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April 30, 2013

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peter

I don't even know what a UKIP is but I want to be first on the thread. LUN

richatgmu

UK Independence Party. Probably the most coherent of the anti-EU and anti-Euro parties.

richatgmu

still having posting problems.

henry

Heh. Peter I think Duke & Duke could use a wedgie.

Marlene

How about that Tsarnaev family? Despite welfare fraud,domestic violence,shoplifting and pot dealing,they were just regular folks. Unbelievable. The welfare system is broken at every level,federal,state and local.
A huge fire consumed three apartment buildings in Lewiston(ME). The tenants heard an explosion before the fire started to rage out of control.One of the buildings was condemned and had squatters living in it,all fine tax paying citizens,I'm sure.UGH,probably a meth lab. 75 people are homeless.What a world.

sbw

On the previous thread Jane was discussing libertarian vs. conservative.

Jane, I'm not quite sure what conservatives are trying to conserve, because past practice isn't necessarily good practice.

I tend towards libertarianism but not as misrepresented by others as anti-social. Real libertarianism believes in community.

Clarice

David Burge ‏@iowahawkblog 21h
It was obvious. Jason Collins is the only guy in the NBA not defending a paternity suit. #gaydar

bgates

I'm not quite sure what conservatives are trying to conserve, because past practice isn't necessarily good practice

"Not quite sure", huh? Let me give you some choices:

A) The Constitution of the United States
B) The New Deal
C) Slavery

Could you take an educated guess?

Ignatz

--Jane, I'm not quite sure what conservatives are trying to conserve, because past practice isn't necessarily good practice.--

Um, the good stuff?
And I say that as a fairly pure economic libertarian and a person who is personally socially conservative but still very hesitant about state intervention in areas where people are primarily harming themselves.

NK

Bros Tsar/Welfare-- The Soc Sec and MediCare train wreck is proceeding as scheduled and predicted for over 25 years. That's national bankruptcy in and of itself. But what's developed during the last 15 years, and has violently accelerated during the past 4 years of POTUS community organizer -- far worse than the worst case projections-- is Welfare Entitlements. MediCaid, ObummerCareMediCaid, SNAP,ADC, extended unemployment, and of course SocSec Disability, combined running more than $100B more/year than FY 2007. The combination of bringing in the poor immigration (illegal AND legal) the dead Obummer economy and Obummer welfare industry support is accelerating national bankruptcy.

Rob Crawford
Jane, I'm not quite sure what conservatives are trying to conserve...

Does the word "liberty" mean anything to you?

sbw

Rob, libertarians also conserve liberty. I'm trying to learn what distinguishes conservatives from them.

Threadkiller

No "birther" conservatives allowed.

sbw

So libertarians are fiscal conservatives and social liberals while conservatives tend mostly to be both fiscal and social conservatives?

sbw

Also, Libertarians AND conservatives both tend to be constitutionalists.

NK

Conservative?-- silent Cal Coolidge had as good a pocket definition of political conservatism I've ever seen. http://www.libertylawsite.org/2013/04/28/silent-cals-6-simple-rules-for-a-confused-president-obama/

Rob Crawford
Rob, libertarians also conserve liberty.

Really? What have they accomplished?

Ignatz

--I'm trying to learn what distinguishes conservatives from them.--

IMO libertarianism is an ideology in that it has a formulaic view of the world which descends from classical liberalism and the enlightenment.

Conservatism is not an ideology in that it has no particular formula to fit the world into but rather seeks to identify and promote those traditions and values that have stood the test of time and proven themselves useful in maximizing liberty and sustaining it.

The great weakness of libertarianism is that it is an ideology and hence can ignore reality when it rears its unpleasant head.

The great weakness of conservatism is it can too readily compromise with reality when it rears its unpleasant head.

I tend toward libertarianism because I find the threat represented by its rigid ideology less than the threat of a compromising conservatism which ultimately compromises the left into absolute power, as we've seen with the glacial advance of the welfare state for the last fifty years as conservatives have ceded more and more ground.

Rob Crawford
I tend toward libertarianism because I find the threat represented by its rigid ideology less than the threat of a compromising conservatism which ultimately compromises the left into absolute power, as we've seen with the glacial advance of the welfare state for the last fifty years as conservatives have ceded more and more ground.

