Back To Gun Control Safety

Joe Biden knows "there is no silver bullet" to reduce gun violence but he is "shooting" for a proposal by next Tuesday.

File this under 'Thank Heaven for Science' (my emphasis):

Only no one really knows what video game violence does to children and adults. Studies sway between simple causation and direct correlation.

Researchers at the American Psychological Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics have pointed to numerous reports that show a causal connection between media violence and antagonistic behavior. A study published in Developmental Psychology last year recognized increased aggression with children who play video games.

But a 2008 study by Harvard professors found that most children who played M-rated video games did not exhibit hostile behavior.

And in related news, most gun owners don't go off on murderous rampages. Problem Solved! Or maybe, if video games are tipping one person in a hundred into madness, we have a problem.

When I have more time I hope to spin the full tirade but for now, do keep in mind various points that have been abandoned as Washington and the media chase the current "crisis":

1. The Trend is Your Friend: Crimes rates have been plunging in this country for twenty years. If increased gun ownership and violent video games are the problem, why is crime down?

2. OK, Maybe The Lack Of A Trend Is Not Your Friend: Per crime expert Alan Fox, the incidence of mass shootings has been roughly trend, less for the last thirty years. Why are they resisting the overall downward trend in crime?

Possible answers might include de-institutionalization of the mentally ill, increased use of psychotropic drugs, and increased popularity of desensitizing video games propping up the mass shooting rate at a time when other forces should be pushing it down.

3. Not To Be Tedious, But Just What Is The Problem? Handgun homicides account for about 10,000 deaths per year; all rifles (with "assault weapons" as a subset) account for about 400; shotguns are another 400 and "Unclassified" is about 1,200 (sorry for the no-links, that is my steel-trap wool memory reciting the FBI UCR stats.) If we are talking about reducing gun violence, surely we should be looking at handguns rather than rifles cosmetically tricked up to look like a cool Hollywood prop.

4. There Is No Trust: The NY Times had a LOL article a while back exhorting gun owners to calm down - following the 2008 Heller decision, the Supreme Court now recognizes that the Constitution protects the right to own guns. In TimesWorld, this means that with ownership secure, gun owners should stop worrying about confiscation and be constructive on topics like a national ownership database.

For heaven's sake - in the last few months the Times has also run repeated editorials reminding their readership that the election of Mitt Romney could change the Supreme Court, with Roe v. Wade hanging in the balance. Gee - Roe v. Wade is forty years old and still tenuous. Yet 'Heller', a 5-4 decision, is rock solid and won't be threatened if Obama manages to replace one of the conservative justices.

Really? Obama wouldn't 'evolve' on that topic and decide he opposes it? Justices Ginsburg and Breyer won't need to evolve, since they were on the short side in 2008, and Kagan and Sotomayor will need to find their inner liberal and vote to overturn. Tough call.

And it's not like 'stare decisis' will be a problem, as Lawrence v Texas (2003) and Bowers v. Hardwick (1986) illustrate. When the liberal winds are blowing precedent gets blown away.

As to how our government could persuade the citizenry that their rights are secure and confiscsation is not an option, well, I may come back to that. But let me continue this non-tirade...

5. Nobody Will Be Shooting Any Law Officers or Tyrants. The Revolution Will Be Tweeted. This sort of talk - "I’m not letting anybody take my guns! If it goes one inch further, I’m going to start killing people” - is insane. And these impressive arguments about natural law lead to a daft conclusion:

To assure that no government would infringe the natural rights of anyone here, the Founders incorporated Jefferson’s thesis underlying the Declaration into the Constitution and, with respect to self-defense, into the Second Amendment.

Welll, yes, 'Heller' spoke to legal self-defense, not armed insurrection.

There have been practical historical reasons for the near universal historical acceptance of the individual possession of this right. The dictators and monsters of the 20th century -- from Stalin to Hitler, from Castro to Pol Pot, from Mao to Assad -- have disarmed their people, and only because some of those people resisted the disarming were all eventually enabled to fight the dictators for freedom. Sometimes they lost. Sometimes they won.

The principal reason the colonists won the American Revolution is that they possessed weapons equivalent in power and precision to those of the British government.

Please, nobody is going to be shooting law enforcement officers or going up against tanks, helicopters, artillery and automatic weapons with a semi-automatic rifle kitted out to scare Diane Feinstein and impress Arnold.

