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May 02, 2012

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peter

I believe it the correct name of the newspaper is the Norfolk Virginian-Pilot.

[Merci.]

Clarice

I'd say that was a good guess, TM.

Thomas Collins

Perhaps MSM doesn't want the following question being asked: If Obama had a son, would the yutes committing mayhem in Trayvon's name look like that son.

Change that Hope.

The Great Divider.
=========

DebinNC

It's not until almost the end of the article that we learn the race of the victims and their attackers: Forster and Rostami, both white, suffered a beating at the hands of a crowd of black teenagers.

Before that the crowd are called "young men".."attackers".."young people".."30 people". The article doesn't say whether the victims' car was surrounded by the "senseless teenagers", preventing them from leaving without causing injury to one or more. Would they be facing charges if, rightfully fearing for their lives, they'd driven off and killed someone stationed in front of their car?

MarkO

I'm going with the Fleetwoods: The Great Pretender

Danube of Thought

That was the Platters.

Steve

the libs have put out some negative stuff on Zimmerman:
http://www.mediaite.com/online/newly-uncovered-george-zimmerman-myspace-page-disparages-mexicans-and-his-ex-hoe/

"... The long, rambling “About me” section of Zimmerman’s MySpace profile has a decidedly “thug life” ethos to it, particularly when Zimmerman praises his “boys” because they “do a year and dont ever open thier mouth to get my ass pinched,” which means that his friends served prison time rather than implicate him in a crime in exchange for a reduced sentence. ..."

Rob Crawford

the libs have put out some negative stuff on Zimmerman

And, yet, the evidence still says he was attacked without provocation.

dublindave

Here's what the child killer and hero of the 'Justoneminute' group wrote;

"I dont miss driving around scared to hit mexicans walkin on the side of the street, soft ass wanna be thugs messin with peoples cars when they aint around (what are you provin, that you can dent a car when no ones watchin) dont make you a man in my book. Workin 96 hours to get a decent pay check, gettin knifes pulled on you by every mexican you run into!"

Put his self defence claim in context,doesn't it?

Mike Giles

Why is some clown claiming "they did it for Trayvon" online, indicative of anything other than the poster's stupidity and/or an attempt to justify the unjustifiable? A fairly straight forward question: "How did an unarmed youth end up dead at the hands of another person, who was armed", has been pushed aside, while everyone chooses racial and political positions. In the interests of "winning" each side has demonized the other side. Everything from turning Martin into a hulking, "gangsta" killer to turning Zimmerman into a stalking, crazed, racist killer. Meanwhile any incident of interracial confrontation is treated as a race war looming on the horizon. The only thing considered of interest is the ethnicity of the participants, no other information being asked for or given.

Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet

No, dd it doesn't. Any more than looking at tattngrill Martin's considerably more recent thuggish public expressions put "innocent Trayvon" in context. As a result neither the GZ thread nor the Trayvon thread will be admitted into evidence in the case.

NK

JimRhoads@12:24-- I would say this, the social media postings of these 2 guys complicates the State's and defense's cases. I commented last week that TMartin's social media prevents the State from portraying TMartin as 'Saint Trayvon,' and will limit the family's testimony TMartin was a lawful occupant of the Unit and lawfully on the Property-- otherwise, thug TMartin comes in to attack credibility on cross and perhaps even as rebuttal evidence. Now, the defense has got to limit GZ's testimony to what he did that night being reasonable and lawful-- No Saint George defense- otherwise GZ's social media and record come in on cross, IMO.

DebinNC

Looks like GZ had lots of black friends in 2005. Hope NBC's lawyers notice that.

D

This is a very liberal paper in a conservative area full of military folks, same as our liberal paper here in San Antonio.

I subscribe to our local paper, but I've given up even reading the columnists any more, because it's the same leftwing nonsense, over and over again. Read mostly the sports.

Then they wonder why newspaper subscriptions are dropping. I love newspapers and will always subscribe, but it's so easy to do without them these days.

Rob Crawford

Put his self defence claim in context,doesn't it?

No. What puts it in context are the bloody wounds to the back of his head.

