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October 28, 2005

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Geek, Esq.

Wow, the rightwingers have gone from "Suck it lefties" to "Fitzgerald is an idiotic loser."

Tells me what I need to know.

windansea

Fitz....not charging Libby with outing a covert agent"

told you so

windansea

Wow, the rightwingers have gone from "Suck it lefties" to "Fitzgerald is an idiotic loser."

Tells me what I need to know.

one anonymous poster on the internet tells you what you need to know huh??

yikes!!

topsecretk9

windsniffer

the only time Joe Wilson has been honest: on CNN

WILSON: My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity.

windansea

TS(

when did he say that?

saw him on TV walking to his car

no comment and he looked ticked off

didn't get his widdle frogmarch of Rove

I hope he sues....love to watch the cross

JayDee

There is absolutely no emotional filter for these rightys, Geek. I'm convinced that's why they were so easily subsumed by the Fox style of news reporting - colorful pictures, being told what to think and dragging every complex issue down to a gradeschool emotional level.

It's done terrible damage to this country, but watching this Fitz guy - professional, straight up, down to earth - reminds me that there's still hope. Just as we're starting to see the Iraq War vets coming back running for Congress & Senate as Dems (every last one so far), we're gradually going to see the loosening of the rightwing death grip on defining patriotism strictly on their terms.

topsecretk9

Windasniff

July 2005

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/14/wbr.01.html

Jim E.

Fitz for SCOTUS! Although he doesn't have John Roberts' anchorman voice, Fitz's 15 minute monologue was almost as impressive as Roberts' opening statement to the Senate committe.

Dandaman

Boy, you wingnuts are really cute when you're frustrated and scared.

I wonder how long the new Grand Jury will be empaneled til. Will it be until halfway through campaign season next year or will it wrap up in October, just before the midterms, like this one?

I don't really know. I think it's 6 months they go for. Of course, that entire time should be interesting to watch the constant discussions about the deception from Republicans during the run up to the war that is costing American lives and billions of dollars.

I like the way this is turning out. Of course, I would have liked it better if the liars hadn't done it, but you can't teach an old Elephant new tricks.

JayDee

From Fitz, a real American: "That talking point won't fly...Truth is the engine of our judicial system."

The talking point in question? The one soon to be heard coming out of every winger media mouth a mile a minute - two years and no indictment on an underlying crime????????????

The point of perjury is it is used by criminals to PREVENT discovery of the truth about an underlying crime.

owl

Wrong. What I am emotional about is the way Fritz started his little tale. He said it with a straight face. I NEVER said that Libby did not lie to the gj. Difference.

I said Fritz was clueless after 22 months. All you have to do is listen to his comments on reporters. That is how I know he is clueless. He said at the jump go of his news conference that his job was to gather all the facts and then decide the story. He did not tell the "story" as it actually happened. Wilson and his wife deliberately led a coup against the WH. They used Democratic MSM. It was done with a political motive to benefit a political party. Fritz told some fairy tale straight from the MSM pages. I did not say Libby didn't lie. I did not say Fritz was a political operative. I said he remains clueless to have said what he said about Wilson and tell his "story" as he told it. Case closed.

Mahatma Kane Jeeves

Plame's status was classified but not covert.
Indictment:

page 3
Joseph Wilson was married to Valerie Plame Wilson ("Valerie Wilson"). At all relevant times from January 1, 2002 through July 2003, Valerie Wilson was employed by the CIA, and her employment status was classified. Prior to July 14, 2003, Valerie Wilson’s affiliation with the CIA was not common knowledge outside the intelligence community.

Page 2

The responsibilities of certain CIA employees required that their association with the CIA be kept secret; as a result, the fact that these individuals were employed by the CIA was classified. Disclosure of the fact that such individuals were employed by the CIA had the potential to damage the national security in ways that ranged from preventing the future use of those individuals in a covert capacity, to compromising intelligence-gathering methods and operations, and endangering the safety of CIA employees and those who dealt with them.

Rick Ballard

Mahatma,

Only problem is - if she's dumb enough to get involved in sending blabbohubby to Niger she's not exactly 007 material to begin with. And if blabbohubby seeks the limelight based on a decision rooted in her nepotistic tendencies - who's at fault?

