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November 21, 2005

Comments

windansea

BINGO!!

Gary Maxwell

With that in mind, the word "operative" may have come directly from the CIA.b

Is that the real untold story on this whole affair, not just the little bit regarding Novak?

Reg Jones

This is not an uncommmon Novak expression:

The gap between the Teamsters and the Democrats has not brought the union closer to the Republicans. "The bridge between us and the White House is gone," one Teamsters political operative told me, "and it never will be rebuilt." [Novak, 6/28/05]

windansea

With that in mind, the word "operative" may have come directly from the CIA.

or from Wilson heh heh

Jeff

Just to add a couple of things. Remember that Novak originally told Joe Wilson his source was at the CIA, before backing off from that and saying he had mispoken. Next, remember too that Novak told Wilson's friend on the street categorically that Wilson's wife sent him. However, that categorical statement -- and not just the softer one that she suggested him -- is needed to complete the syllogism. But that means that Novak was getting from somewhere that Wilson's wife sent him -- and those of us on the left have been arguing for a while that the smear against the Wilsons coming out of the White House was not just that his wife was in some minimal way involved, but that she sent him, she decided to send him, she authorized the trip, whatever. The point is, Novak needed something stronger than "suggested" for the syllogism, and he probably got it from the WH, tempering it in the published version because of contradictory testimony from the CIA.

Also, on this account, Novak thought she was a covert operative. Doesn't that kind of blow one of the main talking points of the right for the last couple of years?

Syl

Novak does not think the word 'operative' means spy because he did not think Valery was a spy. Novak knows the CIA does not confirm the employment of spies.

The entire argument over the word is just silly.

danking

Wasn't Dr. Marshall a recipient of leaks from Wilson at the beginning of this story?

Didn't Marshall have some blockbuster story (based on leaks/info from Wilson) that got canned after Wilson's testimony in front of the Senate Intelligence committee?

Dwilkers

I agree with req jones above. Novak used 'operative' a lot. Political operative, union operative, White House operative, blah blah blah. I've always thought the whole 'operative' dust up was way over blown.

cathyf

This also matches with another piece of the story...

When Novak takes his story to the CIA press liason, Harlow confirms very offhand that Plame is CIA, and immediately plunges into a semantic argument about whether Novak's description of Plame's role in sending her husband to Niger is perfectly accurate. Harlow's "she had nothing to do with it" is basically a lie, and Novak's construction the truth. Then Harlow gets off the phone, checks the computer, and he "confirms" that Plame is NOC. (Yeah right -- if he already knew and this was just confirmation, what was he doing confirming her employment to Novak?) Then he calls Novak back and tries to convince him to not publish her name, and says everything -- "short of telling Novak that she is covert" -- to try to convince Novak to protect her identity.

Novak's story was that Harlow never indicated that she was covert and that he was shocked to find out that Plame was NOC when Corn published it. I think he's being coy -- he figured out during Harlow's second phone call that Plame was an ex-covert agent, but since he was pissed that Harlow was trying to snow him, he deliberately played dumb. He figured that if the CIA really didn't want him to publish, then Harlow's boss would call his boss...

If Harlow's leak of his grand jury testimony is correct, he told Novak that Plame used to be covert. So we have right there the fact that the "operative" thing came directly from the CIA.

cathy :-)

TM

From novak's Oct 1, 2003 column:

During a long conversation with a senior administration official, I asked why Wilson was assigned the mission to Niger. He said Wilson had been sent by the CIA's counterproliferation section at the suggestion of one of its employees, his wife.

Novak seems to be pretty well-informed by his second column:

A big question is her duties at Langley. I regret that I referred to her in my column as an "operative," a word I have lavished on hack politicians for more than 40 years. While the CIA refuses to publicly define her status, the official contact says she is "covered" -- working under the guise of another agency. However, an unofficial source at the Agency says she has been an analyst, not in covert operations.

I am with Novak, and Kristof, on this point - lately, she has been working as a liason, or analyst, or anything but a covert agent.

Now, did Woodward report anything about Plame being in the CPD, as Novak's source did? And was that in the INR memo?

From Woodward:

...the person told me Wilson's wife worked for the CIA on weapons of mass destruction as a WMD analyst.
topsecretk9

Also
"Political operative"

This categorically was Novak's original question, purpose for the story...

Why was a former Clinton Amdin official, now a Kerry Campaign Advisor (Operative) chosen for a this trip?

Jim E.

I’ve been following the similarities between the Andrea Mitchell and Novak reporting myself. Besides discovering Mitchell’s July 8, 2003 transcript (which TM duly credited me with at the time), I also speculated about it, and my theory overlaps a bit with TM. I originally posted my theory as comment #4,103 in a long thread on this blog weeks ago (see my comment under TM’s Nov 4 post “The Case Against Karl Rove (Ongoing)” at 12:31pm on Nov 7) and it was subsequently ignored. Therefore, in a fit of patting myself on the back, I will repost it here:
---------(begin original comment)-----

Try this on for size:
1. Novak had ONE source in the CIA, or a source somehow affiliated with the CIA, who told him that low-level covert agents, unbeknownst to either Tenet or Cheney, sent Wilson to Niger. (I happen to think Andrea Mitchell got the same information from the same source given what she said on CNBC July 8, 2003.)
2. Novak also had a SECOND source from the WH who simply told him that Wilson's wife helped send Wilson to Niger.
3. Novak put two-and-two together and realized that Wilson's wife was a covert agent who helped send Wilson to Niger.

