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October 21, 2005

Comments

clarice

Dave, Sue, I do not recall that Starr had a website or Barnett whose report we will see within 60 days or anyone else. I think the CW on this is idiotic. The only other time I recall seeing this was I believe the 9/11 Commission where all official stuff was regularly posted. It may mean nomore than that more operations like this have grown to appreciate how much time answering inquiries and distributng public documents is saved by the simple expedient of launching a website.

macranger

Sue,

Over the years I've found it harder to nail jello to a tree than to figure out where a Grand Jury is going.

I have several contacts (one family member) within DOJ (long family line). No, I don't have deep dark secrets, I'll tell you this, I don't have exact details, but if Rove, Libby and others in the WH are worried, they aren't showing it. Forget the MSM 'scarey' accounts. They are far more worried about getting the Mier's nomination off the ground.

clarice

Mac. Joe Connason has already begun the attack on Fitz.
And if he brings no indictments I think it would be inappropriate for him to go into what testimony took place before the GJ and do more than issue simple statements of law--i.e. we found no violations of the Agee Act..He can then refer everyone to the website indicating no further information will be available from him or his staff.


Sue

Nothing would make me happier, Mac.

Jim E.

"Joe Connason has already begun the attack on Fitz."

Evidence?

macranger

Yeah, clarice, I read that today

It was comical. Yeah, it's would be a firestorm alright. But it wouldn't quell the left, they'll just keep on yaking and dreaming...

I don't think it will be all that inappropriate, after all the democrats already signaled last week that they think it isn't going their way by asking for Fitz to issue a full report (which he said no). Subequently, the MSM "indictments coming" stories started to ratch up.

It's so predictable.

 topsecretk9

I believe this is what Mac is referring to, but I think that Joe Connason is attacking two liberals that pooh poohed the investigation. The silliness of the column seems to be---the attack dogs are attacking Fitz---where there are clearly no attacks and this from a man who made it his life's work to vilify Ken Starr

http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2005/10/21/miller_times/index_np.html

clarice

Varifrank reviews Miller's early work on bio-chem warfare and says what I did months ago, it is unthinkable that she didn't know who Valerie Plame was..Here's an excerpt:

[quote]If you read this book, which is excellently sourced with very good footnotes and cross-referenced to other materials, you know that Ms. Miller indeed knows a great many people who work in around intelligence, weapons of mass destruction and in the civil service that stays around no matter the administration. So, if she doesn’t know the person directly, then she knows the people they work closely with. Close enough I would gather to get a question answered in a few minutes.

That being the case, how is it possible that with all the people she knew in Washington, in the White House, in the CIA in the military, that she didn’t know that Ambassador Wilson’s wife was in the CIA as well? It would not take very long to play a game of “six degrees of separation” with the people she has outlined in the book to come up with a direct link to Valerie Plame and Joseph Wilson.

Could Richard Clarke be the source she is really protecting and the whole Libby/Rove connection simply a smokescreen to cover another trail that would lead to a far more damaging connection? That is, a rogue CIA organization that wishes to protect its power and cover up its large scale mistakes in regards to Iraq and the middle east?

Remember, this organization is made up of the same set of guys who failed to predict the fall of the Soviet Union, and now here they were in 2002 with the country in the midst of the worst attack since Pearl Harbor without any clear answers as to "why". Oh, and it was Richard Clarke who was the one who supposedly lead the anti-terror teams during the 1990's. Now, don't go and give yourself a sprained arm giving yourself a pat on the back for that job, Mr. Clarke...

In addition, Joseph Wilson it must be remembered, was making the case that people like Miller were inventing facts or even over representing the dangers that were posed by Saddam. Its clear when you read this book that Judy Miller must’ve taken that idea as a direct attack on her reputation as a reporter.

So I ask you, based on this and other areas that Judy Miller reported and worked in for over 10 years, the extensive research into Weapons of Mass Destruction in the G.H.W. Bush, Clinton and the G.W. Bush administrations, how is it possible or even feasible for her to have not known who Valerie Plame was, given that her husband walked quiet literally through her crosshairs on the Niger case?


[/quote]http://varifrank.com/

He thinks Clarke was the CIA leak..Possible. He , too, was in "Uncovered"IIRC..and he is the guy who talked Rand Beers into leaving.

