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April 13, 2012

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jwest

“Might the defense move to strike all his statements to the police on the grounds that he was fogbound?”

If Zimmerman had made any statements to the police that contradicted the physical evidence, witnesses or previous statements, Corey certainly would have noted something in her affidavit about “inconsistencies”.

Chubby

I believe Hannity also interviewed Z's father on his teevee show, perhaps a video or transcript of that is available. He also had a telephone converstation with Z himself, which conversation he is keeping sealed and said he expects to be subpoenaed. The reason Z reached out to Hannity is probably because Hannity's constant warnings not to rush to judgment were probably the only bits of light Z could find while he was in hiding.

Jack is Back!

As i understand it, we still have no definitive forensics (i.e. fingerprints on the gun, result of hand swipes for firing residue, autopsy report, paramedic report, etc.). Or am I just not up to speed having been isolated so long away from a signal?

I am still perplexed that Corey decided she has enough to convict since from all the news and comments here and elsewhere this is a case of extreme doubt. I always thought in criminal jury trials you argue facts, facts, facts, and then the law as a last resort. There mist be facts out there the State knows and we don't or this a "Libby redux".

Danube of Thought

BTW, it's now my understanding that the casing from the fatal round did in fact eject, and was found in Z's clothing. That ends the theory of TM's hand gripping the slide and the frame.

jwest

This case has moved out of the realm of what is legal and the constraints of “facts”. There is absolutely no reason to believe that as this moves before a judge the evidence will suddenly matter.

Now that Corey has provided legitimacy to the pro-Trayvon narrative, it would be near impossible for a judge to dismiss the case based on the evidence. As we’ve seen in the past, once the politically accepted storyline is ingrained, all the rules fly out the window. For this reason, O’Mara may be a poor choice for a defense lawyer.

It could be that Zimmerman doesn’t need a quiet, serious lawyer, but a circus barker in cowboy boots and a ten gallon hat holding press conferences three times a day. He needs someone who will turn this into a Hispanic versus Black civil rights battle, mocking Corey and railing against the politically inspired arrest of his client.

The legal system is fine, but it’s not in play right now.

cboldt

I would think that it would be the prosecution who would want to discard Zimmerman's account, on whatever basis it can.

boris

"a circus barker in cowboy boots and a ten gallon hat holding press conferences three times a day. He needs someone who will turn this into a Hispanic versus Black civil rights battle, mocking Corey and railing against the politically inspired arrest of his client"

Probably one of reason the public does not have more complete knowledge of the forensics is to prevent just that kind of scenario.

cboldt

Robert Zimmerman, Sr. and Robert Zimmerman, Jr. both gave on-air interviews.


Interview with Robert [father] CNN Newsroom - March 29, 2012


Interview with Robert, Jr. [brother] Piers Morgan - March 29, 2012

Janet

Here is some audio of the New Black Panthers players. Michelle Williams and Chawn Kweli.

Weasel Zippers pointed out how Michelle Williams was the go-to "community activist" over the years for ABC Tampa for her thoughts on community issues.

It is always some radical leftists who are the supposedly neutral, nonpartisan "experts" speaking for the community. :(

fdcol63

"a circus barker in cowboy boots and a ten gallon hat holding press conferences three times a day."

Why did the name Gerry Spence immediately come to my mind? LOL

narciso

The Herald's coverage is just horrible, their point person, is like Carol Rosenberg on Gitmo, she's just plain wrong, like Scott Shane at the Times,

fdcol63

Ref the NBPP and their call for a race war:

I think this is a bad idea when your ethnic group comprises just 12-13% of the population.

Scott

The circus barker might work with a judge prior to motion to dismiss (or whatever it's called in FL), but if it doesn't, Team Z needs to be in better position before a jury.

If I'm a member of Team Z, I don't have a problem with a jury showing up to court expecting to see evidence that my client profiled the defendent on nothing but race, that biometric voice analysis will prove the screamer is Trayvon, that my client was not injured at all, that he outweighed the victim by 100 pounds, that he calls 911 every other day, that he "chased" the victim after the 911 operator "instructed" him not to.

There's a price to pay for over promising and under delivering, but there is a precise time when you want that price paid. I hang every media, family, "advisor" misrepresented fact around Corey's neck and I hope the jury comes to court expecting to see video of the murder.

I tell new investigators this all of the time - let those who would deceive you believe that they have, right up to the point where they have no opportunity to change. A thousand victories in the court of public opinion mean nothing if you don't get the 1 victory that matters.

Chubby

(( For this reason, O’Mara may be a poor choice for a defense lawyer.))

I am thinking along the same lines. when he was first hired I was all approving of him, mostly because I was relieved that Z finally had trustworthy representation. However yesterday, reading about how O'Mara's core business is to defend murderers, I thought that right there adds quite a bit to the popular assumption that Z is a murderer.

narciso

They do the same as the BBC 'intimating' that he said other than 'punks'


http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/12/2745357_p2/prosecutors-zimmerman-profiled.html

cboldt

-- I hang every media, family, "advisor" misrepresented fact around Corey's neck ... --


She took care of that herself. Nobody forced her to adopt the facts she did. She had more information than we do, and she's staked out a narrative as "swear to god" true.

