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May 15, 2012

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bgates

The list includes new video evidence from the night of the shooting — both from the 7-Eleven store

Unless that tape shows Zimmerman holding a sign up to the camera that reads "I'm going to kill that kid later", I don't see how it can be relevant.

lyle

"I'm going to kill that kid later"

I'm sure Holder has already uttered these exact words.

Gus

They are doubling down on the RACE angle. This will not end nicely.
Maybe they could time the acquittal riots with Obama's shitcanning in November. That way we could have just one set of inner city burnings, not 2.

Chubby

there was a story on Drudge yesterday that O'Mara has received a credible death threat.

Danube of Thought

It's simply "foundational." It establishes where he was not long before the event, and limits the amount of time when he might have been up to no good.

lyle

OK, maybe not exact but something awfully similar.

NK

The Witness List? any bombshells? I doubt it? how does the State prove Murder 2 beyond a reasonable doubt? Pick a jury hostile to GZ and roll the dice. That's Corey's plan? Nice, nice way to administer justice.

AliceH

It seems that the "Public has a right to know" media argument falls short of having the media provide a link to this 8-page document they obtained.

Theo

Mary Cutcher is I think the blonde. She wanted to be on TV a lot saying how she thought GZ was guilty and the police were covering up for him. Her actual first hand evidence was close to zero. She heard screaming that stopped when the shot was fired. After the shooting, she saw GZ on top of Trayvon. This has little relevance not only because it was AFTER the shooting, but because Trayvon was shot in the chest and died, per the NYT "face down in the grass." Hence, he was not shot in the back and he was presumably not shoot while underneath GZ.

Theo

"shoot" = "shot" but you knew that.

Kathy Kattenburg

"I have read (Jeff Lipkes, American Thinker) that the 7-Eleven tape runs from 6 PM to 6:30 PM, which means Martin took a looong walk home."

Ooooh, suspicious! But I must say, given the criticism I took for using the left-wing Mother Jones as a source, I am impressed indeed to see that you practice what you preach by using the right-wing "American Thinker" as a source.

daddy

Just to make it Official:

The New England Historical Genealogical Society, which originally announced they found evidence of Elizabeth Warren’s Native American heritage, said today they have discovered no documentation to back up claims that she is 1/32 Cherokee.

“We have no proof that Elizabeth Warren’s great great great grandmother O.C. Sarah Smith either is or is not of Cherokee descent."

Paging Clarence Page...

NK

Lizzie is a fraud who gamed the AA system to get jobs she couldn't get on merit. everyone knows that now.

Theo

NK --

Is she going to stay in the race? One would think that the Dems would try to find someone else rather than carry this fraud around for the next five months.

NK

I hope Lizzie stays in the race-- she loses.

Jd

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/

this site has a lot of info on the Zimmerman/Martin case.

Extraneus

Torricelli wasn't taken out until October 2nd.

Danube of Thought

Kathy, be honest: you took a great deal of criticism here for repeatedly saying alarmingly stupid things.

Danube of Thought

I don't know the practice in FL, bit in CA you put tons of people on your witness list whom you are exteremely unlikely ever to call.

NK

DoT@251-- I think that's right, the State puts lots of names on the witness list to make the defense track down useless info and waste valuable time. I assume thats SOP in most jurisdictions, probably especially Florida.

Theo

NK --

It is not just to fake out the other side. Part of why you do it is to cover yourself in case the case takes some unexpected twist or turn.

Danube of Thought

In CA it is tough to call a witness in your case-in-chief if you haven't listed him, plus there is no prnalty for padding the list. So everybody does it.

cboldt

Y'all can peek at the list too. Somebody (not me) stuffed a copy at scribd.

State's List of Witnesses and Evidence in Zimmerman Case

Tom Maguire

From Ms. KaKa:

But I must say, given the criticism I took for using the left-wing Mother Jones as a source, I am impressed indeed to see that you practice what you preach by using the right-wing "American Thinker" as a source.

Hmm, I have linked to Mother Jones myself for some of their material on this topic. As to practicing what I preach, I know we all eagerly await your link to my preaching on that topic.

