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May 15, 2012

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Clarice

Alice, your Henri link on the prior thread is hilarious.

I predict if the SCOTUS finds SSM bans unconstitutional they will forever lose the respect of the people and that would be awful because unless we agree on the ct as the final arbiter and respect those decisions even if we disagree with them, the alternative is never ending battles.

MarkO

With eerie prescience I posted something about Obama’s rehabilitation from his seeming gayness on the last thread. And, then, a new gay marriage thread. Good.
Here is the key phrase from Loving v. Virginia (is that a great name for this case or what?) that tells me marriage will be found to be a constitutional right, and that likely will include polygamy and other less militant forms of union.

“These statutes also deprive the Lovings of liberty without due process of law in violation of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men."

Ignatz

--The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.--

Jeez, they're already half way there.

Clarice

Perhaps, Mark, but that would be an error because at the time of Loving no one considered gay marriage even a dim possibility.The ct was assuming marriage between a man and a woman

chris matthews

I'm getting a tingle up my leg with all of this gay marriage talk!

Jane

I agree Clarice. Does the court ever say "this is a states issue so we decline to rule"?

Csnyder

I think it will be worse than the divisiveness of Roe v. Wade. And not because of the effects of any gay marriages on opposite sex marriages. The number of gays is small and the number of gays wanting to marry is even smaller still.

The divisiveness will be in the areas of religious liberty. Many (not all, but many) gay marriage activists really want to change the religious beliefs that proscribe homosexuality for so many denominations. That's the ultimate goal.

MarkO

Clarice, I can't argue that point because you are factually correct. Nevertheless, I remember thinking, when I read the case, in the days of free love (peace) that polygamy had a shot.

I'm only suggesting that there is language on which a decision could rest.

jimmyk

experience will tell whether gay marriage strengthens, weakens or has no effect on marriage

The questions are not just about the impact on marriage, but also on children (gay adoptions, kids with two mommies, etc.). Anyone who claims to know what those impacts are is deluded. It will take generations to assess, and in the meantime those children will be guinea pigs in a grand social experiment.

Janet

The MFM have given themselves another wound....acting like it is a big deal for Obama to be for gay marriage. Where has Obama been?...dancing on Ellen & he didn't know if he was for or against gay marriage? Really? This whole show is absurd....like the Nobel Peace Prize.
It wakes people up to the insanity in the MFM/Dem propaganda machine.

narciso

You know they are such an easy mark, so all you have to say, is you believe in something
and you're already a member of the Tribe, like Jake Sully in Avatar, with the Naa'vi.

You don't actually have to do anything, remarkable,

Captain Hate

Anyone who claims to know what those impacts are is deluded. It will take generations to assess, and in the meantime those children will be guinea pigs in a grand social experiment.

And as with all social science matters, it will have a huge standard deviation so that you can only barely reach general conclusions which don't hold for every case.

Paulo

"Obama campaign: New York Times poll is 'biased'"

"..."We can't put the methodology of that poll aside, because the methodology was significantly biased." Cutter insisted on MSNBC this morning.

When pressed by Todd, Cutter said that she didn't want to bore the viewers with talk of methodology, but repeated that she believed the poll was flawed..."


http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/obama-campaign-new-york-times-poll-biased/543191

Tom Maguire
Anyone who claims to know what those impacts are is deluded. It will take generations to assess, and in the meantime those children will be guinea pigs in a grand social experiment.

Ahh, but it's a Feel Good social experiment so that makes all the difference. Right! Right??

I am having a nanosecond flash of thinking that it would be fun if Obama were re-elected just so we could all hear him explain how surprised he is that, even though he thought this should be a states issue, the Supreme Court took it up.

But the nanosecond has passed.

narciso

I take your David Brooks, 'if needs must,' and raise a Dana Milbank;


http://twitchy.com/2012/05/15/msm-columnists-make-obama-first-president-with-dueling-gender-identities/

AliceH

-- a nanosecond flash of thinking that it would be fun if Obama were re-elected just so we could all hear him explain --

A "Yike!" moment if ever there was one.

