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October 20, 2005

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TexasToast

You folks give being a "lawyer" to much credit.

Jim E.

Libby, Miller, and Rove all seem to have "forgotten" the most significant meetings/conversations. Clusters together, anyone?

 topsecretk9

JimE-

I take that back. I totally agree with you accessment of Matthew's.

SteveMG

Jim E:
"Libby, Miller, and Rove all seem to have "forgotten" the most significant meetings/conversations. Clusters together, anyone?"

Well, you're assuming that they were significant at the time.

There are obviously two major scenarios, it seems to me, with the possibility of a "mix" of the two being the real story.

Viz.:

(1) This whole controversy was indeed an orchestrated and well-devised attempt by Rove and Libby and others, under the direction of Cheney (bigwhig of the WHIGs), to retaliate against Wilson for critizing the W.H. re pre-war intelligence.

Everything was planned out. Plame's status was to be revealed, Wilson's mission was to be undermined, et cetera. Not only was this an attempt to discredit Wilson, but it was a signal to others in the CIA or intelligence community to watch their steps.

Or

(2) Libby and Rove were pushing back against CIA critics. However, they weren't coordinating things, didn't really have the full details on this obscure Wilson mission that the CIA didn't give much credence to. The evidence, at the time, on Wilson was pretty sketchy. The Agency didn't have much on him since his mission to Niger proved to be of almost no use.

Not only did they not know Wilson, they really didn't know much if anything about his wife. In some cases, the reporters covering the story had more information then they did. Not only then, were reporters culling them for info, they were getting info back from the reporters.

This appeared, on surface, to be perhaps another attempt by elements in the CIA to shift responsibility on the failure to find WMDs to the W.H., specifically the neocons in the V.P's office. Libby and Rove and the others were pushing back.

Miller's conversations with Libby were mostly Libby blowing off steam about the CIA pushing against the W.H. Nothing substantive was discussed and because of that neither party remembers the (innocuous) sessions.

If you're on the left, you go with version 1. If you're on the right, you go with version 2.


SMG

clarice

What kind of conspiracy depends on reporters calling YOU to ask? LOL Scenario 2 is the only one which comports with those facts we know and common sense.

SteveMG

Clarice:
"What kind of conspiracy depends on reporters calling YOU to ask?"

Well, the WHIG members knew ahead of time that Wilson was going to go public with his allegations re manipulation of pre-war intelligence.

Libby, Rove et al. got the information on him and his wife and waited for the press to call asking about his charges. Clearly, the press was going to ask for the W.H. to respond to Wilson's allegations.

Not to hard to imagine it working out that way.

Jim E.

SteveMG,
Even if one were to give the principles the benefit of the doubt and suggest that their conversations were deemed significant only in retrospect, it still smells. Remember, the Plame controversy ignited only a few weeks or days after these conversations. Once it made front page news, these folks, just out of human nature, would be recalling their relatively recent conversations, particularly a so-called reporter like Miller. It's not like they're been asked years later to recall an obscure event. They're being asked years later to recall conversations that they knew were significant within days and weeks of having them. And this is giving them the benefit of the doubt. If scenario #1 is true, they're all liars.

Given Miller's ideological sympathies with Libby and Co., her repeated reluctance to cooperate with FitzGerald, her "memory loss," and the statements of Abrams (who basically said Miller had one source, and one source only), it seems likely that Libby gave her the name. Might not be provable, but this whole charade is getting ridiculous.

And the idea that Libby was merely "blowing off steam" is not convincing. Why would Libby allow Miller to take notes? He was deliberately feeding her information about Wilson's wife two full weeks before Wilson's op-ed was published. Miller herself (if she can be believed on this point) wrote that she testified to the GJ that she remembered feeling bad that Novak scooped her. She could remember that disappointment, but we're supposed to think she couldn't remember the name that was in the center of the controversy? A name that she knew about and had written down?

I have no idea if this amounts to a well-planned conspiracy, but the various White House officials denying this really don't have much credibility left on this specific matter anymore.

SteveMG

Jim E:
Well, it appears we'll be finding out very soon - like tomorrow - whether it was Door #1 or Door #2.

Fasten your seat belts, it's going to be a bumpy flight.

SMG

clarice

How stupid do you have to be to not see how well orchestrated the Wilson attack of the layabout bureaucrats was? How blind do you have to be to see the roles the Kerry campaign and MSM played in this. How obtuse must you be to see that this is being played for all its worth because the Dems want to play to the anti-warniks in their midst without having been honest enough to vote against the war and its continuing appropriations?

VERY

 topsecretk9

Well, the WHIG members knew ahead of time that Wilson was going to go public with his allegations re manipulation of pre-war intelligence.

Not sure I agree with this The senate report illustrates this for us, "sent in regular white house mail" without all the super secret bells and whistles...flat foot was always the intention.

JakeJoliet

While we're going on about this interminable leaking brouhaha, I had a question:

Isn't it a felony to leak grand jury testimony?

I await the investigation of the Investigation!

Mr. MacPatrick, are you available?

TexasToast

Clarice

Well orchastrated?

Wilson?

You just convinced me that he wasn't a real good witness regarding the forged documents. A Democratic plot with this guy in the pilot seat?

Temper temper.

Jim E.

NY Times has a new story up. They don't mention a "target letter," but if Rove and Libby didn't receive one, they received something very similar.

clarice

I didn't say Wilson was bright, I said this campaign against the Administration was well-orchestrated. He was just a half baked player set out upon the stage.

