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August 10, 2017

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Outlandrr

1st?

henry

Does NYT do anything else? oh right... lie, fabricate, misrepresent come before virtue signaling.

Appalled

Question for the day. Is it virtue signaling to write an essay about virtue signaling that says some virtue signaling is signaling about virtues the signaler actually feels deeply about?

Tie yourself up in knots about it. Or just wait for the next Trump tweet about Republicans the President hates.

Porchlight

I noticed my lefty brother using the term recently which surprised me.

cboldt

First to say I posted some stuff on the previous thread.

henry

Appalled, easier to laugh at the fools than assume intelligence beyond your average turnip.

Porchlight

Appalled,

No need to tie myself up in knots. The answer is yes. Virtue signaling is not about the degree of genuineness of the emotion or thought that is being conveyed. It is about the degree to which one wants to be perceived as having that emotion or thought.

But I wouldn't expect you, or the failing NYT, to get it.

So go back to snarking about Trump tweets. Someday the light may begin to dawn. :)

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

From a couple of threads back OL said;

--Where Iggy decides to just be argumentative to obfuscate the point by inventing some sort of moral equivalence where one does not exist. All those things you name are felonies and if caught can send you to jail.--

I was responding to this;

--Porch in almost every other example we can think of where an abuse might occur, the government agent doing the abusing cannot be financially enriched by that act of abuse.--

You didn't make any distinction between how often something is prosecuted. You said no other abuse leads to personal profit, which I thought was an odd point that seemed to ignore all the other ways government employees abuse the system and profit off of it. I gave examples that did.

--Good thing SCOTUS is never wrong about such things, especially when those things have been going on for a long time. Too bad the Founders never figured out how we might correct mistakes we might have baked into our affairs.--

Some comments had sounded as though SCOTUS had never ruled on civil forfeiture cases. I was just pointing out they have, not implying papal infallibility on SCOTUS.

What the hell is with all the snotty snark lately?

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

--Or just wait for the next Trump tweet about Republicans the President hates.--

When he stops hating the Republicans every person of good moral fiber rightfully does, I'll speak up.

Miss Marple the Deplorable

Appalled,

Mitch McConnell is being treated fairly gently by President Trump, if you ask me. I would have loosed the full fire and fury on him from the moment that vote on healthcare failed.

President Trump held fire until McConnell's arrogant and condescending comment at the Rotary Club in Kentucky. McConnell deserves all the scorn he receives.

Miss Marple the Deplorable

Phone call from a friend this morning regarding that 1999 clip with Donald Trump and Tim Russert.

She asks, "Why is it that in 1999, when he was a businessman, everyone wanted his opinion on things like North Korea, but now that he's President, he's suddenly a buffoon?"

Good question, and one that should be pointedly asked. One thing I kow is that a lot of those GOP Senators had NO trouble asking him for money and endorsements.

Much like Mitt Romney, who was thrilled to have his endorsement and then denigrated him when he was a candidate.

At least trump isn't a backstabber, which it seems to me most of them are.

henry

Interesting link from Sharyl Attkisson on how lobbyists and business control news.

https://twitter.com/SharylAttkisson/status/895482567851298819

Jack is Back!

Even if McConnell had 60 Republican votes in the majority, he would still have Flake, McRino, Collins, Murkowski,Graham, Corker, Alexander and Heller. Which brings it back to 52.

That little 2nd grade math exercise is why you need to change the f@$king filibuster and reconciliation rules. You're either with us or agin us, as Festus would say.

cboldt

Quality of news is easy to explain. The purveyors are lazy, incompetent, biased, and vain.

It's worth it. The pay is great, the work is easy, and they have plenty of friends in the same circle.

Miss Marple the Deplorable

Ha, Rick Leventhal is reporting that McConnell got a 10-minute phone call from the President yesterday. He was told the President didn't appreciate the criticism and that he still wanted Obamacare repealed and replaced.

Also Leventhal said that the President was angry at McCain and wanted to know why he was still head of Armed Services.

Honey Badger!!

cboldt

Jack, the problem isn't the rules. Even Roberts Rules of Order have a widget that allows the minority to be heard - to extend debate so their point could be offered.