This is the sort of idea best left to alternate-history fiction writers.

Ignatz

--The divisiveness will be in the areas of religious liberty. Many (not all, but many) gay marriage activists really want to change the religious beliefs that proscribe homosexuality for so many denominations. That's the ultimate goal.--

Bingo. The result of the leftist belief that the personal is political is that every activity the left engages in is at its heart part of a broader culture war. There is no separation on the left between economic, government, foreign policy and social issues.
And that's why the left cheers whenever people are told to shut up about social issues. Not because they too would like to ignore social issues and concentrate on other things, but because it cedes that portion of the battlefield to them without even a fight.
That it makes the left more powerful to then attack what those who were calling for others to shut up deem important never seems to sink in.
It also seems to seldom dawn on them that the people they just told to shut up might be a bit less enthusiastic about helping them in their fight on their issues.

Sue

Ahh, but it's a Feel Good social experiment so that makes all the difference. Right! Right??

God, I sound like a broken record but...I always remind people of the widows and orphans pension that expanded into welfare as we know it today. Who in their right mind would want to have a child out of wedlock? And it feels so good to help those little children that are born outside of marriage. How'd that work for us?

Janet

This is for daddy -

Dennis and Adam Carolla are performing together this November!

Tickets are on sale this week!

Friday, November 16, 2010
City National Grove of Anaheim
2200 East Katella Avenue
Anaheim, CA 92806
714-712-2700

ON SALE:
Venue Pre-Sale: Thursday, May 17 from 10am to 10pm
Public On Sale: Fri May 18 at noon

Janet

That is Dennis Miller & Adam Carolla.

LouP

Personally I am not against gays, and have recently accpeted the idea that civil unions are probably acceptable. But gay marriage?

No, my problem is the gay activists (and, generally, activists of every kind) who, I believe, have an agenda that includes much more than just co-opting the word "marriage." And I'm stunned that I'm seeing much the same kind of succussful manipulation among heterosexuals - guilt, and obsessive desire to appear to be open-minded - as we've seen over the last few decades being used to push affirmative action agendas. etc. It's the activists pushing these changes, but it's ordinary people who are letting them get away with it.

But, hey, let's all join the activist stampede over the cliff of unintended consequences!

(Ever notice that in all these discussions, there is never a discussion of how over thousands of years every major religion of which I am aware has developed its own ritual and celebration of marriages between men and women? Which just might have something to do with procreation, and how each religion regards the sanctity and responsibility of procreation/marriage...)

Danube of Thought

experience will tell whether gay marriage strengthens, weakens or has no effect on marriage

Undoubtedly. And it will also tell whether it has a corrosive effect on the culture (see, e.g., Roe v. Wade). But the returns won't be in for a long, long time, and the effects, if any, will be debatable (Roe again). And in any event even if they are unambiguously bad there will be no turning back.

Danube of Thought

Raz:

Republicans hold a seven-point lead on the Generic Congressional Ballot for the week ending Sunday, May 12.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 45% of Likely U.S. Voters would vote for the Republican in their district’s congressional race if the election were held today, while 38% would choose the Democrat instead.

narciso

We've seen this story before, the boat sinks, Thelma and Louise don't make it across the canyon, Maximus dies in the Coliseum, why take a chance,

MarkO

Don't forget Henry Blake's vivid crash, followed a short time later by McLean Stevenson's vivid crash.

Porchlight

The questions are not just about the impact on marriage, but also on children (gay adoptions, kids with two mommies, etc.). Anyone who claims to know what those impacts are is deluded. It will take generations to assess, and in the meantime those children will be guinea pigs in a grand social experiment.

With somewhat amazing timing, an acquaintance of mine at the University of Texas has conducted a major study that will be published soon, probably next month. It has the largest sample of any peer-reviewed study to date of children being raised by gay parents.