If he is not the leak, he and Beers are both good candidates for anonymous sources listed as former WH officials..LOL

clarice

Thanks, top, I was searching for where I'd read that..and yes, my recollection was a bit flawed but York made a good point in noting no one in the Administration has attacked Ftiz and the two reporters he charged with doing so didn;t, and in fact, only Conason attacked a prosecutor and he did it repeatedly--and that of course was Starr.

Jim E.

A "bit flawed" in your reading, clarice? That's being kind. Conosan did NOT attack Fitzgerald.

clarice

No, he projected by claiming the Administration was, when in fact he had attacked Starr round the clock. And he projected by saying that the Administration had obstructed Fitz when they've been completely cooperative as opposed to the Clinton administration Conasson regularly defended which stonewalled and obstruced Starr at every turn.

Reg Jones

TM isn't this Novak 8/1/05 column [below]extremely relevant to your point. I can't wait until Novak and Harlow take the stand. IF Novak's Harlow quotes are accurate Harlow is going to be a gold mine for the defense. Harlow is actually confirming that she worked at the CIA and apparently on the record [eg "The CIA... asked his wife to contact him."]

Novak 8/1/05:
"My column of July 14, 2003, asked why the CIA in 2002 sent Wilson.... All the subsequent furor was caused by three sentences in the sixth paragraph:

"Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction. Two senior administration officials told me that Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate the Italian report. The CIA [Harlow] says its counter-proliferation officials selected Wilson and asked his wife to contact him."

There never was any question of me talking about Mrs. Wilson "authorizing." I was told she "suggested" the mission, and that is what I asked Harlow. His denial was contradicted in July 2004 by a unanimous Senate Intelligence Committee report. The report said Wilson's wife "suggested his name for the trip." It cited an internal CIA memo from her saying "my husband has good relations" with officials in Niger and "lots of French contacts," adding they "could possibly shed light on this sort of activity." A State Department analyst told the committee that Mrs. Wilson "had the idea" of sending Wilson to Africa.

So, what was "wrong" with my column as Harlow claimed? There was nothing incorrect. He told the Post reporters he had "warned" me that if I "did write about it, her name should not be revealed." That is meaningless. Once it was determined that Wilson's wife suggested the mission, she could be identified as "Valerie Plame" by reading her husband's entry in "Who's Who in America."

Harlow said to the Post that he did not tell me Mrs. Wilson "was undercover because that was classified." What he did say was, as I reported in a previous column, "she probably never again would be given a foreign assignment but that exposure of her name might cause 'difficulties.'" According to CIA sources, she was brought home from foreign assignments in 1997, when Agency officials feared she had been "outed" by the traitor Aldrich Ames.

I have previously said that I never would have written those sentences if Bill Harlow, then CIA Director George Tenet or anybody else from the Agency had told me that Valerie Plame Wilson's disclosure would endanger herself or anybody."

 topsecretk9

Jeez, JimE...at least Clarice has the balls to admit to a mistake or attribution. Perhaps she was just being sarcastic...and why are so worried what an anonymous poster would say anyways????? Get off your rude high horse Jim E. otherwise quit being a bully.

Seven Machos

The worst part is that Jim E. will file away your mistake in a special file that he apparently has, and remind you of it constantly. He has a file on me. I'm not sure why he keeps a file on me instead of spending his life in useful ways. You meet all kinds on the Internet.

Seven Machos

To Andy: Let's say Plame was covert. She wasn't, but let's say she was. Which person working for the government took the first and most concrete step toward "outing" her? That person should be indicted.

That person is Joe Wilson IV.

 topsecretk9

SM and Clarice

I say that with all confidence, because that is precisely something we got into when he (MIS)characterized something Bob Bennett as saying about his brother Bill while on cnn...it took about 20 post for him to tell me I was humorless because I didn't catch his sarcasm AND chastised me for relying on what an anonymous poster said anyways.

 topsecretk9

Reg Jones has a point. One that is covert should have a responsible security that no matter what is happing their employer would protect them.

and the didn't in woefully incompetent manner, why does Harlow still have a job?

