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September 10, 2005

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boris

I notice that CNN reported the Red Cross story only after they had an excuse for the hold up.

Sure seems like the mainstream media is dribbling out the facts only when they can cover for their political fellow travelers.

Barry Dauphin

Why didn't Kathleen "Blistering" Blanco accept the Feds offer on the Friday night before the storm to ask them into the game? Oh, right, she was worried about people playing politics with disaster relief. Now who would do such a thing?

Seven Machos

Looks like the Times has pulled out all the stops to blame Bush -- who, no doubt, LIED!!! -- for the hurricane.

Conservatives should cheer this. It's the Left goofily overplaying its hand. Again. It would be much worse if some smart liberal started making some sense by speading the blame around. This could be Hillary's Sister Souljah Moment, calling out Blanco and the mayor of New Orleans for not being better prepared in the first place.

Instead, it's another "news analysis" playing fast and loose with the facts, and simply ignoring the rows and rows of school buses and some other important but inconvenient facts that don't fit the Blame Bush meta-narrative.

J_Crater

I don't know about Louisiana, but in Pennsylvania the state runs the school systems by state constitutional mandate.

Why can't the Governor of a state that has schools find any school buses ? Why must a Governor go off to the feds for something that she should have been able to muster herself.

Or is there no schools in Louisiana ?

ordi

I may be wrong but wasn't it the US Military Helicopters that finally got most the people out of the Superdome and the convention center? I recall watching Geraldo almost pissing his pants as the US military Copters were flying in. He said, "The Cavalry is here!" AM I crazy?

Jim E.

"Why didn't Kathleen 'Blistering' Blanco accept the Feds offer on the Friday night before the storm?"

Do you have a link to this? From what I've read, the Bush administration only offered to take over on the Friday night AFTER the storm had already hit. I'd like to read about the pre-storm offer of help, though.

boris

Bush administration only offered to take over on the Friday night AFTER

You were ok without the only.

Bushed called Blanco and Nagin about evac before. Says Blanco.

Bush had a face to face with Blanco on friday after where she took 24 hours to decide against two W proposals. Says Nagin.

Other than that I haven't seen squat other than stuff like clashes behind the scenes between the Blanco and the feds from about Wed on. So what do you suppose they were clashing about ?

My guess is something like this:

Blanco: I need helicopters, troops and resources

Feds: Ok you need to turn over control of the LA National Guard before we can move

Blanco: Why?

Feds: Federal military cannot defend or engage US citizens without embedded Nation Guard operating with your authority under our command.

Blanco: The LA National Guard is mine, you can't have them. Helicopters, troops and resources right now ! They have my permission to shoot anybody they want.

Feds: It doesn't work that way. Everyone involved would be subject to prosecution.

Blanco: So ??? Who cares about that? Helicopters, troops and resources right now or there'll be dire political consequences !

Jim E.

boris,
Until I'm presented evidence showing otherwise, I'll keep the "only" in my sentence, thank you very much.

In any case, your reply didn't even negate my sentence, since you agree Bush supposedly wanted to "take over" only 4 days after Katrina hit land.

boris

The point is your only is an assertion based on zero evidence that is not supported by either fact or logic. It is essentially an unfounded claim that the subject was not discussed before.

On the other hand we do have reports that discussions were occurring throughout the week and that the subject was the federalization of the LANG. What's missing from the reports I've seen is details other than Blanco refusing, and specific times.

You're the one with the extrordinary claim, so any burden of evidence is with you.

boris

NY Times

Officials in Louisiana agree that the governor would not have given up control over National Guard troops in her state as would have been required to send large numbers of active-duty soldiers into the area. But they also say they were desperate and would have welcomed assistance by active-duty soldiers.

"I need everything you have got," Governor Blanco said she told Mr. Bush last Tuesday, when New Orleans flooded. In an interview, she acknowledged that she did not specify what sorts of soldiers. "Nobody told me that I had to request that. I thought that I had requested everything they had," she said. "We were living in a war zone by then."

It's not explicit enough to determine what actually happened, but it's more than enough to bust your only.

KarenT

Well, when the going gets tough, Blanco gets mad, I guess. If she were calmer, maybe she would have realized before THURSDAY that she had to sign an order to release Louisiana school buses outside New Orleans for use in the evacuation (see the BBC report linked in a post below).

The state's emergency evacuation plan called for city and school buses to be used for evacuation. Did anyone there in the state's Emergency Center have a copy of the exceedingly expensive (in federal funds already spent) evacuation plan? Do you think it mentioned how the state planned to authorize mobilization of school buses for evacuation?

How long do you think it was before anyone in the Emergency Center DARED to tell the "blistering mad" Governor Blanco that she was in charge of legally releasing school buses for use in evacuations?

She could have put some buses on the Gretna side of the bridge from New Orleans, for starters, to whisk folks away before they entered the already-evacuated suburb. Then Democrat lawmen wouldn't have been charged with racism by apparent socialists from San Francisco for turning folks back into New Orleans in a very harsh manner. And she could have given Mayor Nagin some cover for letting the NO buses become inoperable if she had brought in buses from other cities soon after NO was flooded.

Barry Dauphin

my bad, Jim E.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301680.html

Refers to Friday Sept 2
"Behind the scenes, a power struggle emerged, as federal officials tried to wrest authority from Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D). Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state's emergency operations center said Saturday.

The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law. Some officials in the state suspected a political motive behind the request. "Quite frankly, if they'd been able to pull off taking it away from the locals, they then could have blamed everything on the locals," said the source, who does not have the authority to speak publicly."

refers to Saturday Aug 27
http://www.nola.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1125213007249320.xml?nola

"President Bush declared a state of emergency in Louisiana, authorizing federal emergency management officials to release federal aid and coordinate disaster relief efforts.