In this scenario, no individual leaker broke the law because reporters were leaked info piecemeal. The information about Wilson’s wife was only illegal once Novak put it together. If, for example, Rove and Libby were talking about "Wilson's wife" while Hannah and Fietz, for example, were talking about "low-level covert agents," no single leak was necessarily illegal. Sound plausible? If so, maybe Fitz was unsuccessful in trying to prove that the info was leaked piecemeal on purpose, which I assume would be a crime.
-------(end original comment)------------


As I noted when I posted this weeks ago, the flaw in my theory is that someone, according to Novak, gave him all the info and even Plame’s name. I suggested in my original comment that after unsuccessfully shopping the story around to legitimate reporters, the leakers settled on Novak after July 6. By that time, I argued, they had leaked so much info to so many reporters that they could lie/claim (take your pick) that they heard it from reporters in the first place.

Anyways, my utter lack of humility drove me to post this. I came to part of TM’s conclusion before TM did! (Or he innocently forgot that he read my post, like Elaine forgot about reading Putty's "Ziggy" bedsheets?)

I'll add that in my scenario, Novak's use of the word "operative" (in light of Mitchell's July 8 comment) bolsters, rather than undercuts, Josh Marshall's "definitive" post on the matter.

Jeff

TM - That Wilson's wife worked at CPD was specifically the information Cheney passed to Libby. My understanding is that CPD is on the Directorate of Operations side of the CIA, which makes it much more likely that she was clandestine, and that Cheney and Libby would know this. Presumably reporters like Woodward and Miller understand how all this works, since Woodward and Miller, from the information they receive, both assume that Wilson's wife is not on the clandestine or classified side of things, apparently. The information that Novak gets from his source seems quite different, and indentical to the information Cheney passes to Libby -- which is of course not to say that either of them was his source. But it does suggest again that Novak knew what he was doing when he used the word "operative" and that he got more from his SAO than you initially suggested in your post, or anyway got it differently, it being possible that the SAO was Tenet or some other CIA person.

cathyf
...those of us on the left have been arguing for a while that the smear against the Wilsons coming out of the White House was not just that his wife was in some minimal way involved, but that she sent him, she decided to send him, she authorized the trip, whatever.
The problem with the left's argument is that the nepotism charge is essentially exculpatory for the Wilson's. Or at least it gets them in a whole lot less hot water than any reasonable alternative...

Here's the basic story: Mr. Wilson retires from the state dept, sets up a consulting firm for assisting countries in "business development." Mrs. Wilson is forced to retire from covert duties because she was outed by Aldrich Ames, and then again in a CIA screwup. Mr. Wilson gets $50,000/year in his pension, Mrs. Wilson is getting paid some amount under the table even though she has moved over to the non-covert side of the agency. Their address and lifestyle require an income of $300K-$500K per year. Assuming that Mrs. Wilson doesn't bring home anything close to a quarter-million per year, Mr. Wilson needs to rake in some major big bucks off of this consulting business.

Alternative Explanation #1 -- The Boondoggle: Valerie suggests to her buddies in the CIA and INR that if they could send Joe to Niger, then he could act like the Big Man. The Africans (Niger, Congo, etc.) would think that by paying him his thousands-of-dollars-per-day consulting fees the African governments would be getting somebody who had the ability to "grease the skids" for selling their exports (yellowcake anyone?) on the international markets.

Alternative Explanation #2 -- The Double-Agent: Valerie and Joe are hiring themselves out to African yellowcake exporters. Valerie is the "inside" agent who falsifies the intelligence analysis to make it look like we shouldn't worry about the African yellowcake producers selling to bad guys. Joe runs the consulting company that collects the money.

I think maybe those of you on the left should stick to the Boondoggle Theory.

cathy :-)

Cecil Turner

It seems to me "an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction" is a pretty good translation of "CPD officer, Operations Directorate, CIA" into common English. But I wouldn't read too much into that, since whatever he got from his source, the description is almost certainly tainted by the subsequent conversation with Harlow.

topsecretk9

--I originally posted my theory as comment #4,103 in a long thread on this blog weeks ago (see my comment under TM’s Nov 4 post “The Case Against Karl Rove (Ongoing)” at 12:31pm on Nov 7)

I remember reading it. Question: How many desktop folders do you keep? And do you use a journal too?

Jim E.

