A Cite For Swiftee Eyes - A New "Kerry In Cambodia"

An alert reader points me to a "Kerry in Cambodia" cite that, as best I can tell, will be new to the Swiftees, and everyone else. This is an AP story from 1992 interviewing Sen. Kerry about a committee hearing into the fate of missing POWs/MIAs:

06/25

Kerry-MIA

Copyright, 1992. The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

By JOHN DIAMOND
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Navy Lt. John Kerry knew he had no business steering his Mekong River patrol boat across the border into Cambodia, but orders were orders.

A quarter-century later, Sen. John Kerry says newly declassified documents have convinced him fellow servicemen captured on such trips were left behind at war's end.

Kerry, D-Mass., announced this week at hearings of the Senate Select Committee on POW-MIA Affairs he chairs that as many as 133 U.S. servicemen may have been left behind, either as unrecorded fatalities or prisoners of war, when the Vietnam War ended in 1973.

This conclusion that the government failed to account for all its soldiers, sailors and fliers did not come easily for the 48-year-old senator. Through two decades of political activism since he returned from Vietnam, first as an opponent of the war, then as a lawmaker, Kerry has remained studiously neutral
on the POW-MIA question.

Veterans groups and researchers of varying credibility raised allegations and published photographs suggesting that Americans might still be languishing in Southeast Asian stalags. Bereaved family members pleaded with lawmakers to rescue loved ones they were convinced were still alive. Kerry said only that
there was evidence that needed to be explored.

"I've always said there's evidence. But I'm not going to draw any conclusions about this until we do a sound, sensible job," Kerry said in an interview. "This conclusion was drawn from documents which no one saw 10 years ago."

But for Kerry, who spent six violent months commanding a patrol boat on the Mekong River, there's always been a ring of truth to allegations of abandoned Americans. By Christmas 1968, part of Kerry's patrol extended across the border of South Vietnam into Cambodia.

"We were told, `Just go up there and do your patrol. Everybody was over there (in Cambodia). Nobody thought twice about it," Kerry said. One of the missions, which Kerry, at the time, was ordered not to discuss, involved taking CIA operatives into Cambodia to search for enemy enclaves.

"I can remember wondering, `If you're going to go, what happens to you,"' Kerry said.

Excerpts continue below.

Quick reaction - if I were a Kerry defender, I would like the CIA, hush-hush, everyone is lying angle.

And that is it for the defense - what about "Everybody was over there"? The Swiftees are not backing him on this, and three of his shipmates seemed to have spent Christmas elsewhere. Maybe they were channeling Yogi Berra - nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded.

One wonders - were any US boats going upriver into Cambodia? And did John Kerry specifically do so? This post strongly rebuts the Kerry story as it has been presented so far.

Many sources at the Vietnam Veterans of America.

Captain Ed has "Kerry in Cambodia" cites, and a letter from the Swiftees detailing their allegations.

This PBS show says that in 1967, "Pursuing their enemy, American and South Vietnamese aircraft often attacked across the Cambodian border. Sihanouk criticized Secretary of State Dean Rusk, who was then trying to repair relations." OK, that could result in POWs/MIAs; it does not mention boats, but how surprised would you be to learn that some boats did cross the border? OTOH, the Cambodians couldn't control their airspace; a river would have been more manageable. On the third hand, covert ops to rescue airmen or scout the VC probably were happening. However, Swift boats were 50 feet long, and noisy; smaller, quieter boats were available, and perhaps more suitable. Beats me, but I am distracting myself - Kerry has no after-action reports, no witnesses, a story by Brinkley that puts him too far from the border, and a less-than-full crew supporting him - not good. Unless everyone is lying except John!

UPDATE: Early reaction is not favorable to Kerry - plenty of links to recap the discussion, and some colorful quotes.

ANOTHER UPDATE: US News and World Report put Kerry in Cambodia in a May 2000 article. This time, he is running supplies on clandestine missions - cool! To be serious, it might be his last mission, running SEALs to the border in support of Operation Menu, Nixon's bombing of Cambodia (Brinkley, p 324-328).

Kerry was wounded three times, received three Purple Hearts, the Silver Star and the Bronze Star. After his Navy tour ended in 1969, Kerry co-founded Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

Declassified documents released at the hearings show that the government altered its intelligence information to hide the fate of U.S. pilots and soldiers downed in secret missions to Cambodia and Laos during the war. The concealment extended to listing a casualty as "killed in action, body not
recovered," when, in fact, the remains had been found.