By mid-afternoon, officials in Plaquemines, St. Bernard, St. Charles, Lafourche, Terrebonne and Jefferson parishes had called for voluntary or mandatory evacuations.

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin followed at 5 p.m., issuing a voluntary evacuation.

Nagin said late Saturday that he's having his legal staff look into whether he can order a mandatory evacuation of the city, a step he's been hesitant to do because of potential liability on the part of the city for closing hotels and other businesses."


refers to Sunday Aug 28
http://www.nola.com/newsflash/louisiana/index.ssf?base/news-18/1125239940201382.xml&storylist=louisiana

"The mayor called the order unprecedented and said anyone who could leave the city should. He exempted hotels from the evacuation order because airlines had already cancelled all flights.

Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding."

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:kCQXS8zpG28J:www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.politics02sep02,0,2317079.story+pentagon+katrina+pre-position&hl=en&client=safari

"Yesterday, McClellan defended Bush's handling of the disaster, giving reporters a litany of the measures he said the president and top officials took to prepare before Katrina hit. The steps included Bush's disaster declarations over the weekend for Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi, which enabled the Federal Emergency Management Agency to "pre-position" relief resources."

http://www.brendanloy.com/page2.html

"New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin said he may call for the first-ever mandatory evacuation in city history after talking with the head of the Hurricane Center who said a storm surge of 20-25 feet could be expected with major hurricane Katrina.

Nagin said he would consider ordering evacuations by Sunday morning and may employ buses and trains to help get people out of the city.

In an interview on Eyewitness News, Nagin said his Saturday night dinner was interrupted by an urgent call from Governor Kathleen Blanco who asked Nagin to call the Hurricane Center.

Nagin said the Hurricane Center Chief told the mayor that if it was possible at all, he should order an evacuation due to winds that could reach 145 miles per hour sustained and 170 mile per hour gusts.

Nagin said he would put his wife and family on a plane and he urged everyone to do anything they could to get out.

"All models say this storm will land right on top of New Orleans," he said.

Nagin said he would call churches and urge them to have their congregations adopt seniors or someone who doesn't have transportation and get them out.

"I don't want to wake up one day and not have done all I could do with a catastrophe on top of us."

kim

Good Morning, Mayor. There's a grey hound of hell waiting for you, Governor. El Presidente, how are you supposed to lead ungovernable people?
==================================================

Jim E.

Declaring a disaster and advising people to evacuate aren't the same as the Feds "offering to take over." The Feds offer to "take over" only happened on the Friday AFTER the storm hit, as Barry's diligent post shows.

kim

Some would like to portray an 'ultimatum' from Bush to Blanco before the storm. It's not an ultimatum when you have 24 hours to respond and are allowed to say no. Then its a penultimatum-ohnevermindum.

She freaks out about busses to cover her own breakdown, and the stupid(yeah, that is the problem) MSM plays it for all its worth.
==================================================

Steven J.

"Brownie, you're doing a heckuva job."

The only question now is:

Impeach or Assassinate?

Steven J.

It's the Left goofily overplaying its hand.

You can't overplay this:

"Brownie, you're doing a heckuva job."

kim

Do me a favor, SJ, go find Creepy Dude.
========================================

Davis

The Mayor just told Tim Russert that there were no drivers for the buses. There were thousands of people already in the Superdome, but nobody who could drive a bus? They can't blame Brown for that.

kim

I said that a long time ago. Most of the drivers probably evacuated. Were they the only ones with keys? How easy is it to break bus windows(more or less than breaking out through your roof)? Could the busses be hotwired or were there anti-theft devices? Many questions about busses.
==============================================

madawaskan

Arguing the Bus Befuddle-only lends credibility to the Blame Game.

Engage in the Blame Game-and what the Conservatives end up doing is playing on the Democrats' home turf.

Get off it. It isn't worth rewarding a three year olds temper tandrums-it doesn't get much accomplished except to reward the tot's behaviour and encourages him to do it again.

The Federalism argument-again a waste of time. Most of the general public doesn't know the difference between a democracy and a Constitutional Republic and NOW is not the time to educate them-it ends up looking like petty excuses- which in actuality they are.

The US military is a federal agency-it did not have any assets in the area except for in Biloxi-and the military got busy doing the right thing and preserved the assets by getting them out of there -so that they could be used later. The military by nature not being local -also had a difficult time getting into the area-

This argument is made inanely by the historian David Brinkley {during his C-Span interview}-when in one breath he bragged about his superior knowledge of being a longtime local-that being the only reason he could dodge all the obstacles of the fallen trees and downed live power lines-and the fact that he was an idiot who didn't value his family enough and risked them-{two children under the age of five!} so that he egotistically could -witness history- and ride it out!

Next breath he whines about the lack of a Federal presence to keep the richer Parish of Jefferson from stealing supplies being sent in from the west-from poorer parishes.

The military valued its assets more than Brinkley his own children-and got them the hell out of there. The military did not have his admitted "local" expertise-and might have taken a little longer to get into the area-or simply given Brinkley's displayed lack of judgement-acted more prudently- Brinkley can't realize that the obstacles that impeded his evacuation are the very same ones that kept the bemoaned missing Federal presence out? Know that they are talking about the military-which the MSM pathologically hates. It's inactors hating the doers-nothing more.


Federalism-Is not the reason the military response was slowed -the military was slowed by Mother Nature-and nothing less.

President Bush invoking or not invoking the Insurrection Act-is a moot point-it would NOT have made a difference.

The primary duty, the social contract of a government with its people is derived from- and a government earns its legitimacy by its ability to protect itself and its citizens.

The Federalism argument is going to send Republicans down a thorny road.

Federalism is not something that you adhere to at all costs-a government must have some flexibility and responsiveness in order to survive.

