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June 30, 2012

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GMax

When the NYT ( the NY fing T ) is telling the faithful, "not so fast you may have won the battle and ensured you have lost the war", perhaps some eeyores should at least stop and consider the possibility?

Well back to your gloom then, Rangers are the best team in baseball and on a current 4 game win streak and I have a wedding to attend this afternoon.

maryrose

Gmax:
have fun at your wedding. You continue to be my ray of hope on this blog. I tried to explain and encourage my sister about the SCOTUS decision yesterday. I agree with one thing in the article... Time will tell.

Melinda Romanoff

I completely agree with the above and believe, if that repeal fails at first glance, that the roadmap for a full strike down when and if that first tax is collected.

Jane

Is the current thinking that once a tax is collected that victim will then sue the government (on what grounds?) and we will start this process all over again?

Ignatz

Let's say the Republicans take the WH and congress and repeal Barrycare as Romney has promised to do.
Where then will the left be?
The commerce clause, the necessary and proper clause and the fed's power to coerce the state will all have been pretty thoroughly limited and the compromise which made it palatable for the Dems will be gutted and gone. I'll take that trade any day of the week and if our side isn't energetic enough to make that happen then it's utterly irrelevant what the SCOTUS decided anyway.

I would have preferred that Roberts had joined with the dissenters and limited the fed's power to tax as well, but if your interest in politics is to get everything you want you better find a new interest or stock up on the Prilosec.

Ignatz

--Is the current thinking that once a tax is collected that victim will then sue the government (on what grounds?) and we will start this process all over again?--

No, Jane, that only would have occurred had the SCOTUS found the issue wasn't ripe under the Anti Injunction Act.
It ruled the tax constitutional. Done deal.

boris

That seems incomplete to me.

Possibly valid interpretation ... as a mandate ACA is unconstitutional. As a tax it might not be unconstitutional but that can't be decided until somebody has standing to challenge it.

Rick Ballard

"The commerce clause, the necessary and proper clause and the fed's power to coerce the state will all have been pretty thoroughly limited and the compromise which made it palatable for the Dems will be gutted and gone."

Doesn't it take five to establish precedent? The commerce bit was CJ plus two. The four plain English writers in dissent agreed with the CJ but did not concur.

I may well be wrong but I don't believe Humpty Dumpty +2 = precedent.

Agent J

I do not understand on what grounds anyone can challenge the ACA if it is declared a TAX..To me the only way out now is repeal after the election.

henry

The bigger problem is without full repeal after the election, the economy will be destroyed anyway. Too many egos trying to "fix" the ACA will be fatal. I'm looking at Brown in MA, possibly Thompson in WI (ugh), and too many others to count.

sailor

Agree, henry.

Jane

Let's face it - winning depends on getting off the couch, getting out there and making it happen. No matter how brilliant anyone is on the internet that will just not carry the day. When has it ever been more important to actually do something?

Jane

Has the Daily Caller been hacked? What is a 503 error?

Jane

Have we heard from Janet? Was she in that storm?

henry

Jane, Northern VA and DC had massive power outages per USA Today. Haven't seen anything from our friends in that area. The 503 is a server timeout -- could be busy or could be in Northern VA.

rse

Am I the only who is getting recorded phone calls now from their insurer to come in for their "free" preventive care?

Yesterday after I replied no to have you scheduled it, the next recorded question was whether a doctor had told me I did not need such tests.

I hung up but it made me angry I am paying out the nose now and being harassed so this Admin can pretend these are free services.

Ignatz

--Doesn't it take five to establish precedent?--

Rick,
I do not believe the decision on the commerce clause or the necessary and proper clause is mere dicta.
From the Johnathon Adler link;

It would be tempting to read the Chief Justice’s discussions of the Commerce and Necessary and Proper Clauses as mere dicta. It would also be wrong, as these analyses form an essential predicate to his ultimate conclusion that the mandate could be upheld as a tax.


The medicaid spending ruling is unquestionably precedent.

AliceH

Inspired by Jane's "Get off the couch!" exhortations, I'm looking into this precinct committeemen project. The first speed bump for me is nothing in my county is on the web - googling for contacts or meeting schedules is a non-starter. Reading on...

Jane - we are not above it, we are it.

You go Alice!!!

We are not above, we are it.

Jane - we are not above it, we are it.

