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July 13, 2013

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Clarice

I find Kaka's contributions always fascinating. Imagine a person capable of reading and writing without mastering thinking.

boris

"Why would he do that?"

Because Zimmerman was still conscious and armed with a weapon. Trayvon realizes he is now in danger. Does he immediately pull back and run or surrender? Apparently not.

"Why would he say that?"

So one suspects Trayvon was in an aggressive state of mind, willing to risk going for the weapon and presumably use it. If he says anything I'd expect it to be consistent with that aggressive mental state. "You're going to die" sounds about right to me.

jimmyk

As Moynihan once said, Kaka is "entitled to her own opinion, but not her own facts." There's no evidence that GZ followed TM after the dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that." The unrefuted story is that he was simply headed back to his truck to wait for the police when TM sucker-punched him and knocked him down and started beating the crap out of him. And now the left wants to make this thug into a folk hero. Terrific.

DrJ

jimmyk,

All I have seen from the left are the same dreadful talking points in the GZ matter. Sure there were a few libs on LI, and Jeralyn is liberal but a defense attorney first.

Facts don't matter. Court transcripts don't matter. On sfgate they are still arguing about stand your ground laws, as if this had anything to do with the case.

I suggest we don't wrestle with these pigs.

Barbara

Trayvon had lost GZ at that point and circled back to confront GZ, knock him down, bang his head against the sidewalk, then when he realized GZ was armed an still conscious (and now dangerous), he decided to kill GZ.

"Trayvon had lost GZ at that point..."

According to Zimmerman's own words to the operator, Trayvon was running away.

"...and circled back to confront GZ..."

When did that happen? Before or after GZ began following him? And more importantly, why would the fleeing Martin "double back" and "hide in the bushes" to confront the "creepy ass cracker" that he was trying to get away from?

fdcol63

It's pointless to debate stupid people, and even more futile to debate racist, biased liberal morons.

boris

"When did that happen?"

Four minutes after Trayvon lost GZ.

'why would the fleeing Martin "double back" ...'

We know he did because that's where the ground and pound happened. Trayvon ran away, got away, then four minutes later he's back. You tell me.

Clarice

Deciding to ignore the facts and sticking to the folktale of dashing young Trayvon and the crack ass creep is something one does in certain circles to establish one's higher moral state and mastery of nuanced thinking/ besides it's easier than reading the courtpapers or the law/

boris

They want to wrap themselves in the fading glow of the 60's civil rights movement. Quixotic really.

Porchlight

'why would the fleeing Martin "double back" ...'

Because he wanted to beat the shit out of the creepy ass cracker that had the temerity to ask him what he was doing hanging out next to someone else's house in the dark in the rain. Which he proceeded to do. Which got him shot and killed.

boris

GZ is their windmill.

narciso

One would think of a satire of these events, ala Tartuffe, but one would run across the Phillip Roth problem.

jimmyk

why would the fleeing Martin "double back" and "hide in the bushes" to confront the "creepy ass cracker" that he was trying to get away from?

Why? Such charming naivete. Let's introduce Barbara to the urban game of "knockout."

http://federaleagent86.blogspot.com/2011/04/mike-vanderboeghs-morally-superior.html

Kathy Kattenburg

"Zimmerman did not "decide to kill" Trayvon."

I did not say Zimmerman decided to kill Trayvon. I'm saying he started the series of events that led to Trayvon being shot. Trayvon didn't start them. Zimmerman did.

As for that "Now you're going to die" line, I think Zimmerman made that up, along with those other lines like "Well, you've got a problem now" that sound like they come straight out of a John Wayne movie.

"Who created that situation?

GZ by getting out of his truck ? ... or Trayvon knocking GZ on the ground and trying to "knock him out" ?"

GZ getting out of his truck, clearly. TM knocking GZ on the ground, did not create the situation. It escalated it, obviously, but TM apparently decided to resist being followed and questioned, which he had a right to do.

"The English language allows that to be called "following" but it's not the same thing as hot pursuit."

I did not call it "hot pursuit." I called it unnecessary and unwise, and everything that happened after that could have been avoided had Zimmerman not done that.

Barbara

About those bushes that Martin was hiding in just before he leaped out to hit George Zimmerman in the face...

Where were those bushes in the re-enactment video shown by the defense during closing argument? According to that video, Martin was walking along the sidewalk and approached the stationary Zimmerman at the T intersection. After a few second of apparently some conversation, the right-handed Martin hauled off and punched Zimmerman in the face with his left hand/fist.

No bushes, no Martin moving away from concealment to accost Zimmerman. Why?

boris

"GZ getting out of his truck, clearly."

That did not create a 1 lives 1 dies situation. Play games with the word "situation" if you like because word games is all your side has.

Porchlight

GZ getting out of his truck, clearly. TM knocking GZ on the ground, did not create the situation. It escalated it, obviously, but TM apparently decided to resist being followed and questioned, which he had a right to do.

He had a right to commit felony assault in response to a person following him on private property and asking him a question?

Porchlight

I called it unnecessary and unwise, and everything that happened after that could have been avoided had Zimmerman not done that.