She was finished in the intelligence field the minute blabbo opened his mouth.

Patrick R. Sullivan

I've seen some pretty desperate rescue attempts, but the lefties here take the cake.

Fitz finally admitted, after about the fourth question, that it's not against the law to reveal classified information, per se. He didn't indict on charges of revealing, because there was no intent to do harm; i.e., Plame's employment was relevant to the controversy.

Just as I've been telling numerous idiots for two years now.

JayDee

LOL, talk about your desperate rescue attempts , Patrick. Where did you pull that "intent" nonsense out of? Fitz never said that. He couldn't indict on a charge he couldn't prove. But he couldn't prove it because Libby committed a CRIME in obstructing the investigation into the crime. Why was Libby lying about something if it wasn't a crime?

You wingers need to brush up on your patriotic principles. Listen to Fitzgerald a little. It will clean you out. National security is not giving old men Viagra shots because they can gloat about how their guns are bigger than the Muslims' guns. For one thing,it's about respecting the LAWS that protect the very few qualified, courageous individuals willing to put their lives on the line and go into the CIA. But you all would rather split hairs over it.

Party before Country every time. That's the Republican way.

Walter

So,

When interviewed by the FBI and again in front of the grand jury, Libby explained that he had first heard of Plame through gov't sources. Quotes in the indictment.

But,
He told reporters that he heard it from them. He told the FBI and the GJ that he was surprised when reporters told him that Plame was involved because he had forgotten that he had initially learned from gov't sources. Fitzgerald can easily show that he should not have been surprised, as he had been working on the issue for over a month at the time of the conversations. Fitzgerald's indictment spends a lot of time proving that Libby knew something that he disclosed he knew whenever he was questioned.

That seems like a slam-dunk, except that, as he did not lie about what he knew, where he learned it, or when he knew it, his lie about his state of mind seems, perhaps ... immaterial?

With regard to the substantive mistatements about the content of his conversations with reporters, materiality is not the issue.

However,
(insert mandatory "I have never defended a perjury charge")
Isn't it a bit difficult to prove a he-said/(s)he said case when the accusers refuse to answer questions? For example, Cooper, Russert, and Miller famously refused to answer questions about who else, if anyone, told them anything about the case. That doesn't affect their credibility for probable cause, but it certainly has an impact on Libby's abilty to confront his accuser, and lends some (perhaps) reasonable doubt.

Am I missing something?

topsecretk9

Party before Country every time. That's the Republican way.

What can does this come from?

owl

You just made my point Walter. It all stinks all the way through because you have Wilson part of a plot and then able to hide behind "protected" wife. Then you have these "shielded" reporters as witnesses that were the conduit to send Wilson AND wife's story to the front pages. Now they are all protected except for the attacked party.

leah

Dems don't have a country. Their allegiance is to their multi-national, UN-biased, global-testing, European Socialist, non-sovereign, one-world, let's-launch-a-covert-operation-against-the-US-government sensibilities.

jukeboxgrad

Jane: "Any outing of Plame's status was as result of her failure to rein in her loudmouth husband. Deal with it."

Even if you believe Wilson and Plame are the devil, and have committed unspeakable crimes against puppies and babies, none of that gives Libby et al a free pass to break the law. Deal with it.

Cecil: "It's certainly an indicator of how seriously they [Plame/Wilson] took her cover"

See the above.

American: "The first thing Fitzgerald should have done was to determine whether leaking Plame's name was a crime, i.e. whether she really was covert."

The indictment makes clear that Plame's status as a CIA employee was classified information. Period. It doesn't matter whether or not one also wants to claim she was a covert operative.

Reg: "While Harlow said not to publish Plame's name he apparently went on record with this ... "

I agree that it looks like Harlow told Novak something about Plame (the part about "asked his wife to contact him"). But you're making an unwarranted assumption to claim Harlow said this "on record."

I think Novak said to Harlow "Rove et al have already told me all about Plame, so don't bullshit me." Then Harlow said "Plame didn't send Wilson, and please don't write anything about her."

