Karl Is Back! (Or, He Is Going To Jail)

It's the NY Times versus Raw Story in a battle of journalistic titans.  From the Times:

Rove Is More His Old Self at the White House
By ANNE E. KORNBLUT

WASHINGTON, Nov. 10 - The architect, it seems, is back.

Hunkered down for almost all of October while a grand jury considered his fate, Karl Rove has rebounded as a visible presence at the White House over the last two weeks, according to administration officials and Republican colleagues. He is running meetings and pursuing candidates for the 2006 elections - and, associates say, devising long-term political plans that suggest he does not believe he will face future legal trouble despite the C.I.A. leak investigation in which he has been involved.

..."I've noticed a big difference," said one Republican in regular contact with Mr. Rove who declined to speak for attribution because the White House did not authorize it. "There's a spring in his step, more focus, more - something. Some sort of weight off his shoulders." 

It's November on the calendar, but it's springtime in his heart!  Geez, why doesn't the Times hire someone from American Greetings to write this stuff?

Let's cut to Raw Story.  They have had some hits and misses covering this Plame case, and yes, "Raw" may be an underestimate of their cooking time - "Half-baked" might be a more accurate title - but let's see what they've got:

Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald will soon conclude his investigation into whether President Bush’s deputy chief of staff Karl Rove gave false statements to a grand jury investigating the leak of a covert CIA agent, attorneys close to the case say.

According to lawyers familiar with the case, Fitzgerald is trying to convince the grand jury that Rove made false statements during the three times he testified under oath and misleading statements to Justice Department and FBI investigators when he was first interviewed about his role in the leak in October 2003.

The attorneys told RAW STORY that Fitzgerald has called Rove’s former personal assistant, Susan B. Ralston -- who was also a special assistant to President Bush -- to testify before the grand jury for a third time, perhaps as early as Monday. She is not said to be in legal jeopardy.

...

Ralston previously worked as a personal secretary to Jack Abramoff, the Republican power lobbyist being investigated for allegations of defrauding Indian tribes who was recently indicted on conspiracy and wire fraud charges. While working with Abramoff, Ralston arranged fundraisers and events at Washington MCI Center skyboxes for members of Congress. Ralston communicated  with Rove on Abramoff’s behalf on tribal affairs, though she is not accused of wrongdoing.

Fitzgerald wants to question Ralston again about several telephone calls Rove allegedly made to a few reporters, including syndicated columnist Robert Novak, lawyers close to the investigation say. Novak first disclosed the identity of undercover CIA agent Valerie Plame Wilson in his July 14, 2003 column.

Furthermore, the attorneys said that Fitzgerald wants Ralston to clarify some of her previous testimony regarding statements she made about a phone call Rove had with Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper.

Ralston testified that Cooper’s name was not noted in the call logs from Rove’s office, those familiar with the case say.

Ralston told the grand jury that Cooper’s call to Rove was transferred to Rove’s office by the White House switchboard. She testified that the call was not logged by Rove’s office because Cooper had not called Rove’s office directly.

Sources say that Fitzgerald has obtained documentary evidence proving that scenario does not jibe with other unrelated calls to Rove’s office that were also transferred to his office by the switchboard but were logged.

Oh, boy.  First, the grand jury that heard the original testimony has expired.  If Fitzgerald is pursuing this, he must have read back transcripts of the relevant material to an existing grand jury, and they must be begging for the book-on-tape version about now.  Not all the US sanctioned torture is happening in Eastern Europe.

And what about this Susan Ralston, who is, I have no doubt, a great American?  Worked for Abramoff, worked for Rove, worked for Bush, saw a fellow aide, Hernandez, get elevated to Assistant Secretary of Commerce - who butters her bread?

And why would her story change?  She has testified twice already, and we are told that "She is not said to be in legal jeopardy".  Well, if she goes in and testifies that, contrary to her two earlier accounts, she now remembers Karl running out with an eraser and doctoring the phone logs, I would say she will be in legal jeopardy - perjury and obstruction come to mind.

Or does she have immunity?  Then what is Fitzgerald's leverage, exactly - are we supposed to believe she has been lying up to now, but will be overcome by honesty if she gets immunity?

Oh, wait - maybe the new evidence will force her to crack:

Sources say that Fitzgerald has obtained documentary evidence proving that scenario does not jibe with other unrelated calls to Rove’s office that were also transferred to his office by the switchboard but were logged.

That should be a compelling exchange - let's picture it:

Fitzgerald:  Ms. Ralston, your testimony is that there was some sort of mistake in logging that Cooper call.

Ralston:  Yes, sir.

Fitzgerald:  But we have documentary proof - proof - that it is very unusual for you to make this sort of mistake.

Ralston:  I say the same thing in my annual review, I hardly ever make mistakes, but I still never get the raise I want.

We'll see.  We had more on Karl's problems with a missing email here.

Comments

[kim]

This scheme of Joe and al was surely half-baked. It fell flat right out of the oven, but is now up and running. Run, run, run, as fast as you can go. We can't catch you, you're the Gingerbread Joe.
===============================================

[kim]

He is a naughty man. I'm sure the twins are on to him, and chastising him. Out of the mouths of babes.
=================================================

[kim]

Getting reporters to tell the truth(how ironic) is key to this case and Fitz is prevented from doing so. This may be the only way he has to crack the case open. But, I am at least a little dismayed by his apparent failure to see the forest for the trees. However, we're occasionally reminded of his habit of felling one tree at a time. Does anyone now how his investigations in Illinois interacted with journalists? It's not analagous, because I doubt that the press was so entwined in that story as this one, but it might be helpful for understanding the Fitz and MSM gestalt. Surely a leak to a reporter about a coming mosque bust isn't his only experience with the press.
=========================================

[Kate]

The New York Times is probably the only publication that is getting good info from the Prosecutor's office. Even the Washington Post's reporting on this story has not been great. They were reporting possible multiple indictments on the 28th.

