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January 10, 2013

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Buddy, can you spare a platinum dime?

The coin to answer all the financial questions of the universe will be worth 42 sense.
================

peter

Harvard beclowns itself once more.

narciso

Well we've gone beyond absurd, so lets contemplate something more understandable:


http://illinoispaytoplay.com/2013/01/09/u-s-attorneys-office-protected-rezko-friend-dr-ronald-michael/

Adenoid Hynkel

If the hermaphroditic constituency can hijack the dictionary for economic and political advantage, why can't the collectivists?

henry

If you are wondering where the sea ice went, its hanging out here. The horror of trapped orcas, while the indigenous peoples ate the one polar bear that came to rescue them. Maybe that coin can be dropped here to make a bigger hole in the ice.

narciso

So the patently ridiculous is affirmed, and the patently obvious, then again look at the Troy McClure nature of the pundit,

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterubel/2013/01/09/why-it-is-so-difficult-to-kill-the-death-panel-myth/

Jim Ryan

Gah! That death panel link of narc's! How could anyone be so stupid?! Who is Peter Ubel? The comments thread corrects him, at least.

rse

Kim-did you see the link to the new science standards I put up on WUWT? It's all centered around concepts and activities to support a belief in CAGW and Gaia is in trouble unless we change our behaviors.

And Experience Science. Dr J would go into mourning.

Jim Ryan

By the way, under Obamacare, will the federal government now pay for a male to get an adadictomy? I mean, what if you think that you were meant to have two? Suppose you were quite inconsolable about it. That could be considered a medical condition.

NK

TomM said: "My suggestion is that Prof. Tribe ask one of his students to take ten minutes to study this. Then we will get an answer that reflects the language used in the law." NO Tom-- we WON'T. Tribe's verbal diarhya has nothing to the 'Law' or defined terms of Treasury Statutes-- Tribe is just one of the TEAM- TeamDem, and he's joining the narrative of the COIN -- "THE ONE COIN TO RULE THEM ALL" (just think Tolkien's LOTR, with Barry I as Sauron and Lew as Saruman-- Drum, Krugman and Tribe are assorted Orcs and Goblins.) Tribe is joining the COIN meme, so when Barry I really goes all GeorgeV and unlawfully issues new debt bonds without a higher debt limit,TeamDem will say, well you didn't want the coin- so we issued plain old bonds instead. It's all ridiculous of course, but somehow it's keeps their voting constituents happy-- so TeamDem goes with it.

An IC/LEI pickle we're in.

I'll go look, Early Bird; I don't know whether to run for the hills or drag out the long board, the beach is suddenly so empty.
===============

NK

ack, read my comment -- my fingers really didn't work-- diarrhea(sp)

narciso

So 'courage' is an interesting thing in Washington' as Bret Stephen has pointed out;


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/01/10/chuck-hagel-s-career-shows-he-s-not-afraid-to-change-his-mind.html

Watch out for falling rocks, and temperatures.

What thread, rse? I can't keep up over there; Antnee and the Horde are too prolific. Actually I feel a little like a cat surrounded by cockroaches; I have no idea which way to jump there is so much edifice crumbling.
========

Sink the PlatMark.

Perhaps Cap'n Ahabama can nail that coin to a mast. pour encourager les outres, accent on the last syllabull.
==============

narciso

I can't find it, in the first 10 threads, kim.

NK

Taranto agrees that TeamDem is engaged in a ridiculous narrative/meme project regarding "THE ONE COINTO RULE THEM ALL"-- his speculation as to why may be a it too convoluted-- (PS: excellent MobyDick reference@8:50)

Jack is Back

I think we are looking in the wrong direction vis a vis a trillion dollar platinum coin.

Why not just lay claim to the Moon? After all we were the first to land on it and the last to explore it. No one else has planted a flag there. So its ours.

What is it worth? Not much today without colonization but after that you might get more than a trillion or so out it.

What is the Moon Worth?

NK

TomM-- instead of reading the corruptions of Krugman and tribe in the NYT-- you may want to shift your gaze to Pravda-- which makes far more sense these days-- Amerika--- never give up your GUNZ: http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/28-12-2012/123335-americans_guns-0/

Thomas Collins

I think y'all are misinterpreting the statute. The Treasury Secretary's discretion clearly allows the substitution of "silicone or saline" for "platinum" and also allows for the concept of virtual deposit. That clearly being the case, Geithner (or Lew, or whoever is Treas. Sec. when the debt limit is reached) can simply virtually deposit Katherine Webb with the Fed, and Obama will have enough leeway to write checks for the rest of his term!