So? The first person - and the last person - to do something illegal was Trayvon Martin. He made that choice. It turned out to be a poor one.

Cecil Turner

He had a right to commit felony assault in response to a person following him on private property and asking him a question?

Obviously not. And note it doesn't really matter whether the conversation happened the way GZ told it or the way "Dee Dee" told it . . . the first violation of law--and the obvious "starting point" of the fight--was when Trayvon jabbed GZ in the nose. An intellectually honest person might argue GZ overreacted, but the contention that he "started it" is bunkum.

jimmyk

No bushes, no Martin moving away from concealment to accost Zimmerman. Why?

So it's ok to sucker-punch someone and break his nose, knocking him down, and then beat his head against the pavement, so long as you don't jump out from behind some bushes?

Jeff Dobbs

Don't miss the often underappreciated Felony Getting Out of Your Truck.

It's stronger than any Stand Your Ground or Self Defense laws.

Once someone commits a Felony Getting Out of Your Truck, he becomes open game for assault.

It must be true, I've seen it on the internet. They can't put anything on the internet that isn't true. Here comes my date. He's a French model.

Danube on iPad

"Trayvon did not 'decide to kill' Zimmerman. He decided to confront a strange man who was following him."

Notice the telltale resort to euphemism. Punching a stranger in the dark--breaking his nose--and then jumping on him to continue the unlawful assault is simply "confronting."

Those who profess outrage at the verdict are uniformly unwilling to acknowledge that this young man was an aspirant to a thug culture, enamored of fistfighting and bragging of his prowess as a fighter. He sucker-punched a stranger in pitch blackness, and thugs everywhere know that at that point it's Katie bar the door. Don't pretend otherwise.

Ignatz

Imagine being on a jury with Kathy Kattenberg and trying to introduce her to the fact based world.

Imagine sitting in Zimmerman's place wondering if a Kathy Kattenberg was pondering your fate with apparently no connection to reality.

Ignatz

-- the right-handed Martin hauled off and punched Zimmerman in the face with his left hand/fist.-

Are you contending that didn't happen or that it did?
I'm left handed. When I fought competitively guess which hand I very often hit my opponent with first.

fdcol63

Surprise! Some men hold their penises with their non-dominant hand while urinating and masturbating, too.

Imagine their shock.

narciso

One is reminded about Thomas Jefferson's very arch comment about newspapers. What do you do when they continue to print the direct opposite of the truth, what rse calls 'mind arson' and it's uniform from Carlos Slim's trained chimps to Rupert's minions, from Anchorage to Bangor to Key West and all points in between,

bgates

Don't miss the often underappreciated Felony Getting Out of Your Truck.

It's usually a misdemeanor down here, but in this case it's felony exiting a vehicle with intent to walk in the same direction as a black guy.

Barbara

Because he wanted to beat the shit out of the creepy ass cracker that had the temerity to ask him what he was doing hanging out next to someone else's house in the dark in the rain.

Porch,

Zimmerman said that when he was accosted by Martin, Martin asked him, "Do you have a problem?" and he backed away and replied, "No. I don't have a problem." He didn't ask Martin what he was doing in the neighborhood next to someone house. He said that Martin told him that he had a problem now, and then attacked him.

One thing that struck me was the lack of any hurry in Martin's actions as shown in the 7/11 store video. (Perhaps this was due to the traces of THC in his blood system.) He put his purchases on the counter, took his time to pay for them and then sauntered out of the store like he had nowhere else to go. This aimless behavior, if you will, is what seemed to attract Zimmerman's attention in the first place, and made him suspicious of Martin.

Martin was walking slowly in the rain and talking on his cell phone. He saw Zimmerman following him and thought he was creepy. He ran away from Zimmerman. We know he ran away because Zimmerman told this to the operator.

narciso

How does the saying go, 'people are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts'

Jeff Dobbs

bgates:
but in this case it's felony exiting a vehicle with intent to walk in the same direction as a black guy.

I think it gets elevated to an aggravated felony because it was a black child.

Cecil Turner

We know he ran away because Zimmerman told this to the operator.

Fine. Now continue. We also know Trayvon must've turned around, or he'd have arrived at home at least a minute before the confrontation happened.

(BTW, the contention that the pudgy Zimmerman overhauled Trayvon whilst the latter was running away is a bit ridiculous on its face, right?)

jimmyk

We know he ran away because Zimmerman told this to the operator.

By that same standard, we know that Zimmerman ceased following Trayvon when the dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman said "Okay" and agreed to meet the police back at his car.

How would you explain their subsequent encounter on the way back to the car, farther away from Trayvon's father's house than when Zimmerman last saw him? It's rather hard to think of an explanation other than Trayvon's "doubling back" and confronting Zimmerman.

DrJ

You all have more time and patience than I do. Then again I'm still preparing a presentation for a conference where I'm a speaker named on all the advertising, so perhaps I'm distracted.

Ignatz

Despite John Adams' trenchant quote, seems to me that people who don't like facts are a lot more stubborn than the facts themslves.

Barbara

How does the saying go, 'people are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts'

That's right, Narciso. There is also a saying that says, "What you see depends on where you stand."