Instead of "legitimate reporters" above, I meant to write "MSM reporters." I didn't mean to make this a value judgment about Novak's reporting. I merely wanted to emphasize that Novak sure as hell wasn't the leakers' first choice. Judy Miller was too dense to do their dirty work, despite repeated overtures in her direction. So they settled on the overtly convervative Novak -- a columnist, not a "straight" reporter. They would have prefered that the front page of the NY Times would have broken this story, not a syndicated columnist.

Jeff

The problem with the left's argument is that the nepotism charge is essentially exculpatory for the Wilson's. Or at least it gets them in a whole lot less hot water than any reasonable alternative...

Only in the fevered imaginings of those who don't go to the actual reasonable alternatives neighborhood much. Or who are still bitter that Valerie got into the CIA. :-)

Jim E.

"Question: How many desktop folders do you keep? And do you use a journal too?"

Actually, I use an amazing invention: google.

topsecretk9

Jim E:

Always the smartiebutt At least your consistent.

Rob W

OK--CathyF

In this scenario, no individual leaker broke the law because reporters were leaked info piecemeal. The information about Wilson’s wife was only illegal once Novak put it together. If, for example, Rove and Libby were talking about "Wilson's wife" while Hannah and Fietz, for example, were talking about "low-level covert agents," no single leak was necessarily illegal. Sound plausible? If so, maybe Fitz was unsuccessful in trying to prove that the info was leaked piecemeal on purpose, which I assume would be a crime."

I respectfully disagree. Taking a lawyer's eye to the IIPA I see it uses the formula "information identifying" not "name."

But all of that aside, regardless of the legal aspects of the case, don't you find the idea of going after someone's family like that morally wrong? I've heard plenty of screams about Dick Cheney's daughter--but no one yelling from the Right that somehow this is wrong from a moral point of view. Because it is wrong from a moral point of view. And most likely illegal.

Rob W

Note also above, that Wilson was also a Bush 41 appointee--Deputy Cheif of Mission, Baghdad, during the Gulf war. Bush lauded his service there.

Cathyf:

"Hiring themselves out to yellowcake exporters?" Wow. Who are thes "yellowcake exporters?" Because you know, no yellowcake was exported to Iraq since 1990. Because the mines are tightly controlled by consortium controlled by the French government, who rightly banned uranium exports from the mine to Iraq.

Jim E.

Rob W,

Not sure what you "respectfully disagree" with. The entire premise of my theory is that they've knowingly committed a serious crime that Fitz is unable to prove.

Cecil Turner

But all of that aside, regardless of the legal aspects of the case, don't you find the idea of going after someone's family like that morally wrong?

Sorry, no sale on the "going after families" bit. Plame is part of the story. In fact, it's obviously her expertise Wilson is relying on. He can't speak with any credibility about "twisting" intelligence; only she can. (Which also leads me to believe Wilson used her experience to establish his bona fides with Kristof and Pincus.) If this were a discussion about diplomatic niceties in Gabon, then certainly dragging in Mrs Wilson would be inappropriate. As it is . . .

dogtownGuy

Don't you find the idea of going after someone's family like that morally wrong?

If Al Gore made an inquiry to the CIA, what do YOU CIA know about this...and the CIA sent Karl Rove (or insert any GOPer openly hostile to Clinton with Ambassador bona-fides) at the suggestion of Rove's wife and then Karl went to the papers and said Gore sent me and ignored me would you honestly consider Gore's or WH response "Rove's wife suggested him" as a smear and going after his family?

Give me a break!

And so what about the Bush I, that does not preclude answering legitimate questions about Wilson. Wilson unilaterally invited the scrutiny by 1) falsely stating the particulars about the nature of his trip and 2) discussed information that was patently false "the names were wrong, the dates were wrong" The so-called smear worked to his advantage because it shielded him from having to answer to his falsehoods.

cathyf

So, Jeff, what are the "actual reasonable alternatives"? We have been told over and over that the CIA didn't pay for Joe-the-consultant's time in Niger. As a consultant, he had a fiduciary duty to whomever did pay for the trip to report back a story that was in the payer's interest.

Joe Wilson has protested quite loudly and vociferously that the CIA did not pay for the "Niger caper." If the CIA had in fact paid him, then that would be different. If a person accepts money from one party and acts as that party's agent, that is pretty straightforward. If a person accepts money from some parties (i.e. African governments) with the contractural obligation to act as the agent of those parties, and then turns around and acts as the agent of somebody else (i.e. the CIA) and against the interests of the people who are paying him, then that makes him a double-agent. And the question with double agents is always to wonder just who they work for...

But you can be pretty sure that if those African countries were going to pay Joe Wilson's rates, they were going to expect to get full value for their money. I'm perfectly willing to believe that Joe Wilson is a Big Mouth who would have been unable and/or unwilling to deliver what the Africans were expecting for their money. But I'm not willing to believe that Joe Wilson had any chance in hell in getting tens of thousands of dollars in consulting fees out of his clients and not have them expect something.

cathy :-)

owl

To which I say "bull" to most of what I am reading.