And I recently saw folks mentioning that tyranny in the US is a real possibility, citing the Japanese internment during WWII as an example. Work with me here - worried that the Japanese civilian population in the US represented a dangerous 'enemy within' we passed a deplorable law interning the Japanese in America. Fortunately, they had not availed themselves of their gun right so they went peacefully.

But had they armed themselves and fought back, we would have... concluded that they really weren't that menacing and let the whole thing slide? Really? My guess is we would have gone to a Plan B involving severely escalated violence.

Or maybe there is a deterrent factor to the armed civilian population concept - if we had known the Japanese civilians were heavily armed we would have concluded that they really weren't so menacing, or that neutralizing the possible threat would be too painful, so we would just let them carry on. Again, really?

Look, if the majority in this country really takes into their head the notion of oppressing a minority, the minority is in dire trouble (which is essentially the situation of roughly every minjority in history). We could look to the Mormons as a different example, and wonder about their odd treatment in a country founded on religious liberty.

As a practical matter, gun owners need to ask themselves just how close they are to oppressed minority status in their area. My impression is that some of the people screaming the loudest have the least to worry about.

Did Jefferson write "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants"? Yes, but he went on to suggest it must also be refreshed from time to time with bullshit.

Guns for lawful self-defense - fine. Guns for hunting and sporting recreation - fine. Guns as preparation agsint the day we rebel against our government - that sort of talk sounds crazy and will only energize the already-committed. Please don't expect to win many converts with it.

LEFT UNSAID: The rationale for our alcohol laws is that a ban would be ineffective, most people enjoy it responsibly, and if 80,000 deaths per year are alcohol-related, well, waddya gonna do? That logic follows a similar course to the logic of the video game manufacturers (where the death toll is obviously lower and less directly linked, if at all), violent movie makers, and gun makers. Hey, people like violent video games, gory movies, and shooting at targets, and who are we to say them nay, even if a few extra deaths are a predictable consequence? No fair asking me if I have any point here other than the absurd inconsistency of our national 'conversation'.

Comments

[narciso]

yes I was right, about the first one;

http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2005/04/joyce_foundatio.php

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

There are many millions of retired and ex military in this country and there are many more millions who have been raised on the teat of Lexington and Concord and have grown up with guns in their hands from before Hector was a pup.
I'm convinced scores of millions of Americans many of them with the best military training in the world would make a nearly infinitely more effective fighting force than a small fraction of their number of Afghani's, Iraqi's or any of the other ME rabble who have proved time and again how effective an unconventional insurrection is against a conventional military, no matter how well trained and armed.
God forbid it ever comes to that but there is little doubt in my mind what the outcome would be.

[Threadkiller (Get off your couch and leave the GOP!)]

Was the 2nd Amendment a carry over from English Common Law?

[Threadkiller (Get off your couch and leave the GOP!)]

":Dr. Orly Taitz reports the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals will entertain her petition to expedite default judgement against the Social Security Administration Commissioner. The petition is filed in connection with the Obama eligibility challenge Taitz v Democratic Party of Mississippi. The full petition with exhibits is embedded below. Dr. Taitz's press release is as follows::..."

http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2013/01/appeals-court-to-hear-case-against.html?m=1

[Threadkiller (Get off your couch and leave the GOP!)]

"Mark Levin: Time To Require Background Checks For All Politicians Before Sworn In"

http://youtu.be/r7WyEQfXK9c

[Jack is Back]

Heh! Tebow's revenge.

Last year in the playoffs Tebow won the game in OT on the first play from scrimmage. Peyton Manning his christened replacement can't even win in 3 tries from scrimmage and gives up a INT.

I hope Bald'mor wins and Elway has to suck lemons for the next week or so.

[Jack is Back]

Ravens win.

Somewhere between New York and Florida (or maybe Manila) Tim Tebow is smiling and who can blame him.

Lets call this Teb(l)owing:)

[Thomas Collins]

Congrats to the Ravens and their fans. I hope to be seeing you at one of the bars between Providence and Foxboro (or between Foxboro and Boston) next week.

Not that I'm taking anything for granted, Texans fans!

[NKonIPAD]

Manning hurt his team tonight, no doubt

[Captain Hate]

I barely watched a second of it; eff Goodell and his garbage league.

[Thomas Collins]

Ch, did you happen to see the Denver defensive backfield get burned three times, once at the end of regulation with time running out and Baltimore with no timeouts?

