Liberals For Terri

Thunder from the left on behalf of Terri Schiavo's parents and siblings: Nat Hentoff, Jesse Jackson, and the Liberals for Terri blog.

Listening to Sean Hannity praise Jesse Jackson was indescribable.

Well, Noam Scheiber thinks that Democrats will be campaigning as supporters of Operation Iraqi Freedom by 2008; maybe they will switch sides on this a bit more quickly.

MORE:  The Brother Judd chides Scheiber and Democrats.

UPDATE:  Who's The Man?  We have all been wondering how this ties in to the Sharpton-Jackson tussle for leadership of whatever faction for whom they claim to speak.  Fortunately, the Times is all over this like a borrowed suit:

The Rev. Patrick Mahoney of the Christian Defense Coalition, who has lobbied Congress and the Florida Legislature on behalf of the Schindlers, said he posed the idea last week of inviting Mr. Jackson to Pinellas Park. First, Mr. Mahoney said in a phone interview, he asked the Rev. Al Sharpton to get involved. When Mr. Sharpton refused, he said, he told Randall Terry, the anti-abortion activist who has served as a spokesman for the Schindlers, to reach out to Mr. Jackson.

...Mr. Sharpton said in a phone interview that like Mr. Jackson, he supported resuming Ms. Schiavo's feeding, but that it would be hypocritical for him to advocate last-minute government intervention here after criticizing President Bush and Republicans in Congress for enacting the legislation that authorized the federal courts to step in.

"I do as a minister support her being reconnected," he said, "but I do not feel that I could respond to the request and at the same time criticize the president for intervening."

We will make a states' rights conservative out of Al yet.  (Yes, he was adamantly opposed to states leading the way on civil rights during the primaries - am I looking for logic and consistency?)

Comments

[Mark Amerman]

Is Nat Hentoff really left-wing? Not in my eyes.

[Steve M.]

Can't explain the others, but Hentoff's been a hardcore right-to-lifer for years.

[TM]

Following the links, here is Hentoff on Hentoff: I'm considered a liberal except for that unaccountable heresy of recent years that has to do with pro-life matters.

And that was years ago. Beats me.

[Miracle Max]

Jackson, Nader, and McGuire -- Los Tres Amigos. Maybe we could trade Marshall Wittman and Joe Lieberman for Bruce Bartlett and Chuck Hagel. Or how about, you take Alan Colmes and we get Joe Scarborough.

[TM]

You get Scarborough for a raver to be named later.

[Pandora]

If you think Sean Hannity's behavior was beyond belief. You should have heard Mark Levine fawning over Raplh Nader. Levine has radio show here in NY metro area which comes on after Sean.

[TM]

You should have heard Mark Levine fawning over Raplh Nader.

I DID hear that, and nearly crashed the car. Lions and lambs sleeping together, or something.

[Appalled Moderate]

Nader and Jackson are two folk who firmly believe the government should interfere in the private doings of Americans to cure all manner of social ills (both real and perceivied). Strikes me that they are being thoroughly consistent. Hannity and the like minded are following their party's abandonment of Reagan's small government conservatism. They are not being consistent.

[TM]

Hannity and the like minded are following their party's abandonment of Reagan's small government conservatism.

Well, first, states rights and small government conservatism two of my principles, but not my only two, and not the most important.

Secondly, I don't want to re-fight the Iran-Contra wars, and I don't intend to argue about "What would Reagan do", but... it is my impression that he was a sucker for a human interest story, and that one reason we got dragged into the arms/hostages scenario is that Reagan had a hard time putting US foreign policy ahead of the fate of the hostages.

Now, maybe that that was just the Reagan spinners talking.

Anyway, I just said I *not* do this, so let me just say that - I bet there are folks who *LUV* Reagan who believe he would be on the side of Terri's parents, and would not consider it to be inconsistent with Reagan's total package of values (although it conflicts with the "small gov't" subset).