But since you ask, it is factually indisputable that I read that the 7-Eleven tape covered 6-6:30. Hence the cite and the source. As to whether I believe it, why would I (or anyone checking the link) take on faith that the 7-Eleven system is indisputably accurate to the half-hour?

But the police do have a tape, and that timing tidbit is floating around out there, so I figure people can make of it what they will.

FWIW, the 'Mother Jones' reference seems to dat eback to this dust-up in late April:

I posted a link to the most comprehensive source of information on the Trayvon Martin case that you will find anywhere on the Internet...

Well, it is a source.

NK

Theo- sure, but that rarely happens. the State makes up its theory, nice and tidy, and rarely do they want to improvise. But sure, not on the list, not available as a trial witness, unless -- at least-- good cause shown to add them, so list them, as DoT says, it doesn't cost anything.

cboldt

Cutcher is not W6. W6 gave a written statement on 26 February, and SPD wrote that Cutcher did not give a written statement - unless the state's witness list incorrectly attributes Cutcher as giving a statement for her zoomin' room mate.

Interesting that not all of the W1-W22 unnamed witnesses gave statements of any kind, audio or written. W4, W7, W10 on-scene.

Also interesting that a couple of the unnamed "witnesess" (in addition to W5 aka DeeDee) were not interviewed until weeks after the shooting. W21, W22, and "Brandy."

Clarice

DoT"I don't know the practice in FL, bit in CA you put tons of people on your witness list whom you are exteremely unlikely ever to call"

Same thing in D.C. The point is to make your opponent do a lot of unnecessary work. Also, during trial, list a lot of people you plan to call whom you've no intention of calling to wear your opponent down. Sometimes people go too far and the court makes them pare it down.

In any event I have not read a single new-probative- thing in this list the prosecution provided.

Tom Maguire
Unless that tape shows Zimmerman holding a sign up to the camera that reads "I'm going to kill that kid later", I don't see how it can be relevant.

So you are giving up on the idea that he is doing the Dougie with Kate Upton while brandishing his KelTec 9? That woulda gone viral.

Ranger

Hmmm... not sure where to put this, but Drudge just posted a link to this article:

Fordham piece called Warren Harvard Law's 'first woman of color'

Yep, they actually used that phrase.

cboldt

Just keep in mind that this is a discovery witness list, not a trial witness list. Still, it seems odd to me that Corey would entertain Owens and Primeau as witnesses at all. What'd she do, build her case from press accounts?

I may have missed it because I don't click on all the links that Maguire thoughtfully provides, but I ran into Primeau's Expert Opinion on his own website, and think it's a gold mine for ridicule.

MarkO

I just checked whitehouse.gov, Obama's on the list.

NK

Clarice-- 2 things, your DC experience with witness lists is what I've seen. "Probative" witnesses. NO Bombshells in the list I agree with that, BUT-- Corey has listed --apparently-- every law enforcement officer/official who ever had anything to do with the case. My guess-- she's planting the seed that GZ told various versions of the events to various cops, and therefore he's an unreliable witness so he must be guilty. That's her case for Murder 2? How does she sleep at night.

Appalled

cboldt:

I thought DeeDee was W8, not W5. (W8 is the only one with a statement taken by Crump, which was the tell.)

NK

Statement taken by Crump? has the State disclosed that statement to the Defense?

Clarice

Of course, Corey based her charge on the media reports. Where else did she get that business about "profiling " frm.

Ignatz

--So you are giving up on the idea that he is doing the Dougie with Kate Upton while brandishing his KelTec 9? That woulda gone viral--

I would like to note that Kate Upton reference would sail harmlessly over the head of many of the JOM readership without some regular's dogged pursuit of the truth and magnanimous posting of the results.

AliceH

LOL, MarkO!

cboldt

Yes, Appallled, you are right. DeeDee is W8. I was thinking maybe Cutcher is W5. One of these days I'll combine DeeDee with the state's witness descriptions, and come up with WD40.

Owen and Primeau are listed a Category B, which means they are not Category A or C, and not being in Category A, they are not ...

