My Goodness

James Taranto of the WSJ provides a partial answer to a query I posed months ago - when, if ever, did Andrea Mitchell report that Ms. Plame's employment at the CIA was widely known amongst reporters prior to the Novak column?

From Oct 3, 2003, on CNBC:

MURRAY And the second question is: Do we have any idea how widely known it was in Washington that Joe Wilson's wife worked for the CIA?

Mitchell: It was widely known among those of us who cover the intelligence community and who were actively engaged in trying to track down who among the foreign service community was the envoy to Niger. So a number of us began to pick up on that. But frankly I wasn't aware of her actual role at the CIA and the fact that she had a covert role involving weapons of mass destruction, not until Bob Novak wrote it.

Lexis demons are looking for more!

But let's enjoy a "Well, well" moment, and re-visit Mr. Libby's indictment to see what he said about his chat with Tim Russert:

LIBBY:  So then he said – I said – he said, sorry – he, Mr. Russert said to me, did you know that Ambassador Wilson's wife, or his wife, works at the CIA? And I said, no, I don't know that. And then he said, yeah – yes, all the reporters know it. And I said, again, I don't know that. I just wanted to be clear that I wasn't confirming anything for him on this...

Mr. Fitzgerald concludes this section as follows:

3. In truth and fact, as LIBBY well knew when he gave this testimony, it was false in that:

a. Russert did not ask LIBBY if LIBBY knew that Wilson’s wife worked for the CIA, nor did he tell LIBBY that all the reporters knew it; and...

Well, well.  Presumably Mr. Russert's testimony will not surprise Mr. Fitzgerald, so I am officially less intrigued by the parsing argument that so engaged me over the summer.

That said, it may well be the case that Mr. Russert did not tell Mr. Libby that all the reporters knew it.  But he could have!

Perhaps the defense will stage a bit of a show - put Ms. Mitchell on the stand and let her explain that she kept her boss in the dark about the Plame/CIA tidbit.  Put a few more reporters up there to admit they knew Ms. Plame was at the CIA.  Maybe give Mr. Russert an opportunity to explain that everybody knew except him - after all, he "may be the capital's most intimidating interlocutor", but all his colleagues kept him in the dark, right?  (I see Jack Nicholson playing Russert, shouting "You're damn right I ordered the Code Red").

Or perhaps Mr. Russert did know - he has been quite clear that he did not learn Ms. Wilson's name until he read Bob Novak's column, but a bit of a sphinx on other points.  So, if he did know, why *not* mention it to Libby?  Was he concerned that he might be leaking classified information to Mr. Libby?  Why the big secret?

The defense will be looking for reasonable doubt.  They may achieve total confusion.

MORE:  Ms. Michell is sagacious on the politics of this outing and criminal referral.  Fortunately for the rest of the media, her voice was not heard:

BORGER: Andrea, can you sort of explain to us how this story, which really started in July--I mean Ambassador Wilson wrote his piece criticizing the administration on July 6th. A week later, Bob Novak writes his column, talking about Ambassador Wilson's wife, and here we are at the beginning of October, and suddenly it's news.

MITCHELL: Well, it does seem a little mysterious. Why all of a sudden is there some political agenda going on? And obviously, there is a lot of politics going on here.

BORGER: Really?

MITCHELL: You know, shocking that politics would be taking place here in Washington, and there's a lot of hypocrisy on all sides.

...Then on the 14th, the bombshell from Novak, which was the revelation which clearly he says came from two administration officials--he wrote that in his column--that she was a covert--rather an operative, as he put it, at the CIA. The clear implication that she had somehow been involved in getting him to take this assignment and in somehow positioning him, that this was part of the overall attempt of the CIA to go up against the White House and to challenge the president's policy. So this is where it fits within the ongoing wars which are only becoming more heated between the Cheney-Bush White House, Rumsfeld hard-liners on weapons of mass destruction, and the more skeptical analysts and operatives, CIA officers, covert officers at both the CIA and the State Department.

Emphasis added, and Do Tell - not a thuggish act of partisan revenge at all.  A simple matter of the White House trying to point out that the CIA was positioning Wilson as part of the ongoing White House - CIA tussle.  Don't tell the Dems.

A CLUE:  Ms. Mitchell says this: "We should point out that I did do a story after that, on July 21st. I interviewed Wilson, did a story on the fact that he was now alleging that there was an attempt to bring his wife into it, that this was an administration attempt to intimidate him." 

The Lexis Demons are circling.

Comments

[BurbankErnie]

Ha! Fits like a glove with the other "facts" posted here.

If we could only have a partier theat attended the Wilson's 4th of July BBQ...

More digging, more digging....