IN the face of the disaster of the Century-the media should have dropped their cameras once in awhile to use their extremely valuable assets to help out-

Journalistic values (oxymoron?) be damned.

And Federalism-give me a break-paper doesn't protect people -people do.

On the anniversary of 9/11 realize at least this much-

Federalism is not a religion that radicals must zealously adhere to-it is just an ideal that we make an effort to strive towards- but in the wake of Katrina?

Federalism be Damned.

boris

The Feds offer to "take over" only happened on the Friday AFTER

What part of last Tuesday did you not understand? Did you miss the phrase would not have given up control over National Guard troops too ???

Ok, I get it 2 plus 2 = WTF

... on your planet.

JorgXMckie

Well, perhaps a really good investigation after the fact will discover how good a job Brown did. I fundamentally think putting lawyers in charge of anything that might need to be quickly is a big mistake. On the other hand he seems to be as fully qualified as that Arkansas state trooper Clinton put in charge. I think before that he was in charge of bimbo recruiting.

And Jim E. is simply one of those leftists who regards law as a club to use on his enemies or something to be ignored if it gets in his way. Had Bush declared an "insurrection" (which, despite how bad it got in New Orleans certainly did not appear to be the case) and taken over, Jim E would now be whining about fascists and "illegal" power grabs. I hope that the average citizen has better sense, but I guess we'll have to wait for the next election to see, won't we?

I truly thing the most disgusting part of this whole thing is not the 'politics' being played ("Politics ain't beanbag." Tip O'Neill) but the fact that the left only seems to see it that way and to be totally uninterested in actually doing anything that might help. Bush is going to be President until January 20, 2009. Learn to live with it. (Well, unless the village idiot above doesn't get picked up by the Secret Service and make good on his threat.)

David [.net]

By Sunday night there was no traffic in New Orleans. The city controlled buses (which included privately owned buses under the declared emergency, and there are many in NOLA) could have been parked on the high ground near the river. With full tanks.

However, since the worst case would have flooded everything, driving them out full would have been more appropriate of course. The causeway was not under contraflow while I-10 was; the southbound span could have been given a bus lane.

I'm smelling liability/insurance/union issues here.

Syl

I doubt if the schoolbusses had enough gas to get to Houston.

FEMA arranged for most of the busses from all over the place. It takes time to get the drivers, get them gassed up, plan the route into NO, and actually, you know, get there, over roads covered with debris and detours around destroyed bridges.

Blanco gave the evacuatation order for the Superdome on Tuesday. The busses were all there by Friday. 72 hours. Imagine that. The expected minimum time.

And this points up something to me. Many are arguing that FEMA should take charge and move resources around instead of waiting for the locals to tell FEMA what they need and where it should go. How the heck is FEMA supposed to know what each local area needs?

It might work when the area of devastation is small, but with 90,000 square miles of infrastructure damage it's impossible.

The local agencies absolutely must be on top of things for their own areas. But FEMA absolutely has to have a clear chain of command for the locals to contact. I think FEMA failed on that score.

Jaycee

About the buses - has anyone done the Math? A schoolbus seats 55 children max. Given the size of adults probably 50 would have been capacity. 500 times 50 equals 25,000. So there would still be a lot of folks left behind.

boris

The mayor and the gov felt safe in Baton Rouge.

How many trips could be made to Baton Rouge with 500 buses in 72 hours ???

Put the leftovers in the Superdome if any.

We now know that the Superdome initially had supplies and Guard, just not enough when the civil disorder started and the Guard were pulled away. If there was nobody left to cause or defend from the disorder, that wouldn't have happened, and the Red Cross would have been available immediately after the storm.

David [.net]

"500 times 50 equals 25,000"

Times 4 trips and you're done. 80% evacuated themselves, and the remaining 20% are on high ground by Sunday night. At that's assuming the conservative number of 500 buses. Since by Saturday night the worst case was considered likely, people standing on the buses would have been appropriate. Red Cross was prepared to shelter people outside NO, but not at all within.

3 hour roundtrip to Baton Rouge, or even only Gonzales. Evacuation of Orleans Parish started Saturday afternoon; contraflow at 4pm.

George

If the mayor's buses were to be used, a battalion of heroes were needed to operate them. But in deadly situations, heroes are always in short supply. Has anyone looked into the actual circumstances of the operators assigned to the N.O. buses? Did they fear for their lives? Had they evacuated?

kim

Brinkley. Didn't he tell us to go ask Kerry when the going got rough? Now it's go ask Bush? Maybe he should look in the mirror for some of the cause of the fixes he gets in.
===============================================

Joshua Sharf

Baton Rouge is only about 80 miles from New Orleans. Worst-case scenario by Sunday, given traffic jams and the fact that fully-loaded busses don't go all that fast, that's maybe a 3-hour drive. There are still logistical issues of 500 buses navigating streets, not creating traffic jams on their own, dispersion of drop-off points, and so on. If we assume a total round-trip time of 5 hours, which is very high, and a total capacity of 20,000 per trip, which is probably low, it's still not unreasonable to assume they could have done the job in 24 hours.

Jim E.

"What part of last Tuesday did you not understand?"

Um, maybe I should type slower for boris.

I was responding to an earlier post by Barry in which Barry made two claims. Barry claimed:
#1 - the Bush administration offered to "take over" on the Friday BEFORE the storm hit.

and

#2 - Blanco did not accept -- again, this is PRIOR to the storm hitting -- the offer described in #1

I have not seen evidence for #1 or #2. "Last Tuesday" -- Tuesday also being AFTER the storm hit, by the way -- is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

Try again.

