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September 02, 2017

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boris

Alrighty then

Old Lurker

Football? Ha.

Iggy, previous thread "There is a sort of due process in asset forfeiture and the burden of proof is on the state to demonstrate the asset was used in or is a result of criminal activity.
I don't much like civil asset forfeiture but are we going to stop its use against terrorists or drug smugglers? If we only seize assets after a conviction we are dropping a powerful tool against the slickest gangsters among us."

As Cap'n rightly points out, all you need to know about individual rights v the state's ability to "demonstrate" is to see that the FISA Court sides with the government in 99.9% of secret petitions. Poof. Then the Sessions types say, well, the citizen can go to court and get his stuff back. Right. As has happened many times, the assets are long spent by the local cops etc before a judge orders their return, and then the government haggles to return a fraction in return for not appealing to change the cost-benefit calculus even more against the citizen. No private person who pays cash for his defense to get his cash back can win against a state who fights for free.

Baby. Meet Bathwater.

Old Lurker

...time for Maryrose to chime in that the stolen cash should be used to feed the needy so that everybody wins and the Brownshirts don't profit from their actions.

Barbara

It serves me right for turning on the TV to see the President and First Lady leave Andrews for Texas this morning. With the exception of Fox News, all the Cable channels were devoting their time to bashing President Trump for not being compassionate enough, for not really showing that he cared.

The kicker was when retired General Honore was interviewed so that he could state that it took too long for the relief effort to find and assist those who were stranded. We're talking about the storm of the century, but the response to his way of thinking was not fast enough. This is the same guy who in Katrina told the media not to get stuck on stupid, yet here he was hip deep in stupid, partnering with the media to criticize the responders.

One high note was that Melania wore a shirt waist dress and spike heels to board Air Force One. That a girl, Melania! Let media make of that what they will. A pox on all of them!

Frau Geburtstagskind

Good morning! Thank you for the surprise birthday wishes yesterday evening. Earlier, I had tried to post a message but encountered a strange Cloudflare error message on both my PC and Mac. Cloudflare was a total surprise.
Third time should do it:

Hope it was a most happy birthday for Frederick who is blessed with parents who give him faith, love and guidance.

Happy birthday to the most patient and gifted Mrs. TK.

And I am surprised that word got out that I put another wrinkle on my birthday suit today! I will continue celebrating tomorrow because that's the way I roll.

Thanks everybody here for the daily cheer and valuable companionship.
Sleep tasty.

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

OL, you pride yourself on looking at reality.
Well, reality is the vast, vast majority of asset forfeiture cases are from criminals.
You didn't note that the baby that goes out with the bathwater hampers terrorist or MS-13 type activities for a handful of abuses of innocents.
People are also innocently convicted of crimes. Should that prevent criminal asset forfeiture from occurring after a conviction?

There are a lot of ways of making it better without killing the baby. Placing a floor value below which an asset may not be seized. Changing the standard of proof. Awarding attorneys' fees and/or damages to an innocent's property wrongly seized. As maryrose has been ridiculed for saying; compel turning the assets over to a third party to eliminate perverse incentives.

The government has far too much power and any abuse of the asset forfeiture system is an example of that. But there is also a rather large problem that we all have griped about many times; criminals, especially organized ones, get away with murder all the time. One way to mitigate that is to seize what they got away with. The system to do that needs to be reformed without a doubt but to act as though the baby is worth tossing is only looking at one relatively small but very unjust side of the issue.

James D.

Aside from due process issues, civil forfeiture creates a huge issue with police departments relying on it for their funding.

Law enforcement should not be self-financing, or, even worse, a profit center.

It creates the worst possible incentives, both for the police themselves, and for legislators to turn a blind eye to abuses.

Miss Marple the Deplorable

Back from breakfast with some old friends from church. Gave them some info on various issues we have been discussing here. (Not asset forfeiture, though. HA!)

Sun is out and it is pretty cool. Very autumnal. (I like that word "autumnal" and don't get to use it very often. It's very BBC-ish.)

Miss Marple the Deplorable

James D.,

I didn't realize that it was that big a deal for funding police departments. I thought they did that with speeding tickets.

Miss Marple the Deplorable

Here's Melania in her "Femall" outfit and shoes, ready to board Marine One.

Attagirl!

