Gun Control Follies (NY Times, Ongoing)

With its latest headline the NY Times reassures us (yet again) that, yes, it actually has no idea what it is discussing when the topic turns to guns:

Pro-Gun Lawmakers Open to Size Limits on Bullet Cartridges

Do they mean, like, no more .44 Magnums for Dirty Harry? No, they don't. They are referring to limits on magazine capacity (aka the dreaded "high magazine clip"):

WASHINGTON — Senator Christopher S. Murphy, Democrat of Connecticut, is haunted by many things that emerged from the investigation of the December mass shooting at a Newtown elementary school. Among them is the nagging question of what prompted the gunman, Adam Lanza, to put down his rifle after killing 20 children and pick up the pistol he used to end his own life.

“We do know that historically in these instances, amateurs have trouble switching magazines,” Mr. Murphy said, referring to the high-capacity ammunition feeding device used by Mr. Lanza to shoot scores of bullets in seconds. “I believe, and many of the parents there believe, that if Lanza had to switch cartridges nine times versus two times there would likely still be little boys and girls alive in Newtown today.”

It is that conviction that has helped put fresh scrutiny on the size of magazines as Congress debates new gun laws.

While influential lawmakers in both parties view a proposed ban on assault weapons as politically toxic, lawmakers seem increasingly open to a ban on high-capacity magazines, like the 15- and 30-round devices that have been used in shooting rampages from Aurora, Colo., to Tucson, where Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords was shot in the head, to Newtown.

This is the "legitimate" news media upon which Joe Biden rests his gun control hopes.

UPDATE: Times editors are so on this. Their revised effort:

Pro-Gun Lawmakers Are Open to Limits on Size of Magazines

Comments

[Melinda Romanoff]

sbw-

Every strategy would be individually divided. No generics.

Liesman said slowdowns are only tied to the expiration of the 2% payroll tax expiration. Ignoring any other influences.

[NK]

"And how do you protect your savings, as best you can?"

That is the biggest personal financial question. So I scratched my head when some of the more 'conservative' fund operators on CNBC said they were rotating to cash, as they believe the equities run will soon be over. No doubt equities have played out, and will drop as soon as the FED HAS to start raising rates, but why is cash a safer play? I have no idea what to do, guess I'll become a survivalist and stock up on water purification gear, kerosene, MRE and ammunition.

[NK]

Liesman-- payroll tax hike-- yes; how about all-time february gas prices, flat wages and no job growth (Obamacare related).

I saw Liesman yesterday-- NO ONE is that stupid. What is he? the mandatory Comcast Obama mouthpiece?

[narciso]

Ah, facepalm with an old one, does anybody really take him seriously, rhetorical question

[AliceH]

Tip for first time gun owners: Whatever you paid for the gun, add another 2-3 hundred bucks for "gun stuff". At least.

[Melinda Romanoff]

NK-

He excels at Rolodex card collecting, in particular, political appointee cards. His news aggregator cost CNBC $10,000/month and was designed for fax machines. It's been updated to use e-mail. Sooperjeanyus.

[Appalled]

Politics has been so bleeding boring lately, that I have not had much interest in blogging. (If you read Obama enough, you realize he says the same darn thing over and over and over and over...). So, today, I blog something out of a 1953 novel, that sounds like the same darn thing Obama has been saying over and over and over again...

http://deathlessdialog.blogspot.com/2013/02/memes-that-never-die.html

[Janet]

I've been a painting fool lately. Dining room, living room, bathroom,...& now our bedroom. One thing I've learned is that I'm a lousy housekeeper. Good Lord! Behind & under furniture there is major grime happening.
Don't know what's got into me...tidying my home before the country collapses... :(

[Rick Ballard]

"Yes,but would such civil disobedience happen in today's society?"

Kat,

The predicate for the type of disobedience which DoT specified is general contempt for lawmakers and the laws which they pass. The Volstead Act provides one illustration but it's not the only one.

The level of contempt for lawmakers may be the impetus for the current flare up in gun grabbing, leaving aside the underlying and preexistent commie/fascist dreams held by the President and the CPUSA which he represents.

I lean towards Derwill's examples as being much more probable than organized armed resistance. We're heading towards nullification, both by passage of preventive legislation in Free States and by juries manifesting their contempt for this thoroughly rotten government by refusing to convict.

Watch for the rejection of Federal largesse by Louisiana, Texas and Oklahoma, accompanied by the imposition of state levies on oil products refined in those states. The Free State choke hold is rather obvious.

[narciso]

It's the Journolitico, but there is nothing new with Obama, it's like his syllabi at U Chicago in '96.

Morning Joke, all agrees, the king's audience should happen at his pleasure.