[Appalled Moderate]

TM:

One of the balancing acts Reagan did was to persuade the religious right he believed in their values, while not sacrificing his political capital at pushing their agenda. What Reagan would have done in this instance -- I do not know. Let's just say that he made no similar interventions during his term, and leave it at that. I will stand by my comment there is a contradiction between the animating values of Reagan's "Government isn't the solution; it's part of the problem" worldview, and the enactment of a special bill to try to overturn the Florida courts in the Shiavo matter.

[Big Dog]

Are you trying to argue, then, that judicial review is not a power of the legislature?

[Appalled Moderate]

Big Dog:

Family law usually is a state matter. In this one case, Congress tried to federalize it because it disagreed with how the state resolved the problem. The means Congress used is likely constitutional.

The question is -- would you rather have a state or local govenment or the federal government solve your problem? Under the old GOP philosophy, the state or local government was favored. In the Schiavo case, attaining a desired result has trumped the belief that local jurisdictions can best govern themselves.

[MMM]

Can we put this lark to bed, please?

Jackson was there because national attention and cameras are there. Face time. Nothing more. Were I Terri's father I would have told the pimp to take a hike.

(And while I'm at it; Sean Hannity has become an unoriginal, repetitious, whiny nag.)

[Cecil Turner]

"The question is -- would you rather have a state or local govenment or the federal government solve your problem?"

Ah, so now we need to get rid of all national-level protections for life, liberty, and due process?

I suspect the left's new-found respect for state and local government would be short-lived if the subject were Roe V. Wade (or either the 5th or 14th amendments, et al). And charges of hypocrisy could be leveled as easily the other direction, and be precisely as convincing. (Which is to say: "not very.")

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

"Or how about, you take Alan Colmes....'

Who got off the single most stupid comment on Terri Schiavo I've heard, last night. In response to someone pointing out that government was posting armed guards to arrest anyone who might try to put a few ice shavings in the woman's mouth, he said:

"That would be dangerous [for her, because she can't swallow]."

[Appalled Moderate]

Cecil:

You are probably right about Roe. Due process of law is a 14th amendment protection (and the mechanism by which the protections of the bill of rights have been extended to state actions). And the Terri's parents have been using 14th amendment arguments. So, I think you are mistaken, there.

As for accusations of hypocracy -- I haven't been making them. I believe members are Congress are sincere in what they are trying to do; they've just forgotten the virtues of small government.

[Black Jack]

Things that make you go hummm..

Would it make any difference to the Rev Al if Terri was a black woman? Would he consider food and water among her "civil rights" then? Just a thought.

[Cecil Turner]

"And the Terri's parents have been using 14th amendment arguments. So, I think you are mistaken, there."

I suspect if you were to try the more general 14th amendment case (e.g., exempting state police from Mirandizing), the wails from the ACLU (among others) would be deafening.

"I believe members are Congress are sincere in what they are trying to do; they've just forgotten the virtues of small government."

They might respond that there is no more basic human right than life, and that it's entirely appropriate for the federal government to safeguard it . . . especially if the states are treating it in a cavalier fashion.

[creepy dude]

"...especially if the states are treating it in a cavalier fashion."

Damn Pesky states.

April 11, 2003: "In an unprecedented move, the governor of U.S. midwestern state of Illinois has commuted the death sentences of all of his state's more than 150 death row inmates.

Governor George Ryan said almost all of the inmates will now serve life sentences because his state's death penalty system is deeply flawed. "How many more cases of wrongful conviction have to occur, before we can all agree, that this system in Illinois is broken," he said.

But HOLD ON!

One of the first pieces of legislation passed after the Republicans gained control of Congress was the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996 which provided a new "deference" standard, mandating that the federal courts, in reviewing state court judgments of convictions, defer to a state court ruling on the merits of any habeas claim (including questions of fact, law, and mixed questions of fact and law).

De novo review a la Schiavo? Fuggedaboudit!

As the Federalist Society helpfully explains:

"The new statutory standard clearly embraces a revised standard of federal court deference to state court findings on all claims, factual, legal or mixed -- the court shall not grant an application for the writ on "any claim that was adjudicated on the merits in State court proceedings," eliminating de novo review of legal and constitutional issues."

A culture of life indeed!

[creepy dude]

The Effective Death Penalty Act...