Jim E.

clarice,
Two points stand out:

1. You've misread some of the criticisms of Conosan's article made over at the Corner. You only had to read all of two paragraphs, but you apparently couldn't pull it off without comprehension errors.

2. You obviously didn't read (and still haven't read) the Conosan article you keep railing about. Nowhere does Conosan, as you incorrectly allege, argue that "the Administration had obstructed Fitz." The Corner folks didn't even allege this, so I'm afraid you'll have to take total responsibility for this mischaracterization.

How many mistakes can you make about one article? The pathetic part is that this is an article that you brought up out of the blue.

My advice: Try reading Conosan's article before criticizing him for things he never wrote. Actually, I'd recommend that advice on all matters, not just things related to Conosan.

P.S. It's true: topsecret really is humorless.

 topsecretk9

I just blame the merlot for that last post, responsible should be reasonable and other various typos, while sad, can still be figured out

clarice

Yes. I know someone on another Board like that, a person who I caught citing to a fake source. Oh dear.

Anyway, some interesting news. John Dean, a Wilson backer who played a role in the infamour MoveOn video "Uncovered" and who has written a bunch of drecky things for FindLaw on this case, says he predicts Fitz will indict no one. http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20051021.html

Of course, in doing so he makes unsubstantiated claims about Cheney..Once a creep always a creep. Still..

 topsecretk9

Jim E

just quit being a dick. You have very good points. No one disputes that.

Jim E.

"I know someone on another Board like that, a person who I caught citing to a fake source."

That's your defense when confronted about making stuff up out of thin air? Classy.

I have never cited a fake source.

Keith

Question: can a grand jury vote to indict someone against a prosecutors will, or does the grand jury generally follow the suggestion of the prosecutor?

For example, could Fitz say, "I'm do/do not want to indict" and the grand jury decide something else? Or does he have more control over the situation than that?

Who makes the final call?

 topsecretk9

Clarice

In response to Jim E's advice just tell him you were being sarcastic and he should lighten up. That should do the trick!

Seven Machos

Grand juries make the final call, but generally follow the prosecutor.

From a political standpoint, one of the reasons prosecutors USE grand juries is so they can wipe their hands of the decision in the first place. After all, a grand jury is not required for a prosecutor to act. But using one gives the prosecutor the ability to say, "we have to prosecute because the agent of the people, the grand jury, has so decided," or, "The agent of the people, the grand jury, has determined that this case will not be prosecuted."

Jim E.

topsecret,
I'll point out that clarice indirectly smeared me in her 9:12 post. For a guy (you) who is apparently so quickly outraged on behalf of others, why are you coming to HER defense? She's the one making stuff up, not me.

Keith

Thanks, Seven. I was just asking after reading O'Donnell's post on the Huffington Post where he goes through the make-up of the grand jury, which is mostly African-American women. He seems to be implying that this group would naturally be anti-Rove, and that they might be more inclined to indict him.

I was just wondering if that could happen even if Fitz said, "I think something might have been going on, but we don't have a strong enough case to prosecute."

Seven Machos

What about me, Jim? Didn't I indirectly criticize a portion of your reasoning last April?

Bill Arnold

The "she was perhaps a little bit compromised and therefore no significant damage was done" argument seems very weak; there is a qualitative difference between what TM is describing pre-Novak and the state of her cover post-Novak. Probably a 4 or 5 orders of magnitude difference due to the massive and continuing press publicity, enough to be fairly certain that anyone she ever worked with or contacted while covert is compromised, and probably compromise of some fraction of people they talked with or contacted, which was not the case pre-Novak.

Since the Plame-outing press coverage was (or appears to have been) deliberately arranged by the administration, there is a good intellectual case for deliberate damage. Perhaps it is not a good legal case; that remains for Fitzgerald & grand jury to decide.

Seven Machos

Keith -- I don't know if a grand jury can just start indicitng willy-nilly. The prosecutor probably has control over the decisions that are themselves to be made.

clarice

Jim..I didn't say YOU made up a cite. You did imply that I deliberately misstated Conason, I didn't.

Lighten up.

I misremembered what I read, went to check the original, when I returned top had found it and I admitted I'd misread it. This is a chat , not a duel to the death.