Miss Marple the Deplorable


Donald J. TrumpÔÇĆVerified account @realDonaldTrump 1h1 hour ago

Departing for Texas and Louisiana with @FLOTUS Melania right now @JBA_NAFW. We will see you soon. America is with you!
=====================

Fox says ETA in Houston is 12:00 Eastern.

Miss Marple the Deplorable

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/09/01/harry-reid-named-in-court-filing-in-sen-menendez-corruption-trial/

 narciso.

Some perspective:

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/371390.php

 narciso.

I observed this yesterday

http://france24.com/en

Beasts of England

Since it's in topic: Roll Tide!!

Happy Birthday, Frau!! ­čÄë

James D.

Happy birthday, Frau!

pagar, a bacon, ham and sausage supporter

This is insane, IMO. We have already had William Ayers ruining US education for 50 years.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/01/public-school-teachers-behind-violent-antifa-group/

IMO, we are just letting a bunch of terrorists corrupt our children.

narciso

of course, the brigatte rossi and the baader were in education as well,

James D.

There are a lot of ways of making it better without killing the baby.

And they all start with real accountability and painful consequences for law enforcement officers and prosecutors who abuse their positions, break laws, are ignorant of the laws that they're supposed to enforce, or harm the citizens they're hired to protect whether through malice or negligence or incompetence.

When we start to see that happen, then I'll be willing to talk about asset forfeiture and other police powers.

But let's start to clean up crap like this first :

http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/09/01/salt-lake-city-police-apologize-for-officer-handcuffing-nurse-who-refused-blood-draw-of-unconscious-patient/

Yeh, it's got nothing to do with asset forfeiture, but everything to do with why I don't trust law enforcement and want them to have a lot less power.

narciso

he's got a point,


https://twitter.com/CuffyMeh/status/903972104479154177

also he slatters someone even crazier than mensch,
down thread

Old Lurker

Iggy, your 11:08 would work a lot better for me if anybody in either phony party in DC ever proposed anything like you suggest by way of tipping their hats to the Trump voters so that their, to them, very valid concerns might get some attention. Even Obama backed off both CF and Tanks for Cops because of the optics, certainly not to protect liberty of the little people. Did I miss any hint from Sessions that perhaps there might be a pendulum swung too far in a bad direction for the Constitutionalists that elected his boss so he himself could get the AG gig?

I do find it odd that every time I repeat myself on these issues, you repeat yourself in rebutting them.

On my side, I oppose this entire program because it is but one end of the continuum of applying unlimited Power of the State to benefit itself from people who cannot defend themselves...and it ends at the other end when a runaway DoJ can, for example, use that same club to force a private company to fork over assets either to the state or to a more favored private group simply by threatening "that nice business you got there". A few grand from a drug runner at one end leads to a few billion from a TBTF Bank.

Also on my side, I suggest that the amounts taken by CF are mere drops in the government $4T budget but anyone of them MIGHT be a life changing loss to the person cleaned out.

We used to be the country that would prefer to let many guilty go free rather than falsely convict an innocent man.

Old Lurker

James "and for legislators to turn a blind eye to abuses."

AND for legislators to avoid the hard job of actually budgeting and taxing to accomplish what the citizens want. Free rides for all! Vote for ME!

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

--Aside from due process issues, civil forfeiture creates a huge issue with police departments relying on it for their funding.

Law enforcement should not be self-financing, or, even worse, a profit center.--

That's the perverse incentive I remarked on.
The first recipient should be a non criminal victim[s] of the person the asset was seized from. The second should be hmmm...not non profits cuz then lefty state pals get it. Who? Perhaps a general fund set up for uncompensated victims of crime.

Rocco

Is it a coincidence that Comey wrote his exoneration memo for Hillary right around the same time those "computer experts", the "Union of Concerned Nerds" as they called themselves started digging when they heard word of Russia hacking because "We wanted to help defend both campaigns, because we wanted to preserve the integrity of the election".

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/10/was_a_server_registered_to_the_trump_organization_communicating_with_russia.html

Roll Tide

Old Lurker

The DC Govt has for decades wanted to have the ability to tax the incomes of people living in the burbs but who work in DC. While other Metro areas do that, DC has never been able to get such a tax through Congress.

Their solution: Know that 99.9% of commuters driving into DC come via a handful of choke-point bridges and arteries, they simply place auto ticket speed and redlight cameras all along those routes and collect gazillions and gazillions, 99.9% of it from people who do not live in DC.