"What I'm saying is that when the government announced all the POWs are home and when the government said the MIAs are dead, that was not true," Kerry said. "There was a list of people that we had evidence of being captives whom we should have accounted for then, not 20 years later."

Some of the missions were routine cross-border actions, not sanctioned as part of the official U.S. war effort. Others were "black ops," secret operations far into Laotian and Cambodian territory.

Historian Stanley Karnow, author of "Vietnam: A History," said in a telephone interview that secret ground and air raids into Laos and Cambodia continued throughout the Vietnam War in violation of treaties. Cambodian air raids intensified under President Nixon beginning in 1969, leading up to the U.S.
invasion of Cambodia in April 1970, Karnow said.

The military's falsification of records created a lasting problem in sorting out the killed, captured and unknown.

"The lists are so screwed up frankly that it's very hard to patch it together," Kerry said.

Kerry emphasizes that he has no evidence that any U.S. serviceman remains alive in captivity in Southeast Asia. Nor does he speak of any Rambo-like rescue mission. Rather, the next step is a methodical and continuing unfolding of the facts.

"It's not a good story but it's important that we understand it and it's important that we put the conspiracy theories behind us if we can," Kerry said. "But we're not there yet."

OK, A US News and World Report story from May 2000 places Kerry in Cambodia, but with no exciting details. Reporter confusion, Kerry resume-padding, or a reference to his last missions on March 19-19 (see Brinkley, p 324-328).

Title: A Mission to Cambodia
Highlight: Is a trial deal near?
Author(s): Kevin Whitelaw
Citation: May 8, 2000 p 33
Section: World Report
Copyright © 2003 U.S.News & World Report, L.P. All rights reserved.
Subjects: CAMBODIA; MULTIPLE HOMICIDES; KERRY, JOHN
Word Count: 247

Abstract: Sen. John Kerry is trying to organize an international tribunal to hear the genocide case against the Khmer Rouge.

Article Text: Sen. John Kerry made his first forays into Cambodia during the Vietnam War as a Navy lieutenant on clandestine missions to deliver weapons to anticommunist forces. When he returned last week, the mission was official, but dicey nonetheless. At the request of the United Nations, Kerry is trying to broker a compromise on how to try leaders of the former Khmer Rouge regime, whose late 1970s reign of terror claimed the lives of some 1.7 million Cambodians.

Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen wants to control any court looking into genocide charges, but U.S. and U.N. officials have demanded an international tribunal. "You can't have a situation where a justice system that many people view as inoperative will have the ability to trump the international community's consensus," says Kerry. Kerry is offering a compromise to allow for co-prosecutors and co-investigators. Both Cambodian and foreign judges would have to agree before an indictment could be thrown out. Hun Sen had initially accepted the proposal but ran into hard-line opposition from his political allies. Kerry anticipates a deal could be struck as early as this week.

Still, the parliament needs to go along, and many members of the ruling party (including Hun Sen) held low- or mid-level posts in the Khmer Rouge regime and might be reluctant to sign on. A legislative debate has been delayed until late May, ostensibly because of a termite infestation of the parliament building.

Comments

[Wild Bill]

Are you ready for some swift spin by the Democrats?

[Franklinstein]

Tin-foil hat goes on

When do you suppose the MSM will realise this is the perfect excuse to destroy Kerry so that they can get Hillary in '08?

Tin-foil hat comes off (I have to go to work and pay bills and stuff.)

[J_Crater]

I can only assume that they will get Wesley Clark to comment on this with something like .. "We've heard all these stories before but .."
This does show though that the AP can certainly be snookered .. "let's give it to them .. they'll believe anything". John Diamond (if I got the right one) appears to have died over three years ago, so he won't be of any help.
All that's missing is a Pulitzer Prize or two to make the media damage complete.

[antimedia]

Six months? Kerry was only in country for four!

"One of the missions"? Kerry has claimed one mission at Christmas. Now he's claiming more than one?

This is blowing my mind.

[Brian]

"Six months? Kerry was only in country for four!"

He served two missions, but I'm not sure how long each one was. Are you saying that his two missions totaled four months?

[Brian]

I'm not really sure how this reflects negatively on Kerry and how it relates to him allegedly lying about his service and wounds.

[antimedia]

(And help me here - didn't I see an article mentioning that some of his shipmates don't remember going to Cambodia?)

Tom, you're thinking of the Drudgereport.

http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc91.htm

"At least three of the five crewmen on Kerry’s boat, Bill Zaldonis, Steven Hatch, and Steve Gardner, deny that they or their boat were ever in Cambodia."