Someone makes a mistake I accept it and expect the same in return and hard driving and reliving these things is well..odd. I don't do it. And I give wide berth to people who do.

Jim E.

I thought you were a lawyer, Machos. "I don't know....probably...." Keith asked a pretty simple question. Lot's of vague mumbling from you.

Some lawyer.

Seven Machos

Bill Arnold suffers from Bush Derangement Syndrome. Primary symptom of patient: sees everything that happens as deliberately orchestrated by diabolical lackeys of (moronic) president). Note: patient even goes so far as to put "deliberately" in bold.

Please make a note of it.

macranger

Larry (liar, liar) O'Donnell plays the race card, then insults them "Does this seem like the kind of grand jury (is that "black" Larry?) that is going to think lying to an FBI agent or perjury is a serious crime--unless you work in the White House? I think they know the answer."

zzzzz, zzzzzz

pollyusa

"Unless, of course, these folks were foolish enough to give false statements, perjure themselves or suborn perjury, or commit obstruction of justice. If they were so stupid, Patrick Fitzgerald must stay and clean house."
John Dean 10/21/05

Dave S in VaBeach

Clarice, you misremembered something?! We'll have none of that. It's time for you to visit the grand jury, young lady. [Sarcasm, to be sure]

macranger

Clarice,

Remember. Never try to nail jello to a tree. Futility.

macranger

Which there is no evidence of.

Case closed. Is it lunch yet?

Seven Machos

You got me, Jim. I was clarifying an answer to Keith, trying to make sure he understood the scope of grand-jury-member power. You found me out, man.

Jot this down in your notebook for next August. I'm not sure what you have proven here, but I'm sure it's some good fodder for the profile of me that you keep.

Are you a stalker, Jim? Do you often find yourself the subject of restraint orders?

Jim E.

clarice,
After saying your recollection was a "bit flawed" you went back, re-read it, and then went on to further mischaracterize the Conasan article even more? Wow.

But hey, glad you didn't accuse me of lying after all.

Seven Machos,
The point is you DIDN'T clarify anything. You admitted that you don't know whether prosecutors have discretion with a grand jury that wants to indict. It's just strange that a self-professed lawyer wouldn't know the answer to a simple question.

macranger

Even so Clarice, Joe Conason article is flawed nontheless.

 topsecretk9

"smeared"

sorry Jim E, I doubt Clarice did anything remotely close to this. Lighten up is the operative. I will jump to her defense because she is an e friend, I respect her and she is the straightest shooter i have come across on comment threads. She didn't take 20 posts to ultimately say "Hey, I mis-inturpted something, OOPS my bad"...she came right out and did it, and really what she DID say was theoretically not unbelievable and far out.

Have a Merlot like me. I repeat, you make excellent points. nobody disputes that.

Dave S in VaBeach

Clarice, I find the alternative interpretation of the appearance of the special prosecutor’s new website that you offer to be encouraging. Until today I had thought it unlikely that Rove would be indicted; but then came Fitzgerald’s website. I’m actually not all that concerned about a potential Libby indictment since I believe the political ramifications on Bush would be slight and short lived. An indictment of Rove on the other hand could conceivably put a serious hurt on the administration.

Clarice, at this point do you think it more likely or less likely that Rove gets indicted?


Keith

Jim, Seven answered the question to my satisfaction, and I appreciated it. There is really no reason to start attacking him.

Seven Machos

No, Ji. You are just and idiot.

1. Grand juries decide whether to indict.

2. Grand juries usually follow the lead of the prosecutor.

I then mentioned that I am a little fuxxy on whether a grand jury can indict anyone for anything. Could I indict Fitzgerald, for example, or someone who had no nexus to anything involved? I suggest not, but I don't know.

Unlike you, Jimmer, I don't claim omniscience or think being wrong is a terrible pox, but I'm willing to bet that the six people who ever read this exchange would agree that I have gotten the better of this debate.

clarice

About runaway grand juries--they may exist in some states, but not under the Federal Rules where they operate under the control of the Prosecutor.