James D.

Scott, that's all true. Except that the thousand victories in the court of public opinion lead to bounties on your head by the NBPP and "wanted dead or alive posters" and might well incite somebody who believes all the lies to blow your brains out while you're walking out of the courthouse after you get your "1 victory that matters".

bobby b

O'Mara will do just fine.

I'm looking forward to the testimony of the initial prosecutor who looked at just about all of the actual evidence that will make it to trial and concluded that there was no viable charge.

Makes for a very tough day for someone who has to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt."

And he will be called as a witness. He directed part of the investigation.

Jack is Back!

Chubby,

I don't know. If I was accused of 2nd degree murder, I would want someone who was expert in defending 2nd degree murder charges not somebody with a history of historonics. You can't change the indictment (Z is accused of 2nd degree murder) by hiring an attorney who is not attached to prior murder cases. It is what it is until such time as it is either thrown out by a judge (highly unlikely) or Z is shown to be innocent and the state has not proved its charges.

I remember watching O'Mara on the Casey Anthony trial. He was a trial expert for WKMG (Local CBS in Orlando). He is very smart, low keyed, level-headed and highly respected by his peers. As he said: "this is what I do".

But I am curious as to your comment: Do you think O'Mara's background would influence any potential member of a jury as to Z's guilt?

Scott

As for the eyewitness evidence, I think we can assume that what we know is what is there. If a witness gave incriminating evidence against Z during the initial investigation, he would have self identified by now - "I told the cops I saw him push the kid off then shoot him, and they did nothing!" Just look at the 3-4 witnesses who've given interviews to media - bupkis. Some accounts might leave room around the edges for interpretation and amplification, but no surprise witness is on the horizon.

Forensics are another matter, and maybe the local DA said, "You're almost there, but let's wait for the labs." But criminal investigators at the scene are going to have a general idea if the wound fits the scenario. You also have to take into account that it was raining, that TM ended up on his chest on wet grass, and I'll assume there may be some physical effects of the EMT life-saving attempts.

The specifics of Z's statement will be critical, and this may be where Corey is slow playing her hand. You think your up against the whole profile/chase/confront/reasonable belief hand, and she's holding the physically impossible for TM and GZ to have been in contact when shot was fired, based on GZ's demonstration during re-enactment hand. Did he unconsciously demonstrate an arms-length position when re-enacting his firing position? Did police record this?

To my mind, this all comes down to what Z said to police, how he said it, if he was consistent and if it was consistent with the objective facts.

Scott

James D, that's baked into the cake already, and the small minority of people who would be willing to go that far 1) aren't going to be convinced by a media war that you can't win, 2) are already in the place you'll be going if you win the media war but lose the big one - try avoiding them.

Fight the fight that matters.

jwest

The Zimmerman Case – An (actual) Quick Review

On a dark, rainy night, a White-Hispanic gun toting racist chased down an unarmed black child and murdered him for walking through his neighborhood. Against the direct orders from police, Zimmerman got out of his SUV, chased down poor Trayvon and, as the child screamed for someone to help, fired his handgun into either his chest or the back of his head, as the Skittles Trayvon had bought for his little brother spilled from his pocket.

The racist Sanford Police Department made a cursory walk through of the crime scene, privately congratulated Zimmerman for bagging a black, gave him his gun back and sent him on his way.

Those are the facts as attested to by a special prosecutor, assisted by a crack team of investigators. Of course, there is some controversy over the details among a few people at one website, but otherwise everything stated above is settled science.

NK

My skepticism about GZ walking --no fuss no muss-- on his self-defense claim became notorious around here the last couple of weeks. So now let me turn my skepticism on the State's case. The affidavit is unsurprisingly thin, but in a murder case it is an embarassment. No allegation that forensic evidence discredits GZ's statements to cops, no allegation that GZ contradicted himself during those many hours in custody, and the most pathetic thing is the gratuitous GZ "profiled" statement. That's gratuitous, because ithas no legal signifigance whatever; as a citizen, GZ can hold whatever opinions he likes. His opinions that TMartin looked suspicious because he profiled a young black man have no bearing on the State's claim of recklessness. It's just a gratuitous slap to appease the racialists. It's right out of the Jackson, Sharpton, Holder race hustler playbook. Pathetic. Corey has started out real badly here. The fact that GZ called 911 helps him immeasurably defend against a frickin' disgraceful murder charge. But the 911 call and leaving his truck will hurt him badly on his self-defense immunity motion. The first thing the judge will ask himself is why did GZ leave his SUV when he was told SPD was enroute? Motion denied-- IMO.

Chubby

JiB, thank you for your comments because I do want my worries about Z's represenation to go away. My problem is that I don't know the answer to the question: if I know I were guilty of murder, would I pick the same lawyer as I would if I know I were not guilty? If he acted legitimately in self defense I don't want to see Z expediently manipulated by the system into believing he is a criminal. If a lawyer is in the business of defending guilty parties, is he up to the challenge?

