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December 29, 2012

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Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

--Mark Kleiman thinks individual liability has flaws but maybe liability can be pushed back to the manufacturer.--

Gunmakers are currently shielded by Federal statute from liability.

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

This statement by Kleiman indicates a thorough misapprehension of the issue;

That system would give the gun industry a strong incentive to be careful about not selling to people who might misuse the weapon or re-transfer it to someone who would.

No manufacturer sells to the public. Very few if any even sell to retail dealers. Firearms are distributed to a large network of wholesalers who in turn distribute to FFL dealers who then retail to the public.

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

I might add that selling a firearm to a disallowed person, sometimes even if unknowingly, already subjects a dealer to a huge federal criminal liability including lengthy prison sentences and large fines the incentive of which would far exceed some tortious liability.
Not sure if Kleiman's this useless on other issues but he might as well have saved the pixels on this one.

narciso

Well the category error starts there, and like with a Noonan column, 'it's turtles all the way down,

Rob Crawford

ISTR there's a self-defense right advocacy group that offers legal insurance if you're Zimmerman'd, and I'd be shocked (shocked!) if normal liability insurance didn't cover accidents.

Nothing, except for the public defender's office, covers you for purposeful misuse of a firearm.

As always, the control freaks are focusing their efforts on making more people criminals rather than punishing those who have already broken the laws. I guess they think it's easier to disarm law-abiding middle-class white hunters and target shooters than ghetto gang-bangers.

Which, as with their attitude towards blasphemous speech, shows that the secret to keeping the tyrants off your back is to keep them terrified of you.

lyle

Bloomie: the biggest little fascist. Or maybe the littlest big fascist.

squaredance

Kleinman is not guilty of "thorough misapprehension of the issue" as the issue is not one of reducing criminal misuse but rather one of using the excuse of criminal use to further restrict, by hook or by crook, the 2nd amendment rights of the decent and law abiding.

It is you, Ignatz, that appears to miss the point (though one doubts that you are actually this obtuse).

What he is guilty of, mercifully, is using outrageously fallacious arguments--and for once we cannot even call these arguments specious--to weave his propaganda. Here we have guilt by association being the only top of the list; quickly following is the conflation of the criminality with insanity. It is a veritable Forest of fallacies, most to obvious for even the dullest eye. What is curious--and the most idiotic--is the notion that equipment manufacturers are somehow responsible for the use of their equipment. Better let Silicon Valley and the Telecom people know about this--they could be in big trouble.

This last bit is deeply revealing about the Left: not once is the individual actor held responsible for their actions. Immorality must reside in some foggy change of causality connecting the enabling tools of the act and not in the actually act of the perpetrators.

We should be thankful that in their power lust and intoxication for this issue that they move in sloppy haste and let the mask slip a bit. One can hope that they manage to toss away whatever "political capital" they manged to work up last Nov. in this ideological freak show surrounding Newton.

That being said, when people like this viper speak thus it is really a case the Left talking to their base and attendant useful idiots rather than a case of "public dialog". They are just whipping up the rabble. Though a public response is necessary, it is hardly sufficient. If the last election proves anything it is that these propaganda campaigns are not targeted at the general public public at all. The right must learn to counter attack in kind.

As an aside, what vexes is that fact that so many of these anti-gun advocates are Jews. Have they learn nothing from history?

One can talk about Soros and various other Jewish socialist zillionares, and carp aobut Jewish media and academic cabals all one wants, but the truth of the matter is that once the collectivists gain a ultimate ascendancy the Jews are one of the first groups that will be targeted. They are in fact one of the most obvious targets. They may think that this time around they can maintain the upper hand, but this is the most foolish sort of wishful thinking imaginable.

As in the USSR, a great many of the left's useful idiots are in for the grimmest of surprises--one that at this late date there is no excuse not to see coming.

Rob Crawford
As an aside, what vexes is that fact that so many of these anti-gun advocates are Jews. Have they learn nothing from history?