Rob Crawford

A fairly straight forward question: "How did an unarmed youth end up dead at the hands of another person, who was armed", has been pushed aside

No, it hasn't. It was answered pretty quickly:

The unarmed person committed assault and battery, putting the armed person in fear for their life.

Thomas Collins

Wow. The Hispanic doesn't like Mexican thugs who steal from those who work hard. Smoking gun evidence that Zimmerman acted with second degree murder type depravity, and that it couldn't have been Saint Trayvon who jumped him. Who knew Angie Corey had such compelling evidence to present?

Rob Crawford

I would say this, the social media postings of these 2 guys complicates the State's and defense's cases.

Utter bullshit, NK. The social media postings have no bearing on the case at all. The case is about what happened that night, in the minutes up to the trigger being pulled. Everything else is just bullshit.

steve

Put his self defence claim in context,doesn't it?

Posted by: dublindave


U r dum dubdave.

El Bango

"Utter bullshit, NK."

NK isn't exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer. I am pretty sure he's bunky's little bro who rode the short bus to school.

NK

Rob-- in fact, it complicates GZ's case first-- he has the burden of proof to win an Immunity motion. How does he prove that? How does his Immunity testimony start? "I was minding my own business walking on the sidewalk, and this kid confronted me, talked smack and punched me in the face etc...." That's it? No other context-- just that and give me my Immunity card now please. So on cross/rebuttal it comes out that he called the cops, knew the cops were coming, was supposed to meet the cops by his SUV, and he wasn't there he was following the figure-- if he leaves all that context to be filled in by the State, he proves SD to the Judge by a preponderance of the evidence? OK, whatever you say Rob.

Rob Crawford

Intentionally missing the point, NK?

AliceH

he has the burden of proof to win an Immunity motion

The State needs to counter at least some of his evidence with evidence of their own. Leaving them to fill in a narrative is completely useless and meaningless. They need to fill in with evidence that GZ was being assaulted, was not in reasonable fear. Evidence. Not narratives.

SDN

Just uncovered? Or just created out of whole cloth?

AliceH

...was *not* being assaulted

Rob Crawford

Just uncovered? Or just created out of whole cloth?

No reason to assume it's not real. There are no angels, and if Zimmerman has recently behaved in an exemplary fashion, it may be that he turned his life around.

NK

Rob-- I don't think so. the point IS that this is a court case now, so it all comes down to what you can prove in court. Very different from the real world-- good or bad, right or wrong it's the reality now for GZ. GZ's social media complicates proving self-defense, TMartin's social media complicates proving unlawful killing. That is the point right now for GZ and the State.

daddy

Here's mean moron Pete Stark, trying to make a reporter who is not a coward, (Debra Saunders of the San Francisco Chronicle), look stupid. Guess which one comes off as the petty, ignorant, idiot?

sailor

I think cbodt (sp?) needs to intervene between Rob Crawford and NK!

dublindave

From Miami Herald;Another line suggested his friends went to jail and did not rat him(Zimmerman) out. “They do a year and dont ever open thier [sic] mouth to get my ass pinched.”


So let me get this straight;George Zimmerman committed a serious crime in 2005 with some other people.He praises those people for not ratting him out,even though they receieved a longer sentence.


So what crime did they commit?

Who were his friends back in 05 and what did they go to prison for?

Shouldn't be hard to figure out.

Zimmerman insinuates that he doesn't miss the fear associated with driving around and specifically targeting Mexicans with violence?

We know Zimmerman has had a violent past,his girlfriend and a police office have been some of his known victims.

Was that the crime his friends went away for?Were they targeting and beating up Mexicans?Did Zimmerman continue this practice?

As I said,this shouldn't be hard to to the bottom of.

Ignatz

--Rob-- in fact, it complicates GZ's case first--

How would the state get any of that into an immunity hearing?