As to Raw Story, if Fitzgerald has borrowed a Grand Jury wouldn't a more, er, reputable media outlet know about that.

Could Fitzgerald just be reinterviewing Rove's assistant.

The noise about Rove has decreased the last few days. That along with Rove's speech makes me believe that Rove will be cleared shortly.

Plus the lunatics like Matthews are convinced that Cheney ordered Libby to out Plame and possibly have her killed. There was no innocent explanation for their discussion, like who sent Wilson since we're being blamed.

[kim]

I'll bet Libby's charges get dropped, too. I suspect Fitz has had a real education watching his case fall apart in the last week.
=============================================

[kim]

Vallely and Mitchell are like the matched couple atop the centerpiece at the reception. Watch the whole crowd get rowdy; let them eat cake. Only when everyone's sated may you pitch bits of icing. That's the primary rule of elegant after food fighting.
==========================================

[p.lukasiak]

And why would her story change? She has testified twice already, and we are told that "She is not said to be in legal jeopardy". Well, if she goes in and testifies that, contrary to her two earlier accounts, she now remembers Karl running out with an eraser and doctoring the phone logs, I would say she will be in legal jeopardy - perjury and obstruction come to mind.

why the assumption that Ralston's story has changed? Lets not forget that it was widely reported that absent some last minute machinations by Rove and Luskin, ol' Turdblossom was going to be indicted.

One certainly needs to consider the possibility that all Fitzgerald wants to do is have Ralston re-affirm her testimony at this point in light of whatever Luskin told FitzG at the last minute.

(One scenario.... Rove makes a last minute claim that can be co-oborated by Ralston if she changes her original testimony. Ralston's tells the FBI that she doesn't remember---she doesn't change her story, but leaves open the possibility. Documentary evidence is found that refreshes her memory, and she maintains her original story.)

[kim]

Any speculation what Rove let Fitz on to at the last minute?
===========================================

[TM]

Any speculation what Rove let Fitz on to at the last minute?

Well, IIRC, at the very end Fitzgerald was apparently re-interviewing Levine, in the press office, who spoke to Karl a few hours after the Cooper call.

The upshot was that Rove did not mention Cooper to Levine, which buttressed Karl's "I forgot" story.

[TP]

I don't think Fitz leaks, but I do think the Abramoff thing is going to be a nagging problem for the WH. It might be time to have Karl go take over the fundraising and the brain part of the 2006 election after the devastating defeat (sarcasm intended) suffered in the off year election. Given their current sense of elation, even the Democrats might be dazzled by that lateral arabesque.

[Dwilkers]

Rove certainly needs to get his butt back to work, with Bush's poll numbers somewhere south of 40% and freefalling.

And I agree TM, your analysis pretty much makes the Raw Story take look silly.

Whatever. After a week or so of reading the indictment and thinking about that and what he said in his press conference Fitz's poll numbers in my household are plummeting faster than Bush's.

[Dwilkers]

Wow it happened again. I posted that after editing it a tiny bit and the edit didn't take after preview. /ponder

[Kate]

p-lukasiak, keep hope alive. You haven't gotten the memo. The left wants Cheney now, not Rove.

If Fitzgerald didn't feel his indictment was not strong enough after 22 months, we can assume a late hit Fitzgerald indictment of Rove will be very controversial. Probably a 2 count false statement indictment.

Let the games begin.

[Kate]

What did Raw Story get right. I think they got the story about Libby's notes about meeting with Cheney right, but that was an advance notice of a New York Times story.

[Jim E.]

Kate,
Did you write that Chris Matthews speculated that Cheney wanted to murder Plame??? On what day did he say that? Matthews is a nut, but that doesn't sound right -- even for him. Can you elaborate?

[kim]

You're probably right about the late Rove news, but I keep hoping it was tapes of Joe being sinister.

And surely they exist.
===================================================

[Kate]

Jim, no he didn't say that. According to Matthews, the outing from Cheney was purposeful. Any danger to Plame or her contacts was be a consequence of any outing. I'm just reflecting Matthew's tendency to spin the innocent as evil and a conspiracy.

For instance, Matthews is quite open that he believes that at the meeting between Cheney and Libby, Cheney told Libby to tell the reporters about Plame. The follow on to that would be that Cheney and Libby purposely put Plame and her contacts in danger. The left says this outright, Matthews implies it.

My argument is that Cheney and his chief of staff met often and proably the Wilson trip was on their agenda during that timeframe. That is not unusual or evil, it is just routine.

[Neo]

In a case where the original objective was to pursue a situation that (reportedly) put the national security at jeopardy, you'd think that maybe just maybe getting to the bottom of the story would be more important than putting people into a "false statements gotcha".
They should all be offered immunity from perjury and false statement prosecution with the proviso that they can and will be called back before the grand jury until the story fits together correctly; sort of an imprisonment by grand jury. Frankly, I think they should have done the same thing with all the Clinton scandals.
Instead we get this "repeat til fail" strategy by the prosecutor.

Instead of truth, we get much less.

[TM]

You are looking for logic? In Washington, everything is criminalized. By now, of course, the defendants have learned to turn that to their advantage, sweeping everything under grand jury secrecy and, in this case, kicking it past the 2004 election.

As minority party it would not have been easy to force it, but for the Dems, the better road would have been wide grants of immunity and Congressional hearings - that would have delivered the full embarrassment factor in the spring of 2004.