[quote]A "runaway" grand jury, loosely defined as a grand jury which resists the accusatory choices of a government prosecutor, has been virtually eliminated by modern criminal procedure. Today's "runaway" grand jury is in fact the common law grand jury of the past. Prior to the emergence of governmental prosecution as the standard model of American criminal justice, all grand juries were in fact "runaways," according to the definition of modern times; they operated as completely independent, self-directing bodies of inquisitors, with power to pursue unlawful conduct to its very source, including the government itself.[7]

Before the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure — which made independently-acting grand juries illegal for all practical purposes — grand juries were understood to have broad powers to operate at direct odds with both judges and prosecutors.[8] One recent criminal procedure treatise sums up the inherent inconsistency of the modern grand jury regime:

In theory, the grand jury is a body of independent citizens that can investigate any crime or government misdeed that comes to its attention. In practice, however, the grand jury is dependent upon the prosecutor to bring cases and gather evidence. Except in rare instances of a "runaway" grand jury investigation of issues that a prosecutor does not want investigated, the powers of the grand jury enhance the powers of the prosecutor.[9]

Thus, while the grand jury still exists as an institution — in a sterile, watered-down, and impotent form — its decisions are the mere reflection of the United States Justice Department.[10] In practice, the grand jury's every move is controlled by the prosecution, whom the grand jury simply does not know it is supposed to be pitted against.[11] (more)[/quote] http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/runaway.htm

macranger

There is nothing in Fitz's website that indicates anything, but it is a good sign that he has decided against recommending indictments.

Seven Machos

I stand by my comments above, even though they are grossly indecipherable because of so many typos.

clarice

Davs S I see nothing in the reports of thes tesimony which in my opinion would warrant an indictment against Rove.

(Or Libby for that matter.)

Rick Ballard

7M,

It would be entertaining to see an indictment dictated by a grand jury. Would they plug in "'cause we think so" when they got to the part about evidence? I wonder if any of the grand jury will succumb to the temptation of the limelight and become "anonymous former members". Maybe some more reporters can still make it to jail on this deal. That would be a nice ending.

Dave S in VaBeach

Macranger & Clarice, thanks. You two seem to know what you're talking about, and I trust your educated inducements more than anyone else I've read (here or elsewhere) on the subject. I sure hope you're right.

 topsecretk9

SM--Merlot makes one impervious to typos(typing and reading)...I thought your post was spot on.

clarice

Thank you, Dave. Mac has been watching this longer than I have, but I have been paying close attention.

Jamie

Does anyone besides me think that the CIA headquarters should be packed up and moved far away from the Washington beltway, home of politicians and reports, so they could focus on Intel.

Syl

macranger

"Harlow is/was simply full of crap. He didn't have to hang up and go and check out Plame's status - he could have found out by the computer on his desk."

Well, just as a point of information, not every computer accessible to a CIA person is going to have access to all data. Computers themselves have their own security clearances, so to speak.

So just because there was a computer right there on the desk, in view of the public possibly, doesn't mean a CIA employee's status could be accessed from it. In fact, it's probably not likely at all.

I still don't know if the fact Harlow didn't check Valery's status earlier was a mistake or something more sinister. But just because he didn't use the computer in front of him, does not necessarily mean anything.

Sean Jobs

If Harlow did not have a computer in front of him to check Plame's status then his comment to Novak should have been "No Comment". And if Harlow says "yes, she is an agent" then later he finds out she is "deep undercover" (hee hee) then he should report his conversation to his boss or Valerie's boss to ensure nothing is published *e.g. have Novak "incapacitated" so he doesn't speak or write for a while).

Syl

Sean

Oh, definitely. I'm not disputing that.

Charles Giacometti

The Rove apologists are ignoring a very simple fact. If you are a government official or contractor and are entrusted with classified information, you can not reveal it. Even if that same information is out in the open.

For example, let's say as a DOD employee I happen to know a classified fact about a certain weapons system, and that fact is reported in the press by some enterprising reporter. I am still obliged to maintain the secrecy of that fact. I still can't talk about it. I can't confirm it to be true or not true. My job is to shut my mouth and protect the classified information.