NK

Sailor-- I don't think so. Rob is of the opinion that the credible facts are a slam dunk for any reasonable judge to conclude this is a clear cut case of self defense -- charges dismissed and immunity against the family's wrongful death civil suit. I think because the burden of proof is on GZ, it's not so simple. And yes, the politics do make it harder for a judge to rule for immunity-- that's unjust, but it's also a factor. That said-- how can the State prove ITS case Beyond a Reasonable Doubt? I can't see how, based on the credible public evidence, there's lots of doubt about what happened, and so the State can't realistic prove its case BYD, for any homocide. The State disagrees and has sworn in an affidavit it has probable cause and Corey implicitly is claiming she can prove Murder 2 BYD-- I don't see it, but that's where we are.

dublindave

sorry...to get to the bottom of this....

Ignatz

"That" being his social media postings.

Greg Toombs

In this case, editors hesitated to assign a story about their own employees.

Except when one of their own dies. I've observed several front-page obits of a newspaper's staff. They offer special treatment in their own special way.

But not the kind that fails to support their preferred social fantasy, er, narrative.

NK

Ig-- cross-examination attacking GZ's credibility for sure (Judge he didn't tell you the full story.) State's rebuttal case?-- probably-- within limits of attacking the evidence GZ put in his direct immunity case.

Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet

In my experience, there have been "complications" in any trial I ever handled. Litigators earn their money by minimizing the effects of those "complications".

As an aside, I had only one case in 45 years in which I had all the facts and the law on my side and a client with the money necessary to prosecute the case. The only one problem with the case -- the defendant was judgment proof. Getting the client some relief was the big challenge there.

Rob Crawford

So let me get this straight;George Zimmerman committed a serious crime in 2005 with some other people.

You realize that's libel per se, right? Duub, would you be willing to back that statement up in court?

Rob Crawford

GZ's social media complicates proving self-defense, TMartin's social media complicates proving unlawful killing.

The social media habits of either of them have no bearing on the facts of the case.

Rob Crawford

cross-examination attacking GZ's credibility for sure

"Is it true you once told your mother you had NOT taken the last cookie?"

"In light of the defendant's admission that he once falsely claimed his dog ate his homework, how can we possibly trust his statement that he was not even present at the time of death?"

dublindave

"You realize that's libel per se, right? Duub, would you be willing to back that statement up in court?"


I would if it weren't for the one year statue of limitations on defamation suits.

Rob Crawford

Except you just said it, duub.

But, noted -- you have no problem libeling people.

Have Blue

NK - GZ will not elide the facts in his testimony. He will state that he had called the police on a suspicious character, attempted to observe the travel of that character, lost him and was returning to his vehicle.

None of that can in any way justify a felonious attack by Martin. If Martin attacked him and caused injuries consistent with attacks that might cause serious damage, then Zimmerman was justified.

MarkO

I would be interested in a citation or a rule that would permit the introduction into evidence of all of these items.

What is their relevance to this case?

NK

Rob-- so at the Immunity hearing if the State's rebuttal case is the full Saint Trayvon, they call witnesses to testify he was an innocent lamb stalked and slaughtered by this deluded vigilante, you think TMartin's musings about punching a bus driver, any other tweets and everything else he posted about violence, doesn't come in to show the Judge that the State is full of it, that TMartin was a thug who bragged about assaulting people. I think it would come inunder those circumstances, so the State is limited to saying TMartin was lawfully on the proerty, nothing else, to keep the real TMartin out of the case.

Have Blue

Dublindave - You just made the libelous statement today. You planning on inventing a time machine dudu?

Joe

Having been born and raised in Norfolk,I can tell you this crap has been going on since before 1972. It has always happened in my lifetime. Whites know that Church and brambleton has always been a bad spot. Saw a transvestite murder a man there on my way to school in 1973. Ruffner jr. High. At Booker T it was much worse. Norfolk should be a beautiful city by the sea. It will never be until the way to many housing projects are torn down. Call me racist if you want I have lived it. To thik I had to move to DC to find less black on white crime. Who could imagine that!!

Rob Crawford

so at the Immunity hearing if the State's rebuttal case is the full Saint Trayvon

Then the judge should laugh them out of court because that has bugger-all to do with the facts.

The immunity claim hinges on: was Zimmerman assaulted and was there cause to fear for his life. It apparently doesn't even matter -- in Florida -- whether he started or escalated the confrontation.

Steve

Impressive that the liberals were able to find out about Zimmerman's MySpace account. They must have had someone on the inside running a number of queries searching for accounts that might be his.