Hey maybe Michael Schiavo is a Republican?

[Cecil Turner]

"A culture of life indeed!"

Yeah, those poor murderers (with special circumstances) just can't get a fair shake. And their minimal opportunities for legal review stands in stark contrast to the Schiavo case . . . or does it?

And that whole lethal injection thing is so inhumane! (Though perhaps not when compared to death by dehydration?)

[TexasToast]

Yeah, those poor murderers (with special circumstances) just can't get a fair shake.

"How many more cases of wrongful conviction have to occur, before we can all agree, that this system in Illinois is broken," he said.

Murderers?

[Cecil Turner]

"How many more cases of wrongful conviction have to occur, before we can all agree, that this system in Illinois is broken," he said.

Wrongful convictions happen? NO! Of course, if they didn't, I'd wonder why we bother to have an appeals process.

"Murderers?"

Are you suggesting they don't exist?

[Jamie]

"Small government" isn't a conservative virtue simply because of size... It's a virtue only if gov't isn't taking on powers to which it's not entitled by our founding documents. Am I misreading the conservative psyche here? That's the way I've always heard it explicated: "small" as shorthand for "appropriate," with "appropriateness" determined by originalist means rather than by "evolving standards." Thus, ensuring citizens' rights to LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness would be smack in the purview of the Feds.

As for comparisons between Terri Schiavo's right to due process and that of convicted murderers... for heaven's sake. How is it that the distinction continues to elude some - that Terri wasn't on trial, yet somehow she finds herself facing the death penalty anyway?

Restating what I've said before: if she'd had an advance directive, even a holographic one, I'd be saddened but satisfied. If the witnesses saying she'd want to die had either stepped forward MUCH sooner or NOT been her by-then-adulterous husband and his relatives, I'd be saddened but willing to accept Greer's finding. In the absence of these factors... and adding in Schiavo's tendency to seek out lawyers and doctors who openly embrace the "right-to-die" stance - not even "right to privacy" but "right to DIE" - I'm just saddened.

Of course I know he'd find advocates who would support his point of view. Of course. But should the ease of finding such people not create a - pardon me for borrowing a phrase - "chilling effect" in anyone who considers him/herself on the side of the vulnerable?

[creepy dude]

CT-please-you're too smart to be so obtuse.

The simple deal is that the very same Florida court system that most Republicans (and more than a few Dems) claimed failed Mrs. Schiavo is the very same court system that determines death penalty cases (yes-there's a jury but judges issues many rulings all throughout a death penalty case-including what the jury gets to hear).

So when it comes to death penalty convictions the Republicans have passed laws saying the feds must defer to the state courts. With the Schiavo case-suddenly those same courts are no longer trustworthy, and the feds were instructed to NOT defer to those courts.

Now that's fine. I actually have no problem with the Schiavo legislation. But don't pretty it up with this pious "err on the side of life" bullshit when its' a proven fact that innocent people have been sentenced to death, yet you're comfortable severely curtailing their appeal rights to make the death penalty more "effective".

Just like we can't be "sure" if Mrs. Schiavo is really PVS, how can we be "sure" a man is really guilty until all appeals are exhausted (including de novo appeal at the federal level,i.e. the exact right they gave Mrs. Schiavo but denied to innocent men on Illinois' death row).

Some of us, e.g. the Pope, really do want to err on the side of life, including even for those convicted of heinous crimes. It's not like hell is going anywhere.

[creepy dude]

Here's what I'm talking about.

K Lo just posted a prayer on the Corner:

"...Let us now, even in the depths of sorrow, rededicate ourselves to our ancient creed, affirming that every human being, as a creature fashioned in the divine image, possesses a profound, inherent, and equal worth and dignity--a worth and dignity that it is the high duty of the officers and institutions of constitutional republican government to respect and defend."

I agree 100%.