So other than Janet, Laura, Sandy Daze who else is around there? Rich? Soylent?

Ignatz

Professor Jacobson cites these guys;
Steven Schwinn
and
Ilya Somin

in support of his view it is merely dicta but omits that both of them still believe future courts will treat it as precedent because similar opinions in the past have been.
Schwinn considers it only a slight narrowing of the commerce clause powers, but even the dissenters were constrained by the novel and unusual aspects of the mandate and so there would have been no broader a rollback of commerce clause powers even if Roberts had joined them.

JeanD

maryrose, last week I harvested a 14" ponytail for Locks. What a pleasure to donate, and a huge relief in this heat. Shampoo bill hardest hit.

rse, I am getting those calls, too, and also resent the intrusiveness. I contracted for insurance, not another Mommy.

AliceH, thanks for that great link!

Jane, thanks for kicking us into gear. You and Janet remind us regularly that we need to stop talking and start doing.

DubDave, you are hilarious. Thanks for the laughs.

pagar

AliceH, sounds like a great opportunity to get your name out by putting the info concerning upcoming meeting schedules etc on the web. It may taking some digging but I suspect the info is in some office just waiting to be made public.

boris
discussions of the Commerce and Necessary and Proper Clauses as mere dicta. It would also be wrong, as these analyses form an essential predicate to his ultimate conclusion that the mandate could be upheld as a tax
I might see why Johnathon Adler reasons that way but doubt that would stand in the way of any future CJ who wants to call it "dicta".

As with Minor, one could claim that path CJ took is not relevant to where he ended up. In order to have actual effect on the commerce argument he would have had to rule ACA unconstitutional. In this case the "tax loophole" prevented that so it all means nothing.

Danube of Thought

It's my understanding that the four conservative justices joined Roberts in holding that the mandate exceeded the scope of the commerce clause power. I suppose it could be argued that they upheld it as a tax, and therefore need not have reached the commerce clause issue, rendering it dicta.

I find myself having less and less interest in the rigorous analysis of the Court's words, since they really don't seem to mean much to the Court itself.. They'll do whatever they want.

derwill

Things I now know to be true:

The government can tax me for not buying broccoli, and then tax me again when I buy it. The fact that I don’t like broccoli doesn’t seem to make any difference one way or the other.

I liked my health insurance, but I can no longer keep it. But that’s okay because paying the fine—er, I mean, tax—for not having insurance will be less money out my pocket anyway. In a couple of years, though, I’ll have to go on medicare, which will be a good thing, I guess, as long as I can find a doctor somewhere who still takes medicare patients.

Yesterday, for the umteenth time, the Eurozone was saved. They do this by lending each other the money with which to bail each other out. The technical term for this is “kicking the can down the road.”

France, though, has discovered a whole new road to prosperity. They are going to punish every Frenchman who dares to make any money.

During the past four years every bad economic report—of which there have been many—was unexpected. This is because Keynesian economics is supposed to work, even though it never has before.

In New York you can use food stamps to buy cigarettes, alcohol, lottery tickets and lap dances. But not Big Gulps.

In California if you’re illegal, you can get free health care, free child care, free college tuition, and a free sex change operation. If you’re legal and a tax-payer, you get to foot the bill.

If you make $250,000 a year, you are a millionaire. And a mean, selfish poopyhead for not paying your fair share.

boris

"It's my understanding that the four conservative justices joined Roberts ..."

Apparently only two actually said so.

At least it can be said that in 2012 three or more supreme court justices did not find the commerce clause as obviously omnipotent as had been claimed. Small comfort in that I'm afraid.

GMax

ANOOTHER green energy failure? Oh brother. Would it be a shorter and easier task to list any that are not in the process of failing or have already done a face plant? If the government was in charge of shoe manufacturing, we would end up with more left shoes than right ones...

Roland

"...still believe future courts will treat it as precedent because similar opinions in the past have been. "

Justice Kennedy will treat it as precedent, but once the left gets its fifth dependable left vote on the Court, the precedent will be quickly overridden, and the expansion of the taxing power to include anything the Court wants it to include will also stand.