You have the crime going in the wrong direction. Back off and look. Wilson/Plame breakfast with Kristof while yaking it up at a Democratic PAC. Wilson hires out to Kerry. Wilson and Wifey have to have contact with all the reporters and probably their spouses------and what do ALL these people have in common? DNC. All the spouses have DNC connections. DNC. The ones doing the talking and writing against the WH. It was an attack against the WH by Plame and DNC buds using writers that are hardcore DNC ---against the WH. This is what actually happened so if you can use a SP to make a crime against the one attacked......fine.

Looks like a perfect CIA/DNC/MSM trap to me.

owl

Yep cathy.....how did they get that money? And recently divorced at that...

Jim E.

I always thought that Wilson said the CIA paid for his expenses, but that he never received a salary or other payment for his services regarding that trip.

To suggest that Wilson was in the employ of "African governments" for the trip in question is not a "actual reasonable alternative" that Jeff was referring to. The key word being "reasonable." I'm left wondering why you're not suggesting Saddam had Wilson on his payroll while you're at it.

Trained Auditor

Actually, Jeff, one need not suffer fevers to see less-than-pristine (i.e. nakedly political, at the least) motivations behind Wilson and Plame's activity.

The left's de rigeur view of Wilson is a whistle-blower against whom the Bush Administration sought retaliation. Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald has even bought into that assumption (for now).

But we on the right can cast a bit more suspicious eye on Wilson and Plame. Their proclivity for Democrat politics (evidenced by their political contributions, previous public statements and writings, and Wilson's affiliation with the Kerry campaign), at the least raise questions as to whether the Wilson's were trying to slant the yellow-cake picture they projected.

Wilson certainly was doing so. He has a right to speak and campaign politically, of course. It's just that he got caught by the Senate Intelligence Committed misstating his findings.

Plame's activities, if investigated and exposed, could be much more sinister. Opposed to the Bush Administration, perhaps a participant in the intelligence wars between certain factions within the CIA and the Administration, she disbelieved any Iraq-uranium connections before she sent her husband on the Niger trip, thinking the idea was "crazy". Knowing her husband felt the same, she ensured Wilson was sent to investigate the uranium story in Niger, knowing he would attempt to "fit the facts around the policy" of discrediting the Administration's claims.

At minimum, it might be interesting to turn the spotlight on Ms. Plame and her work on WMD issues since the Bush Administration took office.

Eric

I am still disturbed by Wilson having been an advisor to the Kerry campaign from a period beginning shortly after Kristof's 1st column and ending after the Senate inteliigence committee's findings that he did nothing he claimed to do other than go to Niger.

John Gillnitz

I think maybe those of you on the left should stick to the Boondoggle Theory.
Posted by: cathyf | November 21, 2005 at 10:26 A

How about the Treason Theory? That would be the one where Plame's counter proliferation group busted Cheney's Office of Special Plans group trying to plant VX gas in Iraq via Turkey.

cathyf
"Hiring themselves out to yellowcake exporters?" Wow. Who are thes "yellowcake exporters?" Because you know, no yellowcake was exported to Iraq since 1990. Because the mines are tightly controlled by consortium controlled by the French government, who rightly banned uranium exports from the mine to Iraq.
Who said anything about Iraq? The yellowcake-exporting countries (Niger, Congo, etc.) are in the business of selling uranium to users of it. In the whole world. If the international community becomes more concerned about Bad Guys getting the yellowcake, then they are going to demand that the yellowcake exporters set up more/better protections. If the exporters are selling to Bad Guys and the new procedures stop it, then this cuts into their business. But even if the yellowcake exporters are not selling to any Bad Guys, the procedures will cost money to implement, which comes directly out of their bottom line. That will increase prices, which will cut into their sales -- you can argue that the legitimate users are a lot more price sensitive, so the less illegitimate activity, the harder the financial hit will be to the sellers.

If Joe Wilson was really going to be an international business consultant (as opposed to a career-bureaucrat-dilettant who has no idea how the world works off the public teat) this is what it's all about. International business is about money changing hands in exchange for something of value. There are lots of things of value to the people paying the money here. A report from Joe Wilson suggesting that the African yellowcake-exporting nations needed to spend more money on security to keep yellowcake out of Saddam's hands was not one of them.

cathy :-)

John Gillnitz

To refresh memories:

washingtonpost.com
U.S. Suspects Al Qaeda Got Nerve Agent From Iraqis
Analysts: Chemical May Be VX, And Was Smuggled Via Turkey
By Barton Gellman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, December 12, 2002; Page A01
The Bush administration has received a credible report that Islamic extremists affiliated with al Qaeda took possession of a chemical weapon in Iraq last month or late in October, according to two officials with firsthand knowledge of the report and its source. They said government analysts suspect that the transaction involved the nerve agent VX and that a courier managed to smuggle it overland through Turkey.
If the report proves true, the transaction marks two significant milestones. It would be the first known acquisition of a nonconventional weapon other than cyanide by al Qaeda or a member of its network. It
also would be the most concrete evidence to support the charge, aired for months by President Bush and his advisers, that al Qaeda terrorists receive material assistance in Iraq.

clarice

Wilson got some money from his book (not as much as he claimed --more like 100K, I understand). He may have received some money from the Saudis--thru that fake "think tank" of theirs. His EPIC speech probably paid for by Soros thru some fiddle--and the movie, Uncovered ,as well.

