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May 21, 2012

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Ignatius J Donnelly

I'll give you another example.
GZ at the bond hearing;
"I didn't know he was 17, I thought
he was my age." In the call to the police on
the fateful night, GZ refers to TM as a kid and describes him as a teenager.
Shall I go on?
Look, GZ had a C&C permit. He had a right to get out of his truck. He had a right to speak to TM and/or to "profile." He had the right to defend himself. The police thought
his injuries did not seem bad enough to match to his version of events, no Fat lips loose or missing teeth, no sub orbital blow outs or broken cheekbones, no injuries that sould be seen on someone who was lying on their back with nowhere for their head to snap back when it is struck repeatedly and then there's the smothering,the pinning his shoulders down with kness and the B movie wrasslin' for the gun.
GZ didn't catch TM. TM caught GZ. There was an exchange and then a physical fight. TM got the better of the fight and snd got shot for his efforts. GZ seeme to do a pretty good job of covering up and hanging on for dear life. Look at it from GZ's perspective.
He shot someone and instictively spun the events his way. It is human nature.
Eventually the police and the attornies came to the conclusion that his account was close enough to the evidence that he not be charged. Then came Crump and the PR campaign.

Ignatz

I'll take that long non sequitor as an admission you don't know that Zimmerman has denied there was a verbal discussion or altercation before the physical assault.

Ignatius J Donnelly

Zimmerman was apparently interviewed for several hours by the police.
How do you know what he mentioned to them?


Well, if what his Father and Brother heard from him is any indication, GZ did not argue with TM. He simply stated that he had no problem, reached for his phone and WHAMO he was on his back.

Ignatius J Donnelly

Does anyone know if the flashlight that was found at the scene belonged to GZ?(not his key chain flashlight.)

Ignatius J Donnelly

I'll take that long non sequitor as an admission you don't know that Zimmerman has denied there was a verbal discussion or altercation before the physical assault


Non typing maybe but nothing wrong with the sequence. C'mon Iggie, enough with the lawyerly responses and the ad hominem attacks. I asked a question and as is your custom you answered a different question.
I'm sorry. I don't see GZ as the John Brown
of gun control. Nor do I see TM as the Boogie Man personified. So shoot me.

Ignatz

Identify a single ad hominem 'attack' or fallacy in anything I've posted to you.

--I asked a question and as is your custom you answered a different question.--

Not only is that not my custom it did not occur in this case.
You asked how O Mara would deal with this alleged 'gilding of the lily' by his client. I pointed out the assumption in your question is unwarranted and unknowable at this point, and you have supplied no evidence to the contrary (although you did supply some that Zim's father and brother indicate he has acknowledged words were exchanged prior to the assault).
That's not answering a different question, it's pointing out the original one was based on a dubious assumption.

AliceH

Also, why assume the yelling/arguing couldn't have occurred after the sucker punch?

Ignatius J Donnelly

Also, why assume the yelling/arguing couldn't have occurred after the sucker punch?


The phone records for one.
Phone call with Dee Dee ends at around 7:15:40 TM's headphones were in his pocket when the police arrived after the shooting, So he hung up and put his headphones in his pocket at some point before the fight.At 7:16:11 the FIRST 911 call comes in with loud screaming being heard in the background.
Any verbal exchange that happpened before the screaming for help had to have happened in that thirty second window before audio exists of Gz's screaming. There are certain time constraints here. If these standards can be applied to Dee Dee, they can be applied to GZ.

Ignatius J Donnelly

Not only is that not my custom it did not occur in this case.
You asked how O Mara would deal with this alleged 'gilding of the lily' by his client. I pointed out the assumption in your question is unwarranted and unknowable at this point, and you have supplied no evidence to the contrary (although you did supply some that Zim's father and brother indicate he has acknowledged words were exchanged prior to the assault).
That's not answering a different question, it's pointing out the original one was based on a dubious assumption.


Well, I brought this up before but I will repeat it for you.

In the call to police on the night of the shooting GZ describes TM as a teenager and later refers to him as a kid. In his apology to the Martin's GZ stated that he did not know TM was so young. "I thought he was around my age." Yes, O'Mara needs to keep GZ on a short leash.

Ignatius J Donnelly

yes, I can see that I put an apostrophe in Martins. Sheesh!

AliceH

Oh. I'm not finding Dee Dee's testimony very credible. I would not rely on her sharing events she heard if, say, she heard Tray say he was going to thump GZ, or heard the sound of a (sucker) punch, following by an argument, after which point the call ended and Tray put the headphones in his pocket.

I don't say that happened, I'm just saying it could easily have happened AND DeeDee would not mention it.

Ignatz


--Well, I brought this up before but I will repeat it for you.

In the call to police on the night of the shooting GZ describes TM as a teenager and later refers to him as a kid. In his apology to the Martin's GZ stated that he did not know TM was so young. "I thought he was around my age." Yes, O'Mara needs to keep GZ on a short leash.--

That's not in the form of a question Alex, but it sure is a different subject than you accused me of not answering.
Goalposts moving much?

Ignatius J Donnelly

It wasn't a question.
You don't answer questions. My question was
The prosecution obviously thinks they have some inconsistant Zimmerman statements.
The apology could be an example.
How could or how should O'Mara handle this?

Ignatius J Donnelly

Clarence Darrow,
I'm not sure why this question is so objectionable. Is it because to answer would be to admit that GZ is stretching the truth a bit? Where are the other attornies?
How would YOU handle a client who tells a story(ies) which can vary somewhat but are still close to the truth? For example, a client who embellishes the story thinking it will help their case when the embellishment makes the story less credible.

Ignatz

--It wasn't a question.
You don't answer questions.

Posted by: Ignatius J Donnelly | May 22, 2012 at 12:57 PM--

--I'm not sure why this question is so objectionable.

Posted by: Ignatius J Donnelly | May 22, 2012 at 01:10 PM--

I wish you'd make up your mind whether you asked a question or not.

--Is it because to answer would be to admit that GZ is stretching the truth a bit? ....... For example, a client who embellishes the story thinking it will help their case when the embellishment makes the story less credible.--

We are not yet privy to information with which we can judge whether or not he has embellished his story or has stretched the truth. Those are your suppositions which make your question a pointless hypothetical but you treat it as though it is a question of fact. It's not, but for whatever reason you refuse to acknowledge that.

Walter

IjD, I tell my clients to tell the truth. If the story varies a bit but none of the variations are inconsistent with other evidence, I prep for cross-examination by reviewing every version available and look for reasonable explanations.

If there were inconsistencies with the other evidence, I'd explore TM (the good one)'s suggestion that an expert witness evaluate whether concussion or PTSD played a role.

I might even see if I could get Scooter's memory expert--he may have done enough additional work to make his testimony more likely to be admissible.

Ignatius J Donnelly

Thanks Walter.
Ignatz,
We have been privy to quite a bit of info.
As cboldt said, there have been so many leaks
it is difficult to guess what the prosecution has that we have not already heard.

GED Online

AWESOME!! nice informative site.

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