If this is what happened, I'm not going to claim that Harlow handled it perfectly. But I think it's understandable, given the players involved.

jukeboxgrad

Owl: "He needs to explain to us how Kristof and Pincus could write about Wilson in May and June, long before Miller/Libby ... Are you telling me that Kristof and Pincus source was not Wilson AND wife?"

You know how: they heard from Wilson. So what? Show me where Kristof/Pincus outed a CIA employee.

Nimrod: "An indictment of Libby is cause for much rejoicing on the right apparently."

Exactly. The right is thrilled because there are actually some senior Republican figures who haven't been indicted and aren't even under investigation yet! Who woulda thunkit?

Boris: "Someone openly working at CIA headquarters is not 'undercover' in the common meaning of that word."

Bottom line: according to Fitz, Plame's status as a CIA employee was classified information. As someone said, deal with it.

Anyway, I think you're suggesting that Libby wasn't committing a crime when outed Plame. If so, why did he do so much lying to cover his tracks?

Mark: "She worked at Langley, just how covert could she have been?"

The indictment makes clear that Plame's status as a CIA employee was classified information, and it doesn't matter whether or not one also wants to claim she was a covert operative.

"For goodness sake this was the worst kept secret in Washington."

Then what a surprise that not a single source (named or otherwise) has come forward to proclaim that they ever heard such a thing (Plame's status as a CIA employee), pre-Novak. Vague hearsay by Cliff May, reported ex post facto, doesn't count.

jukeboxgrad

Don: "No laws broken until overzealous prosecutor comes to town."

Let the swiftboating begin. Yes, Fitz is partisan. I guess that's why yesterday the WSJ called him "a respected prosecutor of unquestioned integrity."

Owl: "Fritz is a certifiable vicious idiot"

See the above.

"I saw Andrea Mitchell agree on MSNBC that this was one of those 'everybody knows' secrets."

Then what a surprise that not a single source (named or otherwise) has come forward to proclaim that they ever heard such a thing (Plame's status as a CIA employee), pre-Novak. Vague hearsay by Cliff May, reported ex post facto, doesn't count.

"Cooper sleeps with a Democratic operative and we are suppose to take these people's word?"

Funny thing how Cooper protected his source all through the period preceding 11/2/04. Do you think this made him more popular at home?

By the way, Fitz has a lot more on Libby than just what Cooper said.

Rick: "the States case is dependent on testimony from Cooper, Russert and Miller."

Fitz has a lot more than that.

Ace: "Yes, she was so concerned about her identity she posted for pictures in Vanity Fair."

That was months later, Einstein. Once she was outed, she was outed. The toothpaste doesn't go back in the tube.

jukeboxgrad

Cathyf: "So at any time, they can come frog-march you off because something that you could not have had any clue would be ruled a secret was, and you have spoken it."

Good luck convincing anyone that Libby "could not have had any clue" that a WMD operative working for the CIA might have their employment status classified as secret.

Anyway, if that's really what happened, why didn't he just tell us right off the bat? "Oops, terribly sorry, I didn't know her employment status was classified." Instead, he lied his butt off. I think that's a clue that he knew exactly what he was doing right from the start.

Neo: "procedural matters like making false statements."

I thought lying about a blowjob was a big fucking deal. What changed?

Dirty: "Someone please explain it to me why, if he can prove it was in fact Libby who leaked the information, Fitz couldn't also indict for mishandling classified information or some related charge."

I think Fitz feels that in order to make that charge stick, he would also have to prove that Libby was aware of her classified status. It appears that Fitz realized he could more easily nail Libby these other ways. Fitz made it pretty clear he just wants to nail bad guys, and it doesn't matter much what nail is used, as long as it sticks. Makes sense to me.

jukeboxgrad

AT: " ... or else there would have been a count for an actual crime."

I remember the good old Clinton days, when we were told that perjury was "an actual crime."

Dork: "I made the mistake of listening to the mainstream media over the last few weeks and they had me believing the entire WH was going to be marched out in handcuffs and sent directly to prison"

Maybe you should put the cork back in the champagne bottle. Fitz isn't done yet.