Gay marriage and gay parenting advocates will not like it at all. I haven't pressed him on the details, but I know that one finding shows that outcomes for children raised by lesbians are on average worse than those for children raised by single moms.

His department is pretty nervous because the blowback will be substantial. But they are supporting him (so far). Thankfully, he has tenure.

Rick Ballard

Porchlight,

Please let us know when it's published. There are certain papers, such as the Emory University collaboration on capital punishment, which have a very strong impact upon the commies ability to push feeler garbage.

Chubby

((Personally I am not against gays, and have recently accpeted the idea that civil unions are probably acceptable. But gay marriage?))

if society has no problem with homosexuality, and thinks of it as par with heterosexuality, which tolerance current society generally upholds, no argument that can be made against gay marriage has a leg to stand on.

Danube of Thought

Please keep us posted, Porch. And I hope your friend is a courageous fellow.

Sue

Obama and Ricky Martin raised $1,000,000 last night. Well short of the 15 mil Clooney raised.

rse

LUN is an outstanding response to the continuing inability of the Chronicle to be honest on why they fired Schaeffer Riley?

That hole just keeps getting deeper.

Chubby

((he questions are not just about the impact on marriage, but also on children (gay adoptions, kids with two mommies, etc.). Anyone who claims to know what those impacts are is deluded. It will take generations to assess, and in the meantime those children will be guinea pigs in a grand social experiment.))

the social consequences of ancient unbridled sexuality were much improved by the introduction of marriage, I'm sure. and in the west, marriage through the ages has become more and more refined. but of course, the left can't think of the past as progressive, only they can be progressive. The irony is that their progressiveness is actually regression, a slippery slope towards polygamy and other forms of marriage that were for the most part outgrown.

Porchlight

I will definitely let you know when it comes out. He's been gearing up for it for a long while, so I think he's ready to hold his ground. Soft-spoken but serious is how I'd describe him.

Chubby

Porch, did he have any biases that you know of, when he started the project, that were affirmed or upset by his findings?

Captain Hate

That hole just keeps getting deeper.

Thanks for that link.

Porchlight

Chubby, I don't know him well enough to say. But he will probably be attacked because he is a Catholic and politically conservative.

It is possible he found what he expected to find. But the left will have a problem painting him as a right-wing hack, because he's been publishing in the mainstream literature for quite awhile. He co-authored a book on premarital sex in America which was published by Oxford University Press, and he has written for Salon in conjunction with that.

Bruce
I haven't pressed him on the details, but I know that one finding shows that outcomes for children raised by lesbians are on average worse than those for children raised by single moms.
Probably showing my prejudices, but I am not surprised. Well, ok, not surprised that outcomes are bad, just that they are worse than for single moms.

Maybe the answer there is that in some cases, and I think that of my kid, their father's were as involved as they could be. I saw mine every other weekend for 15 years, and talked to them every night until HS, when it went to twice a week.

So, maybe the difference is that with straight single moms, some of their kids do have their fathers' as a major in their lives.

Oh, and isn't Hilary Rosen a Lesbian parent?

Jim,MtnView,Ca,USA

"experience will tell whether gay marriage strengthens, weakens or has no effect on marriage"
You might go paw through the archives of the Weekly Standard. Maybe 5 years ago (more?) there was a fellow who published a couple of articles on Scandinavian/North-Euro countries as I recall. Although I don't recall details his conclusion was that marriage was not strengthened.

Porchlight

I think that makes sense, Bruce.

I wonder too if there is long-term emotional confusion resulting from having same-sex parents. A child would wonder where their bio mom (or dad) is and why their parents chose to not let the child have access to that parent.

Adopted children (who know they are adopted) and other children whose bio parent is not in the picture also experience this, of course. But they are told the truth - that their mother or father is not available to them. They are not told that both of the women who are raising them are their mommies (or daddies), a physical impossibility.