(b)(1)(A)(i)Category A (7) expert witnesses who have not provided a written report and a curriculum vitae or who are going to testify.

The FBI audio fellows are in the same boat, but they did submit a report, and that report is now a public record.

Category C is also "no plan to call at trial" or "involvement with and knowledge of the case is fully set out in a police report or other statement furnished to the defense."

GMAX

OT but get a load of this! Here:

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 45% of Likely U.S. Voters would vote for the Republican in their district’s congressional race if the election were held today, while 38% would choose the Democrat instead.

Can you say blowout? I knew you could.

MJW

I thought DeeDee was W8

That's what I thought, too. Perhaps it was a typo in cboldt's comment.

Jane

HOwie Carr is reporting some guy reported to someone that Blond hair blue eyed Lizzie was the first person of color hired by Harvard. They were bragging about it.

I'v got all of her colors, where is my stuff?

She is going down.

NK

W8-- statement from "Private Attorney" Crump-- well that sticks out like a sore thumb. Det Serino filed 4 reports totalling more than 30 pages. Looks like he is an important State witness.

Ranger

Jane, check up thread. I posted a link to the politico story on it. It's pretty funny really to see her refered to in print as "a woman of color."

daddy

A question for our Legal Team.

What specifically prevents an adopted member of a Native American TRibe from voting in US Elections?

For instance lets assume that Liz Warren's Mexican neighbor has zero Indian blood in her, but for whatever reason a Native American tribe wishes to consider her a member of their tribe.

This opinion piece today from "Indian Country" a Native American Blog, has the following piece: What’s the Deal With Elizabeth Warren, Cherokee?

"The Supreme Court has ruled that Indian rights are not superior rights and do not violate the constitutional rights of non-Indians; they simply are different."

"The Supreme Court ruled in the 1974 Mancari case that the Indian-preference hiring among qualified candidates in the Bureau of Indian Affairs was not race-based, but political (federal-tribal and tribe-citizen relationships): “The preference, as applied, is granted to Indians not as a discrete racial group, but rather, as members of quasi-sovereign tribal entities whose lives and activities are governed by the BIA in a unique fashion.”

Would Liz's illegal alien neighbor, considered under official Tribal adoption procedure to be a Legitimate Tribal member, now be eligible to vote in the US Presidential Election?

This link, from The American Indian College Fund web page has the following: Congress passed The Indian Citizenship Act in 1924, declaring American Indians citizens of the United States. As a result, American Indians then had the right to vote in national elections.

I suspect there must be a simple answer out there stating why this is not allowed, otherwise I suppose there'd be pay voting booths on reservations all along our southern border and the Dream Act would be the least of our political worries.

Anyone know the simple answer to this?

Some guy

"You know, if I had audio expert, he would look like Tom Owen..."

Jane

I just saw that Ranger. Thanks. Pretty funny isn't it?

NK

Ranger-- Lizzie spokeswoman today AGAIN said Lizzie is proud of her Cherokee ancestry -- ON THE DAY, their hired hand geneoligist says they found no evidence of such ancestry. This manhands character is toughing it out -- all the way to losing in November.

MJW

I noticed that the audio "experts," Owen and Primeau, are listed as Category B witnesses. I find that surprising, given that Category A includes "expert witnesses who have not provided a written report and a curriculum vitae or who are going to testify to test results or give opinions that will have to meet the test set forth in Frye v. United States, 293 F. 1013 (D.C. Cir. 1923)." I don't see how they could be witnesses unless their testimony meets the Frye test used in Florida for scientific testimony.

Ranger

BTW, Gallup/USA Today poll finds a similar move towards the GOP at the congressional level (via Hot Air):

USA Today/Gallup poll shows voters more optimistic about economy under Romney than Obama

For the first time during this campaign cycle, the GOP has an advantage in congressional elections. By 50%-44%, those surveyed say they’re likely to vote for the Republican congressional candidate.