((But I am curious as to your comment: Do you think O'Mara's background would influence any potential member of a jury as to Z's guilt?))

yes, if it is repeated over and over again in the media that Z's lawyer has a history of defending murderers (instead of those accused of murder that he proved not guilty), I do believe that could subtlely influence a potential juror.

Chubby

((Corey has started out real badly here.))

does that statement imply *results* that are bad for Z or bad for Corey?

NK

badly for the fair administration of justice in Florida, the USA, the galaxy... the overcharge of 'depraved heart murder' and this affidavit are an embarassing joke. What murderer calls the cops before 'in the heat of passion' tracking down and murdering a stranger. the charge is a joke, but this affidavit makes it worse, becasue it contains no information to evan make out the murser charge.

Brian

On a dark, rainy night, a White-Hispanic gun toting racist chased down an unarmed black child and murdered him for walking through his neighborhood while wearing a hoodie.

There fixed that for you.

Jay

The fact that GZ called 911 helps him immeasurably defend against a frickin' disgraceful murder charge. But the 911 call and leaving his truck will hurt him badly on his self-defense immunity motion. The first thing the judge will ask himself is why did GZ leave his SUV when he was told SPD was enroute?

Good point about the 9-11 call.

Regarding leaving the vehicle. Zimmerman told investigators he was trying to find an address. Whether that is true or believable, we'll see.

If the prosecutor's case is now:

1. Zimmerman allegedly followed Martin because Martin's girlfriend says so

2. Martin's mother says Martin is screaming on the 9-11 tape (hello confirmation bias!)

This is an embarrassment and I hope Zimmerman finds a legal remedy in all of this after he is acquitted.

jwest

Due to the severity of the charges and the atmosphere in which this case is being handled, Zimmerman’s attorney not only needs cowboy boots and a ten gallon hat, but a half carat diamond embedded in his front tooth (with LED backlighting) that shines as he smiles.

Presentation is everything.

NK

Jay-- I need to go back and read that 911 transcript, but my recollection is that the dialogue pretty clearly made out that GZ said he was following along where he'd seen the figure go -- it was more than just looking for an address. The State can legitimately allege that leaving his truck and following a 'suspect' because these 'assholes' get away before the cops come, was contrary to community watch training (I assume) and contributed to the confrontation. I still don't see how the State proves a negligent manslaughter charge beyond a reasonable doubt, but the State could at least legitimately make the claim. Depraved Heart Murder charge? a joke.

Ignatz

--Due to the severity of the charges and the atmosphere in which this case is being handled, Zimmerman’s attorney not only needs cowboy boots and a ten gallon hat, but a half carat diamond embedded in his front tooth (with LED backlighting) that shines as he smiles.

Presentation is everything.--

Again I'm not a lawyer but have had to endure so many civil trials and hearings, both jury and judge, that I've lost count.
Ive never seen flamboyance in a lawyer do anything other than harm his client's case or make his row harder to hoe.
I in fact am preparing a multi million dollar malicious prosecution, etc suit against the most flamboyant attorney and his clients I've even encountered.
Here's the problem; whether the judge is phlegmatic or flamboyant, neither one likes a big mouth lawyer.
The only hope of a big mouth lawyer is to get a bonehead like Ito and fortunately they're relatively rare.

NK

Ig-- agree entirely. If you are in front of a judge, an arbitration panel, or jury for more than a day or two-- histrionics wear thin fast and turn into a negative. Good luck in your lawsuit.

DanInMN

>BTW, it's now my understanding that the casing from the fatal round did in fact eject, and was found in Z's clothing. That ends the theory of TM's hand gripping the slide and the frame.

No it doesn't. Slides rack with considerable force when the weapon is fired and there isn't much to get a grip on. If the spent cartridge was ejected but the subsequent round failed to load that is entirely consistent with a second hand gripping the slide from the top or around the muzzle and frame from the front.

If Trayvon's hand was around the muzzle I would expect to see a minor laceration from the front sight post on his hand, depending on how abrasive the sight on a Kel-tec is. Personally, I wouldn't know because I don't shoot the cheap pieces of crap.

It will be interesting to find out if TM's prints are on the weapon at all.

Danube of Thought

"If I'm a member of Team Z, I don't have a problem with a jury showing up to court expecting to see evidence that my client profiled the defendent on nothing but race, that biometric voice analysis will prove the screamer is Trayvon, that my client was not injured at all, that he outweighed the victim by 100 pounds, that he calls 911 every other day, that he 'chased' the victim after the 911 operator 'instructed' him not to."

You need bubu to deliver the opening statement.

Problem is, Corey won't say much of that, and believe it or not they will find jurors who have never heard it (or who say they haven').

bobby b, they'll never get the original prosecutor's testimony into evidence.IIt's opinion about the ultimate question, and is irrelevant and inadmissible.

MarkO

My thanks to TM for a great compilation of information.

NK

DanInMin- if forensics show TMartin prints on the pistol? (or the autopsy showing GZ skin or hair under fingernails) the murder charge goes from a joke to a dangerous abuse of State power.