I generally agree.

But what have libertarians actually accomplished?

DoT on iPad

I blame global warming:

"Images of a massive hurricane raging inside a strange hexagonal weather pattern at Saturn´s north pole have recently been released by NASA, revealing a mystery inside an even bigger mystery. The hurricane is enormous and violent--more than 20 times the size of the average hurricane on Earth, with winds gusting at speeds four times what they would be on our planet. "

Rob Crawford

Or, I guess I should say "what have Libertarians actually accomplished?" Most of what can be touted as "libertarian accomplishments" in recent decades has been done by conservative Republicans.

Jane on Ipad

TBH I don't really care what LIV think "libertarian" means. I want to encourage people to stop self-identifying as liberals, when they are only socially liberal. Then we show them a video of the Gosnell operating room and we have them. (Actually that last line was sort of a joke).

The guy I spoke to last night is a liberal because he doesn't hate gays and thinks he shouldn't get into woman's issues. FIne. But he is fiscally conservative and that is what he should be emphasizing in his brain. The problem is, he is afraid of backlash. Being a libertarian gives him cover. (Telling him my biz partner is a conservative lesbian didn't hurt.)

Janet

TBH I don't really care what LIV think "libertarian" means. I want to encourage people to stop self-identifying as liberals, when they are only socially liberal.

Totally agree with Jane.

Ignatz

My conservative and libertarian bones are both disgusted and puzzled with the latest news from Blue Shield.

The CA insurance commissioner has directed that BS must not only cover health care procedures for those in gender transition but cannot deny covered procedures they provide one sex for those in gender transition who may be enrolled as another sex.

I'm not sure, but the best I can decipher this, it means men becoming women may now not only have their tallywhackers whacked off but may also have their hysterectomies covered.
Presumably women becoming men are also now eligible for prostate exams and vasectomies.

What I am sure of, it's gonna cost me some coin.

DoT on iPad

I call myself libertarian, but am willing to accept publicly financed highways.

pagar

Good Morning!

This is a test!

AliceH

Rob - Not sure why you are purposely conflating ideology/views with political party labels (I know you understand the distinction). By that standard, I guess my political views don't exist, since I'm not registered with any political party.

Ignatz

--But what have libertarians actually accomplished?

Posted by: Rob Crawford | April 30, 2013 at 10:25 AM--

Well, I suppose if you count classical liberals like Thomas Jefferson and James Madison as libertarians, which IMO you should, then I'd say quite a lot.

If you count them only as modern day dope smokers or pitiful third party doofuses then very little.

Ignatz

Is anyone else as amused as me watching lefties doubling down on the South Carolina congressional contest?

We have discovered that the party of William Jefferson Clinton now thinks extra marital affairs are extremely germane to qualifications for holding public office.

On top of that we are now informed that not only are second rate actors qualified to serve, but the sisters of third rate comedians are as well.

jimmyk

Reposting from the previous thread:

The only irreconcilable difference between conservative Republicans and libertarians, I suspect, is due to libertarians' insistence on isolationism in foreign affairs. I think that's a naive extension of the notion of self-reliance to countries, one that disregards the idea that it can be in our self-interest to exert our influence and power abroad. Libertarians seem to think we can be like Switzerland in foreign affairs.

I would also commend Janet's post from the night before last, which I won't try to link, where she quotes GK Chesterton (or quotes someone quoting GKC). A difference in temperament is that conservatives show some deference to institutions and conventions that we have inherited. Libertarians sometimes want to start from scratch, not recognizing that perhaps there are good reasons for some apparently restrictive practices (like the state's involvement in marriage). There is probably an ideal balance to be found between the two views.

Rob Crawford
Not sure why you are purposely conflating ideology/views with political party labels...

I am? Isn't that what the Libertarians are doing?