Of course, it's not completely clear who would have been embarrassed.

Whatever. The Dems were so gleeful when they got the criminal referral that hearings were never pursued.

And I am not sure what strategy Rep House or Senate leaders would have followed in early 2004 - insist that the criminal justice aproach be allowed to play out (i.e., hide and delay), or hope for quick hearings to end the suspense.

Water over the dam now.

[epphan]

In supporting that scenario, Matthews is, indeed, saying that Cheney wanted Plame murdered.

[Jim E.]

"As minority party it would not have been easy to force it..."

That's an understatement. I would say it would be "impossible."

And in terms of offering immunity, one could make the opposite argument based on the Iran-Contra stuff. Convictions were thrown out (right-winger judge Silberman was part of this) due to the congressional investigation. Had they been able to, the Dems surely would have called for an investigation.

[Jim E.]

But if the concern is merely politics, rather than truth & justice & the American way, then, yeah, congressional hearings would be a no brainer. But that was an impossibility with the parliamentarian, rather than checks-and-balances, government we seem to have now.

But with creeping lame-duck-ism, maybe that will change.

[p.lukasiak]

As minority party it would not have been easy to force it, but for the Dems, the better road would have been wide grants of immunity and Congressional hearings - that would have delivered the full embarrassment factor in the spring of 2004.

Why grants of immunity? After all, the White House was saying it had nothing to hide, everyone had signed waivers....

...under those circumstances, anyone who showed up and pleaded the Fifth would be out of a job --- and the press would have gone nuts speculating about a criminal conspiracy.

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

After what I heard this morning on the always wacky ABC radio news, I believe Rove is back:

White House says: "Pre-war intel; 'Strong but Wrong'"

[Mike]

Forgive me for somewhat having a reaction to the 'Mitchell' post yesterday and the merits of Fitz's case against Libby, but Fitzgerald's press conference should have opened thusly:

At various times during my career, I have taken an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States. After my investigation, I have concluded that the first principle at law here is that the American people have a right to freedom of political speech. When those associated with the CIA allege facts learned in CIA operations, the individuals involved become a potential part of a political discussion. If these individuals are only brought up under the color of discussion of a public policy issue, the various acts protecting intelligence agents would still apply. There are no indictments. Any questions?

[p.lukasiak]

p-lukasiak, keep hope alive. You haven't gotten the memo. The left wants Cheney now, not Rove.

the left wants both. Hell, the left wants to see the entire White House staff frog marched out of the building in unison, and would bring in the striking Radio City Music Hall orchestra to provide musical accompaniment for the spectacle.

[Kate]

Would Rove plead to a misdeameanor charge of false swearing. I believe he would have to surrender his security clearance in this case.

[richard mcenroe]

If Raw Story could be right, Fitzgerald could only be considering filing against Rove AFTER he sees whether the same sorts of charges fly against Libby. In which case, look for this to hang on another 6 mos - 1 year.

Sorry Tom.

[p.lukasiak]

Would Rove plead to a misdeameanor charge of false swearing. I believe he would have to surrender his security clearance in this case.

...and lose his job.

I think that Rove's problem is that his "I've heard that too" explanation for his conversation with Novak leaves open a whole host of other questions. Since Novak's story was not about Wilson's wife being CIA, but about her involvement in Wilson's trip, the question has to be asked "Where did Rove hear about that involvement."

[epphan]

Since when is where Rove heard about that involvement a problem for Rove? For Scoots maybe, but not Rove. Unless he lied about it. But if he had, he wouldn't be giving speeches right now.

[Ex Democrat]

Rove is in the clear and back in full force...and the lefties can't stand it. Get ready Libs to be assaulted with the wrath of Rove like never before!!!!

[Gary Maxwell]

that was an impossibility with the parliamentarian, rather than checks-and-balances, government we seem to have now.

OK I get it. The Republicans are acting like they have a majority in both houses and chairs of all committees and control the gavel and the agenda. Very very bad. I wonder where they learned this appalling behavior of ignoring the minority, HINT after about 40 years of minority status?

But you're right we really should get along. And when the minority leader of the Senate calls the President a liar, we should overlook it. And when he grandstands by putting the Senate in executive session without a courtesy warning, why that was appropriate behavior and should not be reacted to in any way. Where is the bipartisanship that the American people yearn for? Those bad parliamentarian Roberts Rules of Order Repubs have just ruined it all - with no help from an obstructionist and bile spewing minority, right up to their leaders.

By the way the poll I saw this morning had the Dems in Congress getting an even lower ranking from the public than Reps did. Both were low but I dont see how you overcome incumbency and its bedfellow partisan gerrymandering with obstructionist behavior. Good luck with the 06 campaign though, we seem to be trying our best to let you back in the game, I will currently admit.

[JayDee]

Hmm, not sure what poll you saw, GM, but it wasn't the recent ABC/WaPo poll

To the contrary:

A new ABC/Washington Post poll finds that voters favor the Democrats over Republicans on almost every issue.

The survey is good news for the Democratic Party as next year's congressional elections approach. In fact, 55 percent of those polled said they would like to see the party in control of Congress and 52 percent say they plan to vote for a Democrat compared to 37 percent for a Republican.

Asked about 10 different issues, respondents said that the Democrats would do a better job than Republicans on all except terrorism, where the parties split evenly. The Democrats' biggest margins were in the economy, health care social security and education.

Sixty percent of those polled said the Democrats are more open to ideas of political moderates compared to 24 percent for Republicans.