I think if you poke these particular clowns, you'll find their only religion is Power. That they had ancestors who were Jewish is an accident of history.

narciso

Well we focus on Soros, because like a more successful Blofeld, he has all the accoutrements of a successful villain, including probably a volcano layer with 'sharks with laser beams'

Now the earlier scheme that some have considered is pricing ammunition, out of most people's reach, they haven't thought that through as well.

Extraneus

Excellent post, squaredance.

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

--Kleinman is not guilty of "thorough misapprehension of the issue" as the issue is not one of reducing criminal misuse but rather one of using the excuse of criminal use to further restrict, by hook or by crook, the 2nd amendment rights of the decent and law abiding--

The issue being discussed by Kleiman was how guns are distributed to retail customers and how strict liability might affect that system. His description of it shows him to be ignorant of how it occurs. If his only interest was advancing gun control it's hard to see how intentionally misrepresenting the gun distribution network furthers his argument; in fact it under mines it, indicating the issue I was addressing was one of ignorance on his part regardless of his ultimate intentions.

Thanks for the lecture though. I've only been a dealer for 30+ years and could really use the help.

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

Byron York on the latest cliff deal;
A likely tax hike on those above $4-500,000 and the sequestration cuts go forward.

narciso

That's like Lando's deal with Vader, don't see the point in it,

Jack is Back (on Firefox)

If Boehner could not get his collegues in the GoP to vote on those making over $1mil, what makes us think they will go along with those making half as much? Sequestration cuts are a mere drop in the ocean.

maryrose

Iggy:
I'll believe a deal when I see it. The picture of Oblammy scrambling does warm my heart. Even Reid has to wake up and pretend to do his job.

narciso

Kleinman is part of the Journolist, wasn't that established, McArdle 'bless her heart' has long since made her unreliable for advice, since she endorsed Obama, who is against everything she says she believes in,

A slightly more jaundiced perspective on the matter;

daddy

Yay! Heels beat somebody. In basketball. At home. By like 3 points. But what the hell, at least we didn't lose.

Anyhow, off with the dogs. FWIW, I have been doing dog walking duty from my Tax Attorney buddy up the street. He has been in the office constantly till way late at night (7 PM on Christmas) due to having to do all this estate taxes work prior to 1 Jan and the new Tax structure.

I pity our Tax attorney friends here at JOM, but at least I get to take out his sweet puppy dog Bella.

hoyden

Tyrannical gun laws further the Liberal cause by deterring folks from exercising their 2nd Amendment rights, thus maximizing the number of people who rely on the state exclusively for protection. When innocent gun owners transgress these laws then they can be counted as bonus casualties who further reduce the lawful gun owning population. Liberal gun control doesn't focus on criminals because they are not concerned with whether you die from criminal violence or end up in prison; you are out of the game in either case and the gun control laws live on.

narciso

That's the gist of the previously LUNed piece,

Gus

Gosh, what happens when Baracksucker Obama and Eric the Black Hack Holder sell 2000 ASSAULT RIFLES to MEXICAN DRUG LORDS??

Liability?
Anything?
Beuhler??

Janet

Yeah...& that paper printing the names & locations of gun owners...is sorta like the Joe the Plumber treatment. Make anyone contemplating buying a gun think twice.

Gus

Good post Squaredance. Let me synopsize if I might.

LIBTARD MARXISTS do not want you to have your SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS.
They want full GOVERMENT (READ:THEM) Control of your life and choices.
I say FUCK YOU to them.

Janet

On FB - Eric Holder: We Need To “Brainwash” People To Be Anti-Gun [VIDEO]

...except Mexican drug lords, like Gus points out.

Gus

Oh my!! Look look looooooooooook look what your filthy SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS have caused. MEXICANS ARE DYING IN THE STREETS because of the SECOND AMENDMENT.