No different that the famous speed traps of old where cops fined anybody with an out of state plate for "speeding".

Miss Marple the Deplorable

https://www.royal.uk/message-queen-following-floods-caused-hurricane-harvey

A message from the Queen.

Miss Marple the Deplorable

Aha! Proof!

From Twitter: Even in a natural disaster, no one wants the vegan food."

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DIqoygIUIAEfma_.jpg

Old Lurker

Iggy "Perhaps a general fund set up for uncompensated victims of crime."

NOTHING good EVER comes from creating a system where private money can be taken from one person and diverted to another person, less the vig paid to the state.

If assets are claimed by the state after a due process, then those assets should go into the general fund of the state with all other fines and fees the state collects in normal business. If there is a class of claimant (uncompensated victims of a crime), then let that person pursue a claim against the state, and let the state vote for a line item on its budget for such claims so we can all see both the "ins" and the "outs".

You know as well as, better than, almost anybody here what becomes of rent seeking and paying.

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

--I do find it odd that every time I repeat myself on these issues, you repeat yourself in rebutting them.--

Perhaps you're influenced by most likely finding yourself in this scenario one of the innocents deprived of his assets while my perspective is one of watching clever criminals who now how to skirt the law walking about with ill gotten gains no one can touch.

We're both talking about changing the system from what it is. I would not cry were civil forfeiture abolished completely, but would prefer to see it turned to benefit the victims of the criminals rather than the cops who show up to sweep up the mess. For every person ruined by a false civil asset seizure there are thousands of people ruined by criminals who get away scot-free.

--A few grand from a drug runner at one end leads to a few billion from a TBTF Bank.--

I assume you know that is not accurate. Giant fines and settlements as you describe are virtually never the result of asset forfeiture actions. They are standard civil and criminal prosecutions that would not be effected one whit by the abolishment of both civil and criminal asset forfeiture. That is its own separate, corrupt issue.

Miss Marple the Deplorable

http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/02/trump-puts-forward-his-pick-to-head-nasa-but-will-republicans-go-along-with-it/?utm_campaign=atdailycaller&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

Wait a minute; you have unbounded sympathy for the few innocents forced to go to court to get their assets back from the cops, but you think it's fair for someone already ruined by a crime to then have to go to court to prove they deserve to be compensated for what happened to them?

It is a part of a vast number of convictions already that restitution orders to known victims are made that are never paid. A general fund should be paid to them before any general funding of the government, seems to me. Asset forfeitures going into the general fund only removes the perverse incentive of government grabbing people's assets one step from the cops buying themselves ATVs with the dough.

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

Enough arguing.
Where's TK? Gotta change my F150 Pitman arm seal. Any tricks I should know about?
The only one I know of is turning it lock to lock to force the seal out which may or may not work.

Old Lurker

"I assume you know that is not accurate. Giant fines and settlements as you describe are virtually never the result of asset forfeiture actions."

Of course I know that. I tried to say that the continuum runs from CF at one end to TBTF banks at the other, but the common club in both is the power of the state overwhelming the interests of the individual or the private company. In most of the cases you read about, big companies pay up after a judicial process is started against them but that is often for PR purposes to cover the ass of the boards which would rather pay gazillions in fines or diversion than fight to the death, but they need their shareholders to accept that a fight to the death is bad for them. What you never see are the asset diversions that are forced when the state threatens to withhold an approval or yank a permit unless an asset diversion is proffered by the private guy to protect his window from the state brick throwers.

That's the common thread I'm talking about. It starts at CF in the middle of the night along I95N, and it ends with a NY Banks giving billions to liberal groups. In between are thousands of guys like me who have to cough up hundreds of thousands because Arlington County wants me to pay for a park somewhere so I can renovate a store elsewhere.

Miss Marple the Deplorable

If anyone knows about people ignoring court orders to make payment, it's me.

Miss Marple the Deplorable

The President and First lady are meeting victims including children at NRG Center in Houston.

henry

On Trump's NASA pick, yikes a "politician" that favors private space exploration / resource extraction. Rubio loses opportunities for graft, so he's butthurt. My simple rule on Trump appointments: if the powers that be hate it, I want it, and visa versa. The powers that be liked Sessions. Ergo rule works.