David [.net]

Elephant in the room not getting much notice: most of those who stayed behind did so by choice. It is amazing so many did evacuate. Earlier studies predicted far lower numbers. Even in the poorest neighborhoods there are a lot of ruined cars underwater. Coast Guard pulled a lot of people off roofs in middle income neighborhoods.

Joshua Sharf

George, there were, at that point, plenty of police on hand. Secondly, if the city had coordinated with the state, I'm sure 500 bus-driving Guardsmen could have been found. (Assuming you don't have to back up, driving a bus just isn't all that hard.)

Finally, the city plan calls for using these buses. One would assume that a competent city plan would also account for drivers?

Making the excuse of not having drivers is just making excuses.

Steve

I'm laughing at the inconsistent logic of the "blame Bush" argument.

If Bush is Hitler, why does the "reality-based" community want him to "take over" things, like the government of the state of Louisiana? Or is he now Napoleon, to them?

You'd think they'd prefer a "take-over" by an elected executive from their own party, like the onsite LA Governor Blanco (D), or New Orleans' Mayor Nagin (D). Problem is, it looks like neither was up to the job of implementing the established evacuation plan.

Governor Blanco (D) has revealed, as do many of the "Blame-Bush" crowd, an extraordinary ignorance about the relationship of the sovereign states to the federal government in our loose federal system. That's a 7th-grade lesson on American government. Right?

They do has schools in America, huh?
-Steve

kim

I have a problem with Brinkley and his 'witnessing history', too. He was one of the ones with the means to get out. Instead he chose to recklessly remain and witness his own self-destructive behaviour, then report it in a biased fashion.

Some historian. I see why he's Kerry's pick.

Well, now technically, he probably also engaged in child endangerment. Isn't an investigation mandatory on allegation? And he's confessed the details.
==================================================

kim

The state must have an interest in protecting the welfare of children from the actions of a parent recklessly and foolishly involving them in his intense need to inhale history. Or do I mean to say his intense need to inject some direct experience into his lifework's bloodstream.
===================================================

BOB

Now let me get this straight what you mouth breathers are saying. The reason FEMA couldn't get buses to get people out 3 days after the storm is because the New Orleans school buses were under water. So when the governor had to reminfd FEMA that there were peiople who needed to be evacuated the head of FEMA said something like ' Well, since a small part of the damage involved your buses we are not going to send any of our buses and were even going to ignore that there are other buses in existence for at least 3 days'. Does that sound like what you are thinking?

owl

Yes to David, only instead of 50 on a bus, the guy that stole one and drove to Houston took closer to 100 people.

Joshua, if some buses drove out of NO, the question is what were they doing 70 miles up the road? Why could not at least that many be heading to NO? BR has many buses. Why would the Feds have control of LA buses?

The entire time I watched our wonderful media, day after day, I never heard them ask real common sense questions.

Igster

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Google: New Orleans: on Google Map. Open the Katrina satellite image. Then pan to the west bank towards Algiers (15min) maybe, from the Superdome. What you will find is plenty of dry land..busses that are not underwater..hotels that could be used for shelter...dry freeway for staging and helicopter evac. The MSM will never show this.
Igster

boris

Try again.

Nice try. Too bad I actually remember what we were debating. Your ONLY.

Until I'm presented evidence showing otherwise, I'll keep the "only" in my sentence

So here's the thing, you claim W ONLY discussed federal takeover on Friday after. I claim it MUST have been discussed on Tuesday, I NEVER EFF'n CLAIMED IT HAPPENED ON FRIDAY BEFORE.

I presented EVIDENCE:

the governor would not have given up control over National Guard troops in her state
And:
Blanco said she told Mr. Bush last Tuesday, when New Orleans flooded

So your comment until I'm presented evidence was just rhetorical dishonesty to make it appear that the facts were somehow on your side (when in fact you're just blowing smoke).


boris

a battalion of heroes were needed to operate them

Misdirection.

Back on Friday and Saturday before the storm there was no flooding and no civil disorder. Regular old everyday bus drivers would have been just fine.

David [.net]

Nagin orders mandatory evacuation in face of Katrina

Nagin said the city could and would commandeer any property or vehicle it deemed necessary to provide safe shelter or transport for those in need.

Or not.

Jim E.

boris wrote: "I NEVER EFF'n CLAIMED IT HAPPENED ON FRIDAY BEFORE."

But Barry did, and I was responding to Barry. Chill, dude.

All you've done is show that Blanco requested "everything you have got" from Bush after the storm hit. (And we now know that Blanco had to leave several messages with the White House before anyone got back to her.) Apparently you think that evidence of Blanco *requesting* help AFTER the storm hit is somehow related to a false claim that Blanco *refused* a federal offer of help BEFORE the storm hit.

You're incomprehensible. But I'm sure you hear that all the time.

Joshua Sharf

I think owl misunderstood my point. I wasn't arguing that FEMA had control of any local or state buses. I was just running the numbers on how hard it would have been to get 100,000 people out of town, given what we know the City of NO had at its disposal.

Not very hard, as it turns out.

David [.net]

Maybe the operator of those municipal buses knows something:

http://www.norta.com/

They even have a forum.

Steven J.

Bureaucratic timidity. Bad phone lines. And a failure of imagination. Why the government was so slow to respond to catastrophe.
By Evan Thomas
Newsweek
Sept. 19, 2005 issue
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9287434/
The president's chief of staff, Andrew Card; his deputy chief of staff, Joe Hagin; his counselor, Dan Bartlett, and his spokesman, Scott McClellan, held a conference call to discuss the question of the president's early return and the delicate task of telling him. Hagin, it was decided, as senior aide on the ground, would do the deed.
The president did not growl this time. He had already decided to return to Washington and hold a meeting of his top advisers on the following day, Wednesday. This would give them a day to get back from their vacations and their staffs to work up some ideas about what to do in the aftermath of the storm. President Bush knew the storm and its consequences had been bad; but he didn't quite realize how bad.
The reality, say several aides who did not wish to be quoted because it might displease the president, did not really sink in until Thursday night. Some White House staffers were watching the evening news and thought the president needed to see the horrific reports coming out of New Orleans. Counselor Bartlett made up a DVD of the newscasts so Bush could see them in their entirety as he flew down to the Gulf Coast the next morning on Air Force One.