JANET, that was supposed to be the result of FAST and FURIOUS. Both Baracksucker and Holder are on record as blaming US/U.S. for the gun proliferation and deaths in Mexico, then VOILA!!!! A gun running operation a la self fulfilled LIBTARD WET DREAM prophecy!!! The MEXICANS ARE ALL DYING BECAUSE OF US!!

Didn't work out as they planned, but the MFM is too CORRUPT to report this, and let the truth come out.

Manuel Transmission

Iggy, check your email.

cathyf

As my mom said this morning: you don't need a gun to kill people.

CHICAGO (CBS) — Police are investigating an early-morning fire that [left] a woman dead and five others, including two children, hurt, as a possible case of arson. A witness claims a woman doused herself and two children with liquor and then set the house on fire. It happened at about 4:30 a.m. Saturday morning on the 4200 block of West 21st Place in the Lawndale neighborhood.
link

narciso

Of course, the flipside of this, is the Elian matter, when the unarmed residents in one Little Havana hamlet, were subject to more military force, than the whole compliment in Abbotabad.

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

Check yours MT. :)

moxieman


I might add that selling a firearm to a disallowed person, sometimes even if unknowingly, already subjects a dealer to a huge federal criminal liability including lengthy prison sentences and large fines the incentive of which would far exceed some tortious liability.
Not sure if Kleiman's this useless on other issues but he might as well have saved the pixels on this one.
-----------------------

Very true.

Old Lurker

JiB the deal will have the support of most Dems so not that many Reps will be required in the House. And more than a few Reps will vote for it anyway.

Boehner COULD prevent the bill from coming to the floor at all if he invoked House precedent about any bill getting a vote having to have the support of the majority party...but he does not have the balls to do that in general and particularly not before his election to the Speakership Jan 3.

So all we await is the fine print at this point seems to me.

Captain Hate

Yay! Heels beat somebody. In basketball. At home. By like 3 points. But what the hell, at least we didn't lose.

I was gonna mention this earlier but then got busy doing some painting and other Honeydew things around the house. It was a good OOC win which they were previously lacking. This is a Hole team that doesn't have the usual Hole level of talent. I'm not sure if Roy whiffed on a few blue chippers or what but I'm sure it will be rectified in short order.

Danube of Thought

Suppose congress not only repealed the 2005 Act, but passed a new one saying manufacturers could be sued in federal court for damages arising out of the use of their products?

I dunno....

Danube of Thought

Hadn't seen this before:

"Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest." - Mohandas Gandhi, an Autobiography, page 446.

(see the writeup at Drudge.)

boatbuilder

Based on those murder stats in NYC it would appear that if the city outlawed the sale or posession of illegal drugs that would prevent a lot of murders. The illegal drug lobby must be very powerful. How about taxing illegal drug sellers! If it prevents just one murder and makes us all feel safer...

boatbuilder

I got it! Make the illegal drug dealers, and their buyers, buy insurance.

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

--Suppose congress not only repealed the 2005 Act, but passed a new one saying manufacturers could be sued in federal court for damages arising out of the [mis]use of their products?--

Why not? Sets a nice precedent for the auto and chemical industries, among many thousands of others. Think of all the free phones that would fund.

boatbuilder

If we could find a way to tax idiotic public policy, then we'd be on to something.

Danube of Thought

"Why not?"

The only reason I can see at this point is that a lot of congressman would lose their jobs, so it's unlikely to happen. The mere fact that it would be atrocious public policy never deters them from anything.

But my larger point is, I can't think of a constitutional impediment to such a move.

Jack is Back! (On his iPad)

Is the NFA an infringement, as specified in the 2nd Amendment?

Has it ever been challenged in the courts?

I ask because it seems to me that if the idea is to allow the people to keep and bear arms in order to provide for a well regulated militia then why restrict those arms (i.e. the NFA)?

boatbuilder

If only we could find a way to make legislators buy insurance against the "unanticipated" consequences of their legislation. Imagine the premiums in California!

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

I would think equal protection might rear its head if one industry is singled out for one form of legal liability and other industries which kill many more every year are not.