Old Lurker

"...innocents forced to go to court to get their assets back from the cops, but you think it's fair for someone already ruined by a crime to then have to go to court to prove they deserve to be compensated for what happened to them?"

The Constitution gives any citizen the right to sue to collect damages caused by another citizen.

The system gives any citizen the right to buy insurance against the chance he will be injured by another but cannot collect from him.

Nowhere does the Constitution require all the other citizens to reimburse one person for damage caused by another person not the state, nor does it give any one person the right to use the unlimited power of the state to take from one group to give to another for his perceived damages.

But if a state wants to create, with the blessing of its voters, an "uninsured motorist insurance fund" and if some of that is funded by tax dollars and some by private fees all out in the open, and if there is a standard of proof required to claim against that fund...I got no problem with that. The voters can at any time in the future decide that the system has gone bad and do away with it.

I don't think some land locked resident on top of a mountain in WV should have to pay to rebuild my ocean front house on Nantucket just because the $1,000 per year I paid to the "Flood Insurance Fund" was not sufficient to rebuild after the storm. If the feds had stayed out of that mess, then perhaps I could buy private insurance for a risk appropriate premium or elect to self insure or elect not to build there. But hell, if the entire society will help me out for chump change, then I am free to make all sorts of dumb decisions.

How was THAT for going off an a tangent?

Miss Marple the Deplorable

I am insulted that I have to listen to Brad Blakeman tell me what President Trump MUST do.

Mr. FAILURE THEATER GOP can go to hell.

maryrose

OL:
I understand your argument wrt civil asset forfeiture.
You have a lot to lose if falsely accused.
I also see Iggy's concern about established criminals who seem to know how to protect themselves.
Happy birthday belated Frau!
I had already signed off and didn't know it was your big day.
Happy Anniversary to the Hates and the Lurkers.
Over 40 years is a real milestone.
Your wives are fortunate to have such caring and generous husbands. Your grandkids are blessed as well.
JamesD:
I also have difficulty with the law enforcement and legal system.
I want consequences for the blatant lawbreakers in Washington DC but I am not certain it will happen.
This latest Comey revelation really shook my confidence in the FBI and in our Justice System.
I thought it was just the IRS.
Obama will skate free just like he did after illegally opening sealed divorce records of his Senate opponent in order to begin his illegal quest for the presidency.
We put up with him for 8 years ruining our country and he did a good enough job of that to prevent Hillary's rise.
I hope all will be revealed but the amount of scrambling going on now to
hide or destroy evidence is breathtaking.

 narciso.

I guess this was a footnote in gibbon


https://thehistoricalnovel.com/2014/10/01/katherine-of-alexandriadecline-of-an-empire/

Yes oil, its all about the tendrils of administration that detocqueville foretold nearly two hundred years ago

rich

Rocco thanks for digging up that Slate link. That report was just after the meeting with the Russian lawyer.

a wilderness of mirrors.

And wha ... Maryland up 16 on Texas?

Miss Marple the Deplorable

The President and Melania are working on a food line and are being swamped with people who want to have his picture and are telling them how much they love him!

Glad I have Fox on as I am sure this isn't on CNN.

Old Lurker

Maryrose "OL:I understand your argument wrt civil asset forfeiture. You have a lot to lose if falsely accused."

Golly I would hope that after all these years you would give me credit for thinking about the system as a whole and not for my own little personal nest egg! Do you realize how offensive that statement was?

Miss Marple the Deplorable

Also, the people are MINORITIES!

rich

it is like Team Muller is investigating a failed FBI sting operation against the Trump Campaign and the obstruction is that the Trump Campaign didn't take the bait.

[iirc, the FBI and ATF were essentially investigating one another in a botched federal investigation into the Mongols]

Miss Marple the Deplorable

rich,

That is EXACTLY what happened! Are you on Twitter? If not, can I steal that?

cboldt

Politifact on the job ...
Navy destroyer hitting Houston building not true. Good thing politifact is there, see Women stranded overnight on Muskegon River while tubing for the sort of person who benefits.

maryrose

OL:
You misunderstand.
I was speaking in general if someone was falsely accused.
I am misunderstood on this blog frequently because I seem to have difficulty in expressing my opinion in a manner that portrays my real meaning.
I would not insult you in that way.
I will refrain from comments on this topic.

 narciso.

As a general rule there is something about the broad application of Cf general warrants that says Magna carta what was the point again

Old Lurker

Maryrose, you are too kind to have insulted me on purpose, I know that.