NK

DoT@9:49-- what if the defense serves a trial subpoena on Wolfinger? How is he excluded as a witness?

NK

PS: not that producing the Seminole Co prosecutor as a defense witness is a good idea (I have no idea if it is) but it would be an interesting development to show disagreement amongst prosecutors seeing the same facts.

BlahBlahBlah

NK said;
"and the most pathetic thing is the gratuitous GZ "profiled" statement. That's gratuitous, because ithas no legal signifigance whatever; as a citizen, GZ can hold whatever opinions he likes."

Actually, its extremely important because the prosecution needs to prove depraved mind - in other words, evil intent to do excessive harm

They will claim Martin attacked Zimmerman in self defense. That means depraved mind will need to be proven prior to Martin attacking (otherwise, Zimmerman would just argue Self Defense)

And how do you prove depraved mind prior to acting in self defense? You have to show he was on a hunt, disregarding the dispatcher and intent on confronting his prey - the very thing this affidavit pitifully portrays

Charging 2nd Degree is the reason she has to go this route; she now has to prove malicious intent and its near impossible so she will have to go with the questionable angry mobs theory and hope she can get it to stick

Pofarmer

""Coming closer" and "staring" are inconsistent with being afraid and with acting so as to minimize the possibility of physical contact."

It might be pretty consistent with being high, though.

I wonder what the tox screen will actually show on Trayvon?

Danube of Thought

NK, I son't dount they can call him to testify about what he saw and heard. All I meant was that he won't be allowed to say "based on all of that, I cobcluded we should not charge him," or "so that left me with reasonable doubt."

But it's fun to think about all the cleverly-worded questions that dance around the ultimate one, the answers to which will get a message to the jury.

Danube of Thought

*don't doubt*

Danube of Thought

Minus 17 at Raz today.

Trails Romney by 4.

BlahBlahBlah

NK also said:
"The State can legitimately allege that leaving his truck and following a 'suspect' because these 'assholes' get away before the cops come, was contrary to community watch training (I assume) and contributed to the confrontation."

It still doesn't explain how Zimmerman was able to track down a guy who couldn't make it 70 feet over a 3 minute timeframe in an effort to sit safety at home.

That's the problem here - Martin is the one acting with Malice; not Zimmerman. Martin had the option of just going home, and he didn't. Martin attacked Zimmerman, not the other way around. Martin delivered blows, Zimmerman apparently never landed a punch.

Proving Zimmerman was of Depraved Mind is going to be near impossible - especially in the face of a kid doing what he could to instigate the situation further

chas

"Ive never seen flamboyance in a lawyer do anything other than harm his client's case or make his row harder to hoe."

racehorse haynes and cullen davis effectively rebuts that theory.

Pofarmer

"I think this is a bad idea when your ethnic group comprises just 12-13% of the population."

Not if you think the rest of the population is a bunch of supplicant pussies. Wasn't it about 10% who favored the Revolution?

Sylvia

Tom you are wrong in several points.

-No one said TM ran all the way home like a little girl. Like he told his gf, he walked fast till he probably got away from the sidewalk a little bit, and got back towards the cutthrough, and probably slowed down to a walk after a bit. And then probably walked slowly as he chatted up his gf. From your map he went around the lenght of a town house and down a few townhouses. That to me looks like at least 50-75 yards.

We know the gf call ended at 7:16, GZ call ended at 7:13. Make it closer to start of 7:14 to end of 7:15, add in 30 seconds for verbal confrontation prior, that's like one minute, maybe less. A person walks 30 yards a second like you said, that is perfect timing.

- The probable cause affidavit is fine. I did a little research into similar things a while a go. All you need is a witness statement. A guy says, "I was robbed". You don't have to evaluate whether it is a good or bad witness statement. As that will be proven later. The prosecutor has several witnesses, the GF, the mother.

- You are quoting all these witnesses that say they saw TM on top. All of them are not sure who was on top. For the rightwing press to run with, TM on top, is a lie.

- I don't know that "John" is the same anoymous witness. Because that witness's lawyer was on TV yesterday and said the witness was a "she"

NK

BlahBlah-- to make out depraved heart charge (which I think is a joke) the evidence the State can allege in their affidavit was that GZ himself said on the 911 tape as he was following TMartin that "these assholes" always get away before the cops come. Hence the state can legitinately allege that -- GZ is the lawless vigilante, violating comm watch training, ignoring the 911 dispatcher, he was acting out of hatred for burglars, a depraved heart 'passion killing' (ridiculous of course because what depraved heart calls the cops before they shoot someone?) Instead, the State's affidavit gratuitously says "Profiled" to placate race hustlers-- GZ's only reference to race was an uncertain response to the dispatcher's request for a description of the suspect. Race was brought up by the Sanford PD dispatcher -- the State itself-- not by GZ!! So I disagree-- the "profile" is gratuitous and designed only to curry favor with the race hustlers, including the race hustlers in chief Holder and 'Bam.

Scott

Problem is, Corey won't say much of that, and believe it or not they will find jurors who have never heard it (or who say they haven').

