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July 17, 2013

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Danube on iPad

Blacks in Florida successfully avail themselves of the Stand Your Ground law at a far higher rate than whites. But I don't expect we will hear much about that fact.

Captain Hate

How many of the dipshits on Farcebook claiming "he should've followed police instructions" have "Resist Authority" or "Well Behaved Women Seldom Make History" on their hybrid beaters?

Clarice

CH, How many heard the police dispatcher say she had no authority to and did not direct GZ t stop following TM?

Extraneus

Blacks benefit from Florida ‘Stand Your Ground’ law at disproportionate rate

Black Floridians have made about a third of the state’s total “Stand Your Ground” claims in homicide cases, a rate nearly double the black percentage of Florida’s population. The majority of those claims have been successful, a success rate that exceeds that for Florida whites.
Extraneus

Ooops.

Captain Hate

Clarice, the number of manhours it would take to fact check and correct every poorly informed opinion posted on Farcebook would be huge.

I wonder what all the self described "libertarians" think of the concentration of the power of the federal Department of Justice on an individual who was found not guilty by a jury of his peers.

Extraneus


.

NK

This is a fascinating post from TomM that highlights the genius of the Founder's Federal constitutional system, and their intent to federalize only those functions that needed federalizing (foreign military action, currency, interstate commerce) and reserved all other power to the States and their localities. Spring Creek ( take a bow Old Lurker and other high federal income taxpayers YOU subsidized Spring Creek with massive LIHTCs sold to rich folks like Theresa Heinz thereby reducing their income tax nut) uses the local resources to make it habitable-- the NYPD, stop/frisk, community watch etc. Armed SD is NOT the way to go in Spring Creek and East NY-- NOR is gun control. The same gun control laws were in effect 25 years ago when East New York was a shooting gallery, worse than Mogadishu, or even East St Louis, then 16-25yo crack dealers had continous 9mm and even Uzi gun battles on the streets and vacant lots. Now, it's ALMOST, normal USA-- the gun laws are the same, the people and the cops and the culture have changed. Armed SD on public streets is needed in other places, but not East NY or the NYC Metro area-- Castle/Car Doctrine works here. In other states and localities SYG is needed (responsible CC and SYG), that's how federalism serves this vast nation well. Holder?-- he's a fascist and a schmuck, and anti-American.

Danube on iPad

Anyone unfamiliar with the past of unethical harridan Angela Corey should check this out.

Ain't it grand that we identity conservatives have Jimmy Carter, Alan Dershowitz, Leo Terrell and Jason Whitlock on our side in this matter?

Ignatz

--Had Florida law mirrored New York and included a duty to retreat, Zimmerman might have understood that if he felt at all threatened in his own neighborhood then he had no legal right to defend himself with lethal force and needed to withdraw.--

The link Tom provides in the above sentence doesn't exactly bolster an affirmative answer to the question he asks.
In it a 17 year old black male, who very possibly looked like Barry's mythical son, was found to have no legal recourse to self defense because he ignored his 'duty to retreat'.

MarkO

My, my. Obama's entire "transformation" is to have the public retreat and not resist the government. Sheep.

Does anyone notice that Obama's foreign policy includes a "duty to retreat?"

NK

"--Had Florida law mirrored New York and included a duty to retreat, Zimmerman might have understood that if he felt at all threatened in his own neighborhood then he had no legal right to defend himself with lethal force and needed to withdraw.--"

as a participant in yesterday's JOM debate about GZ judgement and following TM, I have to say this SYG speculation is useless supposition. First, as a legal matter -- SYG was never invoked in the case, and GZ was exonerated based on ancient principles of SD, which are codified virtuallly identically in NYS CrimLaw. Put another way, if the same jury were given model NYS SD jury instructions after the trial evidence, they would have acquitted GZ in the same way. Second-- who knows? Personally, if you believe GZ was a bit of a busybody or hero complex guy (like Det Serino), IMO GZ follows TM, whether he is in a SYG or Castle State. To me the more interesting question is whether he follows if he were unarmed at that time. If he wouldn't follow if he were unarmed, doesn't that by definition mean following with his 9mm on his person was irresponsible and bad judgment? (PS: I don't mean to renew the debate, I bring this up strictly as a matter of Argumentative Greek genetic programming :).

Jane

OL,

If you are on Nantucket did you get to see the shark? Looks like it was in your front yard.