And if this is accurate, Obama is in very deep trouble:

In the poll, 55% say the economy would get better over the next four years if Romney was elected, compared with 46% who say it would improve if Obama was re-elected. Twenty-seven percent say the economy would get worse in a Romney first term, compared with 37% who say that of an Obama second term.

Jane

GMAX,

Just like with DOT's dailt tracking poll, I love getting your daily dose of optimism.

AliceH

Take a look at page 7 of the scribd doc linked by cboldt. It says, "I HERBY CERTIFY that a copy of the foregoing has been furnished...".

Well! Just who is this "HERBY" character? :-)

jimmyk

Pick a jury hostile to GZ and roll the dice. That's Corey's plan? Nice, nice way to administer justice.

What do I know, but I would advise GZ to waive trial by jury. There goes the plan.

jimmyk

Cutcher is the ditz who said in a TV interview that Trayvon was a "little boy... half Zimmerman's size." That tells you how much she actually saw. Her 15 minutes is long gone.

NK

JimmyK- waive jury trial? that goes against the probabilities of at least getting a hung jury by a single holdout. To do that, you'd have to have real confidence in Judge Lester's guts to acquit.

daddy

"I'v got all of her colors, where is my stuff?"

Jane,

You have to also have "An Indian In The Cupboard."

How's your stash of Twinkies and Velveeta?

Jack is Back

Crump was present but the interview was conducted by de la Rionda and Investigator O'Steen.

The mystery witness is W18 who was interviewed by a private investigator John Wright on 3/26 after Mead and Serino of SPD interviewed on 2/26. Its a 911 caller and the interview is not recorded but in writing.

How come Chief Bill Lee isn't on the witness list?

Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet

W 8 is also the only W whose cell phone records are among the disclosed real evidence. Another tell that it is DD.

Also interesting: W 18, a 911 caller, was also interviewed by a private investigator, one John Wright, on March 16.

Clarice

I'd go for a judge only trial, too.

First, I;d arue that the jury pool is tainted and move for a change of venue--to say the Panhandle. If that loses I'd take my chance with the judge.

daddy

Dennis Miller doing a great job of playing clips of Chris Matthews from Jeopardy and from his MSNBC TV Show, to allow Matthew's himself to beautifully illustrate what a total moron he is.

Dennis is really hammering home how Matthew's is so disparaging of everybody else's intellect and here he comes off as a total moron.

"Delicious", says Dennis. Ha!

Clarice

I think Chris is really regretting going on that show. But did anyone here think he was more than a moron?

NK

Clarice-- In the last 25 years or so, cops indicted in the NY Metro area have regularly used a bench trial in controversial shooting cases. That has worked out well for cops being hung out to dry in 'political' prosecutions. But those are cops, who judges have a natural sympathy for, GZ?

Jack is Back

Clarice's 3:53 pic:

matt

I am thinking of applying to one of the more ecumenical tribes for membership. Not sure how that might stand up.

I could then go back to my family's ancestral lands (Brooklyn, Lower Manhattan) and establish a small reservation, say the size of a refurbed tenement in Alphabet City.

Said reservation could then apply for exemption from state regulatory supervision and I could sell smokes, fireworks, and operate a casino.

The way I see it it's a natural. I could employ 20-30 staff and invite has - been bands to play in our rooftop lounge.

I think Elizabeth Warren might be forced to take the case on on moral grounds. Tribal solidarity and all that.

Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet

From the GZ witness and evidence list, we now know for sure there are photos of both GZ and TM at the scene of the alleged crime. Also, the autopsy report is included.

GMAX

Well I was taught that white is the combinations of all colors while black is the absence of color, so maybe that is what Harvard meant? Cuz I got to say, Lizzie is as white bread as they come...

MJW

Other expert witnesses who clearly must meet the Frye test, such as the DNA expert, are also listed in Category B. I think they should be Category A. If I get a chance later, I'll see if I can find any Florida caselaw on the issue.

AliceH

MJW - I think you highlighted the wrong part of Category A to get to how Owen and Primeau wound up identified as Category B (which is Not A and Not C). That is, Category A includes "expert witnesses who have not provided a written report and a curriculum vitae".