Ignatz


--You might go paw through the archives of the Weekly Standard. Maybe 5 years ago (more?) there was a fellow who published a couple of articles on Scandinavian/North-Euro countries as I recall. Although I don't recall details his conclusion was that marriage was not strengthened.-

Stanley Kurtz. A lot of his stuff was at NRO also.

Chubby

Porch, I wish him goodspeed. It takes a lot of moral courage to face the hostility of the elites.

Jim,MtnView,Ca,USA

This is not the article I had in mind, but it does cover the topic. Stanley Kurtz, noting the views of Andrew Sullivan no less.
circa Feb 2004. Well worth a scan, plenty to chew on.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/660zypwj.asp
"... these countries have had something close to full gay marriage for a decade or more. ... by looking closely at [Nordic family pattern] we can answer the key empirical question underlying the gay marriage debate. Will same-sex marriage undermine the institution of marriage? It already has."

Jim,MtnView,Ca,USA

I see Ignatz beat me to it, amazing.
OK, back to the day job....

Porchlight

Thanks, Chubby. I agree and I think we should support courageous academics whenever possible. When this study comes out, I think you will not be able to miss it.

Welterweight


First he's gay, now girlie.

The current issue of Newsweek has a photo of President Obama with a rainbow-colored halo superimposed over his head and the title “The First Gay President.”

Nonsense. Obama is not the first gay president. He is the first female president.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/barack-obama-the-first-female-president/2012/05/14/gIQAViBlPU_story.html

lyle

I don't care if he's first gay president or the first female president or any of the other gushing "firsts" bestowed on him by his fluffer press.

But it is utterly obvious he's the first FRAUD president.

And in an ironic twist, he's as big of a whore as the press is his enabler. Gay marriage is being pushed by an incredibly small and incredibly WHITE, rich group.

Jane

I wonder too if there is long-term emotional confusion resulting from having same-sex parents. A child would wonder where their bio mom (or dad) is and why their parents chose to not let the child have access to that parent.

Or you could simply tell them it takes a man and a woman to have a baby, and here is a picture of the man who donated his sperm to make you, and those are your 1/2 sisters in that picture.

Why on earth is it any different than any other child who doesn't grow up in a house of his biological parents - about 50% I think?

Jane

Porch,

Do you really think gay parents lie to their kids about where they came from? Seriously?

Captain Hate

But it is utterly obvious he's the first FRAUD president.

Exactly; in the spirit of accuracy I've decided to change the "F" in JEF to "Fraud".

Captain Hate

Do you really think gay parents lie to their kids about where they came from? Seriously?

That's not what she said.

sailor

Jane, I have no idea what gay parents tell their children--I have never asked the one gay parent I know who has adopted a child. It's not any of my business to ask. But, I do think once the child starts, say grade school, and has friends over to play that it could be awkward--as in, where is your daddy, etc., etc. Children can be very frank. I do believe it is harder to have two mommies and/or two dads than it is to be a child of a divorced mom who was married to a man.

Gus

I wonder who the first MUSLIM President, OR the first MARXIST President will be.

AliceH

If there is anything approaching a universal truth about children/parents, it has got to be that all children "know" at some point their parents are a)weird b)purposefully embarrassing them in front of their friends and c)someone else's parents are more "cool" than their own.

There may be something to studies or beliefs about impact of gay vs. single vs. traditional parental impact on children, but a child's reported feelings of awkwardness, confusion and embarrassment aren't likely to be measurably compelling differentiators.

lyle

Exactly; in the spirit of accuracy I've decided to change the "F" in JEF to "Fraud".

Thus entered into the Official JOM Shorthand Lexicography.

lyle

I wonder who the first MUSLIM President, OR the first MARXIST President will be.

Whoever that person may be, how would their governance differ exactly from the current prez?