Jack is Back! (On his iPad)

BB,

Lets license and regulate legislators.

Like lawyers, doctors, engineers, vets, barbers, mechanics, plumbers, electricians, exterminators and porn stars you need to be certified by the state in order to practice. The test for legislators would be two parts: Part 1 is the US Constitution and applicable State ones, Part 2 would be all Math especially heavy on econometrics and cost-risk analysis as well as budgeting and cost control.

Janet

Yeah, Ignatz. I think you pointed out that Schwinn was a big killer.

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

--Is the NFA an infringement, as specified in the 2nd Amendment?

Has it ever been challenged in the courts?--

Miller was a direct challenge which yielded a peculiar decision. Miller was convicted of violating the NFA with a short barrelled shotgun. The lower court decision was appealed but no defense of Miller's position was presented to SCOTUS.
The peculiarity arose when the Miller court recognized the right of people to keep and bear arms for militia purposes and specifically those that would aid the militia and were used by the military, but since no evidence was presented affirming that short barreled shotguns were in fact commonly used by the armed forces they affirmed his conviction.
The decision leaves the impression that had evidence been presented to that court that short barreled shotguns were used by the military and possible fully automatic personal arms, as opposed to a quad fifty for instance, they might have found in Miller's favor and gutted the NFA.

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

--Yeah, Ignatz. I think you pointed out that Schwinn was a big killer.--

Along with Ford, Government motors, Budweiser, pee wee football, Jack Daniels, all of the food industry, the entire healthcare system and pharmacological industries. Let your imagination run wild; the list is nearly endless.

narciso

There really is no end to it, that stupid check list of insurance factors, had dogs, swimming pools, and tranpolines, ahead of guns,

AliceH

I've been browsing around the web, looking at handguns and oh my goodness - firearms are expensive! I am suffering from severe sticker shock. How do people afford them?

jimmyk

Oy, the Hispanic woman arrested for pushing the Indian man in front of the subway said she did it because she hates Muslims and Hindus. Get ready for some PC hectoring by Bloomie and the media. Never mind that this woman is undoubtedly unhinged.

Danube of Thought

I don't think an Equal Protection challenge would succeed: all the US would have to show is a "rational basis" for the law, since there is no suspect classification (e.g. race) requiring closer scrutiny.

The manufacturer would at the very least be entitled to a trial by jury--I think (the congress could provide for bench trials only, these being civil actions)--and under common-law tort analysis there would have to be a showing that the particular injurious event was foreseeable by the manufacturer.

But once a sympathetic plaintiff with a good lawyer can get to a jury--or the right judge, and they are legion--you're in a real crapshoot.

I doubt any of this will happen. I'm just daydreaming about worst-case scenarios.

narciso

So how does that her different from Bloomberg?

Extraneus

A lot of lawyers are surely daydreaming about the same thing as a best-case scenario.

jimmyk

Bloomberg is unhinged and loves Muslims, even the ones who want to murder us?

Jane - Mock the Media!

If only we could find a way to make legislators buy insurance against the "unanticipated" consequences of their legislation.

Now you're talking. The combined malpractice that represents us is almost beyond belief.

But once a sympathetic plaintiff with a good lawyer can get to a jury--or the right judge, and they are legion--you're in a real crapshoot.

I have always believed that there is absolutely not a lick of difference between going to trial and playing roulette in Vegas for the exact reasons you have stated. However that calculation applies equally to a sympathetic defendant.

Thomas Collins

At the very least, the gun confiscation Congresscritters could attempt to increase the Firearms and Ammunition Excise Tax, and dedicate a portion of the revenues from that tax to support for federal "violence awareness" programs (that is, anti-gun propaganda programs) in elementary and high schools. I believe the current revenues from that tax are required to go to support hunting programs. I don't think such legislation would pass. However, I think progs will introduce an array of burdensome regulatory and tax legislative proposals.