That is the real world politics of it. This was a total defeat for conservatism. The only silver lining is that it may help to defeat Obama.

derwill

More things I now know to be true:

The Justice Department facilitated the sale of guns to Mexican drug cartels with the idea in mind that the drug cartels would use these guns to kill people, thereby proving that if you offer American guns for sale to Mexican drug cartels they will buy them and then use them to kill people. But when the guns were actually used to kill actual people, the Justice Department panicked and tried to cover the whole thing up. However, if you believe this was illegal, or even objectionable, you are a racist, because the Attorney General could be Obama’s brother.

If you have high cheekbones and are simpatico with the Great Spirit you can be a Native American and get a gig teaching law at Harvard.

If, on the other hand, your mother is Hispanic and your father is white and you have an Anglo last name, you are a “white Hispanic,” and that makes it okay to lynch you.

Republicans who criticize Obama are racists. Democrats who call Justice Thomas a house n****r are offering a valid opinion, and besides, they mean well.

Every time a Democrat loses an election anywhere in the country it is because of the Koch brothers. There is no limit to the breadth of their evil or the depth of their purse

In Florida the oceans are rising, even though the Messiah is now in the White House. This is all George Bush’s fault. In fact, every bad thing that has happened or will ever happen in the history of the universe is George Bush’s fault.

And Obama is awesome.

matt

derwill, that was a tour de force....it illustrates the great divide and the craziness of the left beautifully.

Now we have to codify this and post it on all of the lefty web sites.

pagar

derwill, great posts.

rse

Well after I wrote this morning's post following through this admin's ed policies are ALL premised on changing the nature of the economy I checked in at Catallaxy to see what was going on in Oz. Turns out Richard Layard, Mr Happiness research, has joined forces with Paul Krugman to push Keynesian initiatives. I pointed out it could not be coincidental that he wanted a statist eco push when he wanted the state to remake the citizens emotionally and groom their affective responses. So I thought I would see if I could find how his research is being implemented in Oz.

It pulled up the global bullying push to get at students prospectively, all of them, to create desired "positive" behaviors.

It also pulled up where all this in US on social and emotional learning is going by showing me the OZ pathways to wellbeing.

What a bunch of manipulative creeps we have worldwide gaming education to change people from the inside out without it being obvious. It's so sad because I am catching it here as it is coming. The australian readers will contact me to tell me nothing made sense until I started explaining. The UK and Oz are so much further along because Gore lost in 2000.

All the eco damage from that carbon tax that started today in australia since it is now July 1 gets masked in this odd definition of well-being that rewards paper credentialling and the state intervening to make incomes more equitable even though both gut real eco growth and cause great pain.

This would be what a 2nd term looks like for bo. What Gillard and Cameron are pushing.

mockmook


I have a better "long game" strategy:

Declare clearly unconstitutional laws UNCONSTITUTIONAL -- then the country has to grapple with the concept that Federal power is limited.

Jane - we are not above it, we are it.

Derwill,

I have no idea where you came from, but I am very glad you are here. Great posts.

Perhaps our new rant should be about the "political left wing court". It certainly worked for the other side.

mockmook


    “Under the government’s theory, Congress could address the diet problem by ordering everyone to buy vegetables,” the chief justice wrote. “That is not the country the framers of our Constitution envisioned.”

I can't believe Roberts wrote that.

He just made it possible for the government to "tax" anyone who doesn't buy sufficient vegetables. What is the difference?

Feeble, indeed.

Jim,MtnView,Ca,USA

Actually, I like broccoli, but I love freedom more. I see this as a loss. It will legitimize huger government in the eyes of the common citizen.
Not to give up, it is one battle not the ward, but I won't be putting lipstick on this pig.

"...the court today made clear that law matters and that it isn’t just politics by other means."
Make no mistake: you will not see this phrasing when decisions go against the leftish viewpoint.

MarkO

Well, we had a chance to make it precedent, but then some are smarter than others.

Jim,MtnView,Ca,USA

"...the court today made clear that law matters and that it isn’t just politics by other means."
That's why the bloc of four Left judges splits their votes so frequently?

This reminds me of those Euro elections where you can vote on an issue as many times as you want...until you vote "yes" one time. Then, no more elections ever.
One day we will have a bloc of 5...

derwill

Thanks, Matt, pager and Jane. I could amuse myself doing this all day long.

Sometime in the next couple of days, President Obama will once again pivot to the economy by suggesting that we spend another $800 billion building roads and bridges, hiring cops and fire fighters, but mostly bailing out the blue states’ broke pension funds, and funneling money to Democratic party constituencies. If you think we did this once already back in 2009, you would be wrong. That was a “stimulus,” this will be an “investment.”

derwill

Jane, I've been lurking for years. The Zimmerman outrage outed me.