My point was that there is no point trying to publicly refute the various inaccurate claims before trial, as was suggested by another. If they show up with clean slates of belief, fine. If they believe they're going to see all kinds of things that never materialize, that's fine, too.

Those that have heard these claims won't distinguish between sources (and Team Zs hope is that those jurors ascribe them to the state).

If you go the publci refutation route, those that haven't heard these claims from various sources would be first hearing them from you (Team Z) during the suggested public war of words.

Let them show up full of anticipation, or completely ignorant. But don't let them have any expectation about what they will hear from you.

Bobo

"The prosecutor has several witnesses, the GF, the mother."

LOL...the GF wasn't on the phone when the TM attacked and the mother was sitting at home the whole time. Great witnesses.

jwest

Ig, I agree that you need a serious lawyer for arguing in front of a judge, but that’s not where this case is going to be decided.

Zimmerman’s cowboy attorney should be in front of the media cameras, at the crime scene, with actors of the size, weight and color of the principles going through the motions in an animated, cartoon-like fashion. Using the same movements as a mime feigning running, he should have his actors show how ludicrous the assertion of Trayvon trying to run home away from the bad White-Hispanic is.

That’s when the judge who is hearing the self defense motion finds his opening to dismiss.

Pofarmer

"Charging 2nd Degree is the reason she has to go this route; she now has to prove malicious intent and its near impossible so she will have to go with the questionable angry mobs theory and hope she can get it to stick"

It's pretty sad that checking out someone in your neighborhood, at night, in the rain, could be considered malicious in the first place.

Scott

Does anyone have any idea what Wolfinger would say if called? Would he necessarily disagree with Corey? Isn't it entirely possible that he'd say "I refused to charge at the time pending forensics?"

NK

Sylvia says-- "the affidavit is fine". So Sylvia, we now have the Left on record as saying that Prosecutors grossly overcharging criminals "is fine". Don't give me any BS in the future when thousands of black and hispanic young men are overcharged all over the country on thin evidence to force them to cop a plea. You just said "IT'S FINE." Many thanks.

narciso

Look this is a Sharpton related matter, which means it will be a full on fustercluck, with Diallou, much like the shootings in the last year in a half, that forced a 'Chief Lee'
situation, they were justified according to
procedure, but regretable. Of course these are
the usually the same folks who are complaining
that the gangs are terrorizing them, like with
that earlier funeral shooting I was referencing earlier, that claimed 14 casualties,

NK

Scott-- I think it's fanciful to believe Wolfinger could help the defense (although he is a witness) - but if there is any kind of professional competiton between Wolfinger and Corey-- it could be interesting. watching Wolfinger criticize Corey on cross could be a "Captain Queeg" moment.

BlahBlahBlah

Sylvia said:
"We know the gf call ended at 7:16, GZ call ended at 7:13. Make it closer to start of 7:14 to end of 7:15, add in 30 seconds for verbal confrontation prior, that's like one minute, maybe less. A person walks 30 yards a second like you said, that is perfect timing."

Well you just blew a Chevy-size hole in the prosecutions argument. (and ignored the implications)

Zimmerman called somewhere between 7:13-7:14, and Trayvon had a 4 min call end at 7:16. Both indicate a 3-4 minute time frame to get in the house without ever coming in contact with Zimmerman. At 30 yards a second, and an estimated 4 minutes time, Martin could have made it 7,200 yards.

If Martin wasn't the aggressor, how did he not make it home? And if Martin was the aggressor, how did Zimmerman not act in self-defense?

Also, you might want to look to an actual Murder affidavit and see just how "fine" this one is. Or just look at everyone everywhere calling it unbelievably weak and questionable with the charge being an extreme overreach.

jwest

I forgot to mention that during cowboy attorney’s presentation to press, he should give away hot dogs and balloons.

If done properly, whenever Corey appears in public people will imitate the mime-running-in-place action and taunt “Run, Trayvon, Run”. It’s critical that Corey’s affidavit is seen as a joke prior to the self defense hearing.

Sylvia

You don't need to put your evidence on an affidavit. No serious lawyer would do so. We got a dead kid, and we know the guy who shot him. That's all you need. For now.

As to depraved mind, all they have to do is prove he shot and it was not an accident, like for manslaughter it was he aimed and somehow tripped and the gun went. Second degree means he purposefully pulled the trigger to cause him hard- that is the depraved mind.

DanInMN

NK said: if forensics show TMartin prints on the pistol? (or the autopsy showing GZ skin or hair under fingernails) the murder charge goes from a joke to a dangerous abuse of State power.

Depends on where the prints are found. If they're on the part of the gun *not* covered by the holster then it would indicate TM went for the gun. If they're on the muzzle it indicates he went for the gun after it cleared leather.

The former strengthens Zimmerman's case tremendously, but the indication of a struggle for the gun after it was drawn only tells us that TM realized he was about to get shot. At that point we're back at trying to figure out who the initial aggressor was. If it was Trayvon, then Zimmerman's shoot was clean if it was Zimmerman then his self-defense claim is weakened significantly.