NK

MarkO/Rob-- attacking credibilty of a witness's testimony doesn't need any relevance of its own-- virtually anything can be used to attack credibility. Irving Younger in his evidence/trial technique lectures used the example of a bowl of fruit salad to discredit a witness-- the fruit salad has nothing to do with the case, but that's not the point, it's being used to attack the veracity, bias and/or credibility of the witness's statements. That said-- as Rob points out, there are limits, there's plenty of technically admissible cross-examination questions that don't hurt credibility. So what's the point-- the Judge won't put up with those for long. But here, both sides have to be careful about 'opening' doors that allows the other side to get stuff in that they don't want the judge or jury to hear. As JimR said, these are complications that the lawyers will have to work around.

jimmyk

so at the Immunity hearing if the State's rebuttal case is the full Saint Trayvon

NK, that's why if the State is smart they won't pull the St. Trayvon stunt, since they know full well that it could open up his history for scrutiny--or at least I think it would, though IANAL. But even that won't entitle the state to bring up GZ's past, and I'm sure O'Mara isn't going to try a St. George strategy.

So all this shows is that the MSM is desparately grasping at straws to keep it's race-baiting strategy alive, and will stop at nothing to distract the public from the reality of the case.

dublindave

Dublindave - You just made the libelous statement today. You planning on inventing a time machine dudu?


A defamation suit is dependant on WHERE the alleged harmful remarks are made.As you have no jurisdiction in the European Union, you dumb American,you'd have to catch me while i'm holidaying in your country.

Sadly,disgustingly over-weight people and Wal mart aren't the cultural treasures I seek when I got on holiday.THEREFORE,you'd have to wait till I was forced to go, but alas............statue of limitations on defamation suits in your country is very short.

Ignatz

--I would if it weren't for the one year statue of limitations on defamation suits.--

Statute of limitations begins to run at the time of publication dimbulbdave which was about a half hour ago.
Idiot.

gus

So SKITTLES MARTIN was VIOLENT.

I mean the SOCIAL MEDIA said he slugged a BUS DRIVER DRIVER.

Is this the game you LIBTARDS want to play??

NK

I'll end with this-- the very narrow Immunity case that Rob outlines, IMO, will leave the judge unsatisfied, and the State will have enough complicating factors so that given the Burden of Proof is on GZ, the Judge will have a hard time granting Immunity. Obviously, we all have to wait for the hearing, but that's the way it looks to me at this point.

Ignatz

--I would be interested in a citation or a rule that would permit the introduction into evidence of all of these items.

What is their relevance to this case?--

Exactly. If GZ doesn't talk about it then the state can't cross examine him about it. And if the state raises it how would O'Mara not succeed in his objection?

Rob Crawford

the very narrow Immunity case that Rob outlines, IMO, will leave the judge unsatisfied

What a pity for your opinion that he has to rule on the law, not on his personal satisfaction.

NK

Ig-- see my 1:57. At the Immunity hearing the State is NOT proving anything, they are tying to disprove by 51% GZ's SD claim. So the State is free to attack GZ's credibility and veracity with matters that might not be admissible on the State's own case, but they legitimately raise questions about the believability of the witness testimony. Questions like that are not unlimited, but questions on cross don't have to be based relevant admissible evidence.

Melinda Romanoff

Shooting at Junior Seau's house.

NK

Rob-- I am very confident Judge Lester will follow the law. The question is what does he believe the facts to be after hearing testimony?, and what conclusions does he draw about what the facts prove. At that hearing he is the law judge-- AND-- the finder of fact. He knows the law, he'll have to be convinced about the facts.

dublindave

Statute of limitations begins to run at the time of publication dimbulbdave which was about a half hour ago.
Idiot.


True.But i'm not in your grotesquely over-weight oreo eating country,so by the time you drag me into a court,your sta-oh what's the f**king point.

Thomas Collins

Outside of the area of attacking a witness' credibility, I believe the general rules in Florida are that (i) evidence of prior violent acts is admissible in a self-defense case to bolster the defendant's reasonable fear of harm, but (ii) such evidence is not admissible if the defendant did not know of such acts.