Mark Folkestad

Porchlight, count me as another who is eager to hear more about your associate's results. My only anecdotal evidence is something I've mentioned here before, my old buddy Jeff and his "husband" George, who adopted Willie, a black kid, when Willie was starting grade school. Obviously, Willie never had any illusions about being adopted. When he got into drugs and crime in high school, his life had too many complications to sort out what was the cause of the trouble. I only met Willie once, in Manhattan, eight months before the Islamic Urban Renewal Project. He seemed very happy, and he called me "Uncle Mark", without a hint of anything but good cheer. Many years ago, my lesbian cousin and her girlfriend approached me about helping them to have a child. My cousin had just gone through early menopause, and they wanted a child connected to both of them genetically. So their idea was to use my sperm to inseminate the girlfriend. But they said that the child would never be told who the sperm donor was, and that I could never have any part in the child's life, other than as a cousin of one of his/her mothers. No way was that going to happen. They gave up on the project. Two other cousins who knew about this teased me for years that I would have agreed if the two lesbians hadn't insisted on the insemination being through a clinic. The girlfriend was a very hot redhead. As we Norwegians say, uff da!

Sue

The one lesbian couple I know that have children (one is the birth mother, they have a sperm donor) have male/female roles. Mom, the non-birth mother, is as masculine as any man I know, without the equipment. They like to have their son hang out with male friends so he has a male role model. They get he needs a man in his life.

Extraneus
Obama's plan was to pivot away quickly from this. Hit it, say the words the high-money gay donors want to hear (or at least words they'll accept), and then drop it.

Trouble is, the media loveloveloves gay marriage. So they won't let it move off the front page.

Gus

As much as I am going to enjoy Obama's humiliation in November, I am going to enjoy Axelrod's humiliation equally.
I don't where filth like this comes from.

Jane

But, I do think once the child starts, say grade school, and has friends over to play that it could be awkward--as in, where is your daddy, etc., etc. Children can be very frank. I do believe it is harder to have two mommies and/or two dads than it is to be a child of a divorced mom who was married to a man.

Porch,

All I can speak about is what I've seen and actually been a part of since Amy's 2 kids were born. It is so much harder and more expensive for a gay person to have a child, so think about how much they must plan for it, and think about all those things you worry about. Unlike the HSer who has 3 kids by her senior year with 3 different fathers, these people have to want children an awful lot.

I have never seen one second of awkwardness. If you asked Amy she would say its because so many kids have two fathers or two mothers (at least) because of divorce. And her kids come to her with their questions and she and Mary are utterly and completely honest. Her motto was always that she wanted her kids to hear everything from her first and it certainly seems to have worked out.

I have never heard of a single ramification of having gay parents that has ever surfaced. As I often say Amy is the best parent I've ever seen so she may have an edge.I'm sure there are as many bad gay parents as there are straight parents - which is sort of the point I think.

I grew up in a "broken home" at a time when no homes were broken. The only ramification I can recall from that was a teacher in the 6th grade telling me I probably couldn't help whatever I'd done wrong because I was from a broken home. To this day that pisses me off. I recall not one word from a friend. They simply couldn't care less.

Jane

-I have never asked the one gay parent I know who has adopted a child. It's not any of my business to ask.

Being the busybody I am that would be the first thing I ask.

jimmyk

All I can speak about is what I've seen and actually been a part of

Which gets back to CH's point that there is tremendous variety and it's pointless to generalize based on anecdotes, other than to say that a range of outcomes good and bad are possible in any situation. The advantage of a study like the one porch mentioned is that potentially it looks at a large sample, and more objective measures ("outcomes" usually means things like school performance, income, incidence of pathologies like incarceration, marriage, having children, etc.). I'm sure it will be attacked, and I'm sure it's not flawless, and if it's good it will lead to more studies. Which is why I said we won't have answers for generations.

Personally I think one of the more interesting questions is whether such children grow up to get married and have as many children as others. (I'm sure for some on the left that's an ambiguous or even negative outcome.) It wouldn't surprise me if children of divorced parents have lower numbers. I suspect there are studies on such questions.

Jane

It wouldn't surprise me if children of divorced parents have lower numbers. I suspect there are studies on such questions.