The problem is the people and their abuse of rules. The Senate is the most dysfunctional deliberative body on the planet. It isn't the only body that twists rules to accomplish the opposite of what the rule is designed for. Courts do it all the time.

We are literally in an outcome-based structure. Outcome first, rationale after. "Rules based" is long gone.

Miss Marple the Deplorable

Jack, you can quote Festus, but I am in Ernest T. Bass territory:

Jane (Stand against the Coup)

I saw that clip between Russert and Trump on Fox yesterday. It was impressive and utterly consistent.

Janet the expert 🚬

She asks, "Why is it that in 1999, when he was a businessman, everyone wanted his opinion on things like North Korea, but now that he's President, he's suddenly a buffoon?"

What a good example of sensible Americans asking better questions & making logical observations that the MFM seem unable or unwilling to do.

Old Lurker

Iggy "What the hell is with all the snotty snark lately?"

Sorry, Iggy. I was just feeling thin skinned and defensive since I know the sky is falling and it is tiring running around the barn yard screaming about it when so many of my friends assume a master plan that will keep it up there.

I always think of myself as your good brother even when we snap. And I told Porch in an email she and I are acting like an old married couple.

:-)

Threadkiller

In 99 Trump was exploring a run for President. If you listen again to Russert's questions, you will pick up on his tone.

IMO, Russert wasn't setting a stage for Trump to be applauded, he was testing the water to see if he could drown Trump in it.

Old Lurker

TK nails it about Russert.

Appalled

Miss M:

The GOP as a body, rather than just Mitch, is responsible for the failure to repeal ACA. Despite what they said in 2016 and before, they did not really have a plan. That is true of Trump, too. If he actually had a text to argue from, he probably would have done a lot better.

From the way Trump talks, you would expect a deal maker like LBJ. But to use that model, you have to have the political details or the policy details down cold. And neither Trump, or for that matter, Tom Price, seems to have had that.

Hey, as somebody who won't ever be President said, it takes a village.

Jane (Stand against the Coup)

This is not good news:

Trump’s Legal Team Is No Match for Mueller’s

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-10/trump-s-legal-team-is-no-match-for-mueller-s

 joan

When McConnell says "they" are busy and have other things to do, I'm reminded of the revelation that most of them spend their time raising money for reelection, not working on the country's business -- which they were elected to perform.

I remember being shocked at how much time they (supposedly) used on the phone and probably emails, just raising money.

(Think the show was 60 Minutes -- it used to broadcast good information occasionally.)

Momto2

Ha!

Jon Ossoff will be leading a panel discussion at Netroots on Saturday about winning the 2018 midterm elections

David Burge tweeted:

Learn from the pros! Sign up for Ryan Leaf Quarterback Camp

Stephanie Puppy Pincushion extraordinaire

And neither Trump, or for that matter, Tom Price, seems to have had that.

And yet ole Tom had a plan in hand (and on his website when he was running for office in GA) that was readily available to read. He's a doctor and kinda knows what is working and what ain't. But good on ya to believe the crap the media is spewing about who is versed in the intricacies and who ain't.

:eyeroll:

Dave (in MA)
"Why is it that in 1999, when he was a businessman, everyone wanted his opinion on things like North Korea, but now that he's President, he's suddenly a buffoon?"
Because he got in the way of Evita Rodham's ascendancy.
Sue

When McConnell says "they" are busy and have other things to do, I'm reminded of the revelation that most of them spend their time raising money for reelection, not working on the country's business -- which they were elected to perform.

Repeal the 17th amendment. That will put a stop to them spending their time raising money.

Threadkiller

The GOP as a body, rather than just Mitch, is responsible for the failure to repeal ACA.

IOW, don't blame the person who is supposed to be the dealmaker of the Senate.

But:
From the way Trump talks, you would expect a deal maker like LBJ. But to use that model, you have to have the political details or the policy details down cold. And neither Trump, or for that matter, Tom Price, seems to have had that.

LOL! You blow it with your own words! Hahaha!

#TwoAmericas

Appalled

Stephanie:

But was the new boss on board with the Price plan? Where was his support? Obama talked monotonously about healthcare both during the campaign, and after his election. Trump didn't. Where were the rally stops in Maine and Alaska, when he needed the votes? Where was the come to Jeebus with Lamar Alexander (he voted against simple repeal)?