ManChild in the White House!

Steven J.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Google: New Orleans: on Google Map. Open the Katrina satellite image. Then pan to the west bank towards Algiers (15min) maybe, from the Superdome. What you will find is plenty of dry land..busses that are not underwater..hotels that could be used for shelter...dry freeway for staging and helicopter evac. The MSM will never show this.

They were prevented from going there, unless you were white.


Clyde

And even if they didn't have the regular bus drives, pretty much anyone with a commercial driver's license could have driven a school bus.

pst314

Steven J wrote: "The only question now is: Impeach or Assassinate?"

Yup, no liberal hysteria here. Move along, move along.

SteveMG

Tom:
A poster above advocated the assassination of Bush if he wasn't impeached.

He also earlier suggested 5 bullets in the head for Cheney.

Seems to me a banning is due.

Your call obviously, but I'd be disappointed if you decided not to.

Advocating murder on a blog is not something I came here to read.

Thanks.

Steve M. Galbraith

Otis Wildflower

But in deadly situations, heroes are always in short supply.

Maybe in NO, but definitely not in NYC.

Oh, and if some teenage kid can hotwire a school bus and drive it out of town, a local government with a modicum of competence could arrange for a 'reserve' driver scheme.

The blame on this is like the tale of the blind men describing the elephant. It's so big, there's so much, that everyone can find everything within it. Obviously, it's up to the lawyers and the voters in LA now. And I suppose there'll be a mild referendum in 2006 from this (as there was supposed to have been in 2002 for the 'stolen' election and 2004 for the 'illegal' Iraq war).

Can people just STFU and stop whining after 2006 as they didn't after 2002 and 2004?

Otis Wildflower

Advocating murder on a blog is not something I came here to read.

Actually, it's a federal crime as well. Hopefully typepad logs IPs and can help the Secret Service backtrack thru the logfiles, thru the internet provider, and get a fixed home address to send our beloved jackbooted thugs...

Jim E.

I, too, denounce the calls of assassination of Cheney and Bush (and anyone, for that matter). Even though he's apparently mocking what Ann Coulter has said/written about Clinton, it doesn't make it right, and it should stop.

kim

It is a crime but DU could keep a Secret Service far larger than the one we have busy just pursuing similar threats.
=============================================

SteveMG

"It is a crime but. . ."

Well, I don't think the individual should be arrested. After all, among other things, my tax dollars would have to pay for his room and board (so to speak).

Best to ignore him, but after his second post suggesting murder, I think it's time to pull the plug.

We can certainly have a rough and tumble debate, especially during difficult times, but there are limits, legal or otherwise (esp. considering the day).

Tom's call, of course.

SMG

boris

All you've done is show that Blanco requested "everything you have got"

she told Mr. Bush last Tuesday

(1) that would be president Bush

(2) if federal troops were mentioned in any conversation before Friday then ...

(3) giving up control over National Guard troops would need to be discussed

(4) in order to to send large numbers of active-duty [federal] soldiers into the area

(5) Therefore your claim that this happened ONLY on Friday would be false.

On planet Earth 2 plus 2 is evidence of 4

Syl

Jason van Steenwyk is a Florida Army National Guardsman who has been mobilized six times for hurricane relief. He notes that:

"The federal government pretty much met its standard time lines, but the volume of support provided during the 72-96 hour was unprecedented. The federal response here was faster than Hugo, faster than Andrew, faster than Iniki, faster than Francine and Jeanne."

For instance, it took five days for National Guard troops to arrive in strength on the scene in Homestead, Fla. after Hurricane Andrew hit in 2002. But after Katrina, there was a significant National Guard presence in the afflicted region in three.

Journalists who are long on opinions and short on knowledge have no idea what is involved in moving hundreds of tons of relief supplies into an area the size of England in which power lines are down, telecommunications are out, no gasoline is available, bridges are damaged, roads and airports are covered with debris, and apparently have little interest in finding out.

So they libel as a "national disgrace" the most monumental and successful disaster relief operation in world history.


http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05254/568876.stm

ME

David, Gee thanks for the Newsweek article.That changes everything. Now that the famous magazine has weighed in,[the one with the responsibility for all the deaths caused by Michael Isikoff's false item, for which Newsweek didn't fire him.] Also I vaguely remember something about them having to admit to poll-rigging. Yep,we can all rest easier now that we know they are on the job of presenting the TRUTH to the American people. Maybe you should use a more reliable source for your arguments. How about the NYT, or CNN or.... Oh well just forget it.

Seven Machos

I can't believe that loon lefties come here and suggests that the president be murdered for political reasons and expect to be taken seriously.

Stevie: You are not a serious person. Talk of imepeachment and murder are uncivil and stupid. People on the right here (and even most of the people on the left) are not going to sit here and say, "Yeah, Stevie's got a point. We have to get rid of the president by any means nececceary. What this country needs is a coup." Why are you wasting your own time and everyone else's? What are you hoping to gain? What kind of psychological satisfaction obtains from saying things that everyone who hears thinks is crazy?

Syl

Nothing is going to happen to Bush. Sorry. People are beginning to realize what REALLY happened.

The federal response here was faster than Hugo, faster than Andrew, faster than Iniki, faster than Francine and Jeanne.

That's the bottom line, folks.

If you're worried about a disaster in your town, then be sure to elect local officials who are prepared to take care of you. Choose. Very. Carefully.