My sister had 4, and I had none, a decision I made at age 7 when my parents ended their marriage. So I guess it hits everyone differently.

Clarice

I expect there are also great differences in the "climate" in small towns vs, big cities and regional differences.

Jane

I really wish I could get Amy to chime in on these issues. She would be a hell of a lot more critical of the gays than I am, and I suspect more credible.

Captain Hate

Mark raises an interesting point in this whole back and forth; namely what type of person could donate his manjuice and blithely have a child running around of which he's blissfully unaware. I have an acquaintance who got artificially inseminated as a single female, over my unrequested but freely given objections, and even she was concerned with what type of person could do that and how would it impact her offspring (and she's just as neurotic of a mother as I predicted), stating that she could never do that. I think Mark Ruffalo portrayed what I would expect a person like that to be in "The Kids Are Alright" keeping in mind that it also corresponded to a scriptwriter's concept.

I think Mark F's reaction is a much more responsible way to be and reflects a deep seated anxiety about not having a bunch of random DNA copies running amok absent any interaction with the literal father.

Jane

There are lots of men who believe in being sperm donors.

Would you be saying these kinds of things if the couple that needed the donation to have kids was straight and related to you?

Clarice

CH, I feel much the same way about having to bear the child of a rape or put it up for adoption. Other peoples mileage may and does vary. It's my DNA damn it.

Captain Hate

Yes, the woman who I referred to is straight so the sexuality of the recipient didn't enter into it. Why did you assume that what I wrote was addressed only to gays?

Captain Hate

I understand and agree with your position, C.

Jane

Because we were talking about gays.

centralcal

Some very interesting statistics on gay marriages over at NRO:

Gay Divorcees

centralcal

A sampling of the statistics I linked in the comment above:

Enthusiasm for marriage is somewhat lopsided by gender. Divorces, too. According to UCLA’s Williams Institute, two-thirds of legally recognized same-sex couples in the United States are lesbian. (Solely on the “marriage” front, in Massachusetts’s first four years, this statistic was 62 percent.) While data in the United States are clearly limited, Scandinavian countries have been at this a little longer. Denmark was the first country to introduce recognition of same-sex partnerships, coining the term “registered partnership” in 1989. Norway followed suit in 1993, and then Sweden in 1995. Again, Stockholm University’s study seems to confirm the American trend. In Norway, male same-sex marriages are 50 percent more likely to end in divorce than heterosexual marriages, and female same-sex marriages are an astonishing 167 percent more likely to be dissolved. In Sweden, the divorce risk for male-male partnerships is 50 percent higher than for heterosexual marriages, and the divorce risk for female partnerships is nearly double that for men. This should not be surprising: In the United States, women request approximately two-thirds of divorces in all forms of relationships — and have done so since the start of the 19th century — so it reasonably follows that relationships in which both partners are women are more likely to include someone who wishes to exit.
jimmyk

In the United States, women request approximately two-thirds of divorces in all forms of relationships — and have done so since the start of the 19th century — so it reasonably follows that relationships in which both partners are women are more likely to include someone who wishes to exit.

I don't think that reasonably follows at all, so it's surprising. One might have thought woman ask for more divorces primarily because the jerk husband is cheating or violent or whatever. On the other hand, I think it's pretty widely accepted that women's affinity for hetero vs. homo is more fickle than men's.

jimmyk

woman -> women

Porchlight

Or you could simply tell them it takes a man and a woman to have a baby, and here is a picture of the man who donated his sperm to make you, and those are your 1/2 sisters in that picture.

That would be an honest approach although it hardly compensates for the loss of that parent in one's life. I doubt most children of gay parents have any relationship with the sperm or egg donor, and I would be willing to bet that most never even see a photo.

The child is deprived of the opposite sex parent by design. It's not like adoptive hetero parents where the bio parents are essentially replaced.