The problem you guys have is not one of perception but the fact that Americans have decided to take their thumbs out of their mouths and behave like adults. We let ourselves be terrifed by a Big Daddy style of government, and we're waking up to the reality that we've mortgaged our futures to a bunch who is, at best, dishonest, and at worst, moronically incompetent.

[The Heretik]

We come at these topics from completely polar and opposite directions, but as we pass each other each on our way to our separate conclusions, you invariably make me laugh. Hosannas to you for having some ha, ha in these low times of the high and mighty.

[TexasToast]

It's November on the calendar, but it's springtime in his heart! Geez, why doesn't the Times hire someone from American Greetings to write this stuff?

At the risk of a Godwin violation (but a good joke is hard to pass up), it does remind one of “Springtime for Hitler” from The Producers (the link refused to take).

Germany was having trouble
What a sad, sad story
Needed a new leader to restore
Its former glory
Where, oh, where was he?
Where could that man be?
We looked around and then we found
The man for you and me

LEAD TENOR STORMTROOPER:
And now it's...
Springtime for Hitler and Germany
Deutschland is happy and gay!
We're marching to a faster pace
Look out, here comes the master race!
Springtime for Hitler and Germany
Rhineland's a fine land once more!
Springtime for Hitler and Germany
Watch out, Europe
We're going on tour!

[Syl]

The Dems have the edge on economics issues?

Yep, their policy of keeping Americans poor and stupid has worked.

Me, I'm pissed that we're not drilling ANWR yet.

[Seven Machos]

So, for JayZeeDee: when Americans vote Democrat, and for bigger government and more free stuff and to keep less of their money, they are acting like adults. When they vote Republican, for smaller government and to keep more of their own money, they have "their thumbs out of their mouths."

Also, remind me again, since you are such a seer, JayZeeDee: is the Bush administration "moronically incompetent" or ingenuous at "Big Daddy style" government and keeping people fooled? Today is Friday, so keep that in mind when you make your decision.

[JayDee]

Their policy of keeping America poor and stupid? Syl, why is it so hard for you to remember our ONE PARTY government is Republican! Are pubs psychologically incapable of accepting responsibility for ANY of their own actions?

What real people are feeling right now is a major pinch. Junk jobs, decline in real income, staggering energy costs, hopelessness about paying for their kids' college, spiralling health care costs and in many cases, no access at all to affordable health insurance. What the Pub elitists usually respond with are irrelevancies like GDP or unemployment statistics. To paraphrase a poster on here the other day - We don' need no stinkin' statistics! People know very well how the economy is hitting them. Fox News playing Baghdad Bob about it doesn't mean a damn when compared to one's own all too real economic hardship.

But that's probably why most Americans polled also say Republicans care less than Democrats about "people like me".

[Seven Machos]

On edit: thumbs in their mouths

[Seven Machos]

"Junk jobs, decline in real income, staggering energy costs, hopelessness about paying for their kids' college, spiralling health care costs"

Which of these things was not a problem under Clinton, Carter, Johnson, Kennedy, Truman, or Eisenhower?

Junk jobs? The WPA comes to mind. Dems are certainly no strangers to staggering UNemployment, either.

Decline in real income? In the 1970s? Never?

Staggering energy costs? Fop cit.

Hopelessness about paying for their kids' college? More kids go to college (percentage and real numbers) today than ever before in the history of the world. This one is particularly weak.

Spiralling health care costs? This wasn't a problem under Clinton?

I'm beginning to think that JayZeeDee likes to spew hate against Republicans, and foist all problems onto Republicans, forgetting that life under Democratic administrations was rife with the same and often more problems. It's kind of like JyZeeDee doesn't care about solving the problems, as long as his party has power.

[Seven Machos]

Eisenhower? Christ. where is my mind? Roosevelt.

[TM]

From Richard Mcenroe:

Fitzgerald could only be considering filing against Rove AFTER he sees whether the same sorts of charges fly against Libby.

Very good point, which I have not seen elsewhere (But I may steal it - plagiarism alert!)

This is a weird spot for Rove, who would have to resign upon indictment - even if he is acquited, he can't go back to the White Hosue as an adviser to Hillary. His career pinnacle is now.

So if his indictment can be delayed until the Libby trial is over, that is a win for him.

But can Libby push his trial back to 2007, and skip the next elections? I have no idea.

Setting aside the election, the passage of time may fuzz up everybody's memory - if all the other bulbs in the tree are dim, Libby's darkness will be less, uh, glaring.

My Metaphor Masher is acting up again...

[Libs R. Traitors]

President Bush, in his speech earlier today, finally answered these critics directly:

While it is perfectly legitimate to criticize my decision or the conduct of the war, it is deeply irresponsible to rewrite the history of how that war began. Some Democrats and anti-war critics are now claiming we manipulated the intelligence and misled the American people about why we went to war.

These critics are fully aware that a bipartisan Senate investigation found no evidence of political pressure to change the intelligence community's judgments related to Iraq's weapons programs. They also know that intelligence agencies from around the world agreed with our assessment of Saddam Hussein. They know the United Nations passed more than a dozen resolutions citing his development and possession of weapons of mass destruction. Many of these critics supported my opponent during the last election, who explained his position to support the resolution in the Congress this way: 'When I vote to give the President of the United States the authority to use force, if necessary, to disarm Saddam Hussein, it is because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a threat, and a grave threat, to our security.' That's why more than 100 Democrats in the House and the Senate, who had access to the same intelligence voted to support removing Saddam Hussein from power.

The stakes in the global War on Terror are too high, and the national interest is too important, for politicians to throw out false charges. These baseless attacks send the wrong signal to our troops and to an enemy that is questioning America's will. As our troops fight a ruthless enemy determined to destroy our way of life, they deserve to know that their elected leaders who voted to send them to war continue to stand behind them. Our troops deserve to know that this support will remain firm when the going gets tough. And our troops deserve to know that whatever our differences in Washington, our will is strong, our Nation is united, and we will settle for nothing less than victory.