Porchlight

Glad you've de-lurked, derwill.

rse

Jane-I like your new appellation.

Looking at the links of an australian involved internationally with all this, the end game of the paper credentialling is to create future voters who have nothing but limited knowledge and generic skills and desired personality traits so the state or its compliant crony Big Business will have to be the employer.

It won't work but there's a move to provide paid civic service opportunities for unemployed and really unemployable youth.

Yet another thank you David Cameron gesture. I just saw a paper about how to get progressive values in UK from a Conservative position.

If Thatcher did not have Alzheimers this would drive her mad.

Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet

After two days of reflection, it is clear to me that if Roberts was trying to thoroughly pi** off all sides of the political spectrum, he has succeeded.

GMax

Pretty good read on NC from Rasmussen. Think Obama is going to win by 11,000 votes again?

Republican hopeful Pat McCrory now posts a double-digit lead over Democrat Walter Dalton in the race to be North Carolina’s next governor.

The latest Rasmussen Reports telephone survey of Likely North Carolina Voters shows McCrory earning 49% support to Dalton’s 35%. Four percent (4%) prefer some other candidate, while a sizable 12% remain undecided

mockmook


At least I can get my mind off of Roberts' sickening sophistry:

USWNT vs Canada at 1:30 PM EDT on NBC -- send-off for the Olympics.

pagar

Obamatax
The ripping off of the middle class goes on and on.

Taxes that take effect in 2018:

If you're an American and you have any money the Obamatax is going to take it.

http://m.atr.org/article.php?id=6996

AliceH

--sounds like a great opportunity to get your name out by putting the info concerning upcoming meeting schedules etc on the web--

Agree, pagar. However, I don't have a website and refuse to go on facebook. I might start a website/blog at some point - I've been considering it for just this reason (lots of public-domain info just languishing in the courthouse which is barely 3 blocks away). I just need a stretch of free time to think it through.

Ignatz

--Justice Kennedy will treat it as precedent, but once the left gets its fifth dependable left vote on the Court, the precedent will be quickly overridden--

Since that is true it would have made no long term difference had Roberts sided with the dissenters right?

There is no political rescue at the SCOTUS.
It's not enough to stop the flood once it's in your house. It has to be rolled back.
There isn't any other way. Either we build a long term dominating political framework of limited government that dominates the way FDR progressivism did for 50 years and reverses the nanny state, especially at the federal level or the country will fall completely apart.

Porchlight

Let the record note:

On Independence Day in the year 2012, President Barack Obama will be in Paris, France, attending a fundraiser.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/2012/06/29/Obama-European-campaign-July-4

derwill

The liberals on the Supreme Court are wise jurists, who think the Constitution is a living document that can be whatever they want it to be. The conservatives hate little children and Mother Gaia and revere the words of our Founding Fathers, who were just stupid old white men and therefore shouldn’t count. But when a conservative votes with the liberals, then he can be considered a wise jurist, but only for a day or two. The worst of the conservative judges is Clarence Thomas, who just might be even more evil than the Koch brothers. This is because, even though he looks like he could be Obama’s brother, he isn’t a liberal and that makes him a traitor to all good things everywhere.

Rick Ballard

If anyone cares enough to read poll internals, SUSA provides polling for California and Florida which strongly suggests those who were supposed to be "helped" the most (uninsured) are somewhat less appreciative than BOzo would hope. There is a very interesting black/Hispanic dichotomy in Florida which should be easy to exploit.

These are adult polls which should be forwarded to the CJ so he might gauge the effectiveness of his decision, if elevating the standing of the SC in the eyes of the public were part of his rationale.

That's a solid B+, Chief. On the BOzo/Tribe scale, of course.

Jane - we are not above it, we are it.

Alice,

Just go to twitter. It really is the go to place now for everything. It's the fastest information reporter on earth. It truly blows my mind.

Derwill, well that's one good thing to come out of the Zimmerman travesty. Eventually every lurker is called to duty. I don't know why people wait - we love lurkers turned posters here.

I tried calling Janet and just got a weird busy signal - as in no service. I hope they are okay.

rse

Porch-I guess he prefers quiche and pate to barbeque and hot dogs.