Aside from the child's wondering about the person who fathered them/carried them to term but also consented (sometimes at the adoptive parents' request) to have no relationship with them, there is no one filling that opposite sex parent role that is so pivotal. A male friend of the family dropping by the house once in awhile to be a "role model" doesn't cut it, any more than a dad dropping in for a few hours a month compensates for the lack of a dad the rest of the time.

I am sure that Amy and her partner love their children. I understand that not all hetero parents are perfect, and adoptees of hetero couples can be confused and unhappy, too. And single parenting is incredibly difficult and fraught with problems for children. That doesn't mean that gay parenting, taken as a whole, is "just as good" as children being raised by their married bio parents.

narciso

Sadly, he has left many in the lurch, much like Bill Clinton when he came out for gays in the military, and had to sell for DADT.

That's why I don't get the huzzahs.

Clarice

It's not scientific--just my impression-- but I believe lesbians tend to be less neurotic than gay men and form longer, more solid relationships. Quentin Crisp famously said gay men never are happy because what they most want is a real male to love them and that will never happen.

Jane

That would be an honest approach although it hardly compensates for the loss of that parent in one's life.

Two parents aren't enough?

Porch, I usually agree with much of what you say but what if I were to say to you - "a family where one person travels a lot is not adequate. The children need two parents home every night." You would think I had lost my mind. And how dare I?

That's just not something I could possibly know and to make a value judgment on someone's life because I disagree with how they arrange it strikes me as just wrong.

Should I feel inadequate too because my parents were divorced? Do you look at me as inadequate? Maybe you do, that never occurred to me.

I think people should be allowed to order their lives how they see fit, as long as I don't have to pay for it. And I think really good parents are few and far between and should be celebrated regardless of who they marry.

sailor

Well, Clarice, I will tell you a really bizarre story. An Episcopal priest, a woman, married another woman, and they had a baby--sperm donated by their friend who was a psychiatrist. The baby was Baby Jesus in the Christmas pageant. This happened in a suburb of Chicago. The couple is still together, I think, and raising the Baby Jesus, and the priest is still the head of that church. Being "old-fashioned," I find this really weird, and I think most of the congregation finds it weird, too.

Porchlight

Should I feel inadequate too because my parents were divorced? Do you look at me as inadequate? Maybe you do, that never occurred to me.

Of course I don't. You are a wonderful person. But that doesn't lead me to the conclusion that because wonderful people can come from divorced families, divorce must be just as good or better than happy marriage.

Two parents aren't enough?

The optimal situation is the mother and the father raising the children in a married, loving, stable household. That's all I'm trying to say.

Of course good parenting should be celebrated. I've long appreciated your confidence in and advocacy for Amy's family. I think it's admirable.

Mark Folkestad

I believe that Jane's question about feeling the same if the couple needing a sperm donor happened to heterosexual instead of homosexual was directed to me, as well as CH. It is a completely fair and reasonable question. I will admit that there is an added negative in my mind with the homosexual couple, because I have sincere reservations about potential harm to the child. But I would also refuse to cooperate if a heterosexual couple would not allow me some small role in the child's life. Bringing new life into the world is not a casual thing for me. And, being a genealogist and history buff, I would not want the child of my flesh to be deprived of his/her rightful heritage. I've known too many people who've felt the hunger for missing parts of their lives. I've helped three people heal deep emotional wounds by locating a long-missing father in one case and reuniting two siblings with their grandmother, uncles, aunts, half-siblings and cousins (in lieu of the deceased father) in the other case. Regarding my lesbian cousin and her partner's request, I considered them unfit for parenthood. My cousin is domineering and harsh, and she had a very negative influence on her younger brother. Her partner is a narcissistic spoiled brat, a Mafia princess exiled to Minnesota by her New Jersey family for embarrassing them with her lesbian orientation. We aren't talking about a couple like Amy and her partner.