But he has had three wives and four children and there has to be more money from elsewhere--Someone has suggested he got some USAID grant for an AIDs project; others that he got some from companies involved in OFF (Almoudi who gave him office space is linked to a bank which financed AQ, a company involved in the OFF scandal and a third company which cooperated with the Taliban in an aborted pipeline scheme,

He has been on a speaking tour which gets him some money--again IIRC thru some Soros operation.

JM Hanes

Rob -
"Because the mines are tightly controlled by consortium controlled by the French government, who rightly banned uranium exports from the mine to Iraq."

This is supposed to be reassuring? LOL!

danking

Eric, why should you be disturb?

The Press certainly isn't.

Wilson is on record saying that the reporters (Pincus and Kristoff) who got the leaks, "misattributed" them.

Don't forget how the Kerry team dropped Wilson like a radioactive hot potato after his testimony.

I wonder if he has a civil suit in the works against the Kerry campaign for wrongful termination of a whistleblower/truthteller?

cathyf

Clarice, good listing of possible sources of income for the Wilson's upper-middle-class lifestyle. One thing to add is all of the cable-TV appearances where he shows up as an "expert" (and shows off his rolex in green rooms.) I'm pretty sure those pay, too.

But the very interesting question is this...

Joe Wilson's post-ambassadorial career has two distinct phases, with the division being spring, 2003. The Wilson family's means of support in the first phase are pretty murky. I suppose that it is possible that the CIA gave Valerie some large pension/settlement because her livelihood of being a covert agent was ended through no fault of her own, but they seemed to be living pretty richly for that plus Joe's (known) $50K DoS pension.

Joe Wilson seems to have had a quite distinct career change from "international business consultant" to DNC political hack in spring of 2003. It is good to keep in mind that the Feb, 2002 Niger caper was during the international business consultant phase.

cathy :-)

Jeff

Has the freeper brain taken over TM's delightful site today? TM?

Why is it that every time TM posts a provocative, thoughtful post about the Plame matter that doesn't fully comport with the full-on ideological rightwing view of the matter, the discussion in comments is invariably led back to accusations about how it's all the Wilsons fault? There's virtually no discussion of TM's suggestions here.

cathyf - I try to engage here, but I just cannot take your claims on this point seriously. I'm sorry. It's not just that your theory is full of holes. I can't dignify them with a response.

And Trained Auditor, you lost me at "Democrat politics." It's called the Democratic Party. I know that it's standard practice among hard-core Republicans to call them the Democrat Party, but that's precisely because it is an insult.

Gary Maxwell

Its an insult to be called a "Democrat"? My my if you can call them liberals and you cant call them Democrats what is left, besides shrill craven jackasses I mean.

Simon

The biggest problem with Marshall's "operative" argument – and indeed the entire Plamegate story – is that no one has stated Plame was recently covert. Fitz sure hasn't. Apparently this is because she was outed by Ames in '94. More generally, the CIA has its problems, but even they realize a desk job at CIA HQ is a ridiculous cover for a covert agent.

The bottom line is Fitz has been investigating the wrong column.

Neither Novak nor any of his sources (to our knowledge) talked about Plame's covert history. It may be unsavory to bring a spouse into the argument (debatable in this instance), but indicating someone works at the CIA isn't illegal. What is potentially illegal is revealing a covert agent's status. Or in this case, a former covert agent's history, which was classified.

It was Corn at the Nation, not Novak, that first reported Plame's covert background. If an investigation is warranted on this issue, it should be determining Corn's sources.

A hint as to why this hasn't occured: Wilson was the person quoted extensively in Corn's column.

Jeff

Its an insult to be called a "Democrat"?

No, that's not what I said and it's not what Trained Auditor was saying. Pay attention, and then we'll see who the jackass is. The noun is Democrat, the adjective is Democratic. Trained Auditor said, "Democrat politics." And if you don't think Republicans know what they're doing when they say "Democrat Party" and such, then you give the Republicans less credit than they deserve. And you don't know your history.

Jeff

TM - Check this out, from Pincus and Allen's October 12, 2003 WaPo piece. They're talking about when Pincus published his article on June 12 2003:

Starting that week, the officials repeatedly played down the importance of Wilson's trip and its findings, saying it had been authorized within the CIA's nonproliferation section at a low level without requiring the approval of senior agency officials. No one brought up Wilson's wife, and her employment at the agency was not known at the time the article was published.

Sound familiar?

boris

adjective is Democratic

Cry me a river. It's ambiguous, the other isn't.

windansea

the discussion in comments is invariably led back to accusations about how it's all the Wilsons fault?