[NKonIPAD]

From what I ve seen NE beats Houston in a competitive game and stomps Baltimore's guts out next week. That said Flacco's better than I thought and the Harbaugh brother's definitely have the coach gene.

[Thomas Collins]

Peyton did better in cold weather than he usually does, but Flacco clearly outplayed him.

[Fen]

"There's great danger in ceding the tyranny argument"

But it gets us a better table at Martha's Vineyard. Afterall, whats *really* important is gaining the respect and admiration of our Leftist friends. "Give me Liberty but not if it means I get banished from the cool kids table"..

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

I'm going out on a limb and predicting the Super Bowl winner comes out of the Sea-Atl game tomorrow.

[Thomas Collins]

OK, Ignatz, if you're out on a limb, I'll join you (on a nearby limb; joining you on the same one would bring both of us down). Super Bowl will be Packers and Patriots, with the Patriots winning a wild one 45-33.

But one prediction I can state with 100 percent certainty: I choose a run to the pizza shop over the halftime show.

[Jack is Back]

A little illustration of how emotion can over-rule logic.

When in Southampton it was reported that the kids at Tuckhoe School were traumatized by the gunfire they could hear from the village police firing range during school hours. The range is directly across the street from the school. So the Mayor, God bless him, has ordered that the police cannot use the range during school hours.

Now I ask you what better deterrant to a mad man gunner coming to the Tuckhoe school than to have a few cops with guns walking around going to and fro to the range. But, oh no, we can't have the kids upset (the range has been there for over 20 years) hearing pop-pop-pop, can we? Eejits, the Irish call them.

[Thomas Collins]

That is, unless the halftime show is a duet, with Brent Musburger and Katherine Webb singing "Do You Think I'm Sexy".

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

Gotta tell ya TC, you're a great guy but I really detest the Patriots.

Between preventing the 76 Raiders perfect season and that "tuck" play, they've replaced the Broncos and the Steelers in my list of chump teams.
And that's from a guy who cares even less than CH about the current NFL. :)
Obviously I am stuck deep, deep in the past like a good reactionary conservative should be. :)

[narciso]

Ah, you reminded me of something, TC, well leaving out Musberger, in the LUN

[Jack is Back]

What the hell was Aaron Rodgers thinking?

[Thomas Collins]

Don't worry Ignatz; I know that the Patriots and Celtics don't get a lot of affection in JOM Sports Fan Land. But give the Pats some slack; they are still making up for getting smoked 51-10 by the Chargers in the AFL Championship Game!

[Thomas Collins]

The Super Bowl I'd most like to see is Pats-Seahawks.

Nice catch, Michael Crabtree.

[Jack is Back]

Obviously, Green Bay has no answer for Michael Crabtree. This is starting to remind me of Tori Smith and the Ravens v. Broncos game.

BTW, Dan Brown could write a few books just based on the tats on Kaepernick's arms:)

[Jack is Back]

Damn, if Kaepernick was a baseball prospect with a 93mph fastball then what he hell was the speed of Aaron Rodgers fastball:)

That was a bullet!

[narciso]

Ok, they're tied again, 21/21.

[jorod]

Most of the violence occurs where the welfare state and the Democrat Party are strongest.

[daddy]

Caught the second half and OT on the headsets during the walk.

Terrible breakdowns in the defensive secondary by the Bronco's---inexcusable rookie stuff. Denver's decision to take a knee to run out Regulation with the ball and 2 Time-Outs remaining, struck me as gutless and foolish, and certainly was not evidence of a team with confidence. Even in the first half it seemed as if Denver was intent on giving the Ravens opportunities to get back in the game, and over the headsets it sounded like the Bronco's continued to do that in the Second Half. Excellent heart shown by the Ravens in taking advantage of those opportunities and winning.

[narciso]

You sure, that wasn't a 'cunning, cunning.' plan, on their part, daddy, that didn't work out exactly right?

[Thomas Collins]

David Akers must be breathing a sigh of relief.

[Jack is Back]

Forget the game for a second: Meet Clinton Romesha of North Dakota.

America's 4th living MOH winner since Iraq/Afghanistan. Outtanding young man.

[matt]

I was in one of the hip sections of LA a few years back and photographed a bumper sticker stating "one nation under surveillance". Far too true.

The lines are tapped without warrants; drones are now being contemplated and even used;the police have been militarized and have no business with some of the gear they have. Shootings by cops under ambiguous circumstances are on the rise.