I'm still a bit bewildered by the Murder II charge. One can at least imagine a situation where a jury could find that Zimmerman was the initial aggressor or that he was "unreasonable" in his response thus creating an "imperfect self-defense" situation that would support a voluntary manslaughter charge but lacks the depraved mind required for Murder II.

Given the facts we know to be true, this case ranges from justifiable homicide (if you believe Z's father) to voluntary manslaughter (if you believe that it was Trayvon yelling, etc.) There's just no evidence or even allegation that indicates the depraved mind required for M2. I don't get it.

Sylvia

sorry - cause him harM, above

Sylvia

Blah Balh Blah, I don't get your math. It was not 3 or 4 minutes. At minimum, it could be a minute and a half. The verbal confrontation takes a few seconds, maybe 30 seconds. Maybe a minute.

That's a minute, or a minute and a half.

We have to get the precise seconds the phonecalls started and ended to be sure.

And maybe he stopped to dial the number for a second. Remember TM thought he lost GZ, he wasn't scared the whole way.

NK

Sylvia-- not entitled to your own facts. Fla's 2nd degree Murder charge is traditional substantive definition-- it's an evil intentional murder that has every element of 1st degree, except for premeditation. What evil intentional murderer calls the cops, converses with the dispatcher while they are in an evil passion of stalking and killing their victim? The murder charge is a joke. But keep it up Sylvia, I am glad to hear the Left suporting harsh treatment of criminals. PS: are you also now a big fan of a Military Commision for Khalid Sheik Mohamed and other AQ? Cheers.

narciso

You're not supposed to, it's basically Corey adopting the Bell/Nunn template of 'otherness'
as the tool for repression, against young black males, forensics are an inconvenience in that circumstance,

NK

DanInMin- the reason I said any Tmartin prints on the pistol would shock me is that cobborates GZ's self-defens account, shows that TMartin was close enough to touch the gun -- whatever you think about GZ's self-defense story TOTALLY exonerating him, how does the State charge 2d degree murder on those facts?

narciso

This is the irony isn't it, Holder based on the advice of Diskal among others, didn't trust the KSM confessions and the subsequent
pleas, so he wanted to try them in NYC as one recalled,

Sylvia

Worng NK. Second degree means not manslaughter. Manslaughter means homicide without intent. Seocnd degree means intent. You are taking this depraved stuff too far. It just means it wasn't an accident, like manslaughter.

You cannot charge for manslaughter here. So the gun went off, and it was an accident? Not even GZ is claiming that. He admitting to pulling the trigger on Trayvon.

Scott

---We know the gf call ended at 7:16, GZ call ended at 7:13. Make it closer to start of 7:14 to end of 7:15, add in 30 seconds for verbal confrontation prior, that's like one minute, maybe less. A person walks 30 yards a second like you said, that is perfect timing.---

First problem with your timing is that GZ is "following" and advised it is "not needed" about 1:30 before his call ends.

Second, if the GF is to be believed, the verbal confrontation consisted of 2 sentences - not 30 seconds.

Third problem is you don't know what route GZ took. TM apparently ran east, then south between buildings along sidewalk toward his home. Did GZ chase along same path, or did he go south first to parallel TM, then east toward the sidewalk to intercept?

TM told GF that he lost GZ and GZ told 911 that he lost TM - what were both doing during this time? Did TM hide (even marginally) near the NE coner of the building? Did GZ assume that TM's absence from the sidewalk (north to south) between the buildings meant TM had already made it south of his planned interception point? Did GZ then head south? Not finding TM south, did he give up and start walking north on the sidewalk back to his truck - or to find an address? Was GZ now squarely between TM and TM's residence? Did TM conclude that there was no way GZ and that he would now have to go through GZ to get home?

I'm open to the idea that I missed the answers to these questions. Who knows?

That's why GZ's statement is critical.

Thomas Collins
"We got a dead kid, and we know the guy who shot him. That's all you need. For now."

Sylvia, I have to hand it to you this time. That is a pithy summary of the likely state of Angela Corey's thinking!

narciso

Just like they were absolutely sure that Abed the butcher of Fallujah, was the victim, and not the Seals,

Sylvia

No Scott it was more than two sentences. I actually timed myself saying those things and it was 30 seconds.

I think they both went the same route. Along the side of the one townhouse, and around the corner, down the walkway in between.

I think GZ had to run to catch up. TM walked slowly. Tm turned around and saw him.

Second of all the call ended at 7:16. I think he had an earpiece. The call might not have ended right away as no one hung up. Does the call end when the earpiece gets too far? How does that work? I don't have earpieces so I don't know.

Danube of Thought

I think the mother's testimony about her son's voice is going to be believed, and compelling. The defense has its work cut out on that one.

I was unaware that a slide could carry far enough to the rear to eject a casing, and then not pick up the next round. But I've never done the experiment. Do we know that the chamber was empty?

Sylvia

What's the deal with the casings? I didn't read about that yet.

Jay

As to depraved mind, all they have to do is prove he shot and it was not an accident, like for manslaughter it was he aimed and somehow tripped and the gun went.