NK

Ignatz revives the important question of if GZ was unarmed, and TM killed GZ, what would have happened to TM if Corey were the prosecutor. personally, I assume she would have charged him with 2d degree murder, as AN ADULT. In that case TM would have been SOL using SD, he was the aggressor and started the fight, and withoot the 9mm on GZ's person, TM would never had any reasonable fear. He would have been convicted IMO and spent the rest of his life in Fla penetentiary.

rse

Not resist the Government, Mark. Oh my, you have no idea.

http://www.invisibleserfscollar.com/using-education-to-make-giving-more-power-to-those-who-govern-us-the-common-vision/

Anybody still think bo did not have this is mind when he gave that graduation speech at Ohio State?

On the community mentioned in Tom's post, there is something now called TOD, Transportation Organized Development, that is part of the Regional Equity push. Connected to the Green Energy/ Sustainability emphasis it has the coordination of HUD, the EPA, Labor, and Transportation. It's why Charlotte's current mayor made a prime new Secretary for the broader vision.

All this not only enables a governments at all levels directed economy but it is also a Cronyism dream.

And, heh, we are all just the Governed now. No wonder Valerie showed up Ready to Rule.

Annoying Old Guy
I wonder what all the self described "libertarians" think of the concentration of the power of the federal Department of Justice on an individual who was found not guilty by a jury of his peers.

As a "self described libertarian", what I think about this is DOOM. Also, Two Americas - the Aristocracy of Pull and the serfs.

Ignatz

--To me the more interesting question is whether he follows if he were unarmed at that time. If he wouldn't follow if he were unarmed, doesn't that by definition mean following with his 9mm on his person was irresponsible and bad judgment?--

There's the issue in a nutshell.
Are we a society in which the streets are owned and ruled by criminals and the citizens cower in their homes until the police arrive after someone else has been murdered for having the temerity to cross the criminals' street or are we a society of self reliance and personal responsibility in which criminals cower in fear of an armed citizenry?

One of the things which always stuck with me was John Wayne's contention that High Noon was not only not a great western but that it was an anti-western in that it ahistorically portrayed the citizens of a western town, most of whom after all had risked their lives just to get to it and build it and were quite familiar with firearms, would be terrorized into cowering in their homes by three or four bandits.
'Duty to retreat' and 'don't go out armed' posit that the chickens portrayed in High Noon is who we should aspire to be or already have become.

MarkO

Iggy,

I think the point was also clearly made in "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance."

Danube on iPad

"That's my steak, Valance."

More on the vile banshee Corey.

NK

Ig@11:19-- can't say agree with you. I admit I don't know if Hollywood's portrayal of the tyranny by the handful of bandits with guns is accurate (High Noon, Man who shot Liberty Valance, Shane, Magnificent 7 etc) is historically accurate, but looking at today's world aren't there border towns/ranches in texas and Arizona which are virtual hostages to Mexican drug gangs, and those locales have high gun ownership. So the man with the gun seeems to be cowing the locals there. I think the issue of violence by the 'man with the gun' and the response by civilized society is very localized. Gun ownership advocates are right to fight against Holderistic Top/Down gun control, but I think they shouldn't push for nationwide solutions either. Localities should use local laws that work for them-- respecting 2nd Amendment rights of course.

Extraneus

Would it be "irresponsible and bad judgment" for a woman to carry a gun in an unlit parking lot in a dangerous neighborhood, or worse judgment not to?

Annoying Old Guy

NK;

I think most of that cowering is induced by the government, not the drug lords. See your own arguments about what that government should do to a citizen like Zimmerman who makes a stand.

NK

'Would it be "irresponsible and bad judgment" for a woman to carry a gun in an unlit parking lot in a dangerous neighborhood,'-- My Answer-- so long as she is lawfully CC, the handgun is appropriate SD from a an attacker, against whom she has no other reasonable defense;

Would it be REsponsible and GOOD judgment, for that same woman in that same parking lot to see a suspicious hooded figure looking in parked cars, to call 911, and then before Police arrive, follow the suspicious hooded man down a dark alleyway after he leaves the lot? (BTW-- according to henry, the NRA CC instructors teach that's not good judgment for CC permit holders.)

Captain Hate

As a "self described libertarian", what I think about this is DOOM. Also, Two Americas - the Aristocracy of Pull and the serfs.

Well you're right about that AOG. And I was aiming mainly at the Ronulan type of "libertarians" (hence the quotes) who are in it for pot and buttseks.

Janet  --- -... .- -- .- ... ..- -.-. -.- ...

We can be like the Brits & let the thugs chop our heads off. We'll be dead, but we won't be racists!