Lesley

Bumpy flight, indeed, SteveMG.

I think I'm going to need an air sick bag.

cathyf
Even if one were to give the principles the benefit of the doubt and suggest that their conversations were deemed significant only in retrospect, it still smells. Remember, the Plame controversy ignited only a few weeks or days after these conversations. Once it made front page news, these folks, just out of human nature, would be recalling their relatively recent conversations,
Bullshit. Unless the person is autistic, the window of opportunity for remembering things is 15 minutes.

According to Miller's public statements, she only has her notes, and they say that either she told Cooper that Victoria Flame worked for the Bureau (FBI? Census?), or Cooper told her. Or maybe she just wondered about it and neither said anything. And that she can't tell from the notes and is just guessing. You don't bring criminal charges on guesses. (Unless you enjoy being a laughingstock, of course.)

cathy :-)

jerry

The bottom line is that JustOneMinute is a GOP zombie talking piece.

jj

"If what Wilson said was wrong, then just prove that, revealing his wifes name didn't make what he said true or untrue, did it?"

This has gotten to be surreal. Liberals are showing just how dense they really are in this whole waste of time.

At the time that Novak wrote his article, the White House was responding to pointed questioning as to how a partisan clown like Wilson could have been sent on such a sensitive mission. Novak wrote a column last summer clearly explaining that Plame was relevant to the story because she was the reason that Wilson was sent. Even if you refuse to acknowledge the reality that she recommended him for the trip, the only reason the CIA would even think of him was because his wife worked on the WMD proliferation for the agency.

Liberals are intent on pretending that Rove was being a vindictive meanie when he was responding to valid questions about the incompetence of sending this knucklehead to Africa. However, the punishment meme makes more sense in the elaborate fantasy land liberals have constructed for themselves.

PeteG60

SteveMG - If you read Wilson's original article it is easy to see how the reporters could have misunderstood on the issue whether or not Wilson saw the documents. Even in this discussion someone has referred to a P18 in a pdf document from which she infers that Wilson has seen the documents, yet the document says nothing of that sort.

Anyway the issue now is not Wilson, the issue now is Rove and Libby. I am not sure that it can be neatly characterized in the scenario 1 vs scenario 2 you outline. IMO - the mode that these guys worked on was to dish up dirt on any opponent be it true or false. Old habits die hard - only this time they ran foul of the law.

clarice

Pete, I said in the movie Wilson fudged his words on the docs but he certainly didn't in May,June,July or before the SSCI which discredited his claim about the docs.

As for Rove and Libby dishing out untrue dirt--Hmmpf..Wilson did. They didn't. Reread Miller's account of the June 23 meeting, everything he said about Wilson's lies was confirmed by the SSCI.

MJW

Will this turn off those infernal italics?

MJW

Looks like it's beyond my poor powers.

Cecil Turner

SteveMG - If you read Wilson's original article it is easy to see how the reporters could have misunderstood on the issue whether or not Wilson saw the documents.

Oh nonsense, Pete. The only possible way you can claim this is a misunderstanding is by ignoring Wilson's first three (anonymous) stories:

  • May 6 (Kristof) -- "that envoy reported to the C.I.A. and State Department that the information was unequivocally wrong and that the documents had been forged. "
  • June 12 (Pincus) -- "Among the envoy's conclusions was that the documents may have been forged because the 'dates were wrong and the names were wrong'"
  • June 13 (Kristof) -- "this senior envoy briefed the C.I.A. and State Department and reported that the documents were bogus, for two main reasons. First, the documents seemed phony on their face . . ."
All are explicit, and all are lies. Wilson admitted as much in his SSCI testimony:
The former ambassador said that he may have “misspoken” to the reporter when he said he concluded the documents were “forged.” He also said he may have become confused about his own recollection after the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) reported in March 2003 that the names and dates on the documents were not correct and may have thought he had seen the names himself. [emphasis added]
May have become confused about whether the names were wrong on documents he'd never seen? He seemed to figure it out by the time he published under his own name. No, it's obvious he made up that detail because the forgeries had been in the news, and it made a better story.

MJW

Please children, preview your posts if you use tags!

marky48

Depends on what you call "inconclusive." And if the implication is the is an active aquisitions program going on. There wasn't. They weren't seeking uranium for Niger. Wilson's report said this type of thing was "unlikely." Twist away buddy. You have no credibility save for your winged flock. Fly!

Jim E.

cathy wrote: "Bullshit. Unless the person is autistic, the window of opportunity for remembering things is 15 minutes."

The movie "Memento" was fiction. Most normal, healthy adults have much longer attention spans. How are you able to function? Sorry to hear that you can't remember your childhood, or what you had for breakfast this morning.

Jay Byrd

The bottom line is that the wingnut blather about Joe Wilson is irrelevant to the ongoing criminal investigation, and to the political legacy of an administration with a %37 approval rating, a House Majority Leader under arrest, a Senate Majority Leader under SEC investigation, and corruption and incompetence from top to bottom. You've got your slashed tax rates for the rich, your corporate tax rate heading toward zero, your institutionalized torture, your preemptive war, your anti-human Supreme Court for the next 30 or 40 years, and much else that you desire, but your rise to power will go down in the history books as a very dismal period in our history, and your souls, if you have any, will burn in hell if there is one.

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Wilson/Plame