I have had some regrets over my refusal to be a sperm donor. My ex, Linda, and I lost two children to early miscarriage. I always wanted children. My girlfriend in Oregon has apparently dumped me for the final time, and I had joyously agreed to her wish for starting her second family. So a man who loves children will die childless, and the genetic gifts God granted me will not be passed along.

centralcal

I believe lesbians tend to be less neurotic than gay men and form longer, more solid relationships.

A few hours ago, I would definitely have said ditto to that remark, Clarice. That is why I posted the above link to and excerpt of data that surprised me completely.

daddy

Sounds like Obama ought to change his re-election slogan from "Forward" to "Brave New World."

Jane

And now to turn 180 degrees - Obama's being a homosexual is hurting him with low information voters who now think he is gay. (Okay stupid voters). And I'm very happy to celebrate that.

Captain Hate

Should I feel inadequate too because my parents were divorced? Do you look at me as inadequate?

Of course not but I think you've been deprived of something you deserved. Different people react in different ways and it doesn't seem like your experience has kept you from living a very fulfilling life. Buy it was something in your life you had to figure out how to deal with, whether you consciously realized it or not.

Back to the topic of not knowing your biological parents: Some adopted people have two loving adopted parents yet have an insatiable desire to find their real parents. I knew of somebody to whom that happened a few years ago when a child of an ex girlfriend given up for adoption showed up one day. Other children couldn't care less about it, at least give no outward expression of it. But it's a driving need for a lot of people and not being able to satisfy it won't have positive consequences.

Clarice

CC, I find that data astonishing. It seems so contrary to my experience.

Ignatz

--I believe lesbians tend to be less neurotic than gay men and form longer, more solid relationships.--

Problem is everybody 'believes' this or that from the people they know, which tends to be somewhat less than representative of the population as a whole.

Personal anecdotal extrapolation is just as likely to misinform as confirmation bias.

Clarice

I certainly concede that, Iggy. I wonder if the experience of long term couples (gay v. lesbian) n th eUS matches the Scandinavian experience.

Jane

Of course not but I think you've been deprived of something you deserved.

Capn'

I'm of the school of thought that says adversity gives you a leg up. I always had to work so I always knew how to work. I think kids in ideal homes often grow up without the work ethic and other things they need for success.

It's ridiculous to say I deserve anything - except maybe the freedom to make it on my own. You make your own breaks in this life.

I don't know a lot of perfect parents. A lot are just good enough. That's just the way it is. I do not think for one second that who you marry determines whether you are a good parent. Some parents have more hurdles to make sure their kids are as normal as possible. NOthing wrong with that.

As for adoptive parents, I think open adoptions are a good thing. If the alternative is to grow up in an orphanage or be aborted or have a longing to find your real parents, I'll go with the latter.

Captain Hate

It's ridiculous to say I deserve anything - except maybe the freedom to make it on my own. You make your own breaks in this life.

It's admirable for you to feel that way but I know that I benefited from having a father to look up to and providing a good example of a persevering spirit and work ethic overcoming the lack of a formal education to make a success of oneself. Even though I didn't follow the same path, his example kept me from feeling sorry for myself when things didn't work out well for me and just keep working harder and smarter. I don't know how I would've done without his presence; I only know what happened.

Jane

We all capitalize on what we have - or not. That's the whole point of this country. Have you read Clarence Thomas ' book cap'n?

Manuel Transmission

Looking at this discussion as a whole, I see a Charles Murray Bell Curve in the making. A big enough study and you get median blacks at one std dev below the overall mean even though you personally don't know anyone that fits that situation. So what do you do in a free society? Do you abort Downs babies?

Not having a dog in this fight, I can only see a pecking order for preferring straight parents in an adoption over gays, but not much else as a rule of law. Social norms may dictate other preferences, but I'm not sure the state should have a say.

Captain Hate

Have you read Clarence Thomas ' book cap'n?

No but I'm sure it's about how he made it with no input from either parent, which I haven't denied can be done. We seem to be talking past each other.

Jane

Cap'n,

I'm happy you had a great father, and that he helped shape your life.

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