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April 23, 2012

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Rob Crawford

Gun controllers don't have sporting rifles on their rader.

The hell they don't.

Rob Crawford

Using deadly force in response to people running away - I can't wait to hear what self-defense doctrine applies there.

There isn't one. The shooters were never under any threat, by their own admission. Further, they fired without knowing who or what was down-range.

They should be facing assault with a deadly weapon charges; manslaughter if the girl doesn't survive.

Captain Hate

the rigors of social science

That's setting the bar on the ground.

Danube of Thought

If the shooters' account is accurate, it's reckless endangerment or involuntary manslaughter at least.

Never heard of a .17 caliber.

bgates

Their race is not mentioned, but I am guessing white

Googling "Larry Dean Duncan" got me to a local Fox story about the shooting that had a mug shot of a late-30s white guy. I'd be more confident in it if they had bothered to label it with any descriptive text, though.

FRONT TOWARD LEFT

Never heard of a .17 caliber.

Varminting caliber. It shoots flatter than .22 lr.

Oh, and Rob Crawford +1. Firing warning shots to warn people is a great way to find yourself in a world of hurt. The [pretty much valid] theory is that firing a weapon is a use of deadly force, and that firing a warning shot indicates that the shooter was not in sufficient fear for his life or well being to employ deadly force.

Rob Crawford

DoT -- .17 caliber is relative new. LUN

Have Blue

Is the .22 rifle of the Ruger .22 long rifle variety or the Colt .223 variety?

Cecil Turner

Not sure what they were thinking, but an outdoor shooting to protect property is a well-established no no. Actually looks to me like murder (if she dies):

(2) Under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to human life, he or she recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to a person other than himself or herself, and thereby causes the death of another person.
Never heard of a .17 caliber.

It's a very accurate flat-shooting little varminter. (Which kinda blows the "warning shot" claim.)

Have Blue

DoT - IIRC (have been meaning to look into one) a .17 caliber is a rimfire cartridge which is essentially a .22 caliber knecked down to .17 caliber, which is a common caliber for air rifles. If the powder charge was more or less the same the velocity would be higher and the reulting trajectory flatter.

Tom Maguire
That's setting the bar on the ground.

I couldn't find a shallow trench...

Danube of Thought

I've never heard of a .223 being described as a .22. but you never know what to expect from the media. Generally they divide all rifles into two categories: .22 and "high-powered."

Rob Crawford

Not sure what they were thinking, but an outdoor shooting to protect property is a well-established no no

Depends on the state. I believe it's OK in Texas.

NK

RobC-- pretty much sums up the crimes these men committed (if the story is correct). What's taking the police/prosecutor so long?

Cecil Turner

There are varieties of .22 (e.g., magnum or K-hornet) that are pretty hot. But calling a .223 a .22 would be journalistic malpractice.

Cecil Turner

Depends on the state. I believe it's OK in Texas.

Really? Sounds pretty extreme, even for Texans.

NK

RobC-- in Texas you can use deadly force to protect someone else's property, while NOT EVEN on your own property? Someone needs to look that up-- a couple of weeks ago, TomM linked to the Texas man who confronted burglars in his neighbor's house. I beleive he stayed on his own property and shotgunned them as they encroached on to his own property. I am very OK with that -- but blasting away on navigable water to protect someone else's property? I don't think so.

Clarice

Failure to appear should certainly affect bond.TM

Rob Crawford

What's taking the police/prosecutor so long?

Probably waiting for your input.

Cecil Turner

I'll be darned. There are a few other requirements, but basically true:

Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and(3) he reasonably believes that:(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.
Probably waiting for your input.

I wonder if they're sure which rifle did the damage.

Threadkiller

With a spotlight they still thought it was a group of men? If they were actually far enough away to not determine what they were shooting at and the targets were scattering, this would be a Hell of a shot from a boat.

The boyfriend may have tried to return fire and shot his girlfriend. Why did he stay at the dock?

Rob Crawford

The boyfriend may have tried to return fire and shot his girlfriend.

Except the shooters don't mention shots from the other group.

Threadkiller

I read that wrong. I thought they were in the boat when the shot was made.