If Rove knew that Plame was considered a covert operative, his job was to shut up about that. If he didn't do that, he deserves to be punished.

windansea

DiGenova raises serious questions about the CIA role not only in the Wilson mission but in the referral to the Justice Department that culminated in the appointment of a special prosecutor. At this point in the media feeding frenzy over the story, the issue of how the investigation started has almost been completely lost. The answer is that it came from the CIA. Acting independently and with great secrecy, the CIA contacted the Justice Department with "concern" about articles in the press that included the "disclosure" of "the identity of an employee operating under cover." The CIA informed the Justice Department that the disclosure was "a possible violation of criminal law." This started the chain of events that is the subject of speculative news articles almost every day.

The CIA's version of its contacts with the Justice Department was contained in a 4-paragraph letter to Rep. John Conyers, ranking Democratic Member of the House Judiciary Committee. Conyers and other liberal Democrats had been clamoring for the probe.

DiGenova doubts that the CIA had a case to begin with. He says he would like to see what sworn information was provided to the Justice Department about the status of Wilson's CIA wife, Valerie Plame, and what "active measures" the CIA was taking to protect her identity. The implication is that her status was not classified or protected and that the agency simply used the stories about her identity to create the scandal that seems to occupy so much attention these days.

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?id=9146

hmmmm...seems to me a defense lawyer could destroy the "active measures" requirement by playing back the two conversations Novak had with Harlow

also very curious that in the first call Harlow told Novak that Plame had nothing to do with sending Wilson....a total lie per the Senate Intelligence report...what the heck will the CIA say....well gee...Harlow made a mistake??

SteveMG

That "Stovepipe" piece by Hersh noted above is quite interesting. Hersh is hardly an apologist for the Bush W.H. especially that "neocon" wing.

And I put neocon in quotes because I haven't heard a single person on the left define to my satisfaction what a "neocon" is (okay, "my satisfaction" is a sneaky standard but, hey it's my post).

Cheney sure in the hell isn't one.

clarice

windansea--yes--exactly. Just as Tenet was never informed of Wilson's Mission or report, it seems he was not informed of the transmittal..

The WashPo (Style section ) today relates the Keller-Miller fight. The interesting thing is that Miller ws told if she didn't write up an account of her testimony for the paper, she'd be out of a job there. Bennet says he felt such a report was beyond the waiver granted by Libby and might piss off Fitz..

As to the dispute, I wonder if Keller demanded Kristoff reveal his sources to the paper? LOL

Patrick R. Sullivan

'May is the first one (and pretty much only one) to say Plame's status was an open secret in Washington. It is not credible...'

It was credible to Joe Wilson, who wrote in his book that her name probably had been circulated in neo-con circles as a result of a 'work-up' on him.

Dave S in VaBeach

Charles Giacometti,

Once classified information is compromised to the public there is no longer a need (or even a way) to protect it.

If someone is working as a contractor for the DOD, there could be other reasons he is expected/required not to publicly comment on publicly compromised information – even if his comments are exclusively limited to the mere identical repeating of the compromised information. For instance, his open comments could undermine the DOD’s confidence in him as a working confidant. Further, awareness that the contractor ALSO knew about the previously classified information could lead to examination of his position at the DOD, and perhaps that examination could lead to the further compromise of sensitive information.

But Karl Rove and Scooter Libby don’t work for the DOD. They themselves are publicly known political operatives. So if we operate from the premise that previously classified information has been compromised to the public (as your point did) it’s hard to imagine why there would be an expectation/requirement that Rove and Libby not publicly comment on it. They are high profile, political figures discussing information that is no longer hidden from the public. Information, incidentally, that showed that a political savaging of President Bush by Joe Wilson's lies was made possible by the nepotism of his CIA employee wife. Unlike a DOD contractor designing weaponry or improving systems for overseas operations, that’s the exact kind of thing that political operatives are supposed to be publicly speaking about. It's their duty.

Again, here we are assuming that a) there was any information to compromise in the first place, and that b)the information was already compromised.

Going beyond your premise, if we take a) as true and b) as false, then intention has to be established before a credible argument of wrongdoing can be made. In which case I would agree that Rove, Libby, and any other guilty party ought to be punished. But as far as we can tell, we're nowhere near there yet. Thankfully.

SteveMG

Steve Hayes in the Weekly Standard raises the interesting angle that the CIA's leaking of the referral to the Justice Department after Plame's name was published was itself probably illegal. Obviously, the CIA would not want its referrals to be leaked since that could give a heads up about possible compromised intelligence being revealed.