On the font page of the WSJ a couple weeks ago, DHS was overruled by the AG on warrantless wiretaps of civilians with no criminal record. The AG can now tap anyone he pleases.

You might have been able to trust Bush on the Patriot Act. You certainly cannot trust Obama.

I have always respected Nat Hentoff, and truly believe we are at the juncture of passing into a soft police state.

Nanny Bloomberg and the rest of them are on the cusp of a majority on the Supreme Court and that certainly crosses the line drawn in the sand by the Founders.

The Left are crypto - fascists these days. Maybe one makes an argument for modern times - modern ways, but the Red State - Blue State divide has become so wide that these people don't even speak the same language any more.

[Elliott]

the Sea-Atl game

I like what you did there.

[Captain Hate]

Ch, did you happen to see the Denver defensive backfield get burned three times, once at the end of regulation with time running out and Baltimore with no timeouts?

No; I've mostly been listening to music this evening and reading "Middlemarch". I wasn't kidding about ignoring the GFL and being only interested in watching RG3 this year. Any league that starts the year with replacement referees is insulting the customer to expect him/her to pay the full amount for an obviously inferior product. This loathsome behavior has a precedent, even worse, when the league trotted out replacement players during a strike.

I'm surprised how little they think of the customer and count on him/her to be there for them no matter what type of swill they place in front of them.

[narciso]

No, they are leftists, Mussolini who was a socialist tweeked the Cheka with the OVRA, the core of the Nazi SA, were the nationalizing Esser faction,

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

John Fox got schooled by John Harbaugh if you ask me. Joe Flacco is becoming a great quarterback. He is making the most of his talents.

So far, Jim Harbaugh is doing a pretty good coaching job himself. He had the guts to go with Kaepernick, and so far, it is working.

[Captain Hate]

I have always respected Nat Hentoff, and truly believe we are at the juncture of passing into a soft police state.

Nat has braved the slings and arrows of the "jazz world", which has the political sophistication of a flatliner, to call out the JEF on his intrusions on the rights of the individual. Nat's not the youngest person in the world and when he passes on, I doubt that there will be anybody to take his place.

[Jack is Back]

I found Nat as a young college student in Downbeat magazine. Then I would pick him up from time to time in the Village Voice (which was at one time the best information on jazz clubs in the City). He is an American institution protecting the 1st Amendment. No one does it better.

[Caro's iPad]

Thanks, DrJ. Glad you are out from under your ghastly paperwork. I would resent it no end.

[Captain Hate]

Joe Flacco is becoming a great quarterback. He is making the most of his talents.

Harbaugh took the risky move of firing the offensive coordinator, Cam Cameron, late in the season because he thought he was impeding Flacco's development. The QB still is somewhat erratic but apparently has performed very well in the playoffs unlike prior seasons.

[Rick Ballard]

"but the Red State - Blue State divide has become so wide that these people don't even speak the same language any more"

I agree. MT presents the conundrum faced by the prog fascists. He, like me and like millions of other productive citizens, has withdrawn his consent to current governance. The contempt for all pols has never been higher and the purchase of arms is a very real expression of well earned contempt.

I believe we'll see heightened state nullification efforts prior to serious discussion of secession but thoughts of the proximity of the "in the course of human events" moment may be driving the progs to Bourbonesque stupidity.

I've always wondered why they expected to live through they're dreamed of Cloward-Piven moment. After all, they're just parasites.

[narciso]

Well one example of how you can lose all perspective, is Stanley Crouch, he used to make some rather trenchant criticisms of the likes of Jesse Jackson, but he's gone full moonbat, in the last few years.

[Jack is Back]

Forgot to mention that Nat Hentoff is a Bostonian and a product of Boston Latin, Northeastern and Harvard. He is in the neighborhood of 87 by now.

[Caro's iPad]

Daddy, is it really raining and 35 degrees in Ankorage? I have minus 3 here in the Wasatch Mountains. Colder tomorrow.

[narciso]

Hentoff also spent some time at the Sorbonne, as a Fulbright scholar, according to the wiki.

[Captain Hate]

the Village Voice (which was at one time the best information on jazz clubs in the City)

True but it's become such a parody of itself that I don't know when the last time I bothered to pick one up and wade through all the garbage to find a nugget of useful info. I don't even know if they have any good music writers any more; or maybe I just reached a point of knowing more than they did.

Plus the clubs are always in flux as it's not easy making money at it. I've only been to the Vanguard once (they usually don't have anybody there I'm interested in) but I had a great time there; particularly because the sound was perfect.