"It doesn't stay 'not known' it says 'not common knowledge'...which means it was not 'generally known', but it was known."

Then what a surprise that not a single source (named or otherwise) has come forward to proclaim that they ever heard such a thing (Plame's status as a CIA employee), pre-Novak. Vague hearsay by Cliff May, reported ex post facto, doesn't count.

Neo: "it is clear that much of the background briefings, common in the White House for years, are probably subject to criminal prosecution."

Tell us about the other CIA employees who were outed by prior administrations.

Ed: "the original leaker wasn't libby"

No. Fitz said Libby was the first government official to tell the press about Plame.

jukeboxgrad

Rick: "Libby's charged with nothing Clinton didn't do"

Let us know how many CIA WMD operatives were outed by Clinton.

I seem to remember hearing somewhere that we should be very, very concerned about WMD. Did I get that wrong? Or maybe it's actually blow jobs that are a major threat to national security. It's all so confusing sometimes.

Anyway, it's not a good sign for the quality of your argument when the best you can do is say "we're not any worse than the guy we told you was the devil incarnate." Especially when it's not even true.

Wind: "he revealed her as working for the CIA and probably didn't know she was covert"

The covert part doesn't matter (even though I guess you really wish it did). What matters is that her status as a CIA employee was classified information, and Libby leaked it anyway. That's a problem. Deal with it.

Jim: "If Plame was covert, then Fitzgerald would have charged him with leaking her status."

Not necessarily. It's natural for Fitz to go for the low-hanging fruit: whatever charges will stick most easily. Maybe Fitz felt he needed to prove knowledge, or intent, and didn't have enough proof.

Anyway, it's not a question of whether or not Plame was covert (whatever that means). It's that her status as a CIA employee was classified.

Sue: "Does classified mean covert?"

Bottom line: Plame worked for the CIA. That fact, in and of itself, was classified information.

jukeboxgrad

Jim: "Still no charge for outing Plame."

It's pretty clear that Fitz believes that Libby outed Plame. The fact that this isn't the charge simply means that Fitz found some other charges which he could use more easily to hang this felon.

topsecret: "My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity."

What an act of desperation to trot that one out. Wilson made it clear he meant "Plame's cover was blown the day Novak blew her cover, as a result of Novak blowing her cover."

Owl: "He [Fitz] did not tell the "story" as it actually happened."

Can you be more specific? What statement of Fitz's do you find objectionable? That he didn't say "Wilson and his wife deliberately led a coup against the WH?"

Rick: "She was finished in the intelligence field the minute blabbo opened his mouth."

Even if you believe Wilson and Plame are the devil, and have committed unspeakable crimes against puppies and babies, none of that gives Libby et al a free pass to break the law. Deal with it.

Walter: "When interviewed by the FBI and again in front of the grand jury, Libby explained that he had first heard of Plame through gov't sources. Quotes in the indictment."

I can't find such a thing in the indictment. Can you help me find it?

"Am I missing something?"

Yes (aside from the other question I raised about your comment). Fitz has a lot to work with besides the testinony of the reporters you mentioned.

Neo

Now this morning Drudge has a report that says Valerie Plame has received threats.

I wonder if Joe Wilson now regrets that photo of himself and Valerie on the cover of Vanity Fair ? One of those coulda woulda maybe shouldn't moments.

Better yet, it is now revealed that Joe did a previous trip for the CIA to Africa in 1999, based on a suggestion by his wife, Valerie Plame (or Flame).

But I most enjoyed the comments about how this reveals an ambassador's wife as CIA. Most Interior ministers of US-hostile countries must already have considered ambassador's wifes to be CIA (like the think of the ambassador himself), but this only confirms their suspicions. (I seem to remember post about this topic before).

richard mcenroe

"The CIA determines who is covert. Not the White House political staff, not the Press." -- Or Senator Leahy. Or Phillip Agee. Or the New York Times...

jukeboxgrad

"it is now revealed that Joe did a previous trip for the CIA to Africa in 1999, based on a suggestion by his wife, Valerie Plame"

That was revealed a long time ago. No one has ever denied it.

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Wilson/Plame