Jane:  Mock the Media

Happy Birthday Caro!!!

Timb

Tom bangs the drum everyday....and, as as been pointed out to him on various forums, gets statutory interpretation wrong. The law says what it says and Congressional statutory intent is immaterial unless it is too vague or contradictory.

Hysterically, Tom considers the Adler objection to federal insurance premium support to be valid because an omission in the law and then flips 100 percent when the coin (which Obama, as careful a politician as has ever been seen, will never do) is mentioned.

Wonder what he thought of Lilly Ledbetter and Congressional intent then?

In short, Tom. I'd listens to the lawyers on this if I were you and stop being so afraid your team will lose the upcoming hostage crisis before it starts. Is unbecoming

NK

Timb is so deluded he actually believes the rhetoric of TeamDem-- even though TeamDem doesn't believe the ONE COIN TO RULE THEM ALL rhetoric of TeamDem. This is the state of the modern Left/Dem tribe, it is a form of mental illness.

Thomas Collins

Happy Birthday, Caro!

henry

Happy Birthday Caro!!!

maryrose

Happy Birthday Caro!
The dems must be desperate now that they are no longer going to get ANY tax increases. This coin kerfuffle is just that a new scam. No one is buying it.Obama is in big trouble-financially. His second string cabinet stinks and Hilda Soltis can't get out fast enough. Holder is stuck because of his Omerta agreement with Bammy.

Melinda Romanoff

Besides, if Timb doesn't understand that BTFD applies to buying SPY, not legalities, then he's beyond negotiable assistance.

NK

PS: to the young deluded commenter-- as "Proof Coin" and "Bullion Coin" are terms defined by the Treasury Secy, the statute as written is explicitly clear as to Congressional intent -- which is build your Platinum Coin, just so long as it as about as large and weighs as much as Burke Class Destroyer. The Left is beyond parody -- and let me be impolite and stare and point and say they are mentally ill.

Captain Hate

So Tribe beclowns himself in support of his former prized sooper genius student? On the same day as Junior Cuomo did an Al Roker all over his national aspirations? Well all righty then...

GMax

Does Timb do bits on SNL? Cuz that is one damn funny guy. Hilarious actually...

marlene

Happy Birthday Caro!

centralcal

Happiest of birthdays to you, Caro.

Clarice

Caro! Happy Birthday!

Janet

Posted by: Send other peoples' money.

Hah!

jimmyk

The Left is beyond parody -- and let me be impolite and stare and point and say they are mentally ill.

At this point I can hardly blame the left for thinking that Barry can do whatever he wants by executive order. I'd feel better if he were actually slapped down just once. He's like a teenager who will keep testing the limits until he's told "No."

Janet

Happy Birthday, Caro!!
Lots & lots of love to you!!!

rse

http://www.nextgenscience.org/sites/ngss/files/DCI%20Arranged%20Standards%20-%20Public%20Release.pdf

is what I am talking about. Pay attention to the blue column. The activities are the assessments so the mentions of content, although interesting to see where focus is, are not going to drive what goes on in classroom.

And engaging in the activity creates the presumption that learning occurred. The focus is on physical activity and away from a mental focus.

Which of course rather makes the chance of future world altering innovations less.

hit and run

HAPPY BIRTHDAY CARO!!!

Melinda Romanoff

Happy Birthday, Caro!

Captain Hate

HB Caro.

maryrose

And the beat goes on... How many days until we can rid ourselves of the Obama infestation?
2016 keeps looking better for us. Hillary- illness Cuomo-goofy gun policies and Biden= doofus extroadinaire doesn't look like a formidible bench to me.

sbw

Andrew Cuomo, trying to ride both guns and schooling, just launched the first salvo to win the Regressive Democrat nomination for president in 2016.

Cuomo belongs not to the good Democrats, mind you, but a new wing of Regressive Democrats that appears to operate under the motto rse identified, “Grab the guns and gut the minds.”

From good Democrats, some became Progressives, and not some have gone off the edge further to become Regressive. Regressive Democrats aren’t so much interested in solving a problem as using it to their advantage.

Regressive Democrats love “Change.” Change is an opportunity to disregard what works and replace it with whatever furthers their advantage. They believe in equal opportunity, using real or imagined victims.

It's official. Now we can talk about what Regressives bloviate.

jimmyk

"What's the scam, I know there has to be one;"

Why, you don't think the left can simultaneously believe that both providing loans and denying loans to low income people are discriminatory?

Danube of Thought iPad

Seems to me that the definition of bullion coin settles the issue regardless of the congressional omission.

Threadkiller

Tribe is the clown who said having two citizen parents makes a "natural born citizen"...