BumperStickerist

All that's necessary to do is look at Louisiana State Governor Blanco's Executive Orders to see what she coulda/ shoulda done.

Blanco's current Order about buses. That order rescinded this one:

Bus-Related Order dated September 1st

Issued two days after the fact. And, rather than actually take buses, it orders that a list be made.

A list.

I know my Hollywood history - a list is life.


Louisiana Law quoted in her order:

R.S. 29:724(D)(4) provides that the governor, subject to any applicable requirements for compensation, may commandeer or utilize any private property if she finds it necessary to cope with the disaster or emergency

Gee.

richard mcenroe

Let's see:

The African-American Democratic mayor botches the evacuation and subjects thousands of his African-American citizens to death and suffering.

The white female Democratic governor bars relief agencies from the people who need them.

The white male Democratic Sheriff of Gretna turns back crowds of African-Americans trying to flee New Orleans...

See the common element here?

You want to commit a racist act in America? Vote for a Democrat.

owl

SMG you expect me to buy that Newsweek spin of "the delicate task of telling him"? Please. I reached for a hankie.

SteveMG

Owl:
"SMG you expect me to buy that Newsweek spin of "the delicate task of telling him"? Please. I reached for a hankie. "

Wrong Steve.

I'm the Steve who's against assassinating Bush and Cheney.

The other one appears to be for it.

Charming, isn't he?

SMG

Steven J.

Steven J wrote: "The only question now is: Impeach or Assassinate?"

Yup, no liberal hysteria here. Move along, move along.

Posted by: pst314

I was quoting Ann Coulter in 1998.


Steven J.

He also earlier suggested 5 bullets in the head for Cheney.

Again, I was riffing off John Gibson, FAUXNEWS

Steven J.

I, too, denounce the calls of assassination of Cheney and Bush (and anyone, for that matter). Even though he's apparently mocking what Ann Coulter has said/written about Clinton, it doesn't make it right, and it should stop.

Posted by: Jim E.

I didn't claim that it was morally correct. I was trying to point out the seditious hypocrisy of the Busheviks and the best way to do that is to throw their bile right back at them.

Steven J.

Now that the famous magazine has weighed in,[the one with the responsibility for all the deaths caused by Michael Isikoff's false item, for which Newsweek didn't fire him.]


There are no WMD or killer drones. Think we should fire Bush? If not, why not?

Steven J.

What kind of psychological satisfaction obtains from saying things that everyone who hears thinks is crazy?

Posted by: Seven Machos

Tell that to Rove, Limbaugh, Frist, DeLay, Hannity, Robertson, Falwell, Dobson and a few others, then we'll talk about MY behavior.

SteveMG

"Rove, Limbaugh, Frist, DeLay, Hannity, Robertson, Falwell, Dobson and a few others"

The old "more sinned against than sinner" excuse.

My 6-year old still tries a variance of it.

Doesn't work with him either. Eventually, like normal adults, he'll grow out of it.

Anyway, as you should notice, the above individuals aren't posting comments here.

You are.

SMG

Steven J.

Anyway, as you should notice, the above individuals aren't posting comments here.

Ah but their minions are.


kim

It's a riff not a crime, ha ha, as if the source were obvious and the threat identifiable to it.
==================================================

Barry Dauphin

The timeline will emerge, albeit slowly, over the months ahead. Here's a couple of pieces of this from WaPo:


Nagin said that by daybreak, he might have to order the first mandatory evacuation in New Orleans history, although his staff was still checking whether that would pose liability problems for the city. Nagin did not tell everyone to leave immediately, because the regional plan called for the suburbs to empty out first, but he did urge residents in particularly low-lying areas to "start moving -- right now, as a matter of fact." He said the Superdome would be open as a shelter of last resort, but essentially he told tourists stranded in the Big Easy that they were out of luck.

"The only thing I can say to them is I hope they have a hotel room, and it's a least on the third floor and up," Nagin said. "Unfortunately, unless they can rent a car to get out of town, which I doubt they can at this point, they're probably in the position of riding the storm out."

In fact, while the last regularly scheduled train out of town had left a few hours earlier, Amtrak had decided to run a "dead-head" train that evening to move equipment out of the city. It was headed for high ground in Macomb, Miss., and it had room for several hundred passengers. "We offered the city the opportunity to take evacuees out of harm's way," said Amtrak spokesman Cliff Black. "The city declined."

So the ghost train left New Orleans at 8:30 p.m., with no passengers on board.

That night, Mayfield picked up his phone again, to make sure Govs. Blanco and Barbour understood the potential for disaster. "I wanted to be able to go to sleep that night," he said. He told Barbour that Katrina had the potential to be a "Camille-like storm," referring to the August 1969 hurricane with 200-mph winds, and warned Blanco that this one would be a "big, big deal." Blanco was still unsure that Nagin fully understood, and urged Mayfield to call him personally.

"I told him, 'This is going to be a defining moment for a lot of people,' " Mayfield recalled.

Sunday, Aug. 28

'We sat here for five days waiting. Nothing!'

"We're facing the storm most of us have feared," Nagin told an early-morning news conference, the governor at his side. Katrina was now a Category 5 hurricane, set to make landfall overnight.

Minutes earlier, Blanco had been pulled out to take a call from the president, pressed into service by FEMA's Brown to urge a mandatory evacuation. Blanco told him that's just what the mayor would order.

Nagin also announced that the city had set up 10 refuges of last resort, and promised that public buses would pick up stragglers in a dozen locations to take them to the Superdome and other shelters.

But he never mentioned the numbers that had haunted experts for years, the estimated 100,000 city residents without their own transportation. And he never mentioned that the state's comprehensive disaster plan, written in 2000 and posted on a state Web site, called for buses to take people out of the city once the governor declared a state of emergency.