NK

CaptH-- IMO the 'libertarianism' you describe is fine-- in moderation.

AOG-- don't know about all that, the Arizona/Tex ranchers I've seen quoted are demandng greater government involvement through the fence, stronger border security, even mobilizing the state National Guard. They are outgunned by the Mexican gangstas, and are in physical fear for their families.

henry

NK, was it good judgement for an unarmed teenager in PA to follow a kidnapper's car on his bicycle? No single bright line test applies.

Ignatz

The law is no substitute for an ethos, NK.

In Shane and Liberty Valance the citizens availed themselves of a self help which we now prosecute.
It was one thing to accept that bargain when the prosecutors kept the streets safe, and even then it was societal pressure more than law enforcement that kept the peace.
Now through the welfare state and the transformation of society we have reintroduced the lawless frontier to much of the country but have kept in place the idea that guns are for home defense only and even then you better dot your I's and cross your T's if you don't want to end up in the cell next to the drug lord you were shooting at.

In the Magnificent Seven the peons were unarmed and were doing exactly what we are instructed to do by modern society; eat it and like it.

James D.

I think that part of the issue with "cowering", etc. is fear of being outgunned, and concern for one's family, etc.

But I think another part of it is that, even among people who are willing to take responsibility and defend themselves (especially among them, I'd say), they don't WANT to shoot anyone. They don't want to take a life. They don't want to become killers. What decent person would?

If they have to, they'll do it, but it's a last resort and something to avoid at all costs. And something that will haunt them probably forever, even if they had no other choice, and were fully justified, and person they killed completely deserved what they got.

I imagine that many/most legal gun owners fit that. I think GZ certainly does, based on everything we've seen and heard.

Some Guy

Ignatz revives the important question of if GZ was unarmed, and TM killed GZ, what would have happened to TM if Corey were the prosecutor. personally, I assume she would have charged him with 2d degree murder, as AN ADULT.

Instead of changing two facts to create the hypothetical, let’s just change one – TM kills GZ. Which is quite likely if either he got in a clean sucker-punch in the right location, and/or he pounded his head into concrete in a specific manner. 5-15 secs into it, and GZ is dead.

Corey would without question charge him as an adult for 1st degree murder not 2nd.

See? In that case, the gun is moot. It’s an inanimate object that never left its holster.

Ignatz

--They are outgunned by the Mexican gangstas, and are in physical fear for their families.-

Might that have something to do with gun laws which restrict what weapons law abiding citizens may own but not criminals?
That's especially ironic after Fast and Furious.

Ignatz

One other point regarding duty to retreat.
Why do we only look at how it incentivizes the law abiding's behavior?
Isn't it likely to embolden criminals and aggressors who now know their potential victims are afforded one less protection from the law?
More running = more crime.

DublinDave

Just had coffee with my old pal Grace Wyler and she told me there was a contentious meeting at 'TIME' this morning.....long story shot,Trayvon Martin's going to be TIME person of the year.

The pro-snowden camp aren't happy.

NK

JOM is the best-- in the last few minutes Ig and JamesD raise critical philosphical and human questions. JamesD humanizes the whole SD issue, the decent/law abiding never want to hurt anyone, violence especially deadly force is an absolute last resort. They have that right and they are, and must be, responsible about. That's the right 'ethos' that Ig references. How should that ethos be legally applied in a place like the texas/arizona ranches, where the decent and law abiding are outgunned. f we are not willing to send the firepower they need ion the form of national Guard or even military, should we use federalism to issue them Federal permits to own MADeuces to defend themselves? i'm quite serious about that.

NK

DD-- thanks for the update from LibLand. If Time did that, don't they risk their two subscribers bickering and losing half their subscription base? T'is a quandry.

Rob Crawford
Might that have something to do with gun laws which restrict what weapons law abiding citizens may own but not criminals?

Now, now. The Mexican Constitution permits the people to own weapons.

And there's even a government-run store, in Mexico City, that will sell them if all the paperwork is in order.

Now... whether the local "law enforcement" will let them keep it...

Rob Crawford

Iggy -- the current ruling class does not care one whit for the fate of the law-abiding, except to turn them into criminals ASAP.

hit and run

Stoopid thai pad.

boris

"If he wouldn't follow if he were unarmed, doesn't that by definition mean following with his 9mm on his person was irresponsible and bad judgment?"

Carrying a firearm is in some sense like wearing a seatbelt ... so your statement above is like claiming seatbelts encourage high risk driving.