Sorry -- most self-proclaimed "libertarians" annoy me because they're cranks. And I'm in a particularly cranky mood today. Maybe I shouldn't even be online.

maryrose

I guess at heart I am a republican. I want less government. I want the Constitution to be followed to the letter. I do not think Obamacare or regulating guns is constitutional.
I couldn't care less about gay marriage. I oppose abortion vehemently and hope Gosnell and Planned Parenthood get what they deserve. As long as Bammy is president PP continues to get our money. That is why it is imperative to elect a Republican president and cut thenm off. This past weekend PBS held their annual auction. They raised a ton of money. They don't need our hard earned taxpayer dollars to fund them.

Danube of Thought

If I can persuade just one child that birtherism has nothing whatsoever to do with conservatism, my life will not have been lived in vain.

Rob Crawford
The only irreconcilable difference between conservative Republicans and libertarians, I suspect, is due to libertarians' insistence on isolationism in foreign affairs. I think that's a naive extension of the notion of self-reliance to countries, one that disregards the idea that it can be in our self-interest to exert our influence and power abroad. Libertarians seem to think we can be like Switzerland in foreign affairs.

While simultaneously regarding the concept of national sovereignty and citizenship with disgust; they see no problem with 1/3rd of Mexico's adults coming to the US to work.

The "free movement of labor" sounds wonderful, but frankly I'll take America's ill-educated and unskilled over those of a nation run for most of a century by an "institutional revolutionary party".

maryrose

I am ok with Libertarians but there will never be enough of them to form as big a political party as the dems and the repubs.
Carney got defensive yesterday when Bill Plante asked him if the WH was manipulating the sequester.
Bammy supposed to hold a presser today. More lies to follow. Think anyone will have the cohones to ask him about Benghazi?

peter

Think anyone will have cojones period.

Dublindave

I See George Zimmerman has put on a lot of weight.

More cushion for the pushing'

Ignatz

The American Spectator has been very good the last few days. Take a look.

Too many good articles to link individually.
That, and I can't actually link anything anyway.

maryrose

I think our foreign involvement is over extended. I know we give too much money to ungrateful people that hate us. I say until our own fiscal house is in order, we declare a moratorium on propping up Palestine, Egypt, Iran, Syria, or any place where jihadis dance in the streets when American citizens are killed.

Clarice

Excellent, Iggy.

maryrose

peter:
That is so true. According to Glenn Thrush it is already a rigged job.

Djohn36755

I have not posted here (or really anywhere) since the election. Has anyone seen any credible research/discussions on this federal judge Bowler that intervened in the Boston bomber's interrogation? Thanks!

Ignatz

--I am ok with Libertarians but there will never be enough of them to form as big a political party as the dems and the repubs.--

Only partially true. There are more libertarians who identify as Republicans than there are in the Libertarian Party. This leaves the impractical ones and the cranks carrying the banner of libertarianism which serves, not coincidentally, to make libertarians look like a bunch of dope smokers and doofuses.

Jane on Ipad

I think most people identify as libertarians because they are afraid of the backlasah associated with identifying as conservatives. I say one step at a time. I do not insist on purity. If we can get those so-called libertarians to prioritize fiscal concerns they will vote republican. My guess is many so called libertarians have not become such because of isolationism, but because of backlash.

The horrible man on my TV says that Boston is just like Newtown and Aurora. Apparently terrorism is just another crackpot.

NK

Ed Henry Fox asked Obummer about Benghazi whistleblowers being threatened...
Obummer follows with Sgt Schultz "I KNOW NUTHINK"

TexasIsHeaven

"Has anyone seen any credible research/discussions on this federal judge Bowler that intervened in the Boston bomber's interrogation? Thanks!"
Posted by: Djohn36755 | April 30, 2013 at 11:01 AM

My understanding is the guy was just a magistrate - not a federal judge. I think that is about the same as a JP here in Texas. No experience necessary - just get elected or appointed. Hell, I could have my dog elected as a JP in Liberty County and it is probably the same in Boston.

peter

Here in New York, federal magistrates are generally appointed, and have to pass some kind of qualifications with the bar associations. I have been before a few who were quite sharp, and some not so much.