[Gary Maxwell]

Amen and about time

[Dwilkers]

"Fitzgerald could only be considering filing against Rove AFTER he sees whether the same sorts of charges fly against Libby."

I doubt it.

If I were Libby's attorney I'd be shooting for a jury verdict on January 15th, 2009. And he can certainly drag this out as long as he wants with motions on all manner of BS.

I think if Fitz thinks he has a case against Rove, he'll file it. If not, he won't, but I don't think it has much to do directly with the case against Libby.

I DO think its possible he's trying to roast Libby to get him to roll over on someone else that is his real target though - and I suppose that could be Rove, but I kinda doubt it. More likely in my mind at least is that he suspects this was actually a conspiracy and he's after Cheney. Certainly there has to be some reason for all the apparent conflicts as has been discussed here.

[Gary Maxwell]

Opinion Dynamics Poll of yesterday
Poll of Registered Voters
partisan breakdown 38% d 36% R 26% I

Do you approve or disapprove of the Job Democrats in Congress are doing ?
Approve 33%

Do you approve or disapprove of the job Republicans are doing ?
Approve 34%

[epphan]

It's sounding more and more like the White House got good news from Fitz this week.

[arrowhead]

Syl - "Yep, [the Dem's] policy of keeping Americans poor and stupid has worked.

Me, I'm pissed that we're not drilling ANWR yet."

Same here. What the heck is going on with these RHINOS in Congress?
=====================================
Glad Rove is back in action!

Great speech by the Pres. this morning. We need a lot more of the same.

[TM]

Deutschland is happy and gay!

Well, now I know we aren't singing about Karl.

[arrowhead]

Make that "RINOS" (although they do exhibit some of the same characteristics of the other spelling).

[JayDee]

These critics are fully aware that a bipartisan Senate investigation found no evidence of political pressure to change the intelligence community's judgments related to Iraq's weapons programs.

What the holy hail is he talking about here? The report we don't have or the one Rockefeller was talking about here:

That's not to say that there aren't areas of disagreement; there are, especially on the question of whether the administration pressured the intelligence community to reach predetermined, in my judgment, conclusions.

And I have to say, that there is a real frustration over what is not in this report, and I don't think was mentioned in Chairman Roberts' statement, and that is about the -- after the analysts and the intelligence community produced an intelligence product, how is it then shaped or used or misused by the policy-makers?

... So again there's genuine frustration -- and Chairman Roberts and I have discussed this many times -- that virtually everything that has to do with the administration has been relegated to phase two. My hope is that we will get this done as soon as possible.

Great new tactic for a true coward - Mommy, they did it too!!!! And how hilarious that they've got him pretending he's still back running against Kerry! Yeah, this will work with the now 59% of Americans who believe Bush LIED us into a war they HATE. Just whine and blame the Dems. People really respect that kind of courage.

He might want to check though if it's only Dems who are anti-war

TODAY, Hagel Says Democrats Are Right To Demand Probe Into Pre-War Intelligence Manipulation. Discussing last week's closed Senate session that led to the long-awaited advancement of "Phase Two" of the Senate Intelligence Committee's investigation into prewar intelligence, Sen. Chuck Hagel said yesterday, "I think the Democrats had a valid point...This has been frustrating." Hagel added, "There are very legitimate and critical questions that need to be answered. [...] That is the responsibility of governance. That's part of leadership. And we don't have answers for all those things."Cue the Hagel bashing.

Amazing that this guy who spent the Vietnam War poolside getting drunk even has the nerve to show his face on Veterans Day.

[epphan]

I'm shocked! Shocked I tell you. JD doesn't buy it! Too bad. Prez is right, you are wrong. But you're right about one thing. Those veterans almost booed him out of the room. They hate him. Dang coward. I guess they are smart like you.

[JayDee]

Don't be silly, epphan. All Bush audiences are screened and 100% vetted. He's real brave like that.

[Harry Arthur]

Amazing that this guy who spent the Vietnam War poolside getting drunk even has the nerve to show his face on Veterans Day. ??

Now the "chicken hawk" argument applies to Veterans Day?

This does not portend well for a Hillary presidency.

I hope it's OK for me to express my support for both Veterans and active duty personnel not to mention the GWOT. Or perhaps I may have spent too much time around the pool myself during the Viet Nam "era".

[JayDee]

Dunno, HA. Depends on if your elitist Daddy bought you out of the war you wholeheartedly supported, that killed 60,000 of your generation.

[epphan]

So, JD, is it your contention that most veterans dislike GW? I had heard that. I think Chris Matthews said it last night. Enjoy your democrat NJ governor. Who thought there would come a day when NJ would have a democrat governor. Yippee.

[TexasToast]

"While it is perfectly legitimate to criticize my decision or the conduct of the war, it is deeply irresponsible to rewrite the history of how that war began. Some Democrats and anti-war critics are now claiming we manipulated the intelligence and misled the American people about why we went to war." - GWB - today

"It is unpleasing to represent our affairs to our own disadvantage; yet it is necessary to shew the evils which we desire to be removed." - Dr. Johnson

Sorry, Mr. President, history is being rewritten all the time. In fact, historiography is “… the methodology and practices of writing history. In a more specific sense, it can refer to writing about rather than of history. As a meta-level analysis of descriptions of the past, this latter conception can relate to the former in that the analysis usually focuses on the narrative, interpretations, worldview, use of evidence, or method of presentation of other historians.”