In reality, Nagin's advisers never intended to follow that plan -- and knew many residents would stay behind. "We always knew we did not have the means to evacuate the city," said Terry Ebbert, the sharp-tongued city director of emergency management.

At 10 a.m., in case there were still any doubters, the National Weather Service issued a hurricane warning with apocalyptic predictions: "Most of the area will be uninhabitable for weeks, perhaps longer . . . At least one-half of well-constructed homes will have roof and wall failure. . . . Water shortages will make human suffering incredible by modern standards."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/10/AR2005091001529_5.html


"By late Sunday, as millions of people in the Gulf region sought a safe place to hunker down, hundreds of shelter beds upstate lay empty. "We could have taken a lot more," said Joe Becker, senior vice president for preparedness and response at the Red Cross. "The problem was transportation." The New Orleans plan for public buses that would take people upstate was never implemented, and while many residents did manage to get out of town -- about 80 percent, the mayor said -- tens of thousands did not.

"Once a mandatory evacuation was ordered, those buses should have been leaving those parishes with those people on them," said Chip Johnson, chief of emergency operations in Avoyelles Parish, who helped put together the plan. In Avoyelles alone, there was room for at least 200 or 300 more on Sunday night before the storm, and more shelters could have opened if necessary. "I don't know why that didn't happen."

Barry  Dauphin

This is the WaPo timeline. It is incomplete but is a fairly good outline: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/custom/2005/09/11/CU2005091100067.html

richard mcenroe

I must make a correction:

The Sheriff of Gretna Parish is an ASIAN male Democrat... which if anything only reinforces my point about the one common failing...

David [.net]

...Sheriff of Gretna Parish...

Gretna is a city in Jefferson Parish. And Harry Lee, of Chinese ancestry, has been sherrif of the parish since the late 70s.

Seven Machos

So I'm not thinking freely but following Rush Limbaugh and Tom Delay. Stevie, however, parrots no one. Not Howard Dean. Not Hillary Clinton, or John Stewart, or Al Franken.

Why would Stevie bother arguing with people he thinks cannot freely change their mind and are bots parroting the thoughts of others. Arguing with people who are not able to change their minds is like arguing with a lightpost, or the air. Yet we are the crazy, stupid ones.

Is that right, Stevie? Tell me which one of the premises here is incorrect. You are so brilliant compared to me.

Steven J.

So I'm not thinking freely but following Rush Limbaugh and Tom Delay. Stevie, however, parrots no one. Not Howard Dean. Not Hillary Clinton, or John Stewart, or Al Franken.

Of the 4 you mention, Franken is the only one I listen to/read and even then that's only once in a while. I also take the time to check out his statements.

Steven J.

And he never mentioned that the state's comprehensive disaster plan, written in 2000 and posted on a state Web site, called for buses to take people out of the city once the governor declared a state of emergency.

This seems to be in error. The plan I think they are referring to envisioned putting people up in the city:

http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

ANNEX I: HURRICANES
Approximately 100,000 Citizens of New Orleans do not have means of personal transportation. Shelter assessment is an ongoing project of the Office of Emergency Preparedness through the Shelter Coordinator.

The following schools have been inspected and approved as Hurricane Evacuation Shelters for the City of New Orleans:

Laurel Elementary School
Walter S. Cohen High School
Medard Nelson Elementary School
Sarah T. Reed High School
Southern University Multi Purpose Center
Southern University New Science Building
O. Perry Walker High School
Albert Wicker Elementary School

David [.net]

http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

RTWT

Hint: The public buses in NOLA are run by the Regional Transit Authority (RTA or NORTA). They have tasks in this plan.

Harry Arthur

Patterico is linking to an excellent article by Michael Kinsley of that famous right wing conspiracy mouthpiece, the LA Times, titled The fetid aroma of hindsight.

Kinsley is certainly no water-carrier for Bush, yet his op ed is, IMHO an excellent and balanced treatment of this disaster and the ensuing criticism.

Harry Arthur

Another note. I don't have a link but I did read (somewhere) that one of the primary reasons the school buses weren't launched is that they are mostly driven by women. In this particular instance many felt that their security was compromised and therefore were unwilling to participate in a large scale evacuation effort.

Again, don't have a link but the story does pass the common sense test for me at least and explains the reluctance on the part of the mayor to exercise that aspect of the evacuation plan.

As Boris and Cecil have pointed out on another thread it may very well be that many of these local mistakes may have some level of reasoning behind them that made sense at the time but in hind sight don't look all that bright. Once we gain an appreciation for the true "fog of war" at the local level, it seems to me harder to assign blame, though still reason enough to track the decision process for improvements in future decision-making.

boris

local mistakes may have some level of reasoning behind them

Exactly so, but here's how the debate rages:

Left: Those poor miserable victims were left to rot without food and water in the pits of hell by RACIST EVIL BASTARD BUSH !!!

boris: Actually it was LA state officials who blocked delivery of food and water.

Left: HOW DARE YOU CALL THE POOR MISERABLE OVERWHELMEND STATE OFFICIALS RACIST EVIL BASTARDS !!!

Steven J.

HARRY -

That's interesting, thanx for posting it.

Steven J.

BORIS -

American Conservatives have been racists for
decades:

"WHY THE SOUTH MUST PREVAIL",
National Review 4 (August 24 1957),
p. 149:

The central question that emerges -- and it is not a parliamentary question or a question that is answered by merely consulting a catalogue of the rights of American citizens, born Equal -- is whether the White community in the South is entitled to take such measures as are necessary to prevail, politically and culturally, in areas where it does not predominate numerically? The sobering answer is Yes -- the White community is so entitled because, for the time being, it is the advanced race....