And no one will complain if he doesn't wear a flag pin.

Frau Sauerkraut

Obama campaign ads are propaganda is now all over Fox News. Will the MFrackingM start running Romney ads or will they reject "Rmoney" ones?

jorod

There are two basic issues citizens are concerned about in the health care debate. One is pre-existing conditions and the other is portability of health insurance when you leave employment. These could have been addressed simply in a law. But instead we get this monstrosity of a program that is rationing disguised as regulation. It is the simplistic, socialist response to a problem: Control, tax and spend. We need Congress to fix this after the elections.

Frau Sauerkraut

More, faster, derwill.

xbradtc

Alice, twitter is a good idea. And setting up a blog on either blogger, or better yet, wordpress, it incredibly easy. No skills or money required to start.

Porchlight

Interesting polls, Rick.

I noted that in the California sample 86% are insured.

The 13% who are uninsured broke more than 2:1 AGAINST the SCOTUS decision.

AliceH

Porch - I think that refers to the campaign being in Paris. POTUS is not expected to be there, although I'm not finding where he WILL be on his calendar (nothing yet entered at all next week.)

pagar

"attending a fundraiser."

The French are broke and they're going to bail out Obama? Strange!

Ignatz

--Maguire is a self-loathing Irishman who feels the Brits had every right to oppress their inferiors.--

Stupidest comment of the month?

Frau Sauerkraut

Speaking of disease,
SOB

Melinda Romanoff

Derwill-

The French wealth tax has been on the books for quite awhile.

clarice

The guy who owns the service that drives us to the airport said Obamacare is going to put him out of business. He and his drivers are all retired military with a medical insurance plan Obamacare will not credit. Either he buys a plan they don't need or pays a large fine.

In the line just ahead of us at Dulles where there was an hour long wait, was Senator Lisa who moaned that she was a Senator and would miss her plane. The agent directed her to a VIP TSA checkpoint. JANE!!

Jane - we are not above it, we are it.

Why would someone who hates our host post here? Talk about self - loathing...

DrJ

I've been out of the office for the last three days. Has there been any news of note? :)

On my drive home I saw an Obama 2012 bumper sticker. It had the tag line "I hoped. I voted. I believe."

Really.

derwill

Once upon a time, the laws of the land originated in Congress. They passed these laws in the form of bills, which the president had the power to either sign or veto. When he signed these bills into law he gave away the pens he used as souvenirs. That, however, is quaint ritual that is fast becoming no longer necessary, because the concept of the separation of powers was thought up by the Founding Fathers, who had no idea what they were doing being old and white and men. Today, the president makes up all the laws he needs as he goes along, they’re never written down anywhere, no one votes on them, and the president never signs his name to them. This saves money on pens, and frees up the Congress for the more important job of naming post offices.

Ignatz

--He and his drivers are all retired military with a medical insurance plan Obamacare will not credit. Either he buys a plan they don't need or pays a large fine.--

Or as an alternative they can donate to the DNC and get a waiver.

Have fun in France, clarice. Should be less of a culture shock these days going from one socialist capitol to another. :)

Carol Herman

Actually, the liberal side has schools. Hahvahd. Yale. Stanford. Etc.

The conservative movement doesn't even have friendships! Since the substitute for Harriet Meirs appointment, by Dubya, was this piece of crap.

What did Roberts do? HE KEPT A SECRET! Most of the term ... he just let the 4 conservative justices think they were writing a majority opinion ... And, then?

My guess is that Kagan is brilliant! She worked the door open so this Roberts fella could come in ... with the paperwork ... And, grant the liberals the victory.

What was the complaint against Rehnquist? He never got more than 3 other votes. And, he had to do with Sandra Day O'Connor forever lifting her skirts ... and producing "tests." Cases that if they weren't resting on "tests" ... rested on plastic reindeer.

While the liberals formed the groundwork to interpreting the US Constitution just the way they like.

Does Roberts care?

In the future, you'd trust him? REALLY!

All Roberts can count on, now, are his new friends. And, Kagan is bright enough that she's not gonna give him much opportunity to write ... or re-write ... ground breaking rules.

What Roberts proved though ... is that conservatives have no school of thought! None. NADA. What's left? Platic Reindeer.

They ought to be given out like Oscars.