It is no sin to investigate, question, interpret, study and analize the reasons we went to war, both what they were and what you want us to believe they were. The sin is saying that those of us who want to study this history are somehow unpatriotic. As Dr. Johnson also said, “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.”

[BumperStickerist]

Amazing that this guy who spent the Vietnam War poolside getting drunk even has the nerve to show his face on Veterans Day. ??

Flying an F102 while hungover and, presumably, with a case of swimmer's ear gets Bush the Veteran's pass for Veteran's Day.

and I say that as a USAF vet.

My understanding is that Clinton was the first Tuskegee Airman President.

.

[p.lukasiak]

"There's a spring in his step, more focus, more - something. Some sort of weight off his shoulders."

ENZYTE!
(The once-daily tablet for Natural Male Enhancement)

or maybe its:

ENDFITZ! (The once daily dissemination of anti-indictment talking points to TM)

***********************

But that's probably why most Americans polled also say Republicans care less than Democrats about "people like me".

I blame the media. If they would only stop printing and broadcasting facts, the American people would still support the GOP.

*********************

As for Bush's speech. Bad move. The American people know they were "lied" to --- and aren't exactly kindly disposed to Congress or the self-serving conclusions of its committee.

Trying to pass the buck for his own exaggerations, distortions, and misrepresentations of existing intelligence to the American people isn't gonna cut it. If anything, its going to make him look smaller in the eyes of the American people.

[dblaiseb]

Hundreds of Flag Bags are killed by careless drivers on our highways every year. Yet, so few of our drivers (and touring cyclists) actually have the courage to accept their responsibility as mobile citizens and get out there and put their lives on the line striping the double yellow, tamping hot macadam or making that palms-down motion with both arms.

JayDee, until I see you ought there sporting an OSHA Orange vest, with leathery skin and a Tarryton 100 dangling out of your mouth, I hope you stay out of the Prius.

Don't be an Interstate Chickenhawk!

[Kate]

OK...I'm not getting that Fitzgerald is going after Cheney. I listened to the press conference and he said his work is substantially done and he specifically cited that Cheney did nothing wrong.

I think this is just a case of Fitzgerald going after Libby for perjury...I also think Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.

[epphan]

And, TexasToast, that is exactly why you will always be on the losing end...yet never understand why.

[arrowhead]

"It is no sin to investigate, question, interpret, study and analize the reasons we went to war, both what they were and what you want us to believe they were."

Spoken like a true advocate of revisionist history.

[p.lukasiak]

Spoken like a true advocate of revisionist history.

Yup, them Injuns got what was coming to them, trying to steal the land god gave the White Man.

[Harry Arthur]

Dunno, HA. Depends on if your elitist Daddy bought you out of the war you wholeheartedly supported, that killed 60,000 of your generation. heh?

Just for the record "my elitist daddy" retired from the Navy as a Chief Petty Officer after having served in Naval combat in both WWII and Korea. He passed away years later while working at the Naval Post Graduate School for much less than his skills could have demanded had he not loved the Navy so.

As for me, I voluntarily served 25 years as an Army warrant officer aviator including one tour in Viet Nam (for which I volunteered), two in Korea and one in Germany, among other places, protecting you from the evil empire. I admittedly did spend some time around our "pool" in Phu Loi between flying missions supplying our soldiers doing the really hard job out in the field. Unfortunately I must also confess to having imbided a bit excessively from time to time.

As for this Veteran, I don't have any problem with the fact that George Bush flew fighters in the TANG during Viet Nam.

Bumper, I never fail to learn something from you. Thanks for cluing me in on the Tuskegee Airman thing. :-)

[JayDee]

And, TexasToast, that is exactly why you will always be on the losing end...yet never understand why.

Hope you put lots of salt and pepper on those words, otherwise it will be even harder when you have to choke them down.

[TM]

at best, dishonest, and at worst, moronically incompetent.

I thought Libby was "moronically dishonest".

[boris]

Yup, them Injuns got what was coming to them, trying to steal the land god gave the White Man.

Did you forget to add the smiley or is the tin foil leaking again?

[Gary Maxwell]

Whoa that sure is a lot of bravado out of a bunch of Dems this morning, both here and on the tube. I wonder if they are really just whistling past the graveyard, trying to put as brave a face on as possible, since its just dawned on them that their stinger missle missed Karl Rove. the speech yesterday aleted them he is now back in position to use his mind control rays and is damn pissed off about the attempted hit.

[Rick Ballard]

JD,

Make a prediction on the coming Dem sweep. How many House and Senate seats do you think the mighty Dem machine will carry in 2006?

You might ask Ann Richards, Garry Mauro, Al Gore and John Kerry what they think the odds are of beating a Rove lead campaign before you go out on a limb.

[Patrick R. Sullivan]

'Depends on if your elitist Daddy bought you out of the war you wholeheartedly supported, that killed 60,000 of your generation. heh?'

By signing up to learn to fly fighter planes that were at the time being flown in Vietnam by pilots from the squadron you joined, in 1968?

That would be the year of the Tet Offensive and the capture of the Pueblo. The year 14,000 Americans died in combat. Thanks, Daddy.

Or did you mean that W's Daddy helped get Nixon elected that fall, and he Vietnamized the war the following year? So that by the time W was combat capable in 1970 pilots were coming home from Vietnam, not being sent there. Who knew HW was such a master Machiavellian?

[boris]

There was no waiting list for qualified pilot candidates. The F-102 was a dangerous plane to fly. The BS about GW and the TANG is as phoney as the memos.

[topsecretk9]

As for Bush's speech. Bad move. The American people know they were "lied" to --- and aren't exactly kindly disposed to Congress or the self-serving conclusions of its committee.

