involved. So there was NO commerce clause issue involved, just the 13th/14th amendment question of whether Plessy was denied equal protection under La. law. SCOTUS upheld the La. "Jim Crow" separation law-- Brown v Bd of Ed overruled 60 years later.

NK

Unmitigated speculation... no basis in fact..but still the circumstantial clues..... nah.. can't be...

Theo

NK --

I assume that you are right. My point was not as clearly stated as it should have been. There is no question however that the reach of the commerce clause has greatly expanded since 1896, which is relevant to Obamacare issue.

For example, it is widely believed that the SCOTUS found a "baseball exemption" to the antitrust laws, but a closer reading of the case demonstrates that what SCOTUS really held was that MLB was not engaged in "interstate commerce" and thus not subject to the Sherman Act.

Technical and outdated stuff, but fun nonetheless.

Danube of Thought

It is my understanding that One of GZ's great-grandfaters was Of African descent, making GZ an octoroon.

But since the demise of Adolf Eichmann the only remaining custodians of such exquisitely nuanced racial classifications and distinctions are American Democrats, so perhaps some of them will enlighten us once they recover from their current shell-shock.

Clarice

Yes, ethnicity is very important in news reports, says Soledad, who without Affirmative action might have made it thru community college and gone on to a position in one of those big box outfits.

jimmyk

Anybody have a ruling on which one is more authentically black?

I don't know about that, but I know which one is more authentically dumb.

Dave (in MA)

Strange that this hasn't achieved the usual notoriety given to Pretty Blonde Female stories.

Clarice

I wish MayBee would return. I really adore her.

AliceH

I know how you mean that, Clarice, but I wish there were a way to say 'underqualified but credentialed' than to pick on community colleges or employees at big box stores - both of which are absolutely legitimate and useful things.

Ignatz

--but I wish there were a way to say 'underqualified but credentialed' than to pick on community colleges or employees at big box stores--

Alice,
"Credentialed morons" has served that very purpose here ever since I believe Mr. Ballard coined it.
As always I gladly subject my comments to correction.

Extraneus

(ever heard our historic POTUS called a 'white black?' no you have not)

I enjoy calling him half-black, myself. I don't know why, it's just fun. If he only got half-scholarships and accepted into a half-prestigious college and law school, and was named half-president of the Law Review, it still wouldn't be fair, since he wasn't descended from American slaves. Yet, he received all the trappings of AA and more, even though he's just as white as he is black.

Imagine if Obama announced in his inaugural speech something along the lines of "This racial classification garbage has to stop. During my administration, there will be no racial preferences of any kind in the Executive branch." He coulda' been King, instead of a bum, which is what he is, let's face it.

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