For one thing GZ had no intention of standing his ground that I can see. Getting out of his vehicle to see where a fleeing suspect might have gone is not an obviously high risk action with clearly foreseeable consequences.

When he had lost Trayvon and said "okay" to the operator, he could have returned to his vehicle and had exactly the same level of security as if he never left it.

In this case getting out was not proximate to any consequence. GZ had not followed the suspicious teen down an alley. He was simply walking about for several minutes in the vicinity of his truck waiting for the police to arrive and describe the person who had run away.

Bad judgment? Nope. Just not psychic.

Porchlight

One of the things which always stuck with me was John Wayne's contention that High Noon was not only not a great western but that it was an anti-western in that it ahistorically portrayed the citizens of a western town, most of whom after all had risked their lives just to get to it and build it and were quite familiar with firearms, would be terrorized into cowering in their homes by three or four bandits.

That is interesting - I never thought of that. Almost certainly every man in that town owned a firearm or had access to one. Their behavior is typical of us but not typical of the Western frontier (with allowances for the fact that it's a Hollywood movie to begin with).

High Noon is tremendous but it only depresses me for the lack of such men today, and the ease with which they are beaten down by the mob's desire for "security" when they do appear. In future, the Gary Coopers of the world will just stay in their truck. Like they now do in the UK.

Ignatz

--should we use federalism to issue them Federal permits to own MADeuces to defend themselves?--

The browning M2 and it's variants are widely used, mobile, often hand carried, albeit normally two man, firearms used by the Armed services.

IMO it's legal ownership is guaranteed by the 2nd amendment and should have no Federal or state proscription of its ownership to begin with.
I'm quite serious about that. :)

Captain Hate

I'm calling bullshit on everything in dumbassdave's post. First, he has no friends; certainly none that are gainfully employed. Second, there's no way that a parakeet liner like Time would choose their Man of the Year in mid July when their biggest concern is how to make the next payroll.

Extraneus

Would it be REsponsible and GOOD judgment, for that same woman in that same parking lot to see a suspicious hooded figure looking in parked cars, to call 911, and then before Police arrive, follow the suspicious hooded man down a dark alleyway after he leaves the lot?

You don't approve of neighborhood watchmen, either?

NK

Ig@12:29 -- I KNOW you're serious about that. But as a matter of current law, that type of armament is NOT banned by FEDERAL law, ownership requires Federal licensing, and no state prohibition-- correct?

boyle

If I find myself facing charges I want this DA. The incompetence of letting Zimmerman testify (on tape) without the possibility of a cross is beyond the pale. I would feel much safer committing a crime in Sanford.

michaelt

I don't believe DD either, but be wary if Time announces that they've created a new Youth of the Year award.

Skoot

"...browning M2 and it's variants..."

The latest variant is fully radio controlled, and mounted on a Terminator style tracked vehicle. I took a picture of my kids in front of it the other day :)

Enlightened

How can Time name TM MAN of the year when he was only a CHILD?

Pretzel logic by the thumb-sucking, blankie holders.

NK

Skoot@12:46-- I believe Ig has that variant, although the M2 is inert per Calif law, at least I assume it's inert, wouldn't want to test the premise though :) :)

poppa india

Re: the armed citizen in the border area. A year of two ago, a rancher in the Southwest caught several illegals coming across the border on to his ranch. He held them at gunpoint while waiting for the authorities to arrive, not knowing if they were dangerous or not. For his troubles he was rewarded with a lawsuit where he was successfully sued for some kind of unlawful imprisonment by the illegals, with the support of the government. This is the kind of government action that keeps citizens inside, eyes closed, fingers in ears.

NK

poppaI-- too true.

jimmyk

I'm pretty sure Time has never named someone who was not alive during that year, but they may well be at the point of jumping the shark. Still, duda's full of crap for all the reasons CH mentioned and many more.

Ignatz

--Ig@12:29 -- I KNOW you're serious about that. But as a matter of current law, that type of armament is NOT banned by FEDERAL law, ownership requires Federal licensing, and no state prohibition-- correct?--

IMO it is effectively banned.
A fully automatic weapon manufactured after 1986 (thanks RR) cannot be purchased, period.
Consequently an NFA qualified M2 approaches $100,000.

Any state prohibition and the 1986 ban for that matter are unconstitutional IMO.

NK

Thanks Ig-- I'm not familiar with the 1986 sunset law.