I'm only challenging Zimmerman's account(s) of the events. IMO, the prosecution put on a weak and ill-argued case. The SPD did a terrible job of handling the case from start to finish. If that wasn't enough, the coroner did a slip-shod autopsy and imploded on the stand. Given the case that they were presented with, the jury reached the correct conclusion.

I'm certainly not a liberal, and my initial sympathies in this case were with George Zimmerman. I do, however, see problems with his statements about that night and the assumptions that were reached because of those statements.

Ignatz,

I'm not a boxer, so I can't comment about the tactics used in that sport. I am left-handed, however, and my first inclination would be to use my left hand. Martin was right-handed.

jimmyk

I do, however, see problems with his statements about that night

You have not identified a single problem with his statements, other than the circular one that you have problem with them, or that you can't fathom why Martin would attack Zimmerman (therefore he didn't? But somehow it's more fathomable that Zimmerman shot Martin for no justifiable reason?). Though this is the first I've heard that Zimmerman's nose was broken by a left-handed fist (how was that proved?), practiced fighters (which we know TM was) know how to hit with both hands.

And what is this supposed to show anyway? That there was some third puncher from the grassy knoll? I don't think anyone seriously doubts that whatever else happened that night, TM punched GZ in the face and broke his nose.

Danube on iPad

What evidence was adduced at trial concerning which fist Martin used to break Zimmerman's nose? I'm not aware of any at all.

And what does it matter? It seems those who reject the verdict are willing to cling to any imbecility to avoid facing the fact that it was fair and just.

Landru

"Martin was walking slowly in the rain and talking on his cell phone. He saw Zimmerman following him and thought he was creepy. He ran away from Zimmerman. We know he ran away because Zimmerman told this to the operator."

Posted by: Barbara

That's right, Babs, Zimmerman said he ran. He then walked briskly after him for about 10 seconds towards the T, had the exchange with the dispatch about following him (who heard the sounds of brisk movement) and said 'ok'. Oh, and what happened next? Zimmerman continued talking with dispatch, with no sounds of movement audible on the phone, for another 90 seconds. The ONLY way he could have followed Martin, after giving him a head start, is if Martin stopped runnning, stood there waiting for Zimmerman to walk around the corner, and then continued walking slowly ahead of Zimmerman while Zimmerman walked slowly behind him talking with the dispatcher. FOR 90 FULL SECONDS. Then, after hanging up after 90 seconds, this following would have had to have turned back around somehow and headed slowly back for another 90 seconds to end up back near Zimmerman's truck again.

Do you know why the prosecution never even tried to put forth a plausible scenario of where, for how long, and at what speed this 4 minute follow was supposed to have occured? Because there isn't one! If they had tried, the jury would have just said "that makes no sense at all". Instead, they just insinuated it over and over, with no explanation of how or where. You apparently didn't pick up on that little nuance and ust swallowed it.

OK, that's it. I can't take these people anymore. It's pointless trying to apply reason and logic to them.

Oh, I forgot. There are no bushes! Liar!Guilty!

Enlightened

I think the only true response to these repulsive liying, race baiting imbeciles is to recite the names, ages and date of murder of black teenagers by black shooters. They deserve as much attention as Trayvon Martin.

Stephanie

Meh. They blame Bush(es).

Second verse same as the first!

DublinDave

I think it's time we have a conversation about race in this country.

DublinDave

"Despite John Adams' trenchant quote, seems to me that people who don't...."

ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz-oh sorry-what was that-oh yeah John Adams trenchant quote yes yes,that's very interesting,yes yes yes, John Adams yes yes,very interesting.

Clarice

ttp://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/07/12/155918/more-evidence-released-in-trayvon.html#.UeOeC2Li5ay


Now we learn the FBI found no evidence GZ was a racist.

fdcol63

This is a great example of liberal and black logic on this issue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbK0Om8HklY&feature=player_embedded

Now imagine this Kathy Kattenburg on the jury.

Imagine Kathy Kattenberg as innocent as Zimmerman, yet prosecuted as Zimmerman.
==========

boris

Kathy and Dana are probably on the same side more often than not and both apparently believe conservatives rely on a discredited worldview, but Dana drank too much electric koolaid.

scott

Trayvon wasn't scared when, upon seeing Zimmerman, he approached the car and walked around it...

Trayvon wasn't scared when he approached Zimmerman at the T...

Musta been scared in between, when he hung up from the loquaious DeeDee to call 911

Nuff Said

The bottom line is that Trayvon was 100% at fault for his own deserved death at the hands of the innocent and sweet, pillsbury dough-boy.

boris

Fault isn't the issue.

When Trayvon discovered Zimmerman was armed and conscious his choices at that moment were hasty retreat, surrender or go for the gun.

By going for the gun he put both of them in a 1 lives 1 dies position. Saying it was Zimmerman who deserved to survive at that moment is simple human decency.

Annoying Old Guy

Be careful using facts with Ms. Kattenberg - if you're right and she's wrong, that makes you a a goddamn fucking FOOL and who wants that?

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Wilson/Plame