Threadkiller

Happy Birthday Caro!!

Clarice

I understand that in the entire history of mining for platinum we've never made it to the trillion $ mark.

Tom Bowler

What a great idea! Printing money on something other than paper! I guess I'll delay my retirement for a few more years.

Sue

Happy birthday Caro.

hit and run

Jane:
Beat ya Hit!

Indeed. The List was under the misimpression that it had exclusive wishing rights until 10AM.


Mike

Not challenging, just curious: How does that definition of proof coin say it's an enhanced version of the bullion coin? It looks like it could be an enhanced version of any coin, and the statute provides for "platinum bullion coins and proof platinum coins," as separate items. Just wondering if I'm missing some technical meaning here.

Mike

And actually, following up on that -- the platinum proof coins available for sale from the Mint appear to be inscribed with a $100 value, yet be sold for $1,892. That suggests that inscribed value and metal value are different on these (but maybe the price is increased for rarity? Does the Mint do that?). So do these coins currently violate the law, was the price of platinum radically different when they were minted, or... what?

Timb

One wonders where on the Right, one can find an educated commentariat, rather than a bunch of kill the messenger Michael Savage listeners?

The idea that coin must ave a trillion dollars of platinum is just plain silly and has been debunked across the ol' blogosphere.

Maybe, instead of railing against this idea which Obama has neither the stones nor nclination to do, Tom can explain to us why he doesn't spend his time railing against the inanity of the debt ceiling hostage crisis? I mean, obviously, the Limaugh clones flinging pooh have no ideas, but Tom pretends to be a sane conservative.

Jane:  Mock the Media

The List was under the misimpression that it had exclusive wishing rights until 10AM.

Was that in the small print?

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

--How does that definition of proof coin say it's an enhanced version of the bullion coin?--

Good point. However a look at definitions includes the following;

bullion: platinum, gold or silver in the form of bars or other storage shapes, including coins and ingots.

bullion coin:
precious metal coin traded at current bullion prices.

business strike:
a coin produced for general circulation (as opposed to a proof or uncirculated coin specially made for collectors).

So is the trillion dollar coin made for one collector; Mr. Bernanke?
We're heading into Scholastic territory of how many dollars can be made to balance on the WH pinheads.

Timb

Mike, the Sec of Teasury is allowed to set the price and does based on market demand. That's why he/she could mint one and assign a trillion dollar value to it.

Of course, doing so might make Tom and Megan McArdle mad and keep the House Republicans from attempting to reverse the results of Novembers election by threatening the American economy (can we assume the readers are even aware House Republican candidates received almost one million fewer votes that Dems and maintain their majority through gerrymandering?)

Jane:  Mock the Media

Tom can explain to us why he doesn't spend his time railing against the inanity of the debt ceiling hostage crisis

Let me get this straight: You show up and demand that the owner of a blog you know nothing about write a post on a subject that you want to talk about?

Does that sort of behavior usually work for you?

DJR

And yet, even if you're right, it also says "and proof platinum coins." So the secretary can issue proof coins in the denominations within his discretion. Proof describes the minting process and has nothing to do with the value of the metal.

hit and run

I mean, obviously, the Limaugh clones flinging pooh have no ideas

This is obviously the work of Limbaugh clones:

Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet

Happy Birthday Caro.

Great pic, Hit. I'm pretty sure "timb" won't get it, though.

narciso

LOL hit, happy birthday, Caro, I was hearing a snippet of Alex Jones, on Beck, 'not only do the trains don't run over there, no way to get there,

Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki

--That's why he/she could mint one and assign a trillion dollar value to it.--

Proof coins are by definition made for collectors.
It is quite reasonable to consider that delegation of Congress's authority Constitutional.

Is it reasonable to consider a $trillion coin obviously not intended for collectors and used to circumvent a duly passed and signed Congressional law asserting its power over the debt limit of the USA a Constitutional delegation of the following power given to congress by Article One Section 8; the power to "coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures."

Jane:  Mock the Media

Save Pooh! Save Pooh! Save Pooh!

Danube of Thought

the Sec of Teasury is allowed to set the price and does based on market demand

So the market demand for this coin will be such as to set its value at $1 Trillion? Give Sotheby's a shot....

Janet

Hahahaahaha! Wonderful, hit!

Cecil Turner (on a mini pad)

I'm not sure the "proof coin" is supposed to be a special case of the bullion coin, but nor am I convinced it matters. In any event, Tribe's analysis:

Second, other clauses of 31 USC §5112 do set such limits, but §5112(k)—dealing with platinum coins—does not. So expressio unius strengthens the inference that there isn’t any limit here.
is so clearly flawed that it undermines his conclusion.