Danube of Thought

Apparently Glenn Beck said that the cops searching door0-to-door looking for that mass murderer in Boston was like the Nazis searching for Jews.

sailor

had the radio on--program interrupted for O's press conference. I simply cannot stand the man! He is so arrogant. Says he is not aware of Benghazi informants being threatened by the State Dept. and White House with firing if they come forward to tell what they know. Who believes this? I know, I know, LIVs.

sbw

My compliments to the JOM crew. My question was serious and you have all helped to tease out the issues that have to be addressed. Thanks muchly.

jimmyk

Sailor, so they are actually asking about Benghazi? That's good news, even if Odumbo is dissembling in response.

sailor

jimmyk, Ed Henry of Fox News was asking--no one else asked or asked a follow up question--of course.

Threadkiller

"I call myself libertarian, but am willing to accept publicly financed highways."

I don't see that as being inconsistent with libertarian values. Libertarians accept a publicly financed military. How the financing is administered and State v Fed control would be the issues.

"If I can persuade just one child that birtherism has nothing whatsoever to do with conservatism, my life will not have been lived in vain."

If the best conservative candidate that could win was a birther, would you convince the child to never vote for such a person when he/she is of age?

matt

A lot of libertarianism is conservatism without the God thing. Non-judgmental, live and let live. Stay out of people's business.

I can only go so far with that as I believe that a set of religion based values is essential to the whole morality thing and to our legal system. Wrong is wrong, and the moral code upon which our society is based devolves from the Talmud and New Testament.

The breakdown began with Nietzsche and continued with existentialism. Each has certain truths but centrally, they are false as they reach some demonstrably false conclusions.

If anyone has read Jefferson's bible one can understand the quandary of the Enlightenment. Jefferson believe that Christ walked the earth and contributed the greatest moral code, but did not believe in the miracles. A very interesting position.

Washington spoke of the Divine with as much intensity as anyone and more moral force, and yet his religion was a completely private affair.

Franklin was a hedonist as much as anything. His faith was that of the Voltaires and "advanced" thinkers.

Adams was a New Englander with that strong strain of righteousness and deep faith.

So it takes all kinds in the end. This is simplistic, but it's difficult to really go there on a thread.

Dave (in MA)

http://bostonherald.com/ The Herald has a Drudgesque choice of photo for the NBA coming-out story.

Threadkiller

"Apparently Glenn Beck said that the cops searching door0-to-door looking for that mass murderer in Boston was like the Nazis searching for Jews."

And I was worried about Aldo instead of Aldolf.

Priorities...

narciso

I was remiss in not asking about your nephew, Clarice and your sister, Jane, seeing as my mother's operation went well

Greenfield, I believe made a note abour Judge Bowler's lectures in Middle East courts,

jimmyk

So it takes all kinds in the end.

Agreed. I think Jane's and maybe sbw's query is about whether we can somehow unite over our agreements and swallow the differences. My sense is that conservative Rs would be more open to compromise than libertarians, too many of whom tend to be absolutist. (And I count myself as one with libertarian sympathies.) But I'd rather the Rs pursue them than the squishes in the middle.

Jack is Back! (On his iPad)

What were the founding fathers? Consevatives, Libertarians or a combination of both? They sure as hell were not today's democrats or today's GOP.

Got an hour to go before boarding my flight. Lo and behold, its on time. So much for the phony sequester.

jimmyk

JiB, they were 90% libertarian, just not like today's more extreme version. Revolutionaries can't be very conservative. But they were trying to put something in place that would be worth conserving.

Clarice

lad to hear that, narciso. I won't know aboutmy nephew for a couple of weeks. Surgery is scheduled for May 10.

Jane on Ipad

Bowler is a woman appointed by Clinton in 1990. She has given several speeches in Muslim countries and was given a special recognition by some Muslim country, maybe Egypt.

pagar

""Has anyone seen any credible research/discussions on this federal judge Bowler that intervened in the Boston bomber's interrogation? Thanks!"

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/04/judge-marianne-bowler-who-mirandized-boston-bomber-has-ties-to-muslim-countries/

Jack is Back! (On his iPad)

Dave (In MA),

Mumbles doesn't realize that both the terror watch list and no fly list are terribly inaccurate. I think there are like 21,000 on the no fly list, a lot of whom are WASPy Americans who can't get off and the Feds won't tell them why.

Janet

The Herald has a Drudgesque choice of photo for the NBA coming-out story.