[Thomas Collins]

Kapernick goes RG3 on the Packers.

[Danube of Thought iPad]

No mention of magazine capacity:

"Witnesses say two gunmen shot and killed a 14-year-old Chicago boy Friday night as he stood on his porch, and then left him to die in the front hallway of his own home, authorities said. The shooting came just hours after a 15-year-old boy was fatally shot in a separate attack. The death marks the sixth shooting of a teenager since Friday. Two male shooters opened fire about 11:50pm, hitting the boy multiple times in the chest, reports The Chicago Tribune."

[Captain Hate]

Well one example of how you can lose all perspective, is Stanley Crouch, he used to make some rather trenchant criticisms of the likes of Jesse Jackson, but he's gone full moonbat, in the last few years.

Troo dat. Crouch showed up at a jazz bbs where I still post and made a complete ass out of himself. He used to be a good writer (and a halfway decent drummer with the type of musicians that he ultimately turned his back on when he sold his soul for Marsalis Inc and the Lincoln Center Tower of Babel) but that was a long time and many damaged synapses ago.

[Thomas Collins]

OK, I should learn to spell his name correctly. Kaepernick.

31-24 Niners.

[Jane on Ipad]

Wow anonamom, wish I had known. We've been in several bars today, ending at Don Shulas in the Naples Hilton. Grey goose tastes good in all of them.

[Clarice]

This bizarre story keeps bubbling around the IT. Any thoughts?
http://spookdblog.blogspot.com/2013/01/hillarys-covert-action.html?spref=fb

[narciso]

It keeps popping up like a 'bad nickel' doesn't it, but truth is often stranger then fiction,

[Captain Hate]

Any thoughts?

Any other administration would have no chance of being involved in anything so extremely ill considered and amateurish. Needless to say I trust the Mossad more than the administration or MFM. Chelsea's dimwitted blathering is just the cherry on top of a crap sundae.

[Jack is Back]

Caro,

You guys have no idea about cold. Its 73F here in the Hammock and i am under a fleece outside. Get back in the hot tub:)

To Ex and all gun owners out there. Be careful how you annunciate your opinions. Obama death squads are active.

[Frau Schiessgewehr]

Today, my brother sent me an article that declared the U.S. has a gang problem not a gun problem. Obviously not a DNC article.

[Thomas Collins]

Clarice, I haven't followed the story enough to vet the assertions re timing. But I don't think it would be surprising if a high level US official was secretly negotiating with the Iranians. As far as Benghazi goes, I thought the Hillary health reports were so bizarre that it was as if the Administration was covering something up, as opposed to giving Hillary an excuse not to testify.

If true, it would be ironic that Hillary falsely claimed to be under fire on the tarmac when she wasn't, and then covered up what must have been a pretty harrowing experience.

[narciso]

Someone was saying, only focus on local law enforcement, well sometimes that doesn't work;

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/01/chicago-police-chief-well-shoot-licensed-civilians-with-guns/

[Clarice]

Myself--I think the story is bizarre. The critical info seems to be from Deka which at best is 50% right and 59% off the wall, but there is a lot of mystery around what ails her.

[Danube of Thought iPad]

This game is approaching l'histoire.

[Jack is Back]

Clarice,

To your 10:43 post. Yes. The key word in that whole fantasy is Depka (sic) which is really Debka - the most unreliable source in all of world of Mid East intrigue.

The story I heard is that Hillary was actually in Kenya meeting meeting with Lucy Ramierz who said she had a registered copy of Obama's Kenyan BC.

[Clarice]

Heh, JiB. The only reason this is floating about IMO is that the administration has been so opaque about everything including her health.
Niters.

[Rick Ballard]

"but there is a lot of mystery around what ails her"

I'll go with a defective seat belt on her bar stool.

[Jack is Back]

49er's are dominating this game to the extent that I am going to bed. Is it even remotely possible that we could have a Harbaugh v. Harbaugh Super Bowl?

Hey, so far its possible.

[Thomas Collins]

Kaepernick's rushing and passing excellence in this game is reminiscent of Keith Lincoln's rushing and receiving prowess in the 1963 AFL Championship Game.

[daddy]

Daddy, is it really raining and 35 degrees in Ankorage?