Save Pooh! Save Pooh! Save Pooh!

See what happens when you infringe on the right to arm bears?

GMax

Is there any collector that has a Trillion dollar net worth? I know that Bill Gates is generally presumed to be the wealthiest American and I think he clocks in at $50 B +/-. Seems to me the Trillion dollar coin can have but one buyer, i.e.Uncle Ben's Conversion Dice. Dont let that stop you from the comedy tour, hell even Roseanne Barr got paid for her dreck.

Charlie (Colorado)

All words lost their meaning when Congress puts them in front of lawyers.

narciso

There is no principle to Hagel, just a desire 'to get a piece of the action'


http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2013/01/hagel-tied-to-james-wolfensohn.html

Danube of Thought

Tribe never said two US citizen parents were required for natural-born status. Here is what he (and Ted Olson) did say:

These sources all confirm that the phrase “natural born” includes both birth abroad to parents who were citizens, and birth within a nation’s territory and allegiance....

If the Panama Canal Zone was sovereign U.S. territory at the time of Senator McCain’s birth, then that fact alone would make him a “natural born” citizen under the well-established principle that “natural born” citizenship includes birth within the territory and allegiance of the United States...Premising “natural born” citizenship on the character of the territory in which one is born is rooted in the common-law understanding that persons born within the British kingdom and under loyalty to the British Crown–including most of the Framers themselves, who were born in the American colonies–were deemed natural born subjects.

Threadkiller

From your quote:

"These sources all confirm that the phrase “natural born” includes both birth abroad to parents who were citizens..."

You provide proof that he did indeed say what I said he said.

Your research shows that he said more than that, which I acknowledge.

Thank you.

Would you like to see what former Federal Judge Chertoff said about Natural Born Citizenship?

Danube of Thought iPad

"These sources all confirm that the phrase “natural born” includes both birth abroad to parents who were citizens..."

No one can possibly read the complete sentence as meaning that two US parents were required for a person to be natural born.

Danube of Thought iPad

In discussing John McCain (both of whose parents were US citizens), Chertoff said something like "I assume that if your parents are Americans you're a natural born citizen."

It is simply impossible to argue that he therefore meant that there was no other way that one could be natural born. But that sort of fallacious reasoning is a birther trademark.

Threadkiller

Sure they can.

(1)Born off of U.S. soil requires citizen parents(plural)

and

(2)born on U.S. soil requires being born on U.S. soil and allegiance(which some believe means being born on U.S. soil).

Threadkiller

"Secretary CHERTOFF. My assumption and my understanding is that if you are born of American parents, you are naturally a natural-born American citizen."

More than an assumption, it is also his "understanding". I assume that a former Federal judge and, at the time of his testimony, the head of the agency that executes Federal immigration law shoud be a pretty good source.

Good enough for Leahy to personaly, in Senate hearings, question him and him alone on the topic.

I wonder why Leahy did not ask him about citizenship status given to those born on U.S. soil? I wonder why Chertoff didn't offer such info?

Danube of Thought iPad

"I wonder why Leahy did not ask him about citizenship status given to those born on U.S. soil? I wonder why Chertoff didn't offer such info?"

Because they--like Tribe and Olson--were talking about John McCain.

Danube of Thought iPad

"Sure they can."

Who can what?

"(1)Born off of U.S. soil requires citizen parents(plural)"

They don't say that. They say that one who is born abroad to two US parents, like McCain, is natural born. They were investigating the question presented. They said nothing about one who is born abroad to one US citizen and one alien.

Threadkiller

"Because they--like Tribe and Olson--were talking about John McCain."

Tribe and Olson did not discuss citizenship status of those born on U.S. soil?

I think you may be mistaken.

"They said nothing about one who is born abroad to one US citizen and one alien."

We agree. But that does not change what they did say.

cathyf

Actually, DoT, the number is even more ambiguous. If you are talking about children born abroad as a classification, you naturally use the plural. So Joe is born in Italy to an American parent and an Italian parent. John is born in England to an American parent and a British parent. Joe and John are children born abroad to American parents. That is quite properly plural -- there are 2 American parents, just not to the same child.

Threadkiller

There can be two Commanders in Chief at the same time with three allegiances.

Danube of Thought iPad

Tribe and Olson discussed it in the context of one who is born outside the US but in a US territory.

You're correct, cathyf, and that is sense in which I believe they used the plural. But my point is simply that they never said having two US parents, whether born here or abroad, is a prerequisite to natural born status. That was the position impliedly imputed to Tribe by TK's original post, and I wanted to correct it.