[Chubby]

During Hannity's interview with Dr. Carson, an African American concerned about the state of the breakdown of the black families asked Carson what could be done about it. Carson said that the traditionla idea of a family with a mom and dad and kids has been diminished by pc. The pc way is to think and believe that single parent families families are equal in every way to the traditional family structure, thus people don't think the traditional strucure matters any more.

[Sue]

Janet,

LOL. Kind of like your mother telling you to make sure you have clean underwear on in the event of an auto accident, no? If the country collapses at least they won't find dust bunnies under the living room sofa.

[NK]

Nothing new with Obama-- very true observation. He throws some cronies in his Court some crumbs (OK they cost the taxpayers Billions) and the media slags in the Court sit up and clap like trained seals. It's all very Bourbonesque-- like the Bourbons JEF never learns anything or forgets anything, and like LouisXV, le deluge arrivee apres JEF.

[narciso]

Meant to ask, Sue, did you see the new Diehard, if so, what did you think?

[NK]

MelR-- so is liesman really THAT stoopit, or is he just the GE/Comcast Obama cheerleader prop?

[Stephanie]

Both.

[Captain Hate]

Morning Joke, all agrees, the king's audience should happen at his pleasure.

Did Princess Meeka join in with little cooing sounds?

[NK]

Stephanie-- fair enough. Working from home and watching some CNBC taught me I can never do either one consistently. Liesman was so stunningly wrong about.... EVERYTHING.. it was really shocking to me.

[Melinda Romanoff]

I originally thought it was the "I wanna be a cheerleader because all the Kewl Kids at work do it.". That was easily dismissed after one breakfast with him and Rick.

He's so convinced of his own jeanyus that stoopid can't even begin to cover it. Also. if you disagree with his ideas, it's because he's Jewish. He actually said that to my face.

[NK]

CaptH-- I know the NCAA is an ethical cesspool, but it's pretty clear that Donna Shalala turned the U of Miami athletic dept over to the boosters who turned it into a South Beach bacchanal: http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootball/story/miami-hurricanes-accused-of-lack-of-institutional-control-by-ncaa-021913

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

--Ignatz,

I do know the timber/lumber relationship but I didn't realize there was a paucity of small/medium mills capable of meeting the CME contract specs.--

Rick,
The small and medium mills subsisted mostly on Federal sales, which are a small fraction of what they used to be, rather than their own land base and so are mostly gone. I'm only aware of one good sized mill in CA without a substantial land base and it only survives because it is south of Fresno and is the only proper saw mill from Modesto to Mexico and the geographical isolation gives it sole access to all the southern private wood.

I agree that lumber prices are not supported by domestic demand. However a trade mag mentioned that Asian exports were pretty strong due to lack of Russian lumber and domestic inventories are pretty low also.
Lumber does tend to rise in the first half of most, but obviously not all, years.

[NK]

Liesman-- Ok. And yesterday anyway-- he was stunningly wrong.

[Jane: Mock the Media]

don't know, Jane. Seems like people didn't look to the federal govt. for help years ago.

In my mother's case it was working 3 jobs and getting a masters in her spare time.

I just can't figure out how she is a liberal.

[Melinda Romanoff]

NK-

I believe Shalala has converted that venerable institution into a campaign ATM. Tossing control to the boosters just upped the booster participation, and increased the level of skim the administration can work with.

Strategery on student welfare, using Fed dollars to finance the expansion of the cash loop.

[NK]

Ig-- lumber is a hard commodity-- its value increases in Dollar terms as the Dollar collapses, even if intrinsic supply-demand doesn't cause an intrinsic price increase. Ride the currency collapse wave you lucky commodity owner-- but like the rest of us -- the question for you is which bursts first the commodity bubble, or the debased currencies?

[narciso]

This is the other shoe that hadn't dropped yet;

http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/20/documents-hagel-staffers-met-with-front-group-for-iranian-regime/#ixzz2LS7M1gmV

[Extraneus]

Yes, They Do Want To Go Door-to-door Confiscating Weapons

I spoke to two of the sponsors. One, Sen. Adam Kline, D-Seattle, a lawyer who typically is hyper-attuned to civil-liberties issues, said he did not know the bill authorized police searches because he had not read it closely before signing on.

“I made a mistake,” Kline said. “I frankly should have vetted this more closely.”

Turns out "he was sponser of sponsor of an assault weapons bill in the 2009-2010 session which contained the EXACT SAME PROVISION."

[Captain Hate]

The U was out of control before Stumpy got there imo. The basketball team is tearing up the ACC.

[NK]

CaptH-- absolutely, U Miami athletics was was run by the boosters for 20 years late 70s-late 90s, Shalala got the Pres job in part to 'clean it up.' So much for that.