Wow, Pluk...you do have a mighty big rolodex. Fitzgerald AND the American people.

As for bad move, I suspect your side will come to view it as such, in a roundabout way. Silence on the matter until now has served Bush well. Much to your chagrine, when troops start making their way home next year, those quotes will make for some interesting campaigning.This was just the start.

[Syl]

This is my fave:

The American people know they were "lied" to

by the Democrats and the media!

Other than that, you got it, p.luk.

[p.lukasiak]

As for this Veteran, I don't have any problem with the fact that George Bush flew fighters in the TANG during Viet Nam.

I agree. Let face it, just about everyone wanted to avoid being drafted and sent to Vietnam, and to excorciate Bush for doing what just about every member of his generation wished they could do (pull a few strings) is just plain dumb.

No, my problem isn't that "Bush flew fighters in the TANG during Viet Nam." Its that Bush stopped flying them, after less than 30 months, after promising to do so for five years. And then disappeared for almost six months. And let his flight rating expire because he didn't get a physical. And for trying to get into a unit that he was decidedly unqualified to get into, because he was required to train for six years, and the unit he tried to transfer to didn't train at all.

Among other things....

[JayDee]

Gary, you might take note that not that many people are afraid of Rove's "mind control rays". He's a wounded little piggie now, and unless he really does have supernatural powers, he isn't going to be able to reverse the tectonic shift in war attitudes we are now seeing. If this speech was his opening salvo, he has officially lost his edge. Does he really want to open up that discussion about pre war intelligence?

If all Rove has is "seeing the same intelligence", it is going to be like shooting fish in a barrel. For starters, we'll take this: In the eyes of Kenneth Pollack, “a Clinton-era National Security Council member and strong supporter of regime change in Iraq,” “the Administration consistently engaged in ‘creative omission,’ overstating the imminence of the Iraqi threat, even though it had evidence to the contrary. ‘The President is responsible for serving the entire nation,’ Pollack writes. ‘Only the Administration has access to all the information available to various agencies of the US government – and withholding or downplaying some of that information for its own purposes is a betrayal of that responsibility.’” [Christian Science Monitor, 1/14/04]

The problem is Bush got used to lying in front of a sheeplike, terrified nation. Now he's going to try again in front of a nation of skeptical adults. I am actually starting to feel sorry for this guy, and I never thought that was possible.

[TP]

For some reason, I just keep geeting an image of Kerry's swift boat and all of its occupants swimming for the safety of Joe and Val's once cast away dinghy. The dinghy proudly displays the name "Narcissist of the Niger".

[Gary Maxwell]

Gary, you might take note

Bet me fat boy.

[p.lukasiak]

There was no waiting list for qualified pilot candidates. The F-102 was a dangerous plane to fly. The BS about GW and the TANG is as phoney as the memos.

1) the Air Force didn't maintain "waiting lists for qualified pilot candidates." You applied, and were either accepted (and assigned to an opening in the training program) or were rejected. There is no credible evidence, however, that there was anything approaching a shortage of qualified applicants -- the recruiters weren't telling people that there was a need for qualified pilots, and that the Air National Guard needed people willing to fly their jets.

2) The reputation of the F102 as "dangerous" is based on its record during its early years of service. By the time Bush started flying them, it was not considered an especially "dangerous" plane at all.

[p.lukasiak]

The problem is Bush got used to lying in front of a sheeplike, terrified nation. Now he's going to try again in front of a nation of skeptical adults.

I would posit that Bush's dishonest campaign to privatize Social Security (hyping a threat that was far less significant and "imminent" than what he presented, and proposing a solution that exacerbated the problem itself) played a key (if subconscious) role in Americans willingness to question why they had supported the war in the first place.

I mean "we have to deal with the threat to social security by privatizing it" is not the least bit different from "we have to deal with the terrorist threat by attacking Iraq."

You can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time, and when people realize that they are being played for a fool, well, um...."won't get fooled again" springs to mind.

[topsecretk9]

He's a wounded little piggie now, and unless he really does have supernatural powers, he isn't going to be able to reverse the tectonic shift in war attitudes we are now seeing.

Right here lies the lefts big problem. You don't even get that you walked into the trap. Your party has become a one message train. As the troops start coming home, you guys will be talking to a empty hall

Keep talking my friend. The piggy is counting on you.

[cathyf]

For anyone interested in getting a feel for what W did during The War (that would be WWIII) go to the video store and rent Fail-safe this weekend.

cathy :-)

[JayDee]

Oh, the Social Security debacle was key to the disarray and panic we're seeing now from this sheltered little princeling. I can remember telling people "I can't believe he's going to try this" and being amazed at how many people thought he had the power to sell something so profoundly unpopular....And ain't it funny how Social Security is no longer a big, looming disaster? I think his parents should have had his nannies read him The Boy Who Cried Wolf at bedtime. What's scary is that if the wolf ever does come, we're left with this charade of a presidency for the next three years.

[Kate]

Actually Social Security is a disasater waiting to happen. However, it will be yearas off so we don't need to deal with it now. Why deal with it now when you can put it off and leave it for our grandchildren to handle.

BTW-Murray Waas has a new article out on Rove and he's assuming that Rove will remain under scrutiny until Libby's trial.

Now, for all you legal types, if Fitzgerald had been under oath at his press conference when stating that he couldn't wait to get to Chicago would that be:

-perjury
-false statements
-false swearing

[Rick Ballard]

Kate,

Tap dancing without a license.

[Dwilkers]

Oh good movie Cathy. I just put it on my netflix queue. I've been trying to think of something good to watch and I haven't seen that one in a long time, so thanks.