Jim Ryan

It looks like everyone involved was Slightly Screwed Up, a condition which can have sudden and unpredictable consequences such as manslaughter of another or one's own untimely death. Your spidey sense isn't being anal retentive when it tells you to keep away from someone who is Slightly Screwed Up. Teach this to your kids.

NK

Well that Texas Penal Code does have conditions on the use of deadly force that probably don't apply to the Alabama shooters, what exactly does the property "can't be protected by any other means" apply to? someone's stealling your horse and riding off with it? Anyway, they value property in Texas I guess. RobC-- given Texas' expansive views of self defense and gun ownership-- how come you haven't decamped Cincinnati and headed to the Loan Star State?

Cecil Turner

The other group was armed? In the commission of a burglary? This may not be as cut-and-dried as I thought.

Threadkiller

True Rob, but the lawyer is doing all the talking. Just wild speculation on my part, anyways.

Rob Crawford

how come you haven't decamped Cincinnati and headed to the Loan Star State?

Because most of my relatives are here, I have a decent job, and I grew up in the area.

NK

RobC- it was a rhetorical question. Enjoy the shooting opportunities in the Buckeye State. Hopefully, those Ct. firearms makers Ruger and Colt have treated you well.

Vermin are squirmin'.

Heh, DoT's not 'Little Game Hunter'.
==============

Rob Crawford

Fuck if I know, "Devil's Advocate", why don't you tell us?

Oh, wait, I get it -- raaaaacism, right?

Threadkiller

From the link:

"Dassinger[lawyer for one of the campers] said the men know which of them fired the shot that hit Summer, though that information has not been disclosed."

So much for my stupidity.

Tom Maguire

I posted an update with a bit of the Alabama Self-defense statutes. They may look like Texas, in that there is a property defense clause. In other words, "self-defense" really means "self, or property, or a neighbor's property". Not how I would write the law, maybe...

Danube of Thought

I saw all the biased MSNBC et al reports too so don't bring them up.

Why not?

Danube of Thought

who probably wasn't doin anything but dawdling

Nothing except busting a guy's nose and smashing his head into the pavement.

NK

TomM-- ai yai yai. Notice the words in the statute.-- as you point out, this is "Defense of a Person' provision, and moreover, the breakin has to be unlawful AND forceful-- so the implication is that the 'dwelling or residence' forcefully broken into was occupied and you're defending the persons therein. THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO PROTECTING A COMMERCIAL ESTABLISHMENT. BUT WAIT, the next clause has the explicit 'occupied' vehicle, a carjacking. But occupied is NOT expressly in the clause relating to "dwelling or residence". So does that mean you can use deadly force in the case of a 'forceful' break in of a VACANT residence? any case law interpreting this?

Rob Crawford

DA -- you have no idea where I've lived or who I've run into over the course of my life. When I was a kid, we visited my grandparents' house in Cincinnati's Over-the-Rhine. The town I grew up in? The police chief was arrested and the police force disbanded for drug trafficking.

And you have no idea what a bigot you are.

jimmyk

Devil's advocate, I've had plenty of contact with "urban Negroes" growing up in inner city Detroit, including having a knife pulled, a gun waved, and being on the receiving end of a Trayvon-style sucker punch to the jaw. Nonetheless, my discussions here, as well as those of everyone else here except the trolls bubu, duda, and kk, and now, it would seem, you, have been focused on the law, facts, and evidence.

jimmyk

I should add, lest I give the wrong impression, that 99.9% of my interactions with the black population of Detroit were positive, including some long-time friendships, fine neighbors, and very upright, law-abiding people.

Ignatz

--DoT - IIRC (have been meaning to look into one) a .17 caliber is a rimfire cartridge which is essentially a .22 caliber knecked down to .17 caliber--

The original .17 caliber was the .17 Remington which is a necked down center fire .223 Remington from the 70's although it had been a wildcat for much longer. It's a rare varmint caliber.
What they're discussing here is no doubt the more recent .17 HMR family of necked down 22 long rifles created by Hornady a few years back.
.17 Rem magnum=4,000fps+
.17 HMR=2500fps+
Incidentally some wildcatters have also experimented with .14 and .12 caliber centerfire varmint rounds for years.

Extraneus

The answer is that we knew we were being played with this b.s. story from the get-go. Based on our boy dd's posts, leftists knew this, too, but were more than happy to go along with a good ol'-fashioned lynching. Their lust for it seems to be waning, though.