[Brian]

Oops, never mind.

[Michael]

His Swift Boat mission was only four months. I believe his other mission was something like seven months, but it non-combat.

[TM]

Thanks, Antimedia (man, I want to call you Anti-Em, this is killing me) - I dropped that query out of the post, so these comments will be a bit of a puzzle.

Things to Do - how do we verify that those three crewman are not supporting the story - the Boston Globe, maybe?

[Brainster]

Wow! Great pickup off Usenet!

I wonder if the POW/MIA angle from that story might have some legs. Kerry gets a lot of criticism from the POW/MIA families for his supposed whitewash of the issue.

[No Oil For Pacifists]

Great posts; great links. I've got an updated summary at:

http://nooilforpacifists.blogspot.com/2004/08/kerry-tales-part-xliii-holidays-in.html

[Brainster]

Michael, his tour aboard the Gridley was also four months. Don't have the reference here in front of me anymore but Tour of Duty makes the dates clear.

[robert0]

if you guys don't think american boots were crossing the line in 1968 you're idiots. was kerry's one of them. who the fuck cares? he was a lot closer than the male yale cheerleader. goooooooo team! yeah! leg kick! who-hooo.

[Nahanni]

Robert0,

Your post typifies the LLL's who are trying desperately to get that waffling hypocrite John Kerry elected.

I applaud your efforts, and not for the reasons you think. With each howling moonbat post, with every MSM-put-more-lipstick-on-the-pig spinfest you are convincing more and more of my relatives and friends that what I have been telling them all along is true. That the Democratic party has lost any resemblance of sanity, that they should be more concerned about people like George Soros then Ken Ley, that the only difference between Michael Moore and Leni Reifenstahl(sp) is that Leni was at least a halfway decent cinematographer. You have also helped me convince them that Fox News seems conservative only because the MSM has gone off the Liberal/Marxist/Leftist deepend straight into the abyss of yellow journalism. That the Democrats are so DESPERATE for power that they are willing to pull things that even Richard Nixon at his most paranoid would not do.

So far you and your ilk have helped me convince my mother, my brother and my best friend, all of whom have NEVER voted for ANY Republican EVER to vote Republican this year. That is 3 votes in battleground states that you folks have lost so far. 3 voters who have ALWAYS voted Democratic! Many more are on the way I can assure you, because they are spreading the word among their friends and relatives.

So thank you and keep up the good work!

[robert0]

so which part of my post is not true?

[lola]

Go back and reread other folks' comments, complete with evidence, and compare against your statements. I'm sure you're smart enough to figure it out.

[Al Maviva]

Get off the good Senator’s case. You all are a bunch of hippocrats. For example, I give you this interview from a documentary on Viet Nam, featuring Senator Kerry’s testimony:

“I asked for a mission, and so they gave me one. Every day I spent at Cam Ranh Bay, Charlie was in the bush, getting stronger. Speaking of Bush, he’s an errand boy sent by grocery clerks. Have you ever seen a snail crawl on the edge of a razor and not die? I’m a poet warrior in the classical sense.

The horror.

The horror.

[Pouncer]

Hi Robert0,

Statistically, the likliehood of 40% or more of the public being "idiots" is so infinitesmial that we can simply state it to be " not true" without fear of exaggeration.

Circumstantial "Ad Hominem" arguments are generally a fallacy. But the "Ab Hominen" argument ( "My statements must be considered true and valuable because I have special knowledge; I was there.") is generally NOT a fallacy. It's a legitimate pleading.

Unless, of course, one claims special knowledge or experience that one does not in fact possess.

If Harold Hill claims to have graduated from the Gary Conservatory of Music, Class of '05 -- he argues that River City NEEDS a boys' band; that need being recognizable by any expert such as himself.

However, a question or counter-claim intended to debunk the claim of authority -- while still an ab hominem argument -- is NOT fallacious. So if Marian the Librarian reveals that the Gary Conservatory of Music was not even established until OUGHT-SIX, she's making a real and non-fallacious contribution to the debate.

A counter-"ab hominem" claim that Marion the Librarian had a affair with the rich old man who left her all the books, (and a further claim that her supposed "brother" Winthrop is in reality the illegitimate son of that illicit pair) is irrelevant to the question of the authority of Harold Hill and the need for River City to establish a boys' band.

John Kerry, like Harold Hill, has been selling a lie for his whole career. Interestingly, he hasn't sold it, previously, on the basis of his own heroism. He doesn't claim to have been in Cambodia to rescue downed pilots or run weapons to beleaguered villages. He claims he was an abused victim of an illegal order to expand a mistaken war. In short, his lie is a lie intended to attack the reputation of the United States.