This President is good at tweeting blame, but he is not supporting his point of view in Congress, and not doing much of anything to get Congress to care that much about his alleged priorities.

Threadkiller

Appalled, are you kidding?

Extraneus

Actually, it was their alleged priority.

sbw

Can’t say I agree with you, Appalled. About much of anything.

Pushing a rope to get an object to move is useful insofar as it makes more of us aware that the object needs to move.

Trump as been doubly successful at that. Not only do we know it, but we also know that the establishment media -- in the same bed or bubble as entrenched politicians -- needs to recover its purpose or be bypassed.

Appalled

TK:

A valid plan is something you can pass, or use as a starting place. Neither Price or Trump felt the need to do that.

LOL indeed. Guess its going to be lots of noise, but just mostly stasis, until enough of the GOP tires of tweeted out insults and the daily weirdness, and impeach the guy.

Old Lurker

What we often miss when we look back to the DC dealmakers post WWII is that in those days Ds and Rs, having survived the Depression and having won WWII, were mostly all patriots. And DC was not yet a cradle to grave career where one can boss their lessers around.

Todays Ds would string JFK up to a tree and one would be hard pressed to identify any D who really wants the country as intended by its Founders. Sadly, many Rs are in that same boat and those who are not still look to DC as their gravy train to the good life.

So yes, there really are two Americas and it is difficult to find any common ground between DC and We the People.

rse

Thanks to everyone trying to help me yesterday on hat pdf that actually helps explain why there is no desire by the gop to pull back O'care. We really are looking at a total planned society as I just finished that doc. (wireless was the problem and supergeek solved this morning).

The gop knows that and they and their contributors are darn excited about it. Turns out NSF has created big data hubs starting in the FY2015 which also explains why the desire to get them out of the behavioral science funding was also a bust. 4 regional hubs that are a who's who of govts, industry, community org's, churches, chambers of commerce, universities.

Then the next year we funded a spokes system to create mini-consortiums on particular societal challenges. Ed is merely a component, but this is why true knowledge has been stripped away.

NSF proposals (FY 2018 for more spokes funding) has state dept of eds and statewide ed org's as explicit potential partners along with local school districts.

I had seen enough I recognized in that partial doc yesterday that when I saw the notice of a meeting on august 28 at columbia u I started pulling back on the partners and the funding and the ties to the resilient cities template.

Kentucky needs the regional equity philosophy because it's such a poor state. Same reason GOPs in rural areas of propserous states also have to go along with the govt steers all in partnership with business and higher ed and philanthropy template.

Marlene

Sue and joan...when Congress returns for their 12 days in September,they will be at breakfast,lunch and dinner "events" raising money. I usually get a quick phone call from my little birdie when she is running from one "event" to another.

Threadkiller

So Trump should have started his tenure with McConnell telling him that the GOP had no plan for 6 years and he shouldn't trust them?

Is that what you are saying, Appalled?

rse

And the ties to the nsf funded neuroscience work such as the BRAIN Initiative I have written about are explicitly mentioned in the various proposals.

For the SE hub Ga Tech and chapel hill are the pi's of that hub.

henry

Appalled is just concern trolling. At least he is polite.

Appalled

TK:

I'm saying he should have had a plan of his own. Or decided to own Price's when he hired him. (I honestly though that's what he was doing, when he chose him. My error) Instead, we have had a series of contradictory remarks on healthcare that you would need a psychic to divine meaning from.

Old Lurker

Proving my point about expectations & momentum:

Daily Caller "Nine months after Hillary Clinton was defeated by Donald Trump in the 2016 presidential election, a federal judge is ordering the State Department to make another attempt in locating Clinton´s missing emails about the 2012 Benghazi terrorist attack."

Why did we need a judge to order that?

Threadkiller

Appalled, this is bad reasoning for your standard. Henry is correct.

Did you run this one by the gang at Patterico to see what they think?

Neo

McClatchy tells us the ... Hillary Clinton wants to be a preacher

... God knows ... she is familiar with sin

LUN

Porchlight

And I told Porch in an email she and I are acting like an old married couple.