Rob Crawford

I just asked a question knowing what the answers would be.

No, you projected your hatred and ignorance onto other people. You assumed you knew why people took the positions they did based on your prejudices, not on what they said.

Ignatz

--It's amazing to me how many think a .177 caliber pellet from an air rifle, or a .22 rimfire are not dangerous like a higher caliber round.--

Well, even a blank can kill you as John Eric Hexum found out the stupid way and Karamojo Bell killed 1000+ elephants with the 7mm Mauser and equivalent rounds, but all in all a .177 caliber pellet gun isn't dangerous like a high caliber round.
If you don't think so test a pellet gun at 50 feet to the chest and a .505 Gibbs.

Rob Crawford

Look Rob, I was just messin' with you guys.

Bullshit. You were calling us racists.

I'm sick of it. I won't take that bullshit from anyone anymore, and will call people on it.

AliceH

The devil is not indigent. He can afford retain his own advocate.

AliceH

I swear I am an excellent typist. This blog eats my prepositions.

jimmyk

What I was saying is that one case seems to have struck a completely different chord than the other.

But wait, I thought you were asking a question? It turns out (shocker!) that you were making a statement. And one that was BS, except as applied to the troll-racebaiters bubu, duda, and kaka.

Ignatz

--Ig; I saw an elephant gun in the movie Tremors that looked like an 8-gauge and the rounds looked like rifled slugs with rounded tips.

What was it ?--

IIRC it was a massive underlever sxs. Just guessing but it was almost surely a turn of the century thing in 450/500/577 Nitro Express or their black powder equivalents. Maybe I'll see what bing says.

Tremors and Joe Kidd were the two movies that off the top of my head were most obviously made by firearms connoisseurs.

Tom Maguire

The devil won't be coming down to Alabama just now; sorry if the thread has become a bit cryptic.

Tom Maguire
TomM-- ai yai yai. Notice the words in the statute.-- as you point out, this is "Defense of a Person' provision, and moreover, the breakin has to be unlawful AND forceful--

Well, I think I was pretty clear that I don't feel great about that reading. Also, I sense a circularity betwwen

Section 13A-3-23 a) ...A person may use deadly physical force, and is legally presumed to be justified in using deadly physical force in self-defense or the defense of another person pursuant to subdivision (4), if the person reasonably believes that another person is:

and the relevant rationale only emerges in section 4:

(4) In the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or has unlawfully and forcefully entered, a dwelling, residence...

However, I am pretty sure these are 2006 revisions.

Constitution First

I own property in the north country, and yes, we get regular break-ins. We can pretty much assume it's kids that are doing it. Whether they come by car or boat, registration numbers are all you need to catch a thief. No backcountry judge is going to let you slide on a shooting on your neighbors property.

Saying: 'dumb teenagers' is an oxymoron.
If they were running away, why shoot? Apparently they weren't firing 'warning shots'. Texas or no, someone is going to be doing some jail-time.

It's dumb-ass crap like this that give the Liberal-gun-grubbers all the ammunition they need. That said... Some people really are too stupid to be allowed firearms.

NK

TomM@303-- I think someone will explain the deadly force is to protect occupants of the residence from the forceful breakin, like protecting a carjack victim. As opposed to save Aunt Martha's china from being hauled off.

AliceH

I am curious now as to timing of the first TM/GZ post here. The shooting was on 2/26, oldest post I found was 3/17 and triggered by NYT story with the headline "Justice Department Investigation Is Sought in Florida Teenager’s Shooting Death ".

So, about 3 weeks. The AL story is of an incident on April 15 - just over 1 week. I say we give the NYT 2 more weeks to write a story on the AL shooting before anyone commences a comparative analysis on "how commenters here react".

NK

ConstFirst-- is it safe to say Ala. law allows force to protect people, not Aunt Martha's china? Thanks for helping.

JS

"Weighing against this story: Zimmerman had a pistol and a concealed carry permit; the weapon used here was a rifle. Gun controllers don't have sporting rifles on their rader."

Nonsense--gun controllers have ALL privately-owned firearms on their "rader." They've just made so little headway with handguns that they haven't yet turned their attention to rifles. Hell, most so-called "assault rifles," long one of their bugaboos, are functionally identical to sporting rifles, a fact they've overlooked thus far.