Janet

Here I am. We just got internet back on. Most of our neighborhood is without power so we've been out hooking our neighbor's appliances into our outside outlets (lots of extension cords!)& taking their food into our chest freezer.
How's Clarice?
I think we're gonna buy a generator....the power outages are happening too frequently.

AliceH

--donate to the DNC and get a waiver--

Again, waivers are not granted to individuals. Just to companies that offer health insurance benefits to their employees. All it does is allow the company to keep offering the plans they are offering w/o being penalized for not complying with Obamacare baseline requirements for the plans.

If the driver with military medical plan wants to keep his plan, then the Pentagon and the VA need to be the ones receiving a waiver.

peter

Not true, Derwill, sometimes the Congress makes a law but nobody knows what's in it until the Supreme Court rewrites it.

AliceH

Waivers have also been granted to companies that do NOT offer healthcare benefit plans to their employees so they can keep not offering them w/o being penalized. Or is that "taxed"?

sailor

You really think so, Ben? If so, you are the only one.

Carol Herman

First, ObamaCare is funding the hiring of 16,500 new IRS agents!

Then, Mark Steyn points out that healthy people may find it cheaper to pay the tax ($695) ... than to have to buy healthcare they don't think they'll use.

Inside Obama's new health care package, health care has to be sold to you when you request it. And, no questions asked about your health. You can't, and won't be rejected for some previous health condition.

Maybe, $695 is less than you're paying now for health care?

Plus, all politicians are in business to raise taxes. And, to those who donate to their campaigns? To those are sold "loop holes."

How bad is ObamaCare? No worse than Homeland Security. And, defintely no worse than getting groped by a TSA agent. (Hey, maybe we can train TSA agents, who X-ray and touch you anyway, to also offer you their diagnosis?)

What a way to grow a useless "economy."

Oh, yeah, what's left for Conservatives, now? To oppose abortion? (It's not a winning ticket.)

rse

clarice just gave us another reminder of why people will be willing to walk through tornadic activity to vote on November 6. They see the future at stake.

Well I have looked at Cameron's Big Society and Blond's Red Toryism and I don't like it.

Jane-we should discuss it before the election. Being the entities getting govt money to privatize still encourages statism and cronyism. We need to prevent the statist Reps from pushing us toward that model for Romney.

Ignatz

--Again, waivers are not granted to individuals......If the driver with military medical plan wants to keep his plan, then the Pentagon and the VA need to be the ones receiving a waiver.--

Since my jokes seldom inspire laughter with which to identify them as such, maybe I should just put 'joke' in parentheses after them to save people time responding. :)

Rick Ballard

Porchlight,

I wouldn't expect a favorable reaction from free riders confronted with the possibility of being taxed.


derwill

Ben, Ben, Ben, the Republican House of Representatives has passed many bills, along with a couple of budgets. But before they can become the law of the land they must first be voted on and approved by the Senate--that sticky separation of powers again. For some reason the Senate never seems to get around to bringing the House bills onto their floor for consideration and a vote. Now which party has the majority in the Senate again, Ben? I'll give you two guesses, and the first one doesn't count.

And speaking of budgets . . . yet another quaint notion whose time seems to have passed. I know we're still spending money on things, because every so often, and usually sooner than expected, we bump up against the debt ceiling and a crisis of monumental proportions ensues, because if the debt ceiling doesn't get raised grandma won't get her social security and our men and women in combat won't get paid. For some reason these debt ceiling crises don't threaten to affect anybody else who gets a check from the government--just our senior citizens and our military.

AliceH

Sorry, Iggy. That particular "joke" was just too similar to other serious comments about waivers I just launched headlong into detail-correction-mode.

Danube of Thought

Suppose that next week the congress passed, and the president signed, a 2,700-page bill that was, mutatis mutandis, the same as Obamacare except that what the citizen was required to purchase was a General Motors product.

Invaid as exceeding the commerce claue power? I suppose so.

Valid as an exercise of the taxing power? If not, why not?

clarice

Janet, I'm away but our house sitter says everything;s ok at chez feldman.

Porchlight

I wouldn't expect a favorable reaction from free riders confronted with the possibility of being taxed.

But this shows they actually understand that to be the case. Due to MSM programming I would have expected most uninsured to presume that they would now actually have coverage. Free healthcare!1! etc.

I mean after all, Dems did this to help the uninsured. Right?