NK

Ig-- shall I hold your coat whilst you beat the crap out of this DD thing? I'll be glad to be your self-defense witness.

Rob Crawford

TC@2:16 -- that makes sense.

Danube of Thought

I seriously doubt that any of it will be admitted in evidence. First, GZ may be able to establish his defense without taking the stand. Second, if he does testify, the only material that can be used to question his credibility is that which is relevant to that credibility, which the social media stuff is not.

Extraneus

Florida Gov. Scott refuses to ban guns during Republican convention

TAMPA, Fla. – Gov. Rick Scott has refused a request to prohibit the carrying of guns in downtown Tampa during the Republican National Convention this summer.

Tampa Mayor Bob Buckhorn had written to Scott asking for an executive order that would override state and federal laws allowing people with concealed weapons permits to carry firearms. He and other officials are worried about people toting guns in such a politically charged atmosphere.

But in a letter dated Tuesday, Scott said banning guns in all of downtown would infringe on citizens' constitutionally protected rights to legally arm themselves.

Scott wrote that "it is unclear how disarming law-abiding citizens would better protect them from the dangers and threats posed by those who would flout the law."

dublindave

"Ig-- shall I hold your coat whilst you beat the crap out of this DD thing? I'll be glad to be your self-defense witness."

Translation;

"IG-please like me.Please like me.Like me.Please.Sniff.Please like me.sniff sniff.Please"

gus

Your honor, DumbDouchebagDimbulbDaveyboy has neither confirmed nor denied that he STILL beats his husband. The fact that he won't deny that he still beats his husband, tells us everything we need to know.

Thomas Collins

See the last paragraph of page 4 (carrying over onto page 5) of the LUNed opinion for a statement of what I believe are the Florida rules re admissibility of evidence of prior violent acts in a Florida self-defense case.

NK

TC-- expanding on your 2:17, the only way the 'background' of either guy gets in is on cross-- or rebuttal if the other side 'opens' the Saint George or Saint Trayvon door. The backgrounds will not admissible 'direct' evidence for either side.

Danube of Thought

"questions on cross don't have to be based relevant admissible evidence."

The information sought by the question must be relevant and admissible, or an objection will be sustained.

Captain Hate

Per Tammy Bruce (who knows nothing about sports) Junior Seau is dead in an apparent suicide.

Thomas Collins

Whoops! Here is the LUN.

Whatever Florida law is, there appears to be a pattern of conduct on my part of forgetting the LUN!

Danube of Thought

"Obviously, we all have to wait for the hearing, but that's the way it looks to me at this point."

We have all known that for a very long time. Surely there is no need for you to repeat it.

dublindave

"Your honor, DumbDouchebagDimbulbDaveyboy has neither confirmed nor denied that he STILL beats his husband. The fact that he won't deny that he still beats his husband, tells us everything we need to know"


Specious reasoning.Very weak.

To be fair and intellectually honest,my statue of limitations arguement doesn't hold up due to recent changes in European law.

Still,George Zimmerman on-line celebrating getting off a potential prison sentence for assaulting a police officer followed several days later by George Zimmerman,on-line, celebrating getting off another possible prison sentence.

Jesus christ this Judge Zimmerman sure has his kids back.

jwest

Judges are people. Once a person has a narrative set in their mind it doesn’t matter what facts are brought forth, what the procedure should be or what the “rule of law” is. Judges believe they attained their position by virtue of their ability to discern the real truth from the myriad of information presented.

Most times, judges come to case without prior knowledge of anything and can make a reasonably independent decision, but in high profile, well publicized cases, they walk in the door with a pre-formed conclusion. If something doesn’t conform to their conclusion, it is overruled or disallowed. If something agrees with what they believe they already know, all the leeway in the world is given.

gus

Yes DouchebagDaveDimwitDickLicker, that was the whole point. You're a fuxing clown. You fancy yourself some erudite Euro-trash genius.

You're a loser.

You're reasoning has no relevance to the court. And Skittles is still dead because of his own stupidit and violence.

Thomas Collins

See LUN for how the Federal Rules of Evidence treats character evidence.

Danube of Thought

See LUN re Junior.