NK

Can the faux BenF please stifle? one BenF is enough.

Ignatius J Donnelly

Many "gun controllers" make a distincion between different types of arms.

Observer

There was a fatal shooting near Phoenix AZ (Laveen) earlier this month that was more similar to the Trayvon Martin case than this one. See if you can guess why nobody in the MSM or the racial grievance industry has paid much attention to this shooting:

A guy in a car was going thru the drive-thru at the Laveen Taco Bell. Another guy walked in front of the car, angering the driver. The driver and the walker exchanged words, and the driver shot the walker. The driver claimed that he had acted in self defense when the walker swung a pipe at him. Witnesses said the walker had nothing in his hand but a dog leash (he'd been walking his dog). Police found no pipe or other weapon anywhere near the scene. The family of the (now dead) walker said he was mentally disabled. The shooter had not been arrested at the time the story appeared in the local paper.

Missing a clue? Here you go: the shooter in the car was black, the victim was white (or white hispanic, if you prefer).

Ignatius J Donnelly

Well Observer, the Phoenix shooting in my opinion, will remain a local story. not much guilt value.

NK

Phoenix? no race hustlers, no narrative, no national story.

AliceH

Vex posted a link to the taco bell shooting story upthread. When I first saw the url "..victim holding leash not weapon..." I thought it was going to be about #Obamaeatsdog.

AliceH

sorry if the thread has become a bit cryptic. Ha!

On a COMPLETELY unrelated note...where's narcisco?

gospace

The doctine I was given on active duty about deadly force was simple, and should apply to everyone. Period.

Deadly force IS authorized to stop a felony from occurring, or to prevent escape from a felony.

Not may be authorized, no need for warning shots, or any of that crap. IS authorized.

Perps should know that in committing a felony, they are betting their lives, and they could lose the bet.

jimmyk

off

wannabe

No you don't EVER fire a bullet into the air, for any reason unless you own all of the land in that direction for miles and have "no trespassing" posted.

Jeezus, Tom.

jimmyk

now?
now?

Tom Maguire

Well, as to shooting into the air, it woul dbe better if they had fired at the lake, or the ground.

But here is a recent story:

Investigators also are examining why the men allegedly fired “warning shots” at terrain level rather than into the air or ground.

The Feds are also involved because two of the guys had felony conviction and should not have been "around" guns.

I have a rather cold-blooded guess that the DA wants to let this drift for a day or two until he knows whether he is charging a homicide. Assuming Alabama has any kind of speedy trial law, a delay in starting the clock might make sense.

bmcburney

From the description of events, it seems much more likely to me that the girl was shot with the rifle found at the cabin rather than either of the rifles on the boat. Of course, it is possible that a warning shot fired into the air might come down in the wrong place and its possible someone on the boat might have fired into the cabin rather than into the air. More likely is that the boyfriend or another one of the theives paniced and pulled the trigger while the girl was in the wrong place. We'll see.

Tom Maguire

Well, as cited above, the two warning shooters allegdly know which of them hit the girl. And they do claim to be devastated, so they don't seem to be hanging their hats on the idea of a third shooter. Nor, as noted, do they claim that shots were fired at them.

Of course, if the rifle left at the scene may have been used that would explain the seemingly high bail.

xbradtc

If the teenagers were in the act of committing a felony (B&E?), wouldn't that make them the ones liable for any further felony charges?

For instance, most states have a felony murder statute of some sort, where, if you're committing a felony, and someone dies in the course of that felony, you're liable for murder charges, even if you are not the direct cause of death.

Kathy Kattenburg

"Their race is not mentioned, but I am guessing white, based on I don't know what."

Based on the fact that their race is not mentioned, obviously.

Tom Maguire
For instance, most states have a felony murder statute of some sort, where, if you're committing a felony, and someone dies in the course of that felony...

I have been scratching my head all afternoon wondering which recent movie or TV show had that plot point. Justified? I'm still stumped, but yes, it's a good point.

Arch

We live in a dangerous world.

I live in Alabama - was born here.

In 1977 my uncle was locking up his business in Birmingham, when two black guys held him up. After taking his watch, wallet and car keys, they beat him up just for fun, kicked him in the face breaking his jaw.