Jane - we are not above it, we are it.

Here I am. We just got internet back on.

Phew. I called your number (703) I have no idea if it was home or cell but whatever it was wasn't working.

Do you have damage or just no power?

Ignatz

--Suppose that next week the congress passed, and the president signed, a 2,700-page bill that was, mutatis mutandis, the same as Obamacare except that what the citizen was required to purchase was a General Motors product.

Invaid as exceeding the commerce claue power? I suppose so.

Valid as an exercise of the taxing power? If not, why not?--

Presumably because doing so promotes the General's welfare not the general welfare.
But what if the requirement is to buy an American car or simply an automobile?
What justification would Roberts have available to strike it?

Jane - we are not above it, we are it.

RSE,

I have no way of knowing but my guess is Romney's sole focus will be getting things to work again. The problem will be the minutia where he has to put it in other's hands. (Compare that to our current president who puts everything except his golf club, in others hands.) What I want to make sure of is that he replaces not just the top tier but the middle tear of government where all the treason takes place.

Sara

Since my jokes seldom inspire laughter with which to identify them as such, maybe I should just put 'joke' in parentheses after them to save people time responding. :)

Welcome to my world, Iggy. And if you tend toward sarcasm as humor, you better surround your posts with lots of smiley face emoticons and add in disclaimers after each paragraph.

Ignatz

--That particular "joke" was just too similar to other serious comments--

Tell me about it; story of my life.

OTOH I do keep my wife highly amused, but usually inadvertently through bumping my head, stubbing my toe, electric shocks, etc.

Porchlight

Presumably because doing so promotes the General's welfare not the general welfare.

Heh, nicely done, Ignatz.

Sara

Via Facebook:

The Daily Caller The Daily Caller is experiencing technical difficulties due to the massive storms that have impacted the Washington D.C. metro area. We appreciate your patience as we try to get things fixed. As always, thanks for reading our site!
Rick Ballard

"What justification would Roberts have available to strike it?"

If it's a brand new piece of legislation he'll invoke the traditional Chief Justice right of jus primus noctis, citing the Warren, Burger, and himself as controlling precedents.

Danube of Thought

Good point re the general welfare. (We cure that problem with a few congressional findings to the effect that, in view of the taxpayers' relationship with GM, it is their product that must be purchased.)

But the point is, I am having a hard time grasping the conservatives' argument that anything at all was gained here.

Frau Sauerkraut

Via Insty: Death and retirement of U.S. Supreme Court Justices.
You can guess the outcome.
LUN

Sara

We appreciate everyone for supporting Willie Nelson for a Nobel Peace Prize! Pass it on so we can get Willie officially nominated.

Hey why not, he probably deserves it more than Obama or Krugman for his Live Aid work.

Sara

This is interesting more because of where it was seen and the pic was taken than the sentiment expressed, IMHO.

Manhattan for Romney 2012, NYC
AliceH

This might be more in rse's line, but I've been thinking the spate of studies and reports about a) "food deserts" b) "food insecurity" and c) "sign up for food stamps!" promotions are not unrelated, but are just prongs on a big fork heading toward some kind of "Food Insurance" mandate.

Porchlight

But the point is, I am having a hard time grasping the conservatives' argument that anything at all was gained here.

I think part of the argument is that Congress could never pass such a law if the tax is honestly labeled as such. It couldn't have passed Obamacare that way and was barely able to do so even when lying about the tax.

I guess you could say that Congress can just lie again, but I don't know if that will pass muster post-Obamacare.

Ignatz

--But the point is, I am having a hard time grasping the conservatives' argument that anything at all was gained here.--

I'm not sure any conservative is saying anything was gained on the taxation front, but I think even you said that power was already relatively limit free anyway so it might be equally hard to say anything was lost either. If Roberts had done what he should have and joined the dissent to make it the majority then the left would have been stymied on commerce, necessary and proper AND taxation fronts.

It may not be known for decades what was gained. If the commerce, necessary and proper restrictions and the reining in of federal extortion via spending restrictions stick then a lot may have been gained, but there's no doubt much more could have been with a total strike down of the whole shebang.

Danube of Thought

"it might be equally hard to say anything was lost either"

Nothing lost in the area of constitutional law. On the other hand, Obamacare is now the law of the land, and a giant, irreversible stride toward serfdom has been taken.

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