We wouldn't be discussing this if Val hadn't suggested hubby Joe for the boondoggle and if Joey didn't misrepresent facts to Pincus Kristof Corn and in his own article now would we??

Besides...the left had all but impeached Bush, frogmarched Karl and Cheney et all off in handcuffs until their fitzmas fizzled

Yeesh!! of course we can talk about the Wilsons

I'm sure TM will send them a nice Christmas card to their new home in San Clemente...he would still be waiting for his 15 minutes sans the Wilson kerfluffle

Jeff

It's ambiguous, the other isn't.

This is just silly. It's not ambiguous, the adjective is "Democratic." Republicans use "Democrat" because the adjective "democratic" has good associations for most people. It's an effective tactic, and you wouldn't be disputing my claim if it weren't. With some inexplicable exceptions and some explicable ones (like Zell Miller), Democrats never use "Democrat" as the adjective.

cathyf
cathyf - I try to engage here, but I just cannot take your claims on this point seriously. I'm sorry. It's not just that your theory is full of holes. I can't dignify them with a response.
Translation: you don't have a response.

Have you ever been a consultant? Do you understand fiduciary duty? Do you understand that when an employee does work, the work product is owned by the employer? Do you understand that everyone (CIA, Joe Wilson, SSCI) has been adament that the CIA did not own Joe Wilson's work product from his Feb 2002 trip because they didn't pay for it?

You know, if it had been Joe Wilson who was the CIA agent during the 1999 and 2002 trips, if it had been Joe Wilson who had the NOC (the international business consulting business) that was hiding him spying on the African yellowcake-producing states, I could have had a lot of respect for the CIA. And I keep hoping that somehow that's the story and the CIA has kept his cover. But given Joe Wilson's actions over the last 2.5 years, how could he not be in jail if he was an ex-CIA agent who had blown a top-secret anti-proliferation operation by blabbing about his 2002 trip?

cathy :-)

Gary Maxwell

Republicans use "Democrat" because the adjective "democratic" has good associations for most people.

Perhaps its the other way around. To spell it out, Republicans use "Democrat" cuz it has negative connotations for most people. :)

Trained Auditor

As an aside, the Democrat Party is far from democratic. Republicans learned that labels are important from the "anti-abortion" vs "pro-life" wars.

But don't get caught up in semantics; it's the content that's important - - for both sides, I should say...

topsecretk9

Windansniff--
Don't remind me...I weep for my innocent little hometown (not little pre- Wilson anymore though-ick)

windansea

Don't remind me...I weep for my innocent little hometown (not little pre- Wilson anymore though-ick)

I used to surf in front of Nixon's western WH...I love San Clemente....maybe they will go to Hollywood and shop screenplays

BurkettHead

wind,sea&surf said: "maybe they will go to Hollywood and shop screenplays."

Nah. The storyline just isn't believable (or is that be-leave-able?)

topsecretk9

wind--
Cottons!

windansea

wind--
Cottons!

thats it my friend..I forgot the name but not the lefts

Yep...even righties go left sometimes

see if the trolls can figure that one out!!

Sue

Let's see, we can't call democrats democrats. We can't call them lefties. Apparently jackasses didn't go over very well either. We can't say a democrat in congress has Michael Moore views, even though the democrats prominently displayed him at their reporting for duty ceremony. We must pay homage to all veterans with wrongheaded ideas, simply because they are veterans, while placing untold atrocities at the feet of those presently serving, even so far as giving the enemy the benefit of the doubt, not our own soldier.

Hmmmm...a kerfunkle for sure.

Kind of like Charlie Rangel mad as hell because the republicans played his hand for him. He, along with 12 other democrats, had signed on to a bill calling for the 'immediate' cessation of funding the war and bringing the troops home 'immediately'. His beef about voting it Friday? I have no idea. I suspect he doesn't either. Kind of like his bill to restart the draft. A sideshow he had to vote on instead of talking it to death. :)

Totally off subject. Perhaps TM will forgive me this once.

Jeff

Sue -- Nobody's telling you what you can and can't do. But just because you can fail to read with any attention doesn't mean it's all well and good that you do. Just because you can mischaracterize all sorts of things doesn't mean you should be congratulated on it.

boris

Just because you can mischaracterize all sorts of things

Whiney whiney whiney.

Poor poor thing. You might be very suprised to know that we non-leftoids don't actually think of ourselves as hateful nasty cheaters.

TexasToast

Actually Boris

You can write a pretty good post when you leave off the ad hom attack (like your posts regarding ID) - but obviously that aint as much fun.

boris

After three or more posts of whine whine whine I simply had to attack attack attack. I just hope the poor thing isn't traumatized too much to type through the tears.

JM Hanes

Jeff -
While I personally say Democratic Party, you should know that Democrat Party has a legitimate history too. In much of the South, and I would assume elsewhere, it used to be pretty standard, and "Democratic" is actually the arriviste. It's true that Republicans often make a point of using it, but why beat your head against that wall?