Ignatz

--Skoot@12:46-- I believe Ig has that variant, although the M2 is inert per Calif law, at least I assume it's inert, wouldn't want to test the premise though :)--

That raises a very interesting question I have pondered. California law bans the importation of any 50 BMG rifle presumably even by me an FFL.

If I, a Federally licensed gun dealer choose to buy and import a 50 BMG firearm for sale to out of state legal buyers by what power does the state of CA regulate something which as far as I can see is entirely interstate commerce?

Account Deleted

Why do I sense an implication of rising violent crime rates in these comments when reality shows steadily falling rates, even in Blue Hell Plantations? NYC really is a reasonable example of Plantation predator control and I appreciate NK's argument regarding local conditions dictating rules of engagement. Are there any other Democrat Plantations which exercise predator control as well as NYC does? Is easy accessibility to benefits sufficient to fulfill most wants, rather than covering basic needs, a causative factor in the success? NYC has access to tax plunder unavailable to any other Democrat Plantation, how does a Plantation such as Detroit or East St. Louis or Miami or Los Angeles or Milwaukee or Chicago or acquire the danegeld necessary for predator control, if benefit sufficiency regarding wants is causative?

NK

Ig...hmm.... conflict of laws, federal preemption and Erie Doctrine issues. Do you need a good lawyer?

MarkO

"reality shows steadily falling rates"

I feel safer. I'm giving my guns to science.
No more locks.

You hold the key to love and fear
all in your trembling hand
Just one key unlocks them both
Its there at your command

Ignatz

Crime rates have indeed fallen but remain at levels quite unacceptable in earlier times.

Buford Gooch

DoT,
I lurk but don't comment on here much, but "Vile Banshee" deserves kudos.

JeffC

seems to me that we need MORE SYG laws ... more dead muggers will reduce overall crime ...

Sue

Listening to talk radio this morning, self described blacks were all over the place. Some finding Zimmerman acted stupidly but in self defense. Others providing their version of what might have happened, just as the prosecution did. I think this dies its own natural death in another day or two.

MarkO

I can recall when "Vile Banshee" was a term of affection.

Ignatz

--Do you need a good lawyer?--

If I had the time I'd be interested in a test case along with the recent CA ban on unloaded open carry, which has effectively banned any bearing of long arms in the state since they cannot be covered by a concealed weapons permit.
It has also made the bearing of handguns entirely at the whim of the state.

NK

RickB-- I was struck by a similar observation. Gun Grabbers, and now SD defense supporters talk as if we are seeing dramatic rises in shootings and carjack/home invasion mayhem, when the FBI and State police Stats show the opposite is the case. Strange.

As to policing Blue Hells: proper urban police strategies have been employed by the NYTA cops (since merged into the NYPD) and the NYPD since 1992 or so-- 20 years. NYPD is smaller now than it was in 1992-- significantly smaller, but orders of magnitude smarter and better managed, the cops actually work and they work proactively-- CrimeStat and Stop/frisk are the 2 most important reasons. Of course the racialists and professional Leftists in NYC HATE both. So urban policing is not so much a matter of money, it's political will. Many reddish/purpulish and some Blue Cities have implemented the NYPD systems, Charlotte, LA and others. Others haven't-- I'm looking at you ChiTown. Of course a Federal judge and the next Mayor will ruin the NYC progress and cripple the things that work and adopt some kind of 'community outreach' and 'independent review board' to attack on the cops.

centralcal

Thread hopping and cross posting.

Love is in the air.....(barf!)

Al Sharpton is only 58? Not buying it.

Skoot

On subject, It appears Obama's 2nd term has failed so miserably to strip citizens of their guns that he has been reduced to attacking the state laws the free people of the United States have enacted to codify their God given right to defend themselves. Furthermore, I was taught that not only do I have the right to defend myself, I have a duty to God to defend the life he gave me. Holder can suck on that for a while.

I think the Obama legacy will be in shambles in 2014 as Obamacare topples like the Sadam statue the Marines pulled down in Firdos Square. Good times ahead.

boris

I recall discussions some years ago about how unfair it was that more people were going to prison even though the crime rate was falling. Strange.

Jane

"I think this dies its own natural death in another day or two."

i hope you are right, but I keep hearing about more and more incidents of black beating up whites yelling "Trayvon" and Holder' increased dedication to get that Zimmerman at any cost.

boris

I recall some years ago Florida car rental companies stopped putting company ID tags on their cars because they were being targeted by jackers and tourists were being murdered. Started happening after lax CCW laws were enacted. Strange.

boatbuilder

NK (and others who insist that Zimmerman "acted stupidly" by "creating a situation"): Is there any evidence--anywhere--of a neighborhood watch member or similarly situated person, armed or unarmed, getting jumped and beaten because he or she sought to observe where a potential miscreant had fled to? If not, just how does one make the assumption that Zimmerman was foolish in doing so?