[ed]

If you look at the first quote, it seems that she is only saying that those reporters who were investigating the Niger trip were discovering that the wife worked at the CIA. She does not however say who told her that information. Could it be she was leaked to as well?

[GEB4000]

This blog would be a perfect place to keep a running list of reporters and others who knew Plame was in the CIA before Kristof's New York Times article in June 2003 that started the avalanche. Taranto names two reporters, Sidey and Mitchell, but he didn't include Cliff May who has written many times on NRO that he knew about Plame. So how about it TM?

[Rick Ballard]

"But frankly I wasn't aware of her actual role at the CIA"

But frankly, my dear, I am unaware of any reason why you should be trusted or believed by anyone with a mental age higher than five.

Since Fitzgerald is such a thorough investgator, I'm sure that his agent's interviews with Andrea corroborate the fact that she never speaks to Russert about the news.

[kim]

So who is this Gilead at Columbia? Not sure of the name, but he had blogged, and may haave been Powerline's source.
================================

[TM]

I should have included the Hugh Sidey letter to the judge, from Taranto and The Sun:

Among the letters submitted by Mr. Cooper was one from a former Time White House correspondent, Hugh Sidey. “In this case it seems to me the protection of a source transcends the other considerations,which do not seem to threaten national security,” he wrote.

Mr. Sidey said in an interview that the identity of the CIA operative, Ms. Plame, was widely known-well before Mr. Cooper talked to his sources. “You know this game as well as I do,” Mr. Sidey said. “That name was knocking around in the sub rosa world we live in for a long time.”

The veteran reporter’s claim that the case does not involve national security appeared to be at odds with Mr. Pearlstine’s repeated statements last week that such issues factored into his decision to turn over the disputed documents.

So, a veteran Times reporter knew. Did he pass these secrets on to the Timesman that came behind, like Nick Kristof?

Was he the source for the no-source column Kristof wrote on Oct 11, 2003 which explained Ms. Plame's presumed outing to the Soviets by Aldrich Ames prior to his arrest in 1994?

[topsecretk9]

Hilail Gildin...here is his email

Dear xx. xxxxx,

I made the remark you quote in an email to Powerline which I addressed to Scott Johnson. It is based on my remembering the strong impression that hearing Andrea Mitchell say this made on me at the time.

That she said is is fixed in my mind. I discussed it with others. I could be mistaken about its having been made on MSNBC as distinguished from CNBC.

Best regards,
Hilail Gildin

so many doubted...which coincides with this recent little tidbit of honesty coming from spectator

"Remember, all of this got started because word reached the White House from reporters and friends of the Administration that Wilson was talking himself up and his Niger trip in green rooms all over town. "

http://www.spectator.org/blogger_comments.asp?BlogID=539

[topsecretk9]

Pretty sure Victor Davis Hansen encountered this, and "talking himself up" included references to his "HOT CIA WIFE" between admonishing make-up to be careful with the powder around his rolex

[kim]

Thanks, TSWoofer. Sometimes I think Fitz is working his mojo this way because it is MSM he can't investigate and prosecute, and it is MSM that must comprehend and cleanse the situation.
========================================

[Kathie]

Did you know that Wilson was debriefed at his home when he returned from Niger, his wife was at home but not part of the debriefing, so the story goes.

[richard mcenroe]

Meanwhile, in the other HA! WE GOTTEM NOW! scandal the Democrats are praying for, the Moveon.org judge, to no one's surprise but his own, was removed from the DeLay trial for obvious conflict of interest...

[topsecretk9]

Yes Kim...and I know I am being a bit redundant by posting this again, but it includes such an extraordinary admission (one that boggles me that Fitz would not be interested in)

Clarice dug this up----

Looks like May 2003 Wilson teams up with the Kerry Campaign. In this Boston(globe).com article, they lay out a pretty good timeline. But here is a curious statement:

"Kerry's advisers acknowledged yesterday [Oct. 03) that Wilson, who has also donated $2,000 to Kerry this year, told them about his allegations against the White House involving his wife before going public with them this summer. But Rand Beers, Kerry's top adviser on foreign affairs, said the campaign has not played a role in coordinating Wilson's charges."

WTF??? Wilson tells the Kerry Campaign about his CIA Mission AND the outing of his wife... BEFORE she is outed??? BEFORE Pincus's story? We are supposed to believe that the Kerry Camp had nothing to do with the leaks which started at this time?
There is more Kerry spin, read the article.

[jukeboxgrad]

Here's what the original Powerline citation said: "Andrea Mitchell was asked, on MSNBC, whether it was generally known to news people, before the hullabaloo, that Ms. Plame worked for the CIA. She answered, somewhat reluctantly, that it was."

Is that supported by the actual quote that has apparently now been found? No, and the key question is one of timing. We used