I'm looking at Rule 3.220(b) - includes the following under 1996 amendment:
"Category B witnesses are subject to deposition only upon leave of court. Category B witnesses include, but are not limited to, witnesses whose only connection to the case is the fact that they are the owners of property; transporting officers; booking officers; records and evidence custodians; and experts who have filed a report and curriculum vitae and who will not offer opinions subject to the Frye test. "

cboldt

-- Crump was present but the interview was conducted by de la Rionda and Investigator O'Steen. --

W8 has two entries. Each entry represents an interview or statement. The Crump-related "recorded affidavit" is undated in the summary, but we know it is around March 23rd, IIRC. Separately, Corey's team of crack investigators interviewed DeeDee.


We are getting closer to seeing the Serino Affidavit.

cboldt

-- Other expert witnesses who clearly must meet the Frye test, such as the DNA expert, are also listed in Category B. I think they should be Category A. --

The state isn't anticipating any DNA evidence being useful to the prosecution at trial.

cboldt

Same remark relating to DNA pertains to "trace evidence" which I take as probing the proximity of the muzzle blast to the participants. The Trace evidence person is a "B" witness, which leads me to believe their report is embodied in one or more of the police reports. Also, that the person is not an "A" witness leads me think the state is going to stipulate quite a few facts that are helpful to Zimmerman.

As for trial to a judge, Zimmerman will get exactly that/. If my prediction is correct, that Lester finds the use of deadly force was justified under the circumstances, the case is over before a jury is sworn in for voir dire.

matt

I'm getting all tingly again! Newsweek released all of the alternative covers for the Obama gay presidente cover.

There are rainbows and I even thought I saw a unicorn, or was that a hermaphrodite? LUN

Jack is Back

Well, the surprise to the local TV crime reporters is the existence of the other camera tape. It is from the clubhouse. If it is anything like our cameras in my community, It is most likely pointed toward the entrance gate for access control and recording. I will be surprised that it is pointed down the road to the mail boxes where GZ was to have left his truck. Plus it was dark and rainy that evening. If anything it shows the time someone in hoodie walked into the community that evening. Also, it may show GZ's truck at one time.

Also, of interest are the interviews with nine witnesses as a result of the various 911 calls. I don't think there were 9 different 911 calls so these must be duplicate witnesses (husband/wife, roomates, the Kid/Mom etc.) right?

Ranger

Yes Jane, very funny. I can just see a campaign ad with the words "Woman of Color?" over her lilly white face.

Clarice

Repeat post--Marisa DeFranco just announced she's running in the primary against warren:Legal Insurrection.

MJW

AliceH, the key word in the Category A expert witness test is "or." Witnesses are Category A if either they haven't given a written report or CV or their testimony must meet the Frye test, Likewise, they are Category B if they have given a written report and CV and their testimony doesn't need to meet the Frye test.

Cboldt, the witness list is of state witnesses. Since the DNA expert is on the list, the state is reserving the right to call him on direct. If they do call him, his testimony must meet the Frye test.

NK

MJW/Anybody-- what is the motion practice timing? Defense motions to dismiss, Immunity, change venue etc?

narciso

Didn't Trayvon come up through the south east entrance, so I don't know how much view of the two will be seen initially,

Jane

Repeat post--Marisa DeFranco just announced she's running in the primary against warren:Legal Insurrection.

As I understand it she has always been running. There were a dozen or so others vying for the nomination who all dropped out when Lizzie declared herself queen, but DeFranco stayed. Smart lady.

Jack is Back

Horray for Elizabeth Hassellbeck

Instead of pandering like the rest of The View, she asked the most relevant of all election year questions and kept her focus on what Mitt and the RNC have to also with laser-vision.

MJW

NK, I wish I understood Florida procedures. They seem very haphazard to me. We still haven't heard anything more on the defense demand for a statement of particulars.

cboldt

Pretrial motions are supposed to be made and disposed of by the date of "Docket Sounding." Docket sounding in this case is set for August 8th. I assume either side can move to continue that.

Tom Maguire
W8-- statement from "Private Attorney" Crump-- well that sticks out like a sore thumb.