Sue

Jeff,

Of course no one is telling me what I can and can't do. It was rhetorical. They really don't know me, you see. You complain about Democrat Party as being an obvious put down (I don't know why, BTW) yet have no problem with dealing out a little of your own put down.

What part of my post was micharacterized? If you don't mind me asking.

boris

Sue,

You didn't describe the left the way they see themselves.

Sue

To be honest, I didn't realize that using the term Democrat Party was meant to be offensive. Anymore than using Republican Party. BTW, what is the adjective for Republican? Republicanic? So now we have the Democratic Party and the Republicanic Party. And everyone is smiley face.

Pretty silly argument, if you ask me.

TexasToast

Jeff

Actually, Democrat party is old southern usage - back in the days when everyone in the south was a democrat.

It's only recently become pejorative.

Sue

Boris,

I didn't describe them period. I merely gave examples of actual comments made by democrats. Or would that be democratics? :)

boris

It's only recently become pejorative.

Now this I don't get at all. WTF ???

TexasToast

Boris

No one uses it now except for attacks. If I see democrat used as an adjective, I can predict with near certainty that its from an opponant.


For example "Democrat Wars"

boris

Or would that be democratics?

LOL or democratarians.

boris

No one uses it now except for attacks

Terms like democratic foreign policy would be rather ambiguous. Would it not?

Clarity trumps taking offense at every opportunity and them some.

TexasToast

Are you trying to tell me that "democratic foreign policy" with respect to US foreign policy is ambiguous?

ISTM that its a framing issue - you guys don't want to grant the democratic frame and we demand it - even thought both democratic and republican foreign policy is "democratic".

boris

even thought both democratic and republican foreign policy is "democratic".

Since they're actually quite different the ambiguity should be obvious

Actually I think it's just a brand new effort to upgrade their self image by demanding more respectful adjectives with positive esteem building connotations.

Let's all try to come up with more adjectives with nicer sounding touchy feely emotion.
.

JM Hanes

Boris -

It would be written "Democratic foreign policy."

boris

Hint:

Democrat foreign policy = cut and run

Democratic foreicn policy = stay and complete Iraq democracy

(JM no cigar)

TexasToast

Boris

You just proved it - by your usage.

boris

Wow if it wasn't for the return of The Kid, this silliness would dominate the Recent Comments sidebar!

boris

You just proved it - by your usage.

Helloooooo Tex !

The democratic foreign policy is from the Republicans. The foreign policy of the Democrats is NOT democratic.

danking

Woodward is talking again...

http://pajamasmedia.com/newsml/html/2005/11/21/6457804_Woodward_Explain.shtml

(Drip, drip, drip...)

"Woodward again questioned the importance of the case. "When it all comes out _ and hopefully it will come out _ people will see how casual and offhand this was," he told King.

"Remember, the investigation and the allegations that people have printed about this story is that there's some vast conspiracy to slime Joe Wilson and his wife, really attack him in an ugly way that is outside of the boundaries of political hardball," Woodward said.

"The evidence I had firsthand _ a small piece of the puzzle, I acknowledge _ is that that was not the case.""


Bet Fitzgerald loves Woodward's continued commentary on his case. LOL!

Neo

I've got this sow's ear that needs some attention.

Better yet, this old one from WSJ ..
.. that's thin .. it's thinner than p.ss on a rock.

topsecretk9

Oh you East coasters....I still got Paula... but this is rich,... apparently Woodward is a Republican(ic) Naval Intel Spy Plant Operative Spy Intel Covert Clandestine Plant Spy????? according to Larry Johnson, natch!

topsecretk9

Wind-an-shredder or Wind-an-carver

what's your preference when your not on the sneakies trail?

Sue

TSK9,

Did you read the 1st comment there? It sounds as if that person thinks Woodward is a Naval Intel Spy Plant Operative Spy Intel Covert Clandestine Plant Spy, but not for the Republican(ic) Party. Strange things happen over there. Be vewwwy, vewwwy careful. :)

topsecretk9

Sounds to me that Woodward was working on a story and learned his source was the same as Novaks...but didn't realize the importance until AFTER Fitzs said first official...

danking

"Naval Intel Spy Plant Operative Spy Intel Covert Clandestine Plant Spy"


Another sign that Woodward's got the goods to blow Plamegate out of the water.

Come on MSM. You can do it or we can have Bob do it for you. I know which one will hurt more. LOL!

Hope the Wilsons like California. I hear they don't have paparazzi there.

Sue

Why, oh why, won't they just put us out of our misery and tell us who the freakin' leaker is. :) And why they leaked. And all the other questions that seem to be driving us all a little batty.

topsecretk9

Sue

You better stop going there (in fact a DEMAND you stop) or elst you will strat getting more than emails!!!

I did read that and thought---sheesh I can't even get what they think, Woodward is a Republican(ic) Party Naval Intel Spy Plant Operative Spy Intel Covert Clandestine Plant Spy double agent

topsecretk9

First I have to say Woodwards holding up past issues of the Post is about as creepy and lame as Wilson prepping his Bush senior pictures and news articles for his vast press interest onslaught

Danking
Hope the Wilson's like California. I hear they don't have paparazzi there.