What an absurd "show" playing out in the MFM. The President of the United States congratulating a citizen for the kind of sex the guy likes????
We are definitely rotting.

Ignatz

--a lot of whom are WASPy Americans who can't get off and the Feds won't tell them why--

The comic possibilities are nearly endless. :)

DoT on iPad

"If the best conservative candidate that could win was a birther, would you convince the child to never vote for such a person when he/she is of age?"

Yes, although I reject the premise that such a loon could ever be the best conservative candidate who could win. To be a birther, either of the Obama-not-born-in-Hawaii stripe or the two-parent variety, betrays such a lack of sound judgment and temperament as to preclude fitness for the office.

Gus

Obama, Rodham, Holder, and Kerry all seem to think being incompetent is an excuse for screwups. None of them every take responsibility for the jobs they are responsible for. It's a liberal mind set. Nothing is ever a liberals fault. The list of excuses that Obama makes is astounding. Hannity lists them from time to time. Obama's undoing (should that ever happen), will be his cavalier hubris.

hit and run

Does the two-parent variety of birther deny Obama's immaculate conception?

Porchlight

TBH I don't really care what LIV think "libertarian" means. I want to encourage people to stop self-identifying as liberals, when they are only socially liberal.

Makes sense, but social liberals cling to their social-liberal-ness and explicitly do not want to be associated with icky social conservatives. Some of them with fiscal sense will choose the libertarian moniker. The rest couldn't care less about the expansion of government; in fact they celebrate it, because it furthers their social goals and makes them feel extra specially pious.

My view is that social liberalism inexorably leads to fiscal liberalism. There has never been a society on earth that is fiscally conservative and socially liberal, or not one that lasted more than ten minutes anyway. Social liberalism leads to government programs to fix social problems which leads to bigger government and less liberty. Libertarianism thus contains within it the seeds of its own failure.

hit and run

(I meant virgin birth. I do that all the time)

Porchlight

I can only go so far with that as I believe that a set of religion based values is essential to the whole morality thing and to our legal system.

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --John Adams

Lots more here: http://www.liberty1.org/virtue.htm

When we say that certain behaviors only harm the person doing the behaving, we neglect the fact that if that person becomes helpless as a consequence of his behavior then he becomes a burden on the state. The founders were convinced that their experiment rested on the backs of virtuous and productive citizens and that it would fail if the country sank into vice.

NK

JiB@12:14-- REWRITE!

NK

"The President of the United States congratulating a citizen for the kind of sex the guy likes????"

HMM.... Did Bath House Barry make the telephone sign and say 'Call me Jase'

Captain Hate

The Herald has a Drudgesque choice of photo for the NBA coming-out story.

If I were a homo, I'd be offended that the only two players who felt compelled to "come out" are talentless mutts known previously for being tall and barely on the rosters. Allstar or STFU.

matt

well, there were questions about Magic Johnson back in the day.

Gus

Yeah, Aweseom, Jason Collins likes men. National effing news.

Ignatz

--Libertarianism thus contains within it the seeds of its own failure.--

Modern libertarianism does because much of it has shorn itself of God and godly principles, sometimes known as Western Civilization.

The classical liberalism of the Founding Fathers was well tempered with the spirit of Judeo Christian culture and values, which inculcate libertarianism with the restraining good sense of conservatism.

Modern libertinism, whether of the leftwing or the libertarian variety, carries within it the seeds of failure because it rejects what made society sustainable.

jimmyk

Social liberalism leads to government programs to fix social problems which leads to bigger government and less liberty.

You really think so, Porch? I think that's conflating two kinds of "Social liberal," one that is more libertarian (just leave me alone) and the other that wants to fix "social problems" like poverty, etc. I don't think there's very much overlap. Milton Friedman was willing to tolerate a minimal welfare state (really just a negative income tax) on the argument that there's a free rider problem with helping the poor, but that's about as far as it goes.

Captain Hate

Really, matt? Maybe you're more privy to the talk in circles about that than I am but the only thing I've heard about Magic regarding that was that he was a voluminous cooch hound. Of course that's back when all the NPR listeners were assuring me with 100% confidence and furrowed brows that AIDS was becoming a primarily straight disease; so maybe I was distracted by that "fact".