The point I was making in reacting that way is that, in the spirit of the Founders, good people profess support for grand ideas that will "lift all boats" and often without looking to their own personal enrichment before advocating a position. The great cancer that is loose among us is exactly pitting one group against another by appealing to their personal gain or absence of loss so that that political power can be used against another...all for the empowerment of the puppet masters.

So yes, I have more to lose than many, but most of the men who signed the Declaration of Independence pledged everything they had including their lives for a system that would benefit all men. Compared to them, I am a piker.

But my simple offense at Civil Forfeiture without Due Process (and the slippery slope that portends) would appeal to all of them much more than it seems to to many even here.

You should always speak your mind here because we all value it and learn from what you say.

rich

Posted by: Miss Marple the Deplorable | September 02, 2017 at 01:46 PM

steal away. not on twitter.

maryrose

I don't believe in spreading the wealth around ala Obama.
We need tax reform and a better healthcare plan.
Sept 30th is the deadline for doing these two items via reconciliation.
I hope the Congress is aware of this pending timeline.
The next few weeks should be interesting.

Miss Marple the Deplorable

Read red-circled headlines from top down, which is chronological order:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DIvRzsOUMAQ20ng.jpg

Miss Marple the Deplorable

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/capital-weather-gang/wp/2017/09/02/hurricane-irma-remains-a-potential-u-s-threat-expected-to-become-a-category-4-in-days-ahead/

Models and maps. Everyone on the East Coast from Florida to Maine should pay attention.

Clarice Feldman

Fwiw I'm with OL on civil asset forfeiture.And why the hell is Sessions reviving this crap when the country is now largely aware of the deep corruption in his Dept and by the former head of the FBI?Has Rosenstein been in a coma these past few weeks?

Love "Comey is a good friend" McCarthy now claiming Comey didn't muff the Clinton investigation on his own, he was following Obama's wishes.; This from the same guy who just pasted Trunp for pardoning Arpaio.

Thomas Collins

Patriots get receiving and possible punt returning help from the Colts for Brissett.

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2017/09/02/patriots-trade-jacoby-brissett-to-colts/

Thomas Collins

Re civil asset forfeiture: It should be suspended at all governmental levels until a thorough analysis can be done on whether Ignatz's point about starving the terrorists and drug kingpins can be addressed without the abuses that have come to light. I would say my biggest disappointment with the Trump Administration has been what I would describe as a cavalier attitude toward the problems with the current civil asset forfeiture regime.

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

--Nowhere does the Constitution require all the other citizens to reimburse one person for damage caused by another person not the state, nor does it give any one person the right to use the unlimited power of the state to take from one group to give to another for his perceived damages.--

What are you talking about?
Did I mention either of those scenarios?
A court order for restitution from a convicted felon is hardly a "perceived" damage.
Nor is using the assets seized from a criminal to compensate the victims of other crimes forcing "the other citizens" to reimburse anyone.

Old Lurker

Iggy,

You jumped on me for suggesting a victim of a crime would have to go to court (sue) to submit a claim for reimbursement - but now you assume a court order for restitution to that injured party fell out of the sky? How'd that happen?

And where I stated that assets forfeited if they are taken should go into the General Fund, that makes them assets of all "the other citizens" which you would rather divert at the get go to the special group you like.

That's what I was talking about.

Thomas Collins

Often when there is an allegation in the news of police misconduct, it turns out that the police were justified in taking the action being scrutinized. Here's a bold prediction that won't be the case in the situation described in the article linked below.

09/01/salt-lake-city-police-apologize-for-officer-handcuffing-nurse-who-refused-blood-draw


maryrose

I am ready for some Notre Dame football starting in 2 minutes.
I am celebrating a sister in law birthday in a surprise party starting at 5:30.
Will have to tape the BAMA game.
Recycling the old Will and Grace crew for a fall lineup redo.
Messing hasn't had any success since the original show ended.
At least Karen and Jack have been on Broadway and Will had a psycho-drama on TNT.

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

--But my simple offense at Civil Forfeiture without Due Process...--

But there is Due Process.
I don't like the form it takes but I don't deny it exists.
The point of civil forfeiture was to punish and weaken powerful and distant criminals who could not be reached by the long arm of criminal law.