Indeed! It is fun, even when we don't agree. :)

Watch out, though, or I might decide not to make your gin and tonics very strong.

JM Hanes

Appalled:

You don't actually think Obama supplied the Obamacare plan to Congress do you? Good grief. It was Pelosi and Reid who wrote that sucker and got it done. Yes, Obama played public cheerleader, but I suspect the only actual input he had was making sure that his desired slush funds were included in the final legislation.

Buckeye

I was just feeling thin skinned and defensive since I know the sky is falling and it is tiring running around the barn yard screaming about it when so many of my friends assume a master plan that will keep it up there.

No worries OL.

You will know you have gone off the deep end when you start checking your ammo twice a day to make sure it is cool and dry.

Ask me how I know :)

Captain Hate

Just end all immigration from this dump and problem solved:

http://dailycaller.com/2017/08/09/salvadoran-newspaper-tells-immigrants-which-states-arent-safe-to-live-in-illegally/

Porchlight

I am totally on board with repealing the 17th amendment. Hear, hear.

Appalled

henry:

Since I have never pretended support for Trump, the "concern" part of things isn't true. Trolling? Ymmv.

TK:

You do have an obsession with that site. Maybe because of the sizable JOM exile community. Patterico wants to primary everyone who voted against repeal w/o replace. If that happens, he is more likely to end up up with 5 MAGA Senators, rather than the Mike Lee types he'd prefer.

Threadkiller

I have many obsessions. Some are for pure amusement.

What is the exile community up to? 2 or 3?

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

Trump had a basic plan that was outlined on his website long ago.
The problem is the GOPe is far more afraid of [and in agreement with] Andrea Mitchell and Jim Acosta than the voters and so they never considered for a moment anything other than a cobbled together mess they hoped wouldn't lose them too many Gerogetown invites or expose them to too much New Yorker venom.

Buckeye

And I told Porch in an email she and I are acting like an old married couple.

So presumably you have figured out there is NO way you are going to win that argument:)

Appalled

JMH:

He had an actual plan that he talked about. It wasn't what passed, but it gave him a seat at the table. Something Trump never really had, or even seemed to want.

By the way, can someone dig up a story on what Price has been doing with all the various gyrations? He has been seriously invisible during all this melodrama, and that is frankly weird.

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

Trump's magic slowly engulfs Appalled.

Threadkiller

Trump never really had, or even seemed to want.

Now you are making stuff up. See Ig's 10:21.

Appalled

sbw:

I would argue Trump and the GOP has probably secured Obamacare's permanence. At least until the Dems take over, and decide they can get away with single payer.

But again, we do disagree, and have been doing that for a while.

henry

McTurtle and Ryan appear to have saved the path to single payer. We knew that. Hence ledge, etc.

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

--I always think of myself as your good brother even when we snap.--

Hey, you said "sorry" which is a word I quite literally have never heard from the living case study I was afflicted with, so we're good. :)

Matthew 6:25-34 is a good reminder when pieces of the sky keep hitting you.

Buckeye

McTurtle and Ryan appear to have saved the path to single payer. We knew that. Hence ledge, etc.

How early should I open the bar?

Threadkiller

Don't ever close the bar.

Appalled

henry:

The area of disagreement is that Trump bears no responsibility for the failure. I believe he does; you all believe he does not, and, of course, it is obvious you all must be wrong.

OK. Time to do some work, and I hope I have not totally trolled up the site.

Captain Hate

Trump expected the legislature to do their jobs as defined by the Constitution instead of having Executive branch agencies making laws. The failure belongs to Ryan and McConnell, and any attempt to excuse their spending time on pointless investigations is ill placed.

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

You are approaching a cluelessness event horizon, Appalled.

What has cemented Barrycare has been the utter fear of the Dems and the press among the GOPe. They accepted as irreversible primary tenets of Barrycare not because they're good policy, but because they don't want to be called meanies and that make its effective repeal impossible and allow at best, fringe nibbling.

Trump has flailed to the extent he has been waiting for those poltroons to pass something, anything that could begin the process of fixing the mess.