Watched Dr. Strangelove recently. George C. Scott should have been knighted for that one.

[Harry Arthur]

Its that Bush stopped flying them ... Hate to say it but we've plowed this field over, and over, and over, and over, ... and there's no there ... there.

You might be interested in reviewing Byron York’s detailed article documenting conclusively that Bush in fact met his Guard obligations and then some prior to leaving the Guard. It's hard for me to believe we're still digressing in the political "discourse" of this nation to throwing these cow pies against the wall in the hope that something will stick.

As for the relative danger of flying any fighter, well I suppose that's in the eye of the beholder, or at least we pilots can express a difference of opinion on the subject. I'd submit that military operations in general, and training in particular, are uniquely dangerous affairs, even in peace time.

[p.lukasiak]

You might be interested in reviewing Byron York’s detailed article documenting conclusively that Bush in fact met his Guard obligations and then some prior to leaving the Guard.

As someone who studied the contemporaneous US Statutes, Department of Defense regulations, and US Air Force policies and procedures for four month in order to determine what Bush's military records actually meant within their proper context, I can say with any fear of contradiction that Byron York is full of shit.

[p.lukasiak]

Right here lies the lefts big problem. You don't even get that you walked into the trap. Your party has become a one message train. As the troops start coming home, you guys will be talking to a empty hall

someone should point out to you that American troops have been rotating in and out of Iraq for well over two years now, and although I'm not going to claim causality, the more troops return to the US, the more people strongly disapprove of Bush (up to 43% now.)

The might be empty...but only because we had to move the meeting to a football stadium to accomodate the crowds.

[p.lukasiak]

Now, for all you legal types, if Fitzgerald had been under oath at his press conference when stating that he couldn't wait to get to Chicago would that be:

-perjury
-false statements
-false swearing

I'm not sure Kate, but if you apply the same standard to our men and women in Iraq who stay there because they feel its important that the do their jobs, we'd have to build a lot more prisons.

[arrowhead]

"Now, for all you legal types, if Fitzgerald had been under oath at his press conference when stating that he couldn't wait to get to Chicago would that be:"

-perjury
-false statements
-false swearing

========================================

p.lukasiak - Let's apply the standard to all those on the left who say, "I don't support the war, but I support the troops."

Yeah, sure they do.

[Seven Machos]

The right is in disarray. Let's face facts. Usually, August is the left's big month, because everyone is on vacation. However, it has bled into November.

It seems like the Plame Non-scandal has really affected certain Republican leaders. Rove was on the ropes and so was the president. Delay's lack of leadership (while perhaps not bad in the long run) has caused a lack of cohesiveness. Whatever else you want to say about the guy, he was a hell of a cohesive force for Republican voting in the House.

Overall, I am not worried. The worse it over. The economy is in good shape. Iraq is slowly, slowly, slowly becoming a reasonable, sovereign state. The electorate has not suddenly shifted left. The biggest problem for the right, I think, isn't the Plame Non-Scandal or Iraq, it's that the leadership hasn't delivered on ONE SINGLE THING that it campaigned on. When Alito is confirmed and if the budget can be slashed, things will be fine, regardless of what happens to Libby or Rove.

I still don't think Rove will be indicted. It will be brilliant to get Rove out of the White House and into more of a fundraising position, but that can't happen just right now.

[JM Hanes]

JayDee -
Enjoy the moment while it lasts. Bush has managed to defy conventional polling wisdom so many times, his luck has got to run out one of these days, eh? How low do we have to go, I wonder, before Democrats figure out that making the Prez look bad isn't actually enough to win elections? Maybe three time's the charm; then again maybe you shouldn't be quite so determined to flame your bridges just because they look like they're behind you at the moment.

[topsecretk9]

oh cripes..the polling here too? Today was the dusting off the blue dress day...the "VAST MAJORITY" of the "AMERICAN PEOPLE" thought perjury by Clintons was really, really bad...but the same "VASTNESS" still didn't support impeachment...REMEMBER?

So if the "VAST MAJORITY" think Bush and the war is bad, the same
"VASTNESS" think we need to stay and finish the job.

The difference between Clinton and Bush, he doesn't live (or govern) by polls, you know why? THEY CHANGE.

[kim]

Well, JM, they've plamed at least one bridge to electoral salvation and that is the one that the Iraqi people are crossing right now. Millions, and more every day, are streaming across.
===============================================

[kim]

That's what's bugging Johnson. This was all supposed to be coming out in a Kerry administration, with Juan Cole predicting the day's news.
=====================================

[kim]

The appearance of the Swifties is enough to make one believe in miracles.
=======================================

[kim]

p.l.: I agree most of our soldiers have gotten a pretty raw deal. For instance, look what their services bring in the private marketplace. Commonly an order of magnitude different.

But unwillingness is not the factor you believe it is. This is not the '60's. These have not been drafted. When I opposed the war, before invasion, I fought many fierce battles with the wives of reservists. I even awarded one a ribbon afterwards. I understanad now their fervor. But, of course, they were right.

Someday you'll see what they see, and what the Iraqi people do.
===========================================

[kim]

This is one of the biggest bones I've to pick with Bush. Our military have been treated like dogs. They need to be better cared for.

Or if you've the other four-legged persuasion, they've been rode hard.
===================================================

[Kate]

Back to Karl-seems he's destined to hang out there until Libby's fate is determined.

There is always that chance that Rove's super secret memo to self will appear. The one where he admits that he has always harbored a secret, super-duper secret urge to out a CIA covert agent.

Unfortunately, he blundered upon the not-so-secret Flame, but even Rove can't bat a thousand.