If Shrub is a cheerleader, he's a cheerleader for OUR SIDE. Kerry is a player, but he's a player for the OTHER SIDE, the anti-American, the "we never do anything outside our own borders that isn't illegal, immoral, or fattening" side of the debate. And, being unable to bring sufficient facts to bear to play his position fairly, Kerry cheats, and can be demonstrated to have cheated for years.

That's why we, "the fuck", care.

Clear?

[BarCodeKing]

After reading the sample chapter of "Unfit For Command" and learning about how Kerry was so unhappy about being assigned to the dangerous assignment at An Thoi that he bitched until they reassigned him just to get rid of him, I finally realized who Kerry reminds me of: Major Frank Burns from M*A*S*H. And while Burns would be able to claim that he served in Korea and thus was a hero, you certainly wouldn't vote for him for president.

Now, you might say, "Hey, that's not fair! Frank Burns is a fictional character!" And you'd be right. On the other hand, it appears that John F. Kerry's middle initial might also stand for "Fictional" after what we've been reading lately.

[Slartibartfast]

I'm sure you're smart enough to figure it out.

I don't share your optimism. Where's the evidence?

[Andrew Schouten]

The Horror. The Horror.

[Tracer Hand]

Get enough on-the-record quotes, facts, and people together for an article about this and I'll read it - but until then I'll take this for the desperate hand-waving that it looks like.

btw I doubt Ralph Reed et al are going to push this story very far, regardless. If this election comes down to a comparison of each candidates' truthfulness about his military record well, eh. Ditto the ill-conceived post-convention strategy of saying "b-b-but what about Kerry's last twenty years!!" What about Bush's. Oops.

[Robert Speirs]

Bottom line: Kerry plays fast and loose with the truth and assumes that people will believe him because he's John Kerry. This is not the kind of character America needs in the most important job in the world.

[Paul Zrimsek]

Go ahead and call him "Anti-Em", Tom-- as you've managed to go the entire weekend without saying "Nobody expects the Kranish Inquisition", who would deny you the right to indulge yourself a little?

Any truth to the rumor that you're having your name legally changed to Tom Swift?

[Joanna]

>if you guys don't think american boots were crossing the line in 1968 you're idiots.

Sure "american boots" were crossing the line...that already been brought out to air. And that's exactly what makes Kerry's careless bragging about his exploits in Cambodia so reprehensible. The "american boots" crossing the line were incredibly courageous and highly trained special ops. Kerry's casual boasting about being behind the lines in Cambodia is just DISGUSTING. If Kerry was a special op (LOL!) let him reveal his war records. That will settle it once and for all.

>was kerry's one of them. who the fuck cares?

Terry McAuliffe apparently. LOL.

>he was a lot closer than the male yale cheerleader. goooooooo team! yeah! leg kick! who-hooo

you're betting on a loser, bud. LOL.

[furious_a]

Did Ensign Kerry take his boat up the Nung River past the Do Lung bridge?

KERRY: What do you think, Chief?

CHIEF: I don't think. And get that 8mm camera outta my face! My orders are I'm not supposed to know where I'm taking this boat, so I don't. But one look at you and I know it's going to be hot, wherever it is.

KERRY: We're going upriver about 75 clicks past the Do Lung Bridge. Christmas Day, President Nixon's orders.

CHIEF: President Nix..Who? Ain't Johnson still president? And ain't anything past the Do Lung bridge 'cept Cambodia. And I said GET THAT 8MM CAMERA OUTTA MY FACE!

KERRY: That's classified. And please don't look directly at the camera. Hey, is that a scorpion...OWWW! B*st*rd stung me!! You saw it, Chief...PURPLE HEART!! PURPLE HEART!!

(with apologies to John Milius and FF Coppolla)

[Ripper]

A fourth source; the local depository library has the Kerry POW Senate Report on microfilm, he mentions the previous vists.

Author: John F. Kerry
July 1991

Trip to Thailand Cabodia and Vietnam

here's the relevant part on page 1
"... During the war, military operations had carried me throughout many of the waterways and coast lines of southern Vietnam and even, occasionally, into Cambodia. "

images of these pages to follow

Here's the refernce info, so you can make your own copy.

1750.
Author: Kerry, John, 1943-
Title: Trip to Thailand, Cambodia, and Vietnam report to the Committee
on Foreign Relations, United States Senate.
Publisher: Washington : U.S. G.P.O. :For sale by the Supt. of Docs.,
Congressional Sales Office, U.S. G.P.O., 1991.
Description: v, 16 p. ; 24 cm.