Yes it is Caro. Got down to 32 degrees down where I took the dogs today. Rainy, dreary, icy and slushy, all at the same time. We've had some very nice snow so far this year, but 2 williwah's (Chinook type winds) have roared in and melted all our beautiful stuff and made it miserable. On the plus side the local Weather folks say we're in for a blizzard next week. Fingers crossed:)

[Captain Hate]

Well done, TC; I don't remember any Bolts QBs before John Hadl. I remember seeing Lincoln's name but can't remember seeing a single play by him on NBC.

[Captain Hate]

"but there is a lot of mystery around what ails her"

I'll go with a defective seat belt on her bar stool.

Put me down for a bad batch of tuna

[Captain Hate]

Gus must be miserable. Eff San Francisco; when I was in Santa Cruz I felt I was in enemy territory.

[Captain Hate]

Except when Elliott met up with me, of course...

[Danube of Thought iPad]

Never forget the Ed Podolak game, TC.

As we sports scribes are wont to say, Green Bay has absorbed a savage drubbing.

[daddy]

They keep playing this stupid Volkswagon Commercial during the Football game of some moron dad spastically teaching his kid to throw a baseball like a spaz.

Is that somehow supposed to make people want to buy a Volkswagon? I don't get it. Who the heck is their target audience? It makes me want to hate VW and tell their Ad people to go to hell, and I'm a guy who used to like their cars.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

So far, the underdogs have won. The brothers Harbaugh have lived to fight another day. You can't say the games were dull.

[Jim Rhoads a/k/a vjnjagvet]

I'm with you, daddy. Another alpha male insult. And its a spot on an NFL game. Waddabunchofmaroons.

[Ignatz]

--I like what you did there.

Posted by: Elliott | January 12, 2013 at 10:10 PM--

I like it too now that you pointed out to me, Elliott. :(

[Ignatz]

--Never forget the Ed Podolak game, TC.--

What a team that was. Severely underrated or at least ignored, IMO. One of the greats of all time.
I was just the other day trying to think of a better linebacker corps than Lynch, Lanier and Bell.
Dawson, Taylor, Stenerud, Buchanan, Culp, Thomas and running it all, Stram.
I was a Raider's fanatic but recognized greatness when I saw it.

[Danube of Thought iPad]

Petition:

"Eliminate armed guards for the President, Vice-President, and their families, and establish Gun Free Zones around them.

"Gun Free Zones are supposed to protect our children, and some politicians wish to strip us of our right to keep and bear arms. Those same politicians and their families are currently under the protection of armed Secret Service agents. If Gun Free Zones are sufficient protection for our children, then Gun Free Zones should be good enough for politicians."

[Danube of Thought iPad]

"So far, the underdogs have won."

Vegas line had Niners giving three.

[Another Bob]

Ignatz,

Linebacker corps? Ham, Lambert, Russell.

[Elliott]

It makes me want to hate VW and tell their Ad people to go to hell

The physical characteristics of the father in that ad and the groom from the Big Day commercial of several years ago are similar enough that, in a flight of fancy, one could imagine the current ad to serve as an impish epilogue to that tale.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

Ham, Lambert and Russell got the ink and for a longer time but for the two or three years the Chiefs were monsters I'm not sure Lambert and co were as good.

[Tom Maguire]

But if the populace is substantially disarmed today, the likelihood of such a government in the next century increases. And there will be no means of resistance.

Well, how did they manage in Egypt? Assuming we maintain a modern economy, all sorts of civil disobedience will be effective. Of course, that assumes a large subset of the population is aggrieved, but that is a requirement for an effective armed insurrection as well.

And as a matter of political messaging, telling a recent emigre from Asia or Mexico that the US is on the verge of tyranny works best in a comedy club.

You should put in a few more hours and maybe take a look at the news in Afghanistan to see how poorly a few rifles in the hands of a minority fair against tanks and planes and helicopters.

"Minority"? The parallels between the history of the US and Afghanistan scarcely exist. They have had warlords and a weak central government since the post-Alexander the Great era, if not earlier.

[Ignatz Ratzkiwatzki]

"Minority" was your word. The number of people actively opposing the US with firearms in Afghnistan is a very small minority of their populace.

They are fighting primarily the US armed forces, which is the same force, or some fraction of it, that an insurrection here would be facing, not Hamid Karzhai's bodyguards.
Seems to me a pretty useful parallel.
As far as history is concerned we staged a revolution with an army that began as a group of armed citizens that ended up defeating the most powerful military in the world at the time, a military of a rather powerful central government.
Of course the ragtag Afghani's, always a largely citizen led insurrection managed to defeat just in the last couple of centuries the centralized powers of Britain, the USSR and the United States.
Seems to me there are lots if useful parallels to be found.