Seven Machos

The rest of the unsigned NR editorial, for those of you who would like to draw your own conclusions:

"It is not easy, and it is unpleasant, to adduce statistics evidencing the cultural superiority of White over Negro: but it is a fact that obtrudes, one that cannot be hidden by ever-so-busy egalitarians and anthropologists."

"National Review believes that the South's premises are correct. . . . It is more important for the community, anywhere in the world, to affirm and live by civilized standards, than to bow to the demands of the numerical majority."

"The South confronts one grave moral challenge. It must not exploit the fact of Negro backwardness to preserve the Negro as a servile class. . . . Let the South never permit itself to do this. So long as it is merely asserting the right to impose superior mores for whatever period it takes to effect a genuine cultural equality between the races, and so long as it does so by humane and charitable means, the South is in step with civilization, as is the Congress that permits it to function."

How this is racist and not a stark application of the basis of foundation of conservatism as "long, slow, measured change" toward moral good is beyond me. William F. Buckley is so ridiculously suoerior to you intellectually and culturally and morally, Stevie, that it's a joke.

And one more thing, the fact that the loon left is compelled to reduce this thing to race and race only shows the bankruptcy of their ideas. A leftist in 1957 would have reduced this to class, but that argument has been shot to smithereens. American blacks are slowly integrating into American society as full-fledged equals (and, in some cases, economic superiors). WHen that becomes the norm, the loony left will be totally, completely screwed.

What will you be able to reduce it all to when race and class are gone? Global warming? Male-pattern balding?

Steven J.

How this is racist and not a stark application of the basis of foundation of conservatism as "long, slow, measured change" toward moral good is beyond me.

The Civil War ended in 1865. Sometimes "long, slow" means don't do it at all.

Steven J.

the fact that the loon left is compelled to reduce this thing to race and race only shows the bankruptcy of their ideas.

We don't but we do recall Rehnquist trying to prevent Hispanics from voting in AZ, the Southern Baptist Convention supporting Jim Crow in the 60s, Nixon's Southern Strategy and Pat Buchanan's zenophobia.

Did I leave out Raygun going to Bob Jones University?

Seven Machos

So you are arguing that the failure of reconstruction and the institution of Jim Crow is the fault of REPUBLICANS and Buckley/Burkean conservatives. Stevie? Is that what you are arguing. Because, let's face it, that's what you are arguing. What political party backed emancipation? What party did not? What party filibustered the Civil Rights Act? What party blocked the schoolhouse door? What party fought the nomination of the first black Supreme Court justice? What party institutionalized Jim Crow across the South?

You know, one of the reasons I like to post here and read comments here so much is that there really is a limit on snarkiness. When I have been snarky, I have been shot down appropriately. When is the time that Stevie is going to start posting argument instead of snark?

Seven Machos

Rehnquist did not try to prevent anyone from voting anywhere. Stevie, you can't tell the difference between fact and misleading propaganda. That's a real problem for a guy who so obviously wants to be seen as smart and taken seriously.

kim

My 5th grade daughter just taught me that the word 'panic' is derived from name of the God of Nature.
====================================================

Steven J.

SEVEN -

The Dems who supported segregation became Republicans.
As LBJ said after the passage of the Civil Rights Act, (roughly) we've lost the South for a generation.


Seven Machos

LBJ. Now, there's a man who loved African-Americans.

Come on, Stevie. Try. Try to argue. Try to set forth something cogent. Try to set forth any argument that doesn't have as its basic premise, assumption, and conclusion: Democrats good, Republicans bad.

Harry Arthur

Steven, American Conservatives have been racists for
decades:

"WHY THE SOUTH MUST PREVAIL",
National Review 4 (August 24 1957),
p. 149:
Sorry, my friend but that's a bit of a stretch. I'm a conservative (surprise). In 1957 I was 8 years old (3rd grade). Was just mastering reading at the time and staying after school every single day for talking in class. Had to write "I will not talk in class" at least 8 million times over the years. Apparently learned nothing because I still can't keep quiet.

I went to school in central California with many children of various races including black children, asian children and hispanic children. Didn't know enough to be a racist then. We all got along fine on the playground, even though it was often pointed out to me that I can't jump and don't play a very good game of basketball. Was always somewhat of a geek. Football was a disaster.

I'd posit that "we've" grown a bit in the intervening 48 years. Certainly my waist line is larger. I'd like to think my sense of fairness and moral clarity has grown as well. I spent almost 25 years as an Army officer. I'd estimate that by far most soldiers are conservative in outlook, particularly the officer corps. We had serious racial problems in the early 70s but seem to have dealt with them over the years fairly effectively both in day-to-day relationships and in the promotion system.

I've said that I think a fair number of your arguments are at least fair - that I agree with some and disagree with others - but to offer this citation in a thread about buses in NO makes some point that unfortunately I'm not getting.

richard mcenroe

Thank you, David... and the last helf-dozen sheriffs have still all been Democrats. The rot goes deep.

Steve J. What do you say to the fact that African-Americans have started moving back south from the Democratic Northeast?

Tollhouse

They really planned to place 100,000 people in 8 school facilities? They had food and water for over 12,000 people per?

We must be missing something.

kim

In the 70's the Army was full of draftees, who mirrored the racial problems in society then. But I also remember roaming the Black Panther controlled streets of downtown Oakland with a brother from Philly and a white dude from Brooklyn, all of us in uniform, AWOL from Oakland Army Base and all three of us headed shortly to SE Asia.
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kim

Tollhouse, if you figure on 3 section grade schools with kindergarten it comes out to about 600 people per room. Maybe they had big gymnasiums or a cafeteria that wasn't both.
=================================================

Steven J.

HARRY -

I was just doing a little history of racism among the conservatives.

TOLL -

They were looking for more places.

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