Doc. Numbers: GPO Item No.: 1039-A, 1039-B (MF)
Govt Doc No.: Y 4.F 76/2:S.prt.102-40.

[robert0]

"Bottom line: Kerry plays fast and loose with the truth and assumes that people will believe him because he's John Kerry. This is not the kind of character America needs in the most important job in the world."

That is rich.

As for cheerleading for "our side", yes, I can see him there now with a pair of pom-poms smirking vacantly as more than 68,000 fine young American soldiers were killed in action.

Vietnam was folly. And so is Iraq.

"Kerry's casual boasting about being behind the lines in Cambodia is just DISGUSTING"

Then surely you were equally appalled when GW strutted on the deck in that painfully ignoble "Mission Accomplished" moment, and when he handed a plastic turkey to the troops in Baghdad, and when he opposed the 911 commission, and then stonewalled it, and the took credit for creating it, and when he got the PDB titled "Bin Laden determined to strike in US" and then went fishin', and WHEN HE BURNED AN UNDERCOVER AL-QAEDA ASSET IN PAKISTAN IN AN ACT OF STUNNINGLY MAGNIFICENT INCOMPETENCE, COMPLETELY FUCKING UP SEVERAL ONGOING INVESTINGATIONS.

sheesh. if you can't see the writing on the wall, you're one of a dwindling minority.

[ed]

Hmmm.

"I finally realized who Kerry reminds me of: Major Frank Burns from M*A*S*H."

Hey didn't Frank Burns put in for a Purple Heart in one episode? Hmmm. For a "shell fragment in the eye"? An *eggshell* fragment?

God that's funny as hell! Good call.

[ed]

Hmmm.

"Then surely you were equally appalled when GW strutted on the deck in that painfully ignoble"

ROFLMAO!!

Jesus you got every damn thing wrong in that post!

That displays an ability of ineptitude beyond that of mortal man.

[ed]

Hmmmm.

LOL. Here we go again.

It's not about Bush, it's all about Kerry.

If you can't refute the arguements made then you've lost the debate. If all you've got is to bash Bush yet again, even after 4 years of it, then you've also lost.

Don't like it? Too bad.

[ter0]

JFKerry may have backed off the Christmas in Cambodia story in "Tour of Duty" but he was still peddling the "I was in Cambodia on secret mission with the CIA" as late as last summer.

The Washington Post
June 1, 2003 Sunday
HEADLINE: Hunter, Dreamer, Realist;Complexity Infuses Senator's Ambition
BYLINE: Laura Blumenfeld, Washington Post Staff Writer

*****************

But even in Massachusetts, polls have put his job approval rating ahead of his personal popularity rating. His friend Dan Barbiero said it comes down to Kerry's complexity: "There's still a lot of idealism in John. It's corny and people tend to be cynical, and coming from this big, patrician--looking man you wouldn't expect it. You look at him and say, 'He's putting this on.' "
It's been a hard rap to overcome in part because Kerry is reserved. He inherited it from his mother, along with her devotion to public service. "She taught us you stiff--upper--lip it," said his sister, Diana Kerry. "John is a man of the people.
Of the little people, actually. He needs to project who he really is by simplifying."
And who is he, really?

A close associate hints: There's a secret compartment in Kerry's briefcase. He carries the black attach everywhere.
Asked about it on several occasions, Kerry brushed it aside. Finally, trapped in an interview, he exhaled and clicked open his case.
"Who told you?" he demanded as he reached inside. "My friends don't know about this."
The hat was a little mildewy. The green camouflage was fading, the seams fraying.

"My good luck hat," Kerry said, happy to see it. "Given to me by a CIA guy as we went in for a special mission in Cambodia."

Kerry put on the hat, pulling the brim over his forehead. His blue button--down shirt and tie clashed with the camouflage. He pointed his finger and raised his thumb, creating an imaginary gun. He looked silly, yet suddenly his campaign message was clear: Citizen--soldier. Linking patriotism to public service. It wasn't complex after all; it was Kerry.
He smiled and aimed his finger: "Pow."

[ParseThis]

1. It's not all about Kerry. You say Kerry is bad. Compared to what? Seriously, man! Compared to what?

2. Let's see if I can elevate this discussion. Has anyone asked this Swifties -- these men of honesty, integrity and truth -- if they weren't high on something and had no idea where they were or what they doing most of the time?

[John LeBlanc]

Just one minute there.