Miss Marple the Deplorable

Appalled,

1. Tom Price had a plan.
2. The House managed to pass a plan AFTER Trump intervened to get the two sides together.
3. Mitch McConnell said the Senate wanted to do its OWN plan and then reconcile with the House.
4. McConnell told the President he had the votes.
5. McConnell did NOT have the votes. So either McConnell was lying or he is incompetent.
6. Exactly when was Trump (in the middle of about 1000 other things) supposed to fly all the way up to Alaska to get pressure on Murkowski, who no doubt counts on democrat support in her prima donna antics anyway? Why hasn't she been stripped of her committee seats? Why wasn't there horse trading with the deal maker of the Senate.

AND, most importantly, why haven't we heard any in the Senate really going after the dems for foot-dragging on the President's appointments, when they cheerfully approved Obama's right away?

And why did the Senate stay in session in order to prevent the President from doing recess appointments?

Do not come here with your low energy Jeb snark about how Trump doesn't know what he's doing. He knows exactly what all of these ingrates and frauds have been doing, and I, for one, am glad to see him call them out on it. There are people in this nation suffering while McConnell and his crew act like it''s 1955 and nothing needs to be done.

Pfft. Honey badger!!!!

Threadkiller


.

Appalled

Miss Marple:

"Low energy Jeb snark"?

Great turn of phrase. I am glad I continue to be an inspiration., ;)

Miss Marple the Deplorable

I picked a hell of a week to give up wine. And it's only Thursday!

Old Lurker

Scariest words heard on JOM: Porch might mess with my G&T ratio.

Appalled

Miss M:

One substantive comment -- I think the recess appointment window was slammed because Trump was making noises about firing Sessions. If Trump had kept his twitter dry, that might not have happened.

Now...work, dammit...

JM Hanes

Appalled:

I place the blame entirely on Congress. The President's job is not writing legislation. Trump would probably sign virtually anything that crowd put on his desk, and he can't sign anything that they don't put there. Congressional Republicans have had plenty of time to spend on bread and circus hearings, and they've had years to prepare for repeal and/ or repeal and replace -- years spent promising their voters to do just that! I'm not sure why people seem to believe that Presidents hold such sway over Congress, when the institutional obstacles seem pretty obvious (see: U.S. Constitution).

As for Obamacare, without Pelosi & Reid in the driver's seat, Obama would have ended up with zilch, no matter how many plans he put on the table. He produced a lot of budgets too. And held a lot of seminars, although I think were mostly intended to put off decisions or just make sure there were plenty of people available when back passing time came around.

Obama was not entirely ineffectual; he did manage to accomplish few really stupid, dangerous things on his own, but they mostly involved cutting Congress out of the loop entirely, not leading them anywhere..

cboldt

It's funny how the public transfers Congressional responsibilities, to the president. Masterful passing of the accountability buck.

Beasts of England

This is how I virtue signal:

:(

http://jalopnik.com/massive-fire-at-classic-car-dealership-destroys-large-n-1797677061

Sue

What's even funnier is how for 8 years it was all Bush's fault, never Clinton's and then for 8 more years it was again all Bush's fault, not Obama's and now 7 months into a Trump presidency, it is all Trump's fault never Obama's.

I see a pattern. Never blame a democrat for anything that goes wrong. And the media is not our friend.

Miss Marple the Deplorable

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-trump-won-in-two-dimensions-1502320256

This is accessible with no paywall.

Threadkiller

I think the recess appointment window was slammed because Trump was making noises about firing Sessions

The excuse they gave was that they wanted to restore the autonomy of The Legislative Branch and end Executive overreach into their affairs.

You, on the other hand, are upset that Trump didn't exceed his authority.

#BizarroWorld

Clarice Feldman

The Nation now admits the DNC wasn't hacked--it was a leak:https://www.thenation.com/article/a-new-report-raises-big-questions-about-last-years-dnc-hack/

sbw

Appalled: I would argue

Yes, you would.

Sue

What I wish Trump would tweet about is how the media seems to come up with the same talking points. If he started asking if journalist 2.0 was up and running the media would have a melt down. And I truly love the media in melt down.

 joan

Marlene and Sue,

The thing about that 'raising money for reelection' that got me was the news reporter showed video of the rooms they work in to raise money calling people. I guess I need to search around and see if I can come up with that bit of video. I can remember a couple of people were interviewed (sort of seriously on legislation) but then they were showed sitting at a table working the lobbyists. Made me sick.