AliceH

Besides the sale price, and sales tax, what other charges are added when purchasing a firearm? How much do they typically run?

Danube of Thought

Best attack on such legislation might be as a Bill of Attainder.

Gus

If they tax guns and ammo, how will poor black people protect themselves? And won't these poor black folks need an I.D. as in proper identification to obtain access to their second amendment rights??? I smell disenfranchisement.
I'm sure Jesse Jacksoff will weigh in soon.

Jimmyk

DoT, not sure which legislation you mean, but all sorts of things are singled out for punitive taxation--cigarettes, gasoline, alcohol. A bill of attainder claim wouldn't seem to be much help.

Frau Schiessgewehr

As part of my personal protest, we showed our younger granddaughter--sixteen-- our rifle and shotgun. I've been telling her about Project Appleseed.
LUN

Gus

Frau, guns kill. Didn't you hear?

richatuf

Evening all. Great reading catching up with all the threads.

daddy

Oy, the Hispanic woman arrested for pushing the Indian man in front of the subway

Wonder if she's a White Hispanic like George Zimmerman?

richatuf

A bill of attainder claim wouldn't seem to be much help.

In re: product liability? Isn't intentional misuse a defense as well?

What a mess, the admin wanted to step into the Zimmerman shooting to scale back people's right to defend themselves and now they want to also take the tools people can use to defend themselves away.

Gus

Great Question, if Obama had a son, he might be Muslim or something too!!

Danube of Thought

I wasn't talking about tax legislation, jimmy, only my own hypothetical about congress creating a private right of action for firearm victims against manufacturers. The bill-of-attainder attack worked in the case of Teddy Kennedy's bill that singled out Rupert Murdoch; no idea if it would work here.

I'm not sure that intentional misuse would be available as a defense against a third-party victim of the misuse.

Agent J

Yesterday with the trigger locked, the weapon unloaded, I allowed those that wish to handle my new "Judge".. All were impressed..Some wish to explore further..They were instructed to come visit when we did not have more then a house full..Two or three young adults at a time is great.

I was so proud when my one daughter, who in the past had been involved with two armed robbery's while working for McDonald's. Requested to handle the pistol..that is a major accomplishment,for someone had been pistol whipped to the floor once, the other time the robber was standing over her, an shot beside her head while laying on the floor..A sigh of full recovery, IMO.. Her two kids have been deprived of never going into a Mc'Ds..only drive through.

Along that line of thinking, how many of you have received a phone call at 1:00 AM from the manager of Mc'Ds, informing you that they had been robbed, an your daughter had been taken to the hospital..No condition report, nothing. You do wake up fast, that was the longest 40 miles that I ever drove the speed limit..She was kept over night..

narciso

Well that was just a bonus, Rich, the wider point was to 'rub raw the sources of discontent' as Alinsky recommended, in order to do so, the actual facts regarding the event, which took me a few weeks to really get, had to be made unrecognizable from the template that was George Zimmerman.

Gus

Narciso, the biggest problem with the whole ALYNSKI thing, is that IT IS REAL and OBAMA and his ILK follow it.
But. The MORONS that inhabit this country WITH US, have no idea what or who ALYNSKITES are. Furthermore, most would NEVER BELIEVE that CHOCOLATE JESUS could possibly be MARXIST.

Melinda Romanoff

Geebus, Agent J!

I'm ecstatic to hear of the survival of your daughter through such a horror. Does your state allow concealed carry, unlike mine for the next 170+ days?

I wish you luck and would like to rub the forehead of that lucky daughter just for some of that luck to rub off on me.

Danube of Thought

I'd like a brief moment with the forehead of the son of a bitch who attacked her.

Bless her brave heart, AgentJ.

Gus

Mel, as you know, WE now have concealed carry, but I don't think assault on a mailbox is reason enough to draw!!!

richatuf

Agent J-

Wow AgentJ glad she recovered. Was it in WY?

daddy

Horrendous events Agent J.