You quote, "Kerry co-founded Vietnam Veterans Against the War." Not that this might shock anyone, but John Kerry did not co-found that organization.

And in keeping with providing eyewitness testimony that Kerry supporters can then ignore, I point you to the FAQ section of the Vietnam Verterans Against the War website:

http://www.vvaw.org/faq/#4

There you will find, "He was not one of the original founding members of VVAW in 1967."

This entire web of conspiracies against Kerry knows no bounds, does it?

John

[robert0]

All wrong? Feel free to correct my errors then. Pretty please. Enlighten me.

Bashing? No. Calling George Bush an ignorant, illiterate, wanna-be Texan redneck hillbilly dumbass, now that's bashing. What I've mentioned are facts. There is little disputing, the war ain't over. Bush most definitely opposed and then later stonewalled the 911 commission. And someone in the administration most definitely burned an undercover al-Queda mole.

What's wrong with judging a president on his record? It doesn't even matter what I think about John Kerry (johnkerryisadouchebagbutimvotingforhimanyway.com), he couldn't possibly be worse than the guy born in Connecticut who calls himself Texan. No. No way he could be worse than that.

[robert0]

And where in the hell is Osama Bin Laden? GW said he was gonna get 'em dead or alive...

Which, I got to ask, do you believe Saddam had his hand in 911? Do you believe we found the WMD?

[playgurizer]

"STRADDLING AND WAFFLING....Does John Kerry sometimes straddle difficult issues in an effort to please multiple constituencies? Sure. So do all politicians. Kerry's real problem, though, isn't that he straddles more than anyone else, but that he does it badly. When he explains his positions, he sounds like he's straddling.

George Bush is Kerry's exact opposite. He straddles issues with as much vigor as most politicians, but nonetheless manages to retain a reputation as a straight talking guy who says what he means and means what he says.

Today is an appropriate day to write about Bush's penchant for straddling issues because it's the third anniversary of the first great straddle of his presidency: the stem cell straddle. After weeks of well publicized agonizing three summers ago, he announced on August 9, 2001, that he would approve federal funding for embryonic stem cell lines already in existence but not for any new ones. This was an exquisitely calibrated position designed to keep his pro-life credibility intact with his conservative Christian base but still appear reasonable and non-scary to moderate suburbanites.

And that was just the start. He opposed the creation of a Department of Homeland Security, but when public pressure became too strong he changed his mind and supported it after all. He opposed accounting reform after the Enron scandal, but then signed the Sarbanes-Oxley bill as if he had campaigned on the idea. He opposed the 9/11 Commission, but when its recommendations came out he suddenly announced that he would adopt all of them. Except that he didn't: he adopted the language of the commission but none of the substance.

These three straddles have a common feature: initially Bush took one side of the issue, but when it became clear that public opinion was against him he not only switched sides, he did it with gusto. By the time the dust cleared, you would have thought they were his ideas in the first place.

And this was hardly the first time. As governor of Texas, he opposed a Patients' Bill of Rights twice. It finally passed over his opposition and without his signature in 1997, but by 2000, when he was campaigning for the presidency, he was bragging about it. You'd hardly know he had ever been anything but a proud and enthusiastic supporter.

Other straddles follow a different pattern. Bush says he favors free trade, for example, but when his advisors told him he needed to shore up his support in key swing states he promptly proposed tariffs on steel, subsidies for farm goods, and quotas on Chinese bras.

Then there are straddles with more subtlety. After months of tiptoeing around the subject of gay marriage, for example, he finally caved in to his conservative Christian base and announced that he supported a constitutional amendment to ban it. But despite his strong words, he knew very well that it would never pass Congress and did almost nothing to build support for it. Result: street cred with the fundamentalist crowd, but no actual result that can be held against him during the fall campaign.

On other subjects his actions flatly contradict his words. He says he supports veterans and the military, but has consistently opposed efforts to raise their pay and benefits. He said he wouldn't negotiate with North Korea, but after a year of shilly-shallying he began quietly doing exactly that. He claims to favor small government, but has grown government in practically all areas faster than any president since LBJ.

So what explains Bush's reputation as a straight shooter? Two things. First, he has a pair of signature issues on which he's been as resolute as a bulldozer: Iraq and taxes. On these two issues, both of which have widespread support among both his conservative base and voters at large, Bush has been steadfast.