Now here's the Republican version:

"...Let us now, even in the depths of sorrow, rededicate ourselves to our ancient creed, affirming that every human being (WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THOSE CONVICTED OF A CAPITAL OFFENSE IN A STATE COURT), as a creature fashioned in the divine image, possesses a profound, inherent, and equal worth and dignity (ALTHOUGH SAID WORTH AND DIGNITY SHALL BE NO BAR TO EXECUTION)--a worth and dignity that it is the high duty of the officers and institutions of constitutional republican government to respect and defend (WITH DUE DEFERENCE GIVEN TO THE FINDING OF THE STATE COURT).

[Cecil Turner]

"The simple deal is that the very same Florida court system that most Republicans (and more than a few Dems) claimed failed Mrs. Schiavo is the very same court system that determines death penalty cases (yes-there's a jury but judges issues many rulings all throughout a death penalty case-including what the jury gets to hear)."

The same court system that's required by the federal government (Bill of Rights) to provide a jury trial in the case of a criminal . . . and now required to have a unanimous 12-person determination that death is the proper verdict . . . with an automatic appeals process, including one to the Supreme Court. What do you think the odds are of finding a jury who would unanimously disregard the parents' concerns in the Schiavo case? And again, a sentence pronounced on an innocent that would absolutely not be tolerated if it were given to a heinous mass-murderer.

I don't think bringing capital punishment into this helps your argument. In fact, I think it highlights the dubious procedural process in the Schiavo case.

"Some of us, e.g. the Pope, really do want to err on the side of life, including even for those convicted of heinous crimes. It's not like hell is going anywhere."

But you're okay with imprisoning an innocent man for life? Personally I'm much more interested in tightening up the system to render more accurate verdicts. Like most Americans, I have little problem with a properly applied death penalty, in appropriate cases.

[TM]

It's not like hell is going anywhere.

Good point. However, my quick take is that this Schiavo case is a once a decade thing (Quinlan, Cruzan, Schiavo), whereas inventing/invoking Federal obstacles to the death penalty had become de rigeur.

Hence, it is not a great comparison.

And plenty of pro-lifers also support the death penalty (although the Catholic Church may cease to be an example of that).

[creepy dude]

"What do you think the odds are of finding a jury who would unanimously disregard the parents' concerns in the Schiavo case?"

Pretty damn good actually. Have you seen the polls? As further proof, Mrs. Schiavo just died. Congress did not come back into session after being rebuffed by the Courts the first time. Why was that? Hint: Popular opinion was against their initial action.

"Most Americans" apparently don't have a problem with Ms. Schiavo's feeding tube being withdrawn.
As you say "most Americans" don't mind the death penalty.

As my argument is there is no "culture of life" in this country, I rest my case.

[creepy dude]

Furthermore, I contend that support for the death penalty has a corrosive impact on support for all life in general, including Mrs. Schiavo's.

Letting the state put people to death is just letting the camel's nose in the tent.

In 1996 we had the Effective Death Penalty Act.

In 20__? we'll have the Effective Euthanasia Act.

[creepy dude's evil friend]

"But you're okay with imprisoning an innocent man for life?"

Kind of...I think people convicted of capital offenses should be strapped to a hospice bed, hooked up to a feeding tube, and forced to lie there immobilized until they die of natural causes no matter how many decades it takes!

And don't dare tell me that's torture...

[Cecil Turner]

"Pretty damn good actually. Have you seen the polls? As further proof, Mrs. Schiavo just died."

Some of us would prefer to test that hypothesis by providing at least as many procedural safeguards to helpless innocents as we do to convicted murderers. And Mrs Schiavo dying without benefit of a jury does not support your case.

"As my argument is there is no "culture of life" in this country, I rest my case."

Sorry, I don't see how punishing those who take life is inconsistent with a "culture of life." (Nor, for that matter, does it make a lot of sense to use statements of a Republican governor opposed to the death penalty to vilify all Republicans who support it.) Color me unconvinced.

[charles nickalopoulos]

Why did George Greer risk his career to get involved in
making sure someone is dead?
Was Michael Schiavo black-mailing him or something?
This whole thing gets stranger and stranger.
George Greer is hiding under police protection.
Michael is hiding ,also under police protection.
George Felos appears under the influence of some kind
of drug, or somethimg.
I don't know what is going on ,does anyone?

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