That point is not served by seizing assets that have relatively little value from non criminals who can't afford to fight for their assets nor even from small time crooks.
Consequently there should be a floor for the value of civilly seized assets, while there should be none for criminal asset forfeiture.
And it's a given the agency doing the seizing should not get to divy up the proceeds.
That was sort of the outrageous case in the Moonlight Fire settlement we talked about a few years ago. A fire was started near Quincy CA that burned a lot of acres. The state fire inspectors faked how it started because their retirement club got a cut of the settlement from the timber company.
Perverse incentives produce perversity, unsurprisingly. If they can't be addressed then I have no problem abolishing civil forfeiture altogether.

In addition to TC's proposed study I'd like to see a credible study on just how often innocent bystanders actually have their assets seized. We're told all sorts of things are going on constantly that very seldom actually do; like abductions of children by strangers. Kind of hard to deal with a problem without knowing its magnitude except through anecdotes.

Old Lurker

TC "Re civil asset forfeiture: It should be suspended at all governmental levels until a thorough analysis can be done on whether Ignatz's point about starving the terrorists and drug kingpins can be addressed without the abuses that have come to light. I would say my biggest disappointment with the Trump Administration has been what I would describe as a cavalier attitude toward the problems with the current civil asset forfeiture regime."

I would like that test to be first whether civil asset forfeitures are even a material hindrance to drug dealers and terrorists at all and if so how much. Only then can the second half of the equation be worked out ie what are we willing to pay to obtain what is obtained.

On balance I would propose, for arguments sake, that no civil assets of any kind should be taken from a US citizen or company without the completion (by verdict or by settlement only after a case is presented) of due process. And then all such assets taken or fines assessed should go into the General Fund of the State or Federal Government, from which it can only be spent through regular order budgeting mechanics and then only on the presumption that the procuring agency itself does not get "rewarded" for obtaining the assets for the General Fund.

TC, your second point about the optics is precisely the note I have strumming for several months now.

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

--How'd that happen?-

It usually happens when a criminal is caught. As part of his sentence, if a victim has reported the crime or is known and had some property stolen or suffered other harm, restitution is often part of the sentence doled out by the court in the criminal sentencing or plea bargain phase.

--And where I stated that assets forfeited if they are taken should go into the General Fund, that makes them assets of all "the other citizens"...--

Yeah, but before they are given to all the other citizens I'm suggesting those assets, which you previously stated are a mere drop in the bucket to the state but might be an individual's whole world, ought to go to some of those individuals instead of the state.
It can't be evil "Leviathan" one minute and the noble "citizenry" the next, can it?

Miss Marple the Deplorable

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2017/09/02/lots-of-love-in-texas-president-trump-visits-houston-harvey-relief-center/comment-page-1/#comment-4336631

Lots of videos and photos. MSM going to have a hard time with all those black Texans taking selfies with the President and Melania and telling him how much they love him.

Old Lurker

Iggy. "The point of civil forfeiture was to punish and weaken powerful and distant criminals who could not be reached by the long arm of criminal law."

And the point of a secret FISA courts allowing secret access to heretofore confidential domestic communications among US Citizens was to go after distant terrorists in foreign lands who want to hurt us. Until it was used to tap into the phones of opposing candidates for the US Presidency.

And the point of requiring the IRS approve applications for favored tax treatment was to ensure that entities which should be taxed are. Until it became useful to immediately approve requests from groups on one side of politics and to never even answer or outright deny groups on the opposing side.

Our country has been driven to the edge of ruin by an unbroken flood of laws and regulations which started out sounding benign and good before they became anything but.

Janet the expert ­čÜČ

John McCain slams Trump in Italy, recommits to America's role in world

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/john-mccain-slams-trump-in-italy-recommits-to-americas-role-in-world/article/2633280

I would love a huge recall effort for McCain. It's not enough to sit around & let bitter, losers undermine America & American citizens for years while we wait for the next election to roll around.

Recall his butt.
He's sick...well, too bad.
When my kids were sick they weren't allowed to be mean & sassy.

Recalling some of the pompous Senators would sure send a message. They think they are untouchable.

Old Lurker

I don't think Recall is an option for Senators, Janet.

Miss Marple the Deplorable

Janet,

They tried to recall him once before but abandoned the effort after 9/11 happened. It was gaining steam THEN, and it that was 17 years ago! He's gotten much worse.