Rob Crawford

Duub, his past statements and actions have no bearing on his claim of self defense.

Thomas Collins

Dublindave, you seem to have some connection to Europe. Tell me, do you think it is healthy for a society when only the police, military and the criminal element possess firearms?

dublindave

You fancy yourself some erudite Euro-trash genius.

I'm not a genius.I never said I was a genius.

AliceH

Federal Rules of Evidence

I did a double take, when I saw the URL pop up with "Rule 404". Heh.

Thomas Collins

Grim news about Seau. I enjoyed his tough play even when he was with the Chargers and disrupting the Patriots' offense.

Thomas Collins

I guess 404 is the 666 of the digital age, AliceH.

Ignatz

--True.But i'm not in your grotesquely over-weight oreo eating country,so by the time you drag me into a court,your sta-oh what's the f**king point.--

I simply assume you're a liar and live in Dublin CA a notion which your pinheaded syntax supports, but even granting what you say, it is quite possible to be sued and notified of the suit and obtain a default judgement when you don't appear. In CA the person then has ten years to collect.

Charlie (Colorado)

How would the state get any of that into an immunity hearing?

By pushing it enough to make it viral and ensure that judge and jury have heard it.

Charlie (Colorado)

True.But i'm not in your grotesquely over-weight oreo eating country,so by the time you drag me into a court,your sta-oh

Actually, a lot of these cases are tried in local courts in the UK and Eire -- and their laws are rather less "liberal" than ours.

Charlie (Colorado)

I'm not a genius.I never said I was a genius.

Nor, I suspect, has anyone else.

Danube of Thought

"Sadly,disgustingly over-weight people and Wal mart aren't the cultural treasures I seek when I got on holiday"

One could always go to Ireland and see the depressed, overweight drunks with horrible teeth that infest the streets of drab shitholes like Dublin and Belfast. A place that produces nothing but alcoholics and terrorists.

What a dump.

Work on those teeth. They really are disgusting.

Steve

"... More excellent Press News: CNN Has Lowest-Rated Month In More Than A Decade In April. ..."

Conservatives should try to buy the CNN network. The selling price might be low considering how low its ad revenue likely is.

Theo

Can someone help me out on the bus driver story? Did TM get into a fight with a bus driver? I seem to recall that he was NOT suspended for that (just a bunch of other stuff). Is there a record of this fight? Or is all we know about it what TM said in the social media? Do we have details about when this was, what it was about, the outcome, the race of the driver, etc.?

Thanks....

Frau Vergissmeinnicht

OT - News from Cleoville:
"May Day-Students speak out;
Pitzer College has its own protests
...'We wanted a local event regarding May Day,' said Marc Lichterman, a 19-year old freshman who helped organize the event.
'My first instinct was to go to L.A., but I wanted to focus on where I live.'
Speakers included Jose Calderon, emeritus professor of sociology and Latin studies, and Dana Ward, a political-studies professor, who talked about the struggles connected to the working class, gave the history of May Day and related it to present issues."
...
Those involved in the college rally called for students to skip classes as part of the May Day general strike. To allow students to participate, some professors canceled Tuesday classes.

Remember: You don't have to go to college. You can go to Pitzer.

Thomas Collins

I'm willing to grant dublindave Euro status even if he is an American. He exhibits attitudes frequently seen in Euros (TherapyState is all, and Americans are grotesque, although somewhat useful in shedding their blood in World Wars and keeping the Sovs at bay so the Euros could experiment with the unsustainable Social State model).

Rob Crawford

Actually, a lot of these cases are tried in local courts in the UK and Eire -- and their laws are rather less "liberal" than ours.

Shhhh...

Ignatz

--Ig-- shall I hold your coat whilst you beat the crap out of this DD thing? I'll be glad to be your self-defense witness.--

--Work on those teeth. They really are disgusting.--

If dave would just give me the opportunity I think I could combine NK's and Dot's suggestions into one lovely trip to the colonies for Davey.

jwest

“I'm not a genius.”

That could be why you’re having trouble fitting in here.

Slartibartfast

We get a great deal of tourism from Great Britain. By appearances, people from that part of the world are eating a lot more than their fair share of deep-fried butter.

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