[JeffC]

the reason its crazy talk to think of American tyranny is because ... the government would never get that far gone ... why would it never get that far ... BECAUSE we have 300 million guns and counting THATS WHY ... no other reason ... so you see the 2nd already is doing its job ...

and this was one of the worst posts I've seen in a while ... you wanted to show how not to convince people to support the 2nd and failed to convince anyone that you have clue about how to convince anyone of anything ...

[Manuel Transmission]

so you see the 2nd already is doing its job ...

I sincerely hope you are right. My problem, and it is one I've have for quite some time, is that there are no consequences to anything done in our current and corrupt government. I am afraid, that like the utter incompetence displayed handling our debt/deficit, they are now too stoopid to recognize what they are facing.

[AliceH]

I've struggled to compose a comment here but can't quite get it to cohere. Here's my least-worst attempt:

I used to believe (as recently as a year ago) that civilian guns were pretty much for sport or self-defense. At that time I also believed the government was fully within its rights to impose "sensible" gun control measures. What changed my mind? The "crazy" talk TM advises against using - about the 2nd amendment acknowledging the power of the individual right to bear arms with the express purpose that in aggregate power of an armed citizenry deter and resist tyranny.

That the very idea of rebellion or insurrection strikes a lot of people as "crazy" is I think more reactionary than thoughtful, but fine. Let's say it is crazy. So let's then strip government of the power to declare Marshal Law, also Posse Comitatus, etc. After all, what is the likelihood of a situation arising where THOSE powers of the government be needed? When's the last time they were used anyway?

[Chris Kennedy]

Is it just me, or does anybody else think that if a community organizer/ marxist who comes from virtual obscurity can get himself in charge of the largest arsenal of thermo-nuclear weapons in the world, that I'd like to at least have a rifle that looks like a military one? I mean, since these folks are our employees - shouldn't we tell them to cram it when they want to disarm us?

[Cecil Turner]

I've struggled to compose a comment here but can't quite get it to cohere.

Having the same problem, but . . . First, the Second Amendment clearly envisions some sort of collective security measures by (common) people armed commensurately with a military force. Second, the framers' then-recent experience dealt with an insurrection and harassing the then-government power. Hence the idea that whatever the right is for, it can't be to limit the power of government is particularly hard to swallow. But the idea of a single armed individual (or evem a collection, a la Waco) standing up to the armed might of the government also seems ludicrous.

... the government would never get that far gone ...

I'm starting to lean this direction myself. As an historical parallel, the Boston Massacre was anything but a military success, but led to exactly the sort of reform (and limit on government) the framers would presumably desire . . . and it would've been impossible without an armed populace. It's harder to find a compelling modern equivalent, but there was significant pushback after Ruby Ridge and (to some degree) Waco, both of which would not have happened without armed civilians.

It seems to me the mechanism (and resultant government modification by popular demand) is somewhat similar, and that the Second Amendment can reasonably be viewed as vehicle to enable such. If not, it's awfully hard to justify a strict SA interpretation based only on the requirements for self-defense against criminals (or hunting).

[Porchlight]

If not, it's awfully hard to justify a strict SA interpretation based only on the requirements for self-defense against criminals (or hunting).

I think of it this way. At the time the 2nd was written it would have been ludicrous to imagine it necessary to enshrine the right to bear arms simply in order to defend oneself or to hunt. Of course people were going to own firearms for protection and food, as they had since guns were invented. There were no police forces in every town or grocery stores on every corner. Most of the colonial population would have perished long before the founding - or would perish afterwards - if it weren't for guns for those two purposes. To the founders, those uses of firearms were a given, an everyday fact of life.

It's only now, when our food and (most of) our safety needs are met so easily without owning guns, that we have to scratch our heads to figure out exactly what they thought was so necessary to establish in the 2nd. And it is, of course, defense against potential tyranny by government. That was the non-ordinary circumstance that had to be explicitly stated. Self-defense and hunting were ordinary and went unstated, akin to something like car ownership today.

[Manuel Transmission]

I have a vague recollection that cops didn't (weren't allowed to?) carry firearms until late in the nineteenth century. More like the bobbies. The point was in keeping with the state not having extraordinary power over the citizen. Anyone affirm that?