Second, and more important, his rhetoric is simple and uncompromising and most people are surprisingly willing to uncritically accept his speechwriters' words as a reflection of his real self. Even the press, which has seen Bush's clever waffling and straddling on a wide variety of subjects firsthand for nearly four years, has been mostly taken in by his rhetoric. On practically every major issue aside from taxes and Iraq, he's adopted carefully calculated, poll-tested positions, clothed them in unyielding language, and gotten away with it. His reputation for being plainspoken has remained intact.

But if you scratch below the surface, it's pretty plain that Kerry and Bush, like practically all politicians, straddle and waffle in nearly identical ways. If anything, Bush probably does it more than Kerry. The difference is that he does it better. Much, much better."

[El Jefecito]

There's not much to add to Pouncer's demolition of robert0, so I'll just cite another fact that robert0 got wrong.

The following is from Tim Blair's blog at http://timblair.spleenville.com/archives/007164.php

[Note--I would have linked to and pasted the original NYT corrections item, but it's almost a month old now and the paper seems to have moved it into the pay area of its website.]

July 11, 2004
TURKEY NOT FAKE: NYT

In an historic media first, the New York Times has published a fake turkey correction:

An article last Sunday about surprises in politics referred incorrectly to the turkey carried by President Bush during his unannounced visit to American troops in Baghdad over Thanksgiving. It was real, not fake.

Let's see if this diminishes the bird's powerful hold over the gullible and sad.

Posted by Tim Blair at July 11, 2004 08:19 PM

[hector]

robert0 said:

Then surely you were equally appalled when GW strutted on the deck in that painfully ignoble "Mission Accomplished" moment, and when he handed a plastic turkey to the troops in Baghdad, and when he opposed the 911 commission, and then stonewalled it, and the took credit for creating it, and when he got the PDB titled "Bin Laden determined to strike in US" and then went fishin', and WHEN HE BURNED AN UNDERCOVER AL-QAEDA ASSET IN PAKISTAN IN AN ACT OF STUNNINGLY MAGNIFICENT INCOMPETENCE, COMPLETELY FUCKING UP SEVERAL ONGOING INVESTINGATIONS.

and the best defense anyone could come up with was:

TURKEY NOT FAKE????

[CLYDE MERIT]

NONE OF OUR TROOPS EVER WENT INTO CAMBODIA DURING THE VIETNAM WAR.

THAT IS A BALD FACED LIE.

KERRY PROBABLY WAS NOT EVEN WITH THE BOAT IN CHRISTMAS OF '68. MOST OFFICERS TOOK THE HOLIDAYS OFF.

[section9]

Robert:

1. Why should anyone have been appalled when the President declared major military operations to have been concluded? That was and remains a fact. What is occuring now in Iraq is counterinsurgency. The "armor on armor" and infantry on infantry phases of the war ended a year ago. Only a partisan such as you cannot see the difference. The mission is accomplished: Saddam will never return to power, and there is a damn good chance that, despite your fondest wishes, his fascist allies will not return to power either.

Unless Kerry gets elected and stages a shameless Saigon bugout, which I strongly suspect he will do.

2. Looks like you bought the "plastic turkey" meme hook, line, and sinker, didn't you?

3. Your assertion that the President stonewalled the 9-11 Commission is a lie, and you know it. The President rightly opposed the creation of the commission during the war, as he knew that the Dhimmicrats would use it as a partisan club, which they did. But once it was created, he cooperated fully with the commission, up to and including testimony by Dr. Rice and release of your Holy Grail, the August 6th PDB, which...

4. Told the President nothing that wasn't known about UBL already by most thinking people. The famous August 6th memo said that "bin Laden was determined to attack the U.S.", it said nothing about time, place, and means. Geez, if that's the best the CIA could do, I'm not surprised we were attacked when we were. The President's vacation has nothing to do with the contents of the memo, which were vague, at best, and historical for the most part.

5. The Paki was burned by Pakistanis first, then by us. Once it was out and he was in a safe house, we could burn him. We released his name because the damn fool Dhimmicrats were going on about the suspicious timing of Ridge's warnings. You assclowns just had to be convinced, so we convinced you.

Now run along and play the Dhimmi tax like a good Dhimmicrat.

[robert0]

"1. Why should anyone have been appalled when the President declared major military operations to have been concluded? That was and remains a fact. What is occuring now in Iraq is counterinsurgency."

I guess it depends on what the meaning of "military operations" is. Soldiers continue to die. Daily. Call it what you want.

And follow the headlines. What would you call what's happened in Najaf over the last 48 hours?

That aside, my statement was in response to a comment that it was "disgusting" to see Kerry brag about things that only "special forces" would have done. My response was certainly it would be disgusting, too, to see Bush, on tax-payer dollars I might add, strut around in a flight suit.