Jane on Ipad

Porch,

Many years ago I had a multi-week conversation with a liberal on a message board. It became clear, and he actually admitted that liberals believe that the point of the law is to change human nature to be how they think it should be. The problem is, it never ever succeeds which is why there have to be more and more laws.

Threadkiller

What about a pro-choice best candidate that can win?

Do they lack sound judgement?

narciso

It was likely he was indescriminate, although not at the Wilt Chamberlain level,

NK

Magic Johnson-- reportedly a man of expansive appetites.

Gus

Pro-choice. The term is Orwellian, and many on our side accept it.

narciso

Hell, no, there was a depraved indifference to the action, that procludes such a charge;

Threadkiller

How about a homosexual best candidate, that enjoys his partners schlong deep in his chute, that can win?

Does he lack sound judgement?

James D.

Porch @ 12:47 and 12:54 - you said it perfectly.

Captain Hate

Pro-choice. The term is Orwellian, and many on our side accept it.

I'm reluctantly pro-abortion. I don't think rape victims should have to bear their attacker's child even though I can't square the circle by differentiating it from any other type of child. So I'm stuck with that inconsistency. One thing I'd make mandatory with all non rape people: They should all be forced to contemplate how irresponsible they might have been to be in a situation like this when alternatives were available. And contemplate the ethical implications of what they're doing. And repeat customers better brace themselves for a rant that they'd do anything to avoid in the future.

daddy

Global Warming Update.

Up here we just got word that Statewide they are now allowing us to keep on our studded snow tires for an additional 2 weeks due to remaining snow and a snowfall forecast. That is the second extension this year due to winter conditions, so instead of being removed on 15 April it is now pushed all the way to 15 May.

Have Blue

Has anyone heard about any complaints about the MFM referring to this NBA players announcement as the first player in a "major sort" coming out?

I mean the WNBA and the LPGA have got to have at least pouted about that. (not to mention ladies tennis)

Have Blue

"Sport" not sort. PIYF

Helps if you actually read the preview though.

Porchlight

Milton Friedman was willing to tolerate a minimal welfare state

But welfare states never stay minimal. As Friedman said, there is nothing so permanent as a temporary government program.

I should probably clarify - I don't think that in theory "leave me alone" always implies "let's fix social problems at taxpayer expense." I just think that's what ends up happening in practice. Thus, we may as well treat it as inevitable.

So when one says one is willing to tolerate a minimal welfare state, fine, but you are really saying you're willing to accept the eventual maximal welfare state.

Similarly, tolerating a "path to citizenship" for illegals - as minimally as it may be described - means you're ready to absorb the social and economic cost that is the result of millions more illegals entering the country in the future.

Unless and until we suddenly enter a new reality where government programs don't grow to infinity, we have to assume that they will.

matt

daddy;

the Atlantic wire has video of the 747 crash at Bagram yesterday. Looks as if the plane stalled and went vertical and just sagged in. Very sad.

Hard to believe with those big engines.

Gus

Captain, I respect you a great deal, and I respect you for being so honest and up front about your thoughts and beliefs. I will not pontificate, I'll only say that a woman getting raped is awful and horrid. The child should not die as a result.

Captain Hate

Jerry Smith of the Redskins in the late 60s and 70s was known as being a homo by every fan I knew, even though it was never officially acknowledged. He was a good tight end (no jokes, please; I'm trying to be serious) and eventually died of AIDS. Maybe he wasn't an All Pro (he was kind of small for a tight end and was more of an extra receiver; and this was at a time when guys like John Mackey were playng) but he played the game at a much higher than either of the two basketball goofs who lurched their way out of the closet.

Ignatz

I understand the MFM is currently doing an extensive canvas for any fans of the WNBA or LPGA who have complaints, but they haven't found any.
Fans, that is.

Captain Hate

I understand we disagree on that, Gus; and respect where you're coming from.

Porchlight

It became clear, and he actually admitted that liberals believe that the point of the law is to change human nature to be how they think it should be

Jane, it's pretty cool that you got him to admit it.

Again, unless we reach a new reality where human nature is fundamentally other than what it is, both modern liberalism and libertarianism seem to me to be wishful thinking.

The comments to this entry are closed.

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