Qui bono? To whose benefit?

No doubt - as others here have posted - a major sub theme to this affair is the CIA's open warfare against the W.H. You had ex-CIA officers disseminating fake Niger documents in an attempt to pull a sting on the Administration, current officers leaking classified information to the press in an attempt to undermine policy, et cetera et cetera.

Doesn't excuse law-breaking - if any - by Libby, Rove et al. But it's a interesting story that the press doesn't really want to report on.

Because, after all, the press really doesn't want to stop leaks.

SMG

Charles Giacometti

Dave S,

You write thoughtfully, but you are wrong on the facts. In fact, classified information about DOD systems is constantly speculated on and written about in publications like Aviation Week and the Janes publications. As a person holding a clearance, you _still_ can't talk about it. Talking about it only further confirms the validity of the information. Your job is to keep your mouth shut. The rules about this are crystal clear.

I really don't know what Rove, Libby, et al did. The facts will come out. But if they knowingly disclosed classified information--even if that information is somehow out there--they broke the rules and likely the law.

Charles

Cecil Turner

I really don't know what Rove, Libby, et al did. The facts will come out. But if they knowingly disclosed classified information--even if that information is somehow out there--they broke the rules and likely the law.

Perfectly correct. (The same applies to Wilson, of course.) However, applying that to Rove, et al, requires that they know Plame is covert, which seems dubious at best. (I'm trying to think of a classification scheme that would give political advisers a need-to-know for covert officers' identities . . . and failing miserably.) It's obvious her identity was "out there," but the source for the initial leak would logically be in CIA headquarters. (Or, if it was the INR memo, it appears to be a case of the CIA not taking adequate procedures to safeguard her identity.) If she was in fact covert, the likelihood that Rove or Libby would stumble across such information in their regular duties seems remote.

jukeboxgrad

"applying that to Rove, et al, requires that they know Plame is covert"

I've seen you say this many times. What I haven't seen is any clue of how you square this with SF-312, which indicates that Rove et al had a burden to ask first, if they weren't sure.

This has been pointed out on many occasions, such as here.

minimax

This post seems to me to be quite absurd. Yes, if someone suspected Plame of being a CIA agent, it would not be hard to verify. It is commonly the case in real world problems that it is easier to verify than it is to come up with the solution. Forming the hypothesis is the hard part. RSA cryptography, for example, is based on this principle.

For instance, if you had a really, really good hunch about what my email password is, then you could easily check that you were correct. The hard part is figuring out what to guess.

It is easy to verify if someone is a CIA agent. The whole being undercover thing works so well because the bad guys don't know who you are, and there are too many people to check one-by-one.

It seems remarkably unlikely that anyone reading Wilson's article would jump to the hypothesis that his wife must work for the CIA.

Another point: the bad guys who would be interested in the fact that Plame is a CIA covert agent likely already know Wilson and Plame and have had some personal contact with them. This makes your argument regarding Wilson's NY Times article seem even more absurd.

Remember, that there exists a woman named Valeria Plame was not what was classified. That she worked for the CIA-- that was classified.

BumperStickerist

TM -

The classified information that was leaked by Libby was Plame's then-current desk assignment in Counter-Proliferation at the CIA.

--- The fact that Plame worked at the CIA is not classified.

--- The specific type of work Plame did at the CIA IS, however, classified.

When Libby said that Wilson's wife was at the CIA and worked in Counter-Proliferation he revealed information that was, technically, classified.

The 'Outing a Former Undercover Agent' angle, as it applies to Libby, is a red-herrinng.

But, what this case will boil down to is that Libby told a reporter which part of the CIA Valerie Plame worked in.

Which again, is - technically - classified information so the indictment is warranted, if a bit of a ticky-tack call, imo.

The Former Undercover Agent bit was made widely known by Joe Wilson, of all people.

kim

I've asked before, but is it standard operating procedure for a covert agent to use their real name? I've always thought that odd, because it might structurally endanger her family(parents, step-brother); thus I've had my doubts about that part of the story.

Besides, we don't know now what she did then, nor what she does now.
===============================================

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