Bush, according to all known records, is a military deserter.

2. Point well taken. The turkey was not plastic. It was a real turkey being used for decoration of the chow line. Bush picked it up. No harm no foul.

3. Please. Pay attention. Bush appointed a fucking war criminal to head the 911 commision, not unlike appointing Pinochet to to investigate Abu Graib war crimes. The commission was underfunded, with unnecessarily tight deadlines. The commission repeatedly had to threaten the administration with subpoenas to get the docs they wanted. Not one person from the administration testified under oath (lying under oath is a crime).

Remember Bush said he could not meet with the commission. Then only if he was with Cheney. Then only for an hour. Then, after intese pressure from 911 families, a little longer. But not under oath. And not at the commission. Only at the White House.

4. When there was a terrorist threat under clinton, clinton ordered terror "czar" Richard Clarke to pull out all the stops. Tighten border security, increase surveillance and so on. Bush took office and fired Clarke. When he got the PDB, he did nothing, except go fishing. The PDB contained the terms "New York", "hijack", "airplanes", "Osama bin Laden".

I expect leaders to lead. And when they don't, they should be prepared to face the consequences.

And all that bollocks about the CIA indicates to me that you have not been watching with both eyes. All the corrupt intelligence (ie smoke from A. Chalabi, showered with roses) came straight through the OSP, with Cheney, Woolsley, Feith and the rest of those idiots leading the cheer.

5. No no no. Condi Rice burned him. Full stop. Quite possibly the best undercover asset the US has ever had, dusted. Why? Because those big bad democrats were "going on about the suspicious timing of Ridge's warnings".

Come on man. Bush is a rich kid that's never had stand up like a man. He not responsible for anything. Ever.

Vote early. Vote often.

[AB]

Man this place is so great. It's amazing how people can defend this guy Bush.

They ruined the Al Qaeda undercover op because the Dimmocrats were hurting their feelings? Wow, these are some tough hombres we have in this White House, isn't it? Like who cares about National Security as long as Bush's reputation doesn't get damaged so close to an election. What is this, the schoolyard?

How come nothing is Bush's fault? It's like the Demcrats made me do it, or I didn't know what was going on at Abu Ghraib. These are their defenses! And that's leadership? Not knowing what's going on is leadership? It's his JOB to know what's going on!

[Raven]

CLYDE MERIT writes: "KERRY PROBABLY WAS NOT EVEN WITH THE BOAT IN CHRISTMAS OF '68. MOST OFFICERS TOOK THE HOLIDAYS OFF."

Try: "Involved in several enemy initiated fire fights, including an ambush during the Christmas truce, he effectively suppressed enemy fire and is unofficially credited with 20 enemy killed in action."

From Kerry's Fitness Report (page 24 of this PDF):

LTJG Kerry was assigned to this division for only a short time but during that time exhibited all the traits desired of an officer in a combat environment. He frequently exhibited a high sense of imagination and judgement in planning operations against the enemy in the Mekong Delta. Involved in several enemy initiated fire fights, including an ambush during the Christmas truce, he effectively suppressed enemy fire and is unofficially credited with 20 enemy killed in action. Though relatively new to the PCF he is thoroughly knowledgeable of all aspects of his boat and PCF operations. He was instrumental in planning of highly successful Sea Lords Operations. He was cited for his performance during action against the enemy by Commander Task Force in his message 080807Z Jan 69.

Note that "performance during action" doesn't sound like his only participation was "planning".

Now to add that "Sea Lords Operations" involved incursions into Cambodia.

As to whether it's implausible that a SWIFT boat might go into Cambodia and drop someone off there, note:   "The fellow on the right was a freelance journalist and photographer that had caught a ride into Cambodia on a US Swift Boat. He asked to be dropped off on the shore to proceed on his own. It is hoped that he found what he was looking for and survived to tell about it."

Sure doesn't sound like getting a Swift boat into Cambodia was "physically impossible", as Steve Gardner claimed.

[Raven]

In fact, the Navy said Swift boats were involved in those Cambodian incursions:

An acronym for "Southeast Asia Lake, Ocean, River, Delta Strategy", SEALORDS started on October 18, 1968 when a Navy Swift boat (PCF) reconnoitered the entrance to the Cua Lon River on the Gulf of Thailand side of the Ca Mau Penisula. Following this mission, Swift boat crewmen conducted a series of incursions along the southern rivers and canals upsetting base camps and cutting Viet Cong supply and communication lines.

So Gardner simply lied.

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