[cathyf]

Above DoT quoted Delingpole, and I went looking for the source. What I found was better -- yesterday Delingpole quoted himself and then published a brilliant call to arms that a reader sent to him in response to it: Why We Fight II.

Go read it.

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

Agreed NK.

On the "revolution" idea; since I was the one to use the term let me say it may very well take the form of mass civil disobedience as DoT notes and may therefore short circuit a real revolution.
If lefties accrete more and more power it is unlikely they will act with restraint. Have they ever historically?
If they do not heed the civil disobedience I cannot envision the gun owners I know meekly handing over what they consider their birthright.
Americans aren't exceptional but our institutions are and the institution and tradition of private individual gun ownership is at once the most deeply entrenched and least susceptible to easy governmental usurpation.
We are not the UK or Eastern Europe or even Canada. Much smaller and much more poorly armed minorities than the gunowners of America have turned countries upside down.

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

Wonderful letter, cathy.

[Melinda Romanoff]

NK-

I need to find an LSE video for you on where the value in a good is stored. Breathtaking concept that would be most useful for many.

[Extraneus]

How will it go down, Ig? I offered a little vignette a few weeks ago about once having had my guns confiscated. Totally different situation - a surprise and bogus restraining order, nothing to do with new gun laws - but I shared it because it was close to what we're talking about. In my case, the deputy was apologetic, sympathetic, courteous, just doing his job. I had no choice and gave him my guns. (Irrelevent aside: Big hassle getting them back, even with the support of my then-wife, who was shocked to find out about the whole thing, but that's the way the disgustingly unfair system works against men.)

Here's the question: When the sheriff rings the doorbell, what are you going to do? Shoot him? Seriously, if it gets that far, and CA passes a confiscation law after some mass shooting next year or ten years from now, what are you really going to do when the bell rings?

[Janet]

Cathy's link is GREAT!

"...we need men of moral conviction and integrity to build us a platform to hoist a. Clear banner that we can get behind"

Sue, I think you are right! hah!

I just can't figure out how she is a liberal.

I can't either with my neighbors & my in-laws...so many libs live mostly conservative lives but vote Dem., especially middle & upper-middle class. It's like that is their compassion. They vote for the govt. to take care of people. The ol' "someone should" problem. Someone should help them...not ME...but someone should.

[sbw]

Registering weapons is a poor approach.

If people interested in acquiring firearms passed a background check for felonies or mental instability, we would not have to register firearms at all.

Part of Second Amendment "Truth to power" is the government not exactly knowing how many firearms I might own.

[Chubby]

off topic, but at first I thought for sure that Pistorius murdered his girlfriend in cold blood, but after hearing side of the story I am wondering if his story , that he thought there were intruders, in the bathroom is credible. Would a responsible gun owner behave as he did?

[Janet]

YEah, Extraneus. That's your post I referred to last night.

[Chubby]

this is the part of Duncan's letter than resonated the most with me:

((..we long for a chance to vote our way back to sanity, but there is no one whoo is offering us that option, we need men of moral conviction and integrity to build us a platform to hoist a. Clear banner that we can get behind))

the only thing the right lacks is a leader while the poor Brits are stuck with that sorry excuse Cameron.

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

--How will it go down, Ig? I offered a little vignette a few weeks ago about once having had my guns confiscated.--

There is a vastly different mentality involved between a single case of a phony restraining order and a state or nationwide gun confiscation scheme.

--When the sheriff rings the doorbell, what are you going to do?--

Well first of all the sheriff is a cousin of mine and like many sheriffs of rural counties I doubt he would ring anyone's doorbell.
Second, if he does, he will not enter my home without a constitutionally valid search warrant, which he would not have. I would defend my home against an unlawful intruder like any other, or would, upon the first instances of violence against gun owners, already have coordinated with others to resist collectively.
Third and fourth possibilities exist of course of mass migrations from slave states to free ones if it is a state law and the hiding and burial of guns. Many, many "assault weapons" were buried here in CA when the gun ban was first passed. There was a cottage industry of water proof containers for sale at gun shows and gun classifieds.

Those of us brought up in what might be called the gun culture deeply believe the possibly anachronistic idea that private gun ownership is a sacred right and take seriously the idea that the armed citizen is the last bulwark against tyrants.
If a state begins forcibly stealing firearms and shooting resistors it has crossed a line that a restraining order in no way is comparable to.
The American Revolution didn't occur even after innumerable individual events and slights. It acquired a collective inertia when the colonies were under a uniform oppression and the mentality of the founders knew they were at a point of no return. Governments go too far and things snowball far more unpredictably than they ever think they will. See the USSR C. 1989.