This is pure & utter fantasy and delusion.

You may want to read the statute.

Pofarmer

DOT

If he had a Glock 9 mil, I've seen several of them malfunction exactly that way with a full clip. Eject first shell, no second shell in chamber.

NK

Sylvia-- again not entitled to our own facts, Fla Statute 782.04 (2) describes 2nd degree murder as:
"(2) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084."

The traditional "depraved heart" killing. That require PROOF of a specific malicious intent to kill without justification. what act of depravity is alleged here? GZ was talkng with the cops just before the fight and the shooting. 2d Degree murder is a gross overcharge-- but go on Sylvia, keep on justifying harsh law and order. I love it.

Pofarmer

"hat's the deal with the casings? I didn't read about that yet."

Apparently, Z was getting ready to make sausage.

Jane (where is Jon Corzine?)

DOT, are you home now?

Sylvia

It' also possible during their verbal confrontation TM walked back a few feet to talk to GM just out of habit and to appear like he was not scared. Also during the struggle before they fell they could have moved back and shifted positions. So they could be ten 15 yards back from where TM started.

Scott

Sylvia, if you listen to the GF say it, it took 4-5 seconds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8DemEfSHWA

But why quibble about seconds when geography is the point?

What is GZ doing during the remaining 1:30 of of his 911 call when it is clear he isn't running or arguing with TM?

Sylvia

"That require PROOF of a specific malicious intent to kill without justification. "

Yes that means it wasn't an ACCIDENT!

NK

jay-- agreed about Sylvia making it up. I copied/pasted Fla's 2d degree murder statute-- traditional specific intent depraved heart. The 2d Murder Charge here is a joke-- subject to Corey having "Bombshell" evidence no one has seen.

DanInMN

Sylvia, in Florida, Voluntary Manslaughter covers homicides arising from sudden heat of the moment conflicts. Involuntary Manslaughter covers negligent homicides. Murder 2 is exactly the same as murder 1 except you can't prove pre-meditation.

Danube - I don't think we do know for sure that the second round wasn't chambered. I think that's the rumor, but who knows for sure?

NK - That's a good point about how TM's prints on the gun showing that it was a close range encounter and that strengthening Z's case. I agree that facts like that don't support M2.

I did some quick research and found a Florida chart that shows what the lesser included offenses are for each charged crime. Linky: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=lesser%20included%20offenses%20florida&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.floridasupremecourt.org%2Fjury_instructions%2Fchapters%2Fchapter33%2Fschedlesserincludoffens.rtf&ei=EjqIT9WJPMGt2QXWxoXJCQ&usg=AFQjCNGPNjHfNdx6i6d5anNKkOKLwwjQTg&cad=rja

It sheds some light on the reason she charged the way she did as Manslaughter is included in a Murder 2 charge and the jury will be given instructions that include voluntary manslaughter.

Jay

Yes that means it wasn't an ACCIDENT!

Posted by: Sylvia

Hello!

Um, that would be manslaughter under FL statute (The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder)

The reason why we know what you're saying is wrong?

Because Corey is alleging Zimmerman followed Martin and confronted him.

Please read up on these facts.

BlahBlahBlah

Sylvia,

do you own math - Zimmerman called the police for a reason. Zimmerman says Martin sees him during this call. Meanwhile, Martin is supposedly telling the person he is talking with he sees the guy. If Zimmerman is talking to police about Martin at 7:13, and Martins call ends no sooner then 7:16 you have between 3-4 minutes which Martin could have used to get home - which is 7600 yards he could have walked and he only needed to go about 70.

As far as this:
"Second degree means he purposefully pulled the trigger to cause him hard- that is the depraved mind."

Huh? That's manslaughter - or a lack of intent to kill prior to said killing taking place. And Manslaughter is easily countered with Self Defense considering Martin was beating his head into the ground at the time...

Gus

Thomas. Bingo. From Corey's own analysis, we have ASSUMPTIONS. 2 ASSumptions come to mind immediately and both are clearly and merely SELF FULFILLED PROPHECY.
1) Whitey Zimmerman quote/unquote PROFILED Skittles Martin.
2) Whitey Zimmerman initiated some sort of ASSAULT on Skittles Martin and his ICED TEA/

Total and untter unprovable bullshit.
Only someone who is a moron or has a predisposed bias and narative would believe such crap. The evidence and police date we have seen does not support this. It's Corey's biased opinion. But then again, I didn't PRAY with Skittles Martins beautiful family.

narciso

One recalls the Posada Carriles case, that was a lefty cause celebre, pumped up by the Times Rohter, and Ann Bardach, Castro's 'Nina Burleigh' in the end it came to naught, there
was no there there, as Gertrude Stein, would say.

chas

Posted by: Sylvia | April 13, 2012 at 10:50 AM

NO_LIMIT_NI@@A was back there w/ his crew of Crip bangers casing some of those townhomes to rob when zimmerman came upon them. NO_LIMIT_NI@@A jumped him and was crushing his skull w/ a lousiville slugger and zimmerman had to shoot him to survive.