In 1981 sixty miles east of here, my cousin, his wife and ten year old son were murdered in a home invasion. It took until 2005 to execute one of the murderers. The other is in for life without parole. Both perps were white.

As a pistol permit holder and I'm always armed.

It's better to have a weapon and not need it than the other way around.

Threadkiller

After much thought I have concluded they were going to simultaneously snipe the thieves in the ass. One probably aimed high and the dumber of the two did not. There is no fucking way they did not know a direct shot was scored on the girl. That's when they ran like Hell back to their boat.

The basis for my theory is their story on how they knew the kids were on the island. They claim to have heard the motor of the kids boat. They went to investigate in their own boat. Knowing engines are a giveaway they must have paddled, got off the boat in a secluded spot and found a location to ambush the thieves.

Larry: "when I hit the light we should shoot 'em in the ass"

Larry, Darryl, and Darryl:"hee, hee, hee"

Light goes on, Darryl shoots ground, other Darryl shoots kid.

daniel

If the protagonists are correct in claiming that they only fired warning shots, then they are probably not guilty. The problem is that what goes up, also comes down. It is conceivable that a warning shot, aimed up in the air, came down on the head of the victim, killing her.
This sounds crazy but crazier things have happened.
They could be lying, of course; but how can one tell?

Beasts of England

Cecil@12:17 - It's a very accurate flat-shooting little varminter. (Which kinda blows the "warning shot" claim.)

.17 is news to me. However, my .22-250 varminter shoots with such a lovely arch...

Ignatz

--.17 is news to me. However, my .22-250 varminter shoots with such a lovely arch...--

The .17 is pretty bad in crosswinds compared to your .22-250, Beasts, which, despite my affinity for the .220 Swift and nice old archaic rounds like the 218 Bee, is probably the best varmint round ever made.

Kirk Parker

Ignatius,

"Many 'gun controllers' make a distinction between different types of arms."

Yes, indeed, they do: those they're coming for now, and those they're coming for later.

JohnJay60

Daniel - the angle of the bullet would tell how the shot entered the head.

Jimmyk - I think the use of the word 'sucker punch' to describe our imagined interaction between Martin and Zimmerman is incorrect. Martin had every reason to believe he was being unjustifiably approached and attacked by a burglar or murderer. Indeed, if Martin had a gun, I think "Stand Your Ground" would have applied to his application of force against Zimmerman. Which makes Zimmerman's claim of defense, if he was provoking the attack, illegitimate.

Rob Crawford

If the protagonists are correct in claiming that they only fired warning shots, then they are probably not guilty.

EXCEPT that if I were, say, target shooting and missed the target, striking someone down-range, I'd be (rightfully) up on charges.

"Warning shots" are no different than the stupid celebratory gunfire in third-world communities.

Rob Crawford

Hell, most so-called "assault rifles," long one of their bugaboos, are functionally identical to sporting rifles, a fact they've overlooked thus far.

Yep. I was surprised to find my rather vanilla-looking Mini-14 classified as an "assault weapon" in recent news stories. Generic stock, no pistol grip, no bayonet lug, standard is a 5-round magazine...

And how about the ATF's never-ending quest to ban shotguns used in 3-gun shooting competitions?

Arch

JohnJay:

Zimmerman's account seems to mesh with the physical evidence and the accounts of eye witnesses. The media have set you up with a false narrative. Rather than reporting Who, what, when, where and how have decided on Why and built a story that was factually incorrect.

If George Zimmerman did what NBC, CNN and MSNBC claimed, he would have been arrested the night of the shooting. They had, and still have, no evidence with which to hold him.

America wants justice, not a media narrative, to prevail.

Matthew Carberry

IANAL, but police often don't arrest as long as the probable suspect is cooperating, is not a flight risk, and there's any doubt of the facts.

Arrest takes PC, no matter that it is often treated lightly, and unless the cop was standing there you need often need to investigate to reach that standard. Also, arrest triggers certain timelines and legal protections.

The whole "arrest them, then figure out what happened" is a stupid play most of the time, it certainly shouldn't be done to pacify a mob.

Mannie
Let's start with, if you fire a warning shot, at least try to hit the sky - that would be the dark emptiness over the shooter's head, not the enclosed emptiness inside his still-intact skull.