Sue

JournOlist 2.0

Sue

Joan,

One of the first things that I started debating on the internet was repeal of the 17th amendment. That was 17 years ago, coincidentally. It isn't going to happen, but it would restore order in the senate. And return to the states that which the founders intended.

henry

Politico has an article suggesting DWS needs to go away quietly, and take the Awan scandal with her. Maybe that's what Appalled wants hidden.

BTW, we need to start heckling any govt employer of the Awans.

Old Lurker

I'd trade you the 17th if you'd repeal the 19th.

Sue

Your wife and your email wife might have something to say about that.

Tom Maguire
...that in those days Ds and Rs, having survived the Depression and having won WWII, were mostly all patriots.

Yes, but in addition we had not yet had the great purification in each party. Lots of Southerners were Democrats for historic reasons but Republican in spirit on defense and culture. Easy for Reagan to find D support then, but now those guys are all R.

Conversely, the Rockefeller Republicans in the NorthEast have been (mostly) flushed, so that portion of the aisle can't be reached across by Dems. (Maine has some deadender Senators.)

So the lack of bipartisnship is partly that as a country we have separated and congealed.

Miss Marple the Deplorable

henry,

One of them is my current representative, Andre Carson. (We have moved into his district.)

He's a Muslim, so he will no doubt call any criticism bigotry. Doesn't mean I won't speak up, though.

Captain Hate

Yes the Awan scandal is as big as DWS's fat ass which is why the MFM has gone into their Sergeant Schultz mode on it.

JMH, did you have a wee heavy in the source country?

 joan

Also, in re Appalled's remarks about Trump not doing 'anything' or 'enough' to pass the repeal and replace obamacare legislation -- that is a rubbish remark. Trump has been in constant motion since he was elected. My goodness the preparation for the trip to the Middle East would have fatigued a young man, let alone all of the other presidential work he's constantly doing.

(and, if someone or anyone -- and I'm specifically thinking of one or two of you who've criticized me before and you know who you are -- want to rag on me for taking issue with Appalled remarks you can stuff it because I have a busy life and can't monitor when posters are on here)

Miss Marple the Deplorable

joan,

I am right there with you! 100% correct!

Momto2

This is how bad it's gotten in GB.


Jack Montgomery Verified account @JackBMontgomery 2h2 hours

This is a real tweet from a real police constable.


6/5/17 #Transphobic #hate 8 #BurgessHill - Non-crime hate incident - Name calling between children. Under Investigation

Extraneus

Very interesting article, Clarice. I've never heard of Patrick Lawrence. Is he another Glenn Greenwald-type honest lefty?

Captain Hate

That article by The Nation is a huge crack in the stone wall. Kudos to them, I guess; although they've surely been sitting on it for a long time and reached the point where they felt they had to get in front of it.

Extraneus

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-10/pentagon-unveils-plan-pre-emptive-strike-north-korea-b-1-bombers

henry

Ext, misdirection for the "Rods from God"?

 joan

This is an interesting article:

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2017/08/counter-this-3.php

Jane (Stand against the Coup)

OL,

Do you ever run into Kerry on the island? Last time I saw him there he was pushing to the front of the line at the ice cream store - because of course he was John Kerry. Or did he sell his (wife's)house?

 joan

Here's the link to the 60 Minutes program I mentioned about our "leaders" becoming fundraisers -- calls them telemarketers.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-are-members-of-congress-becoming-telemarketers/

"The following is a script from "Dialing for Dollars" which aired on April 24, 2016. Norah O'Donnell is the correspondent. Patricia Shevlin and Miles Doran, producers.

"The American public has a low opinion of Congress. Only 14 percent think it's doing a good job. But Congress has excelled in one way. Raising money. Members of Congress raised more than a billion dollars for their 2014 election. And they never stop."

Sue

Clarice,

I read the Nation link and was astounded that the author is relying on VIPS. That is Scary Larry's old haunting grounds. Hopefully the story is true and will receive more coverage.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Wilson/Plame