And if he has a brain tumor and is undergoing chemotherapy, why is he flying over to Italy? What's THAT about?

Old Lurker

"They think they are untouchable."

Sadly, they are more right than wrong in that.

Janet the expert ­čÜČ

I guess a Senator can't be recalled. :(

http://peopleof.oureverydaylife.com/recall-us-senator-7932.html

maryrose

MM:
Harvey and Antifa are losers for the Dems and MEssNBC therefore they are back in Russia mode.
Plus after a few days real tragedy is boring to the media.

Janet the expert ­čÜČ

Thanks, OL.

It is all so frustrating....

Old Lurker

Janet,

Mitch Rapp...or for Narc, Dewey Andreas.

Comanche Voter

Ah Barbara and Miss Marple; I see you two are picking up on the fashionistas silly grousing about Mrs. Trump wearing stiletto heels as she boarded Air Force One to fly to Texas this week. Wore stilleto heels both times yes she did, and that got the pearl clutchers shrieking "You can't wear stilettos to walk in a swamp~!" Well there is some truth to that. There is also a good solid fact that Mrs. Trump has room to change her clothes on Air Force One before she gets to Texas. And so she did. She came off the plane wearing"sensible sneakers".


But--how can our First Lady wear sneakers that look like $9.99 Ked specials off the remainder rack at K Mart! Seriously, Queen Moochelle wore $600 sneakers to a photo op at a soup kitchen in Washington D.C. I will say that Mrs.Trump's sneakers (white on Tuesday in Corpus Christi) light blue today in Houston looked to be clean and in good shape. They might have been brand new and fresh out of the shoe box, but they were appropriate for the occasion. I don't have any real issues with Mrs. Trump. She's a vast improvement over our previous First Lady--but she ought to spend a bit more on sneakers.

maryrose

I know I am swimming against the tide here but if McCain only has a few months to live he should travel as long as he has the strength to do it.
Who cares what he says about President Trump?
He is only doing it to goad the President into saying something hurtful about a sick dying man.
Let him tarnish his own legacy.
When the country is taken back by our President,McCain will be long gone and not a part of it

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

OL,
Name a power given to government that can't and hasn't been abused.
The question always is, does the benefit of giving it a certain power outweigh the cost.
I remain unconvinced the cost of civil asset forfeiture is prohibitive because I haven't seen anything that gives an idea of the amount of abuse.

narciso

Hoover is criticized in large measure because he did not concentrate on organized crime for much of his term (hence the rosensteil and weitz slanders) however anslinger did and since ej Epstein through to nadelman not to mention valentine, be is given little credit, in fact the implication is they collaborated with various mobs and Camarilla.

Of course when progressives commandeer the panopticon for their own means, the peanut gAllery grows silent.except when local constubularies cAn be demonized ie ferguson.
Progressive insurgents can be allowed to rampage whereas local auxiliaries must be netralized

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

--he should travel as long as he has the strength to do it--

Yeah, as a private citizen.

Captain Hate

McCain's brain is less functional than his prostate.

Rocco

You're welcome rich, I bookmarked that link when you posted it a while back. I just thought the timing with Comey's exoneration letter too cute. And how did these clowns get word that the Russians hacked the DNC? Is this the genesis of the whole Russian BS?

Wow TC, just when I thought I had Belichick figured out. I never thought they'd go with only two QB's.

Old Lurker

Maryrose " if McCain only has a few months to live he should travel as long as he has the strength to do it."

You know WE pay for all that, right? Should we pay for everybody near the end in nursing homes first class travel anywhere in the world they like for the last few months of their lives?

Sometimes you just make it too easy for me, Maryrose!

maryrose

Comanche:
Then the media would complain her tennis shoes are too expensive.
I never call them sneakers.
Kicks maybe but not sneakers.
Melanie is lovely and fashionable.
Only ones complaining are frumpy biddies who wish they looked like her

maryrose

I am for quality of life for as long as it can happen.Let him cash in while he can.
His years in a prison camp took away his youth.
I don't begrudge him making up for lost time at the end.
Just like with Bergdahl.
I dont want a long prison term for him after his 5 years of captivity.
I do want a dishonorable discharge and no book deals. The

maryrose

Iggy:
McCain is going to die in office.
He won't resign.

Old Lurker

Finally Iggy and I are on the same page "The question always is, does the benefit of giving it a certain power outweigh the cost."