Just to ice the lily, later we see that cell phone records for GZim, Martin, and W8 are provided (2/26 to 4/2/2012 in the case or W8).

Tom Maguire
Also interesting: W 18, a 911 caller, was also interviewed by a private investigator, one John Wright, on March 16.

A private investigator hired by whom? I don't recall GZim having an attorney at that point (the 911 calls went public and the case took off on 3/17).

Crump might well have had a PI on this, but how did they get the 911 call logs? Well, the calls were made public the next day, so maybe that way.

And why would the prosecutor have a witness interviewed up by the defense anyway? Either I have total brain lock, or that is a Crump PI, or... total long shot - the 911 caller was visiting from out of state so some local investigator (nor a cop?) interviewed the person back in Idaho, or wherever. Baffling.

NK

TomM-- W-8 DeeDee, wasn't she always "crump's witness" under his control, rather than the State's witness?

cboldt

The PI, John Wright, is local Florida.

Link to Central Florida News 13 Document Repository, maybe a more timely alternative to the court website.

centralcal

No link up yet, just this tweet:

Matt Gutman ‏ @mattgutmanABC
@ABC exclusive: medical report from morning after Zimmerman shot #Trayvonmartin. Show he had broken nose, swollen face blck eyes. 2 cuts

Jack is Back

John Wright is in Sanford. Has a PI offie there.

But it is interesting that his interview was done 20 days after the interview of the same witness by the SFP. No other 911 witnesses were interviewed by him.

cboldt

That's so exclusive that even Corey's team of crack inventigators didn't have it until the defense forked it over.

Redbrow

Is Corey leaking out Zimmerman's medical records to select media before they are posted on the court site?

Andrea Smith ‏ @abcandrea
Watch ABC 4 latest RT @senijr_ABC: #Zimmerman medical report the morning after shooting death of #Trayvon tonite exclusively on world news

http://twitter.com/#!/search/%23ZIMMERMAN?q=%23ZIMMERMAN

Jack is Back

OT: Catholic university, Franciscan Universtity of Steubenville have dropped student medical insurance as a result of the HHS mandate.

Canary in the mine shaft?

Redbrow

ABC Matt Gutman is Julison's right hand man!

Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet

I found this on a website for a young guy who is running for prosecutor in Sanford.

John Wright, Jr | April 1, 2012 at 10:57 pm | Reply
Mr. Vescio,

You have my vote. Anything I can do please do not hesitate to contact me. John Wright, Private Investigator (407) 341-5832

Redbrow

ABC News Exclusive: Zimmerman Medical Report Shows Broken Nose, Lacerations After Trayvon Martin Shooting

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532#.T7LSI-21lYI

looks like Corey is leaking evidence to team skittles Julison/Gutman before it is listed on the court site.

MJW

I mentioned this on a thread on "The Last Refuge Website," and I'll repeat it here for any of our resident legal experts to comment on. There's been a lot of recent discussion of the FBI charging Zimmerman with a federal hate crime, but I don't see any statute that would apply. The two most closely related I found were 18 U.S.C. § 241 (Conspiracy against rights) and 18 U.S.C. § 242 (Deprivation of rights under color of law). Obviously it wasn't a conspiracy, and I don't see any reasonable case that could be made that Zimmerman acted under color of law.

Jack is Back

MJW,

In the immortal words of Starkney (Pete) Stark: "the Federal government can do anything it wants".

And he, believe it or not, is smarter than Holder and not as Red.

Redbrow

All the stories I can find are simply rehashing the reports from back in March that the FBI is investigating. No new statements from FBI that I can find.

Statements like "Zimmerman COULD be charged" and "COULD face death penalty" is all they contain.

It is just baseless speculation and sensationalism.

MJW

Can any of the anonymous witnesses be identified by name? Judging from the other witness lists, the anonymous list is probably in alphabetical order. If so, knowing the other names would allow candidates for DeeDee to be accepted as possibilities or eliminated.

Redbrow

Notice how Georges friends are listed by name but the phone witnesses who have already been named by the media are now numbered.

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