NOW THAT was funny.

Kate

Larry Johnson is totally nuts. He is the main source for Raw Story and has been feeding misinformation to the leftist web sites for months.

He wants Hadley bad.

topsecretk9

Sue-

Maybe he was in "double agent" mode when he did the Nixon reporting, but then reverted back to his Republican(ic)-ness Intel covert Plant about..oh I don't know...um.... say....2000!

Sue

TSK9,

I don't post under Sue anymore. And I have a throwaway email addy, so does that make me a Republican(ic) Party Intel Spy Plant Operative Spy Intel Covert Clandestine Plant Spy double agent when I stir up the action over there? :)

topsecretk9

Sue--

maybe, but a fun one!

Woodward went through this tortured explanation about the "junkyard" reference that just kept going back to Isikoff AND told us how he HIRED Isikoff too!

Junkyard + turning over all rocks....

so I think that in a convoluted way Woodward stabbed at resurrecting Isikoff simultaneously confirming Izzy's recent story (especially since he characterized his sources as SO morally aware he SHOULD go to Fitz)

richard mcenroe

Dammit, Valerie Plame was a covert operative! In fact, she was crawling under the barbed wire with Jennifer Garner at the very moment Karl Rove was giving the order to blow her cover.

For Bush! BUUUUUUUUUUUSH!

Syl

LOL you guys (and gals)!!

Jeff

JM Hanes and Texas Toast - Thanks for filling in some of the story. Dems in the South were the explicable exceptions I had in mind.

boris - Don't flatter yourself just because your contributions are no longer all just ripped off from Powerline.

Sue - You completely mischaracterize the substance of Murtha's position and the reasons why he has particular credibility on military issues. In case you were interested in the misreading bit, Democrats are Democrats, that's a noun. The adjective is Democratic. This is not trivial or nitpicking because the Republicans have been very deliberate and very successful at using Democrat as an adjective because Democratic sounds like democratic and that sounds good to a lot of people, though "Democrat" as an adjective does have a legit history as well in the South, as a couple of people point out here.

danking

Clinton: Immediate Iraq Exit a Mistake

I wonder why Hillary is questioning Murtha's patriotism and mischaracterizing his position.

ROTFLMAO!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051121/ap_on_go_co/hillary_clinton_iraq

Mescalero

So Valerie Plame is a "so-called" CIA operative according to that well-known inteligence operative Josh Marshall. Horse Shit! I've been in the gov't business for most of my career, Josh, and you have not, and I've known many CIA analysts who came clean about their employment. Joe Wilson, who hasn't and won't come clean about his contradictory blurbs about his less than illuminating bundoggle to Niger to sip tea with that country's leaders non-business relationships with Saddam "the Nazi" Hussein hasn't figured out that his days of fantasy are numbered. When and if (and that's a big if) Joe Wilson comes clean the entire fantasy configured by Howard Stalin-Dean will come completely unglued! It won't be the first time that Demo-Stalino-Fascism gets smashed into the dirt by the facts!

topsecretk9

Democrat as an adjective because Democratic sounds like democratic and that sounds good to a lot of people,

this whole argument (that is truly silly) grew from some sort of strange paranoiac like insecurity that assumed the connotation was negative...the rest of us really only saw tomato vs. tomAto (a few understandably exploited this insecurity)...just an FYI.

Boris, Sue, Kate, now that Jeff the "Omnipotent One" has spoken...have you lost all hope in yourselves yet? (insert my exaggerated concerned tone here)

Lew Clark

Anyone that has been around the "business" for any time knows Woodward is a "Naval Intel Spy Plant Operative Spy Intel Covert Clandestine Plant Spy". However he is not operational at this time. When he is operational he uses his cover identity of Valerie P. Woodward, not Bob Woodward so that even the most skilled spy-breaker could never blow his cover. Unless it's Scooter, of course.

topsecretk9

Sue--

Levey. my Eggo, you silly?

topsecretk9

Lew-
"Red Fox Rove" is his inside "post" Naval Intel Spy Plant Operative Spy Intel Covert Clandestine Plant Spy "COVER"

Daddy

You say Democrat, I say Democratic,
You say Republicans, I say Reaganonomics,
Donkey's, Elephant's,
Packaderms, Pack a worms,
Oh lets call the whole thing off....

Toast says pejorative, Jeff says provocative
Sue says kurfunkle, Boris says "WTF???"
TM says Armitage in the West Wing
with Bob Woodward
Oh lets call the whole thing off...

But oh...if we call the whole thing off
Then Scooter walks...
And oh...if Scooter Libby walks,
Then that might break Chris Mathews heart..

So if Fitz says subpoena and New York Times say 1st Amendment,
Pinch'll yield to subpoena, and screw the First Amendment,
For we, know he needs to make Rove do the Frogwalk,
better call the calling off 'off' oh..,
Fire Judy Miller and call the whole thing off.

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