Nothing Chertoff said is inconsistent with what I have said. But I can assure you that nothing in his tenure at TSA or on the fedral bench (or as an associate in my law firm) ever required him to give a moment's thought to the meaning of natural born.

Threadkiller

"But I can assure you that nothing in his tenure at TSA or on the fedral bench (or as an associate in my law firm) ever required him to give a moment's thought to the meaning of natural born."

Leahy thought differently.

TK's original post:

"
Tribe is the clown who said having two citizen parents makes a "natural born citizen"...

Posted by: Threadkiller | January 10, 2013 at 10:31 AM"


Threadkiller

"But my point is simply that they never said having two US parents, whether born here or abroad, is a prerequisite to natural born status."

From Tribe and Olsen:

"Senator McCain's status as a ``natural born'' citizen by virtue of his birth to U.S. citizen parents is consistent with British statutes in force when the Constitution was drafted, which undoubtedly informed the Framers' understanding of the Natural Born Citizen Clause. Those statutes provided, for example, that children born abroad to parents who were ``natural-born Subjects'' were also ``natural-born Subjects ..... to all Intents, Constructions and Purposes whatsoever.'' British Nationality Act, 1730, 4 Geol. 2, c. 21. The Framers substituted the word ``citizen'' for ``subject'' to reflect the shift from monarchy to democracy, but the Supreme Court has recognized that the two terms are otherwise identical. See, e.g., Hennessy v. Richardson Drug Co., 189 U.S. 25, 34-35 (1903). Thus, the First Congress's statutory recognition that persons born abroad to U.S. citizens were ``natural born'' citizens fully conformed to British tradition, whereby citizenship conferred by statute based on the circumstances of one's birth made one natural born. "

Parents, plural, is specific to McCain and to back up that definition they use citations that, per your understanding, use the plural of "parent" in a singular way?

Tom Maguire
How does that definition of proof coin say it's an enhanced version of the bullion coin? It looks like it could be an enhanced version of any coin, and the statute provides for "platinum bullion coins and proof platinum coins," as separate items.

Excellent point, but the answer doesn't save the Coiners.

For examnple, there are Silver Proof version sof the prosaic old quarter. Face value $0.25, market valye much more.

In principal, I suppose they could do a Platinum Proof Quarter. Maybe a quarter ounce, market value way in excess of $0.25.

However! The face value is still only $0.25, since it is a quarter for legal tender purposes.

So they can either do a trillion dollar bullion coin (except they lack the bullion) or they can do a proof coin, except there are no trillion dollar series to 'proof'.

I think/hope I cleared that up in an extended addition on "proof".

And to 'Timb' - I think 'statutory construction' means something other than 'ignore the pesky words that confuse or contradict my interpretation'. YMMV.

Tom Maguire

From djr:

And yet, even if you're right, it also says "and proof platinum coins." So the secretary can issue proof coins in the denominations within his discretion. Proof describes the minting process and has nothing to do with the value of the metal.

Well, that is what 'proof' means to you. My guess is that the legal community will be more interested in what that phrase means to the mint, and in related contexts elsewhere in the law. And having looked at every use in that section of the law, it is often paired with "uncirculated" and clearly contemplates the existence of proof and non-proof coins of a related series.

A stand-alone proof coin with no counterparts would be an unconventional interpretation of the word, and hence open to challenge.

Troubled? Try this - no where in the platinum coin section of the law is "coin" defined. So can the Secretary, in his discretion, roll out a six-sided cube with six cool engravings and call it a coin?

YES HE CAN! If words have no meaning...

Rick Ballard

TM,

If Tribe insists it's a great floor wax as well as being a delicious dessert topping, why should I believe Chief Justice Roberts won't agree? Is issuance of Clown Coins (backed by Clown Bond sales) any more damaging than Mad Ben's QE∞ compounded with ZIRP forever?

ezra abrams

Does anyone remember, just last summer, every law professor in the country was confidently predicting how the SCOTUS would vote on ACA.
And all those law profs were dead nuts wrong.
you would think that a failure of that magnitude would chasten them a little, but no.

31 USC 5112 (k) is whatever 5 SCOTUS judges say it is; the idea that no one has standing - r u really gonna say not one judge will grant standing ??

and, as someone who is very liberal, think this whole thing is liberal hypocrisy in action:
Imagine if R Reagan tried to use a coin to fund the contras; liberals like tribe would scream bloody murder about such a patently un constitutional lawless act.

Richley Thomson

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http://www.maxiclassifieds.com/

sbw

That's more lucid than some of my own comments.

sbw

Just reported maxi to domain records holder godaddy.com.

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