The standard advice is to never fire warning shots. What goes up, Murphy, and all that. In most states you'll get arrested for reckless discharge for firing a warning shot.

If you still feel you must, then shoot into the ground at your feet. The other mope will still know you missed his head by an inch.

Beasts of England

Ignatz@5:51 - '...is probably the best varmint round ever made.' Especially when fired through a barrel made at my grandfather's factory, I'm proud to say.

Nothing wrong with the .220 Swift - I've seen some great shots with same.

M. Simon

I believe a .17 caliber rifle is an air rifle. Can be pumped or powered with a CO2 cartridge. And I believe the exact caliber is .177.

M. Simon

Let me add that my post on the "air rifle" is just a guess. I had one of those when I was a kid. Around age 15 IIRC.

I was going on the assumption that the press is ignorant. I note up thread that it may have been an actual rifle. We shall see.

M. Simon

JohnJay60 | April 23, 2012 at 05:54 PM,

Attacking because you were "provoked" is still assault.

And no SYG only applies if you are ATTACKED.

So much ignorance. So little time.

Cecil Turner

There are various .17's. Here's a couple pictures and .17 HMR test data. (There's a wide range in velocity . . . that HMR tested out at only about 2600fps, the Mach 4 checks in at 3800+fps.)

William Demot

I thought that if you are engaged in a crime and someone is killed, you are guilty of killing them even though you didn't pull the trigger.

My understanding is that these teenagers would be responsible for the injury (and possibly death) of their friend, since they were committing a burglary at the time.

Ignatz

--Especially when fired through a barrel made at my grandfather's factory, I'm proud to say.--

Can you let me in on the name of said factory?

--Nothing wrong with the .220 Swift - I've seen some great shots with same.--

More noise, more cost and inherently less accurate, but I still prefer it just cause it was the original hypervelocity round.

Ignatz

--the Mach 4 checks in at 3800+fps--

The Mach IV, IIRC is based on the old .221 Fireball which Remington made for that cool old pistol the XP 100.
It's like a slightly scaled down version of the .17 Remington which is based on the .223.

Ignatz

Well, time to go watch Top Gear and after that Richard Hammond trying to learn how to use logging machinery. Should be good for some laughs.

Rob Crawford

Well, time to go watch Top Gear and after that Richard Hammond trying to learn how to use logging machinery. Should be good for some laughs.

Watching the Hamster attempt to drive anything larger than a Mini is amusing.

Beasts of England

Ignatz@8:22 - Small Arms Manufacturing Company, Inc. Bridgeville, PA. They were truly innovators: diamond turning, et cetera. Made barrels for Weatherby, Sako, among others. Also, did a lot of custom work.

Cecil Turner

My understanding is that these teenagers would be responsible for the injury (and possibly death) of their friend, since they were committing a burglary at the time.

I don't think so. That's a variant of the felony murder concept, but the Alabama murder statute appears to require a "participant" do the killing:

(3) He or she commits or attempts to commit arson in the first degree, burglary in the first or second degree, escape in the first degree, kidnapping in the first degree, rape in the first degree, robbery in any degree, sodomy in the first degree, any other felony clearly dangerous to human life and, in the course of and in furtherance of the crime that he or she is committing or attempting to commit, or in immediate flight therefrom, he or she, or another participant if there be any, causes the death of any person. [emphasis added]
I'd read that as one of the burglars, who in this case didn't kill anyone. IANAL though, and that's pretty technical, so might want to get a real opinion.

Henry Butler

Reports are that the girl was hiding in the bushes, far away from the three high school dropouts who were kicking in the doors of the cabins, cutting screens, and toting off power tools...the warning shot to scare them off, hit the young girl, unfortunately. Wonder what she told her parents where she was going at four in the morning?

Ignatz

--Ignatz@8:22 - Small Arms Manufacturing Company, Inc. Bridgeville, PA. They were truly innovators: diamond turning, et cetera. Made barrels for Weatherby, Sako, among others. Also, did a lot of custom work.--

Heh. Small world, Beasts.
I just sold my beautiful custom .284 Winchester small ring 98 Mauser with Small Arms Manufacturing 22" barrel last year.
I'll post a picture of it tomorrow when I'm on the other computer with the pics.

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