That was a point I made to TC at 3:38.

My basic answer, based on looking at history especially here since 1776, is that any power taken from an individual and given to his government will, in the end, do more damage to individuals than good. That being said, living together requires some rules and some grants of power to the government, but the Founders were wise enough to see that the list should be very short and quite specific. It wasn't until Humpty Dumpty came along to assign new meanings to plain words like "pursuit", "welfare", and "commerce" that it all went to Hell.

Jack is Back!

How did the Gators and Meechigan get so lucky to play their first game in Jerry's Magnus Opus? I thought all of Texas was flooded?

Frau S├╝tterlinschrift

For Miss M - they will have to pry Palmer or D'Nealian from our ink-stained fingers.

https://safr.kingfeatures.com/idn/cnfeed/zone/js/content.php?file=aHR0cDovL3NhZnIua2luZ2ZlYXR1cmVzLmNvbS9CaXphcnJvLzIwMTcvMDgvQml6YXJyb19udGIuMjAxNzA4MjdfOTAwLmdpZg==

Old Lurker

Maryrose, does it mean nothing to you that the money he spends comes from you and me - and does not feed the hungry or care for the sick because John is flying 1st Class to Italy...again? While YOU might be happy to pay your money for his enjoyment, where do you get off telling me I should do the same?

Captain Hate

Just like with Bergdahl.
I dont want a long prison term for him after his 5 years of captivity.

He deserted and people died trying to find him. Also Preznit Cock Curious released some very bad people to get his worthless carcass back. He deserves a firing squad.

Old Lurker

"McCain is going to die in office."

At the rate he is going, he is more likely to die in a free five star suite on a lake in Europe than in his office, sitting at his desk.

:-)

cboldt

Ignatz - civil forfeiture has been expanded to what I consider an unreasonable degree. The state is taking advantage of its power. Substantial expansion in the last 40-50 years. Started as customs/admiralty (thousand years of that); grew into prohibition in the 1920's; and now touches all sorts of crimes.

As you point out, not a problem in principle; but it is a problem in practice.

Similar to administrative agencies, whereby Congress abdicates responsibility and avoids responsibility. To some extent, okay in principle.

Even if I had ideas of how to turn back the clock, they'd be useless. The parasite state is determined to kill the host.

maryrose

Notre Dame winning 14 to 0 over Temple but is that a fair match- up?
I thought Temple was a basketball school.
Some of my husbands cousins are at the ND game.
I wonder if cathyf is watching now that Wonder Boy and Wonder Girl have graduated.
Porch:
I thought about you the other day and when your youngest boy was born.
I can't believe how fast time goes.
I figured out today I have known my husband's family for 40 years.

Frau S├╝tterlinschrift

Sometimes my brain is taken over by my realistic West TX mother: I believe McCain went in for his surgery just as the hounds were on his heels about his leading role in the Russian dossier scam. It was too, too convenient, and I am actually slow to suspect the worst of most people. Add to the timing, I have read that he is not really ready for the end of his career in DC or elsewhere. Tales of his demise...

maryrose

OL:
You really made me laugh!
You and Dave from Mass. are really hysterical!

maryrose

OL:
The poor we will always have with us.
McCain will not be around much longer. McCain Feingold was a big bust and he lost the presidency twice.
He is searching for a legacy which eludes him.
Becoming irrelevant is his punishment.

Captain Hate

I heard that Jeff Sessions is cheering for Meeechigan today.

DebinGA

"The motion confirms that neither the FBI nor the Justice Department's National Security Division have records documenting wiretaps as alleged by President Trump"

Iirc the Trump wiretaps/FISA shenans allegedly originated in the FBI's Counterintelligence Division, still headed by Hillary supporter Bill Priestap, not the National Security Division.

Ignatz Ratzkywatzky

--Even if I had ideas of how to turn back the clock, they'd be useless.--

I'll sell you mine for a buck.

Thomas Collins

I wonder who the emergency QB will be now, Rocco, if both Brady and Garoppolo get knocked out of a game. I had assumed that would be Edelman's role if Jacoby were traded or cut. Now that option is not available. Perhaps Gronk can apply his amazing physical skills to the emergency task. After all, he apparently is eating those super carrots Brady is supposedly preparing for him. :-). In any event, the most likely issue for the Pats will be the outside line play on defense.

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