Account Deleted

NK,

It might be better policing but that would have to be in conjunction with predator control through three strikes plus the effectiveness of progressive gosnels in pursuing the black genocide project. I suspect the danegeld benefit levels play a part as well.

Jane

Hannity had this live show on last night with people talking about the trial and verdict. Shamoo (unfortunate name ) Green went off on this rant about how there are so many more blacks in jail than whites and how unjust that is and Yadi Yadi Yadi it must be cured.

Jason Reilly took her to task. "Do you think those men are innocent Shamoo? WE have a black president and the top law enforcement guy are black, do you think they are racist?" It was actually a fascinating exchange.

boris

Isn't NY where the highly unconstitutional "Profile, Stop, and Frisk" is applied with storm trooper abandon?

centralcal

OMG - laughing hysterically! Love the "Shamoo" - it so fits her.

But, she spells it Jehmu (Greene).

boris

Well it's better than Shamwow.

NK

RickB-- CrimeStat and Stop/Frisk absolutely needs pre-trial detention and 'Truth in Sentencing' laws plus 'Three Strikes" for the recidivist criminals. No question. NYC would have been even better off with no parole sentences, other jurisdctions adopted that and those laws have contributed to the national reduction in violent crime. For 25 years (20 years in NYC.NYS) we have been warehousing the recidivists in prison, where they belong. They can only harm each other in the State Pen.

Ignatz

Wonder if she spells double bacon cheeseburger with chilli fries u-n-d-r-e-s-s-e-d g-r-e-e-n s-a-l-a-d..

Janet  --- -... .- -- .- ... ..- -.-. -.- ...

Another great Daniel Greenfield post - http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/americas-obsession-with-the-racist-within/

It's really good.

Ignatz

May have already been linked, but Van Jones thinks MLK is equivalent to a street fightin man little tiny boy.

BTW just when did it become OK for Dems to start calling young black men "boys" again?

NK

Ig... come now, 'consistency is the Hobgobblin of small minds'.

Rob Crawford
BTW just when did it become OK for Dems to start calling young black men "boys" again?

Heh.

Neo

Didn't "pre-emptive surrender" make 9/11 possible ?

Nobody in a plane believes in "pre-emptive surrender" any more.

JIB

DoT,

I am glad you have been posting articles about Corey. I have been posting about here known prosecutorial behavior before during the whole Zimerman/Martin kerfuffle. The only way to get her is by primary-ing her.

Maybe Harry Shorstein will make a comeback. He should have never been replaced by Corey who he had fired the year before she ran against him for SA.

Some Guy

Van Jones thinks MLK is equivalent to a street fightin man little tiny boy.


I heard that he thinks the 911 call was an inside job…

Dave (in MA)
Love is in the air.....(barf!)
I guess you could call that an upgrade.
NK

Dave-- who's the dude in drag with Sharpton in that photo? (the big homely dude)

centralcal

Gack! He used to date (or was married to) a transvestite??

Clarice

The majority of states have SYG rules--that is the person under threat has no duty t retreat.http://www.volokh.com/2013/07/17/political-ignorance-in-congress/

Jane

Hey Dot, what year did you get out of HLS? Let me ask it a better way: Would you know someone who graduated in 1971?

Dave (in MA)

NK, that was his ex-wife. She usually looks OK as I recall, but that one reminds me of Dennis Rodman.

pagar

IMO, the Democrats are 100% committed to surrendering to any group that is willing to work toward the defeat of the US. John Kerry spent years working toward our surrender to the North Vietnamese military, IMO.

Danube on iPad

1976, Jane.

Gus

Pagar, the entire Zimmerman deal is about WHIPPPING up the Base. Giving the base something to hate.
Pagar the entire Fluke deal is about WHIPPPPING UP THE Base. Giving the base someone to hate.
Pagar, the entire FAST and FURIOUS deal is about whipping up the base and giving the base someone to hate.
Pagar the entire COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION deal is about WHIPPPING up the base, and giving the base someone to hate.


See a pattern yet????

Threadkiller

How does Dennis Rodman get into so many photos, Dave?

Gus

I'm waiting for Big Sis Butch to start giving me my 9mm rations.

Do you think I'll have to wait long?

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