[Manuel Transmission]

Ext, Here's the question: When the sheriff rings the doorbell, what are you going to do? Shoot him? Seriously, if it gets that far, and CA passes a confiscation law after some mass shooting next year or ten years from now, what are you really going to do when the bell rings?

Yes, I think that is the micro-tipping point. The first 10 or 100 may behave in the old, expected way and then someone says bullshit and pulls the trigger. After that, it takes about five minutes for the cops with more than room temp IQs to say never mind.

As I've tried to verbalize before, I don't think there is a realistic game plan at DHS or anywhere else that can conceivably execute a viable response to this kind of grassroots reaction.

[Extraneus]

Here's how I think it'll go, one state at a time. (The holdouts will be denied various federal funding until they buckle under.)

First, you get a letter in the mail.

"Enclosed is a list of the firearms in your posession that are covered by the 2014 Gun Safety Act. As you know, these firearms must be surrendered at the address below before September 30th. In return, the State will compensate you for the fair market values as listed on the form.

Failure to comply with this order is a felony violation of the Gun Safety Act, punishable by a $10,000 fine and not more than ten years in prison for each firearm not surrendered."

At that point, 95% of the recipients of the letter will surrender their guns on schedule. The remaining dead-enders will be dealt with one by one.

Obviously, the time for serious resistance is before any of this can happen. Once they take out the majority of armed citizens, the game is over.

[Manuel Transmission]

Ext, I really think you are not knowing the people I've spent nearly seven decades around. No way in hell. So, lets say half roll over. That's still 50 million telling then to pound sand. This won't be like finding the guy who cheated on his income taxes.

[jimmyk]

" Would a responsible gun owner behave as he did?"

Under no circumstances that I can think of would a responsible gun owner shoot blindly without knowing who or what he is shooting at. Not necessarily the specific identity, but at least bad guy vs good guy. Assuming she lived with him, or at least he knew she was or might be in the house, how do you not try to ascertain who is in the bathroom? And does a home intruder usually go into the bathroom and close the door? Not without first subduing everyone in the house, I would think.

[jimmyk]

" Governments go too far and things snowball far more unpredictably than they ever think they will. See the USSR C. 1989. "

Truro, but most examples, aside from 1776 and 1989' don't turn out so well.

[Extraneus]

I hope you're right, MT. I don't remember reading even one story of armed resistance to England's or Australia's confiscations, but I guess the media would have kept them under wraps if there were any. Maybe there were examples, I don't know.

[Chubby]

((I don't remember reading even one story of armed resistance to England's or Australia's confiscations, ))

I don't think either Canada or Australia had anything like a 2nd Amendment. That part of the Constitution is one of the exceptional things about the U.S.A.

[Chubby]

even without a 2nd Amendment, Canadians were very upset about their long gun registry, and it was ended by the Harper government.

[Jimmyk]

Truro = true

[Melinda Romanoff]

Ex-

I would also expect a massive gun theft reported, after some sort of delay.

[cathyf]

I would also expect that there would be REAL massive gun thefts, as the government's registration lists became public and the crooks went to get the guns before the cops got there. Sort of like when the newspaper printed the list, but over the whole country.

[AliceH]

--Enclosed is a list of the firearms in your posession... --

How would they know what is in my possession?

[Melinda Romanoff]

cathyf-

Many friends were thinking their respective "thefts" through while Lisa debated with herself over publishing The Ownership Registry.

[AliceH]

Also "... fair market values ..." of illegal guns is $0.

Black market value - that's a different thing altogether.

[Extraneus]

How would they know what is in my possession?

Registration.

[AliceH]

Okay. Registration. Big huge unlikely prerequisite there, but let's say it happens.

So before deciding not to comply with a future gun confiscation law, millions of gun owners will decide not to comply with a future registration law.

I've seen studies showing compliance with prior state-level registration laws estimated to be in the 5-10% range.

[Extraneus]

True, states with no registration would be relatively safe for now. Others require each handgun to be separately permitted, which is de facto registration. NY just passed a registration requirement for "assault" weapons with a 1/15/14 deadline, so we'll get some idea of the level of compliance next year.

[AliceH]

Related: Now up to 15 gun manufacturers/retailers refusing to sell some/any of their products to NY State government/agencies/police.

[AliceH]

re: link at 3:20 - now 18.

[Ignatz Ratzkywatzky]

--Truro, but most examples, aside from 1776 and 1989' don't turn out so well.

Posted by: jimmyk | February 20, 2013 at 12:59 PM--

All I'm guaranteeing is a revolution.
Do I have to guarantee how well it's run too? :)