Have no idea how to respond except to share your great relief she is alive and well. Bless your whole bunch.

Agent J

Yes we have CC in Missouri..I have not resorted to that yet.. I tell the kids that it is far more exciting to just carry with out the permit..Actually I do not carry at any time, since I am traveling all over this country, I never know what the other states rules are..

Those instances of robbery happened about 8- 10 years ago, an she was under medical care for a period of time..It happened in "gang" week in Kansas City an both individuals were apprehended. I was much relieved when in both cases they plea bargained an she did not have to testify, but it was an education for me to escort her into the city an set through the preliminary's..I do believe in selective abortions, or in later stages of life just shoot the bastards..

Melinda Romanoff

Gus-

Your mailbox will never see it coming. It's far better than the "Three Teens And A Long Steel Pipe" type of assault that might have haunted you in the past.

Of course, I have no knowledge of how that might have worked in a sturdy 1977 Suburban.

Gus

Who told you about my parents Suburban?

daddy

One of Narciso's links led me to a weird story on a new discovery about Magnetism: Researchers discover a new kind of magnetism.

I thought there was only good old magnetism, but apparently there are now 3 types of Magnetism we know about;

1) Ferromagnetism: The old Compass Needle type
2) Anti-Ferromagnetism: Only operates below certain temps and useful in computer hard drives,
and now a 3rd Type:
3) (QSL) quantum spin liquid magnetism.

I have no idea what the heck it does. And are there more types? Beats me, but I think the general properties of the Universe seem to come in more than 3's, so I'm betting there's a Magnetism Number 4.

richatuf

The French high court struck down the 75% tax rate!

narciso

Apophis, why have you forsaken us, with that long orbit,

http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=46291

Melinda Romanoff

Linkie please, daddy. This is what I've been dreaming about.

daddy

Melinda,

If that story doesn't work try this one: MIT researchers discover existence of new state of magnetism

Danube of Thought

Don't get too excited, Rich. If you read the fine print, they can and will tweak the bill so as to re-impose the 75% rate.

Melinda Romanoff

daddy-

Did my own search. It's stunning. I need to sleep on it to grasp it (it's the only way I finger out new things). Wow!

Thanks! This is going to change some things for me.

Gus

Danube. Although, I think the French are White Flag freaks, the power to tax and legislate IN OUR COUNTRY, does not include the COURTS (theoretically) interfering.

richatuf

Darn it. Just when I was going to think of something nice to say about the French.

Maybe they'll break the flaming Citroen record this year.

Stumbled upon this quote from Judge Hand...

―Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one’s taxes.-

Gus

Judge Hand HATE CHILDREN and he made Jeff Spiccoli share his Pizza with the class at Ridgemont High.

Dave (in MA)

--
David Burge
‏@iowahawkblog
Guy makes crappy YouTube video, Hillary Clinton ends up drinking away a concussion in the tropics. #ButterflyEffect
--

clarice

http://thomasfriedmanopedgenerator.com/about.php

You, too, can write Tom Friedman columns,

richatuf

Still in Hawaii?

Elliott

You, too, can write Tom Friedman columns,

I am unable to resist the SSP impulse.

Elliott

And should the aforementioned New York Times Pulitzer Prize winning columnist find himself between sixes and sevens regarding the subject of inquiry for his next weighty tome, perhaps he could ponder the rather arresting phrase that hit and run set down in an ancient thread. Per usual, bgates' contributions on that page are not too be missed, though one of them is particularly piquant at the moment.

richatuf

Very clever Elliott.

henry

Daddy, number 4 is "animal magnetism". You are more familiar with it than scientists would be.

Jane on Ipad

We have a foot of new snow, and bitter cold this morning. Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

marlene

Jane,the weather girl on Fox just said Maine will get a few more inches.My husband said,"she's full of (delete)." He's been shoveling a few more inches since 5AM.

Melinda Romanoff

16 and clear. Short pup walks today.

henry

10... not much snow in the forecast. It was warmer at the beach.

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