Scott

Danube, GZs family will testify that this is him calling out, and it will be bolstered by eyewitnesses.

The slide can eject and not catch the new round coming forward, leading to a misfeed, or the mag released can be depressed during struggle (happens in controlled setting all the time), causing the mag to drop lightly so the slide doesn't catch next round. LEO types are trained to tap (bottom of mag) and rack in misfire scenario to ensure mag is porperly secured.

NK

Thank's for the straight line Sylvia, here's your punchline-- In Florida, an INTENTIONAL killing, without legal justification, WITHOUT the specific intent of depraved malice, IS? .... manslaughter in the 1st or second degree depending on aggravating circumstances. Florida does not have the traditional voluntary-involuntary definition. So Sylvia- if you think killing a stranger in a fight, WITHOUT any specific allegation of MALICE justifies a murder 2 charge, you are a heartless and harsh law and order type. Kinda like Duke Wayne and Archie Bunker. Congrats.

Danube of Thought

Five O'clock in Passau.

Thomas Collins

For those who have followed this closely, as far as you all know, is the LUNed attempted reconstruction a solid one? Is there a better one out there?

Sylvia

Okay let me spell it out.

GZ call ends at 7:13 and 59 seconds.

TM calls ends at 7:16 and 1 second.

That is 2 minites and two seconds.

The verbal confrontation lasts 30 seconds.

That is 1:32.

They shift back a few yards during the verbal and physcial.

A person walks 30 yards a minute (according to Tom Maguire). In a minute and a half that is 45 yards.

It looked like it could be up to 75 yards from car, I don't know.

That is perfect timing.

Sylvia

If you pull the trigger on someone, with the intent to kill them, that is second degree.

The defense is if you can prove self defense.

DanInMN

Here's a link to the jury instructions for Florida's homicide laws including self-defense. Very enlightening as I was not aware that Florida did not make the voluntary/involuntary manslaughter distinction.

http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/instructions.shtml#

NK

DanInMin-- thanks for the lesser included link. I initially wasn't shocked or outraged by the Murder2 Charge, because that was very consistent with Corey's routine overcharging. What did shock me overnight was the "Profile" allegation in the arrest affd. That was gratuitous-- no legal point to it nothing to do with malice-- right out of the racialist hustler playbook. If she makes a realistic deal with GZ for a Man. 2nd plea, no aggravating circumstances, a short sentence, and she pushes Holder to drop Fed charges, I'd be satisfied that she was being responsible. But for now, that affd really irked me.

Cecil Turner

Actually, its extremely important because the prosecution needs to prove depraved mind . . .

You beat me to it. By far the hardest part of sustaining this charge, and that "profiling" stuff is dynamite if she can get it in.

If the spent cartridge was ejected but the subsequent round failed to load that is entirely consistent . . .

Is there any credible report this is what happened? Because I gotta say, even with an unreliable weapon in strange conditions, it's rare (in the sense of happening on any particular shot), and more likely related to an unseated magazine than anything else.

Lolli

"Danube, GZs family will testify that this is him calling out, and it will be bolstered by eyewitnesses."

And it will also be bolstered by police report from that night that say when Z was in the back of the squad car he kept saying he was yelling for help but no one came.

derwill

DanInMN,

It's my believe she's using the 2nd degree murder charge to push for a plea bargain on a lesser charge.

A plea bargain is the optimal solution for the State. They get to claim they got justice for Trayvon without having to actually go through a very public trial where The Narrative is going to get, if not destroyed by the facts, at the least it's going get severely undermined, and even worse Z could get off and then they'd be faced with a Rodney King verdict redux. Furthermore, the media will love them for having The Narrative confirmed, Sharpton et al will leave town with a win and a potential pay day down the road with a settlement in a civil suit (the city of Sanford will settle--they always do, because in the end it's cheaper that way), the anti-gun crowd can use his admission of guilt to go after the 2nd amendment (see, look what happens when ordinary citizens are allowed to carry guns--Children are killed!), and the liberals can trot Saint Trayvon out like Jesus on the cross as an example of how horrible, horrible racism still exists in the country. (Any bets on how soon the white hispanic George Zimmerman, becomes just plain old white again?)

Some elements will not be happy with the plea bargain, because it won't be enough "justice for Trayvon," but without the race baiters and the media fanning the flames they won't get a lot of traction.

I think at this point the only question is whether Z goes along. He's got a hard choice--take 10 years, or whatever, with the chance to get out in five, or risk life in prison by taking it to the jury. Depending on what kind of person he is, he could be feeling considerable remorse about the shooting, so he might figure he deserves to do some time for it. Also, defending himself in court is going to bankrupt his family, and that knowledge will further add to whatever guilt he's feeling, which could push him to accept a plea.

DanInMN

Sylvia, from the jury instructions for 2nd degree, they have to prove the following:

An act is “imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind” if it is an act or series of acts that:

1. a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another, and

2. is done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent, and

3. is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life.

We've got 1, don't have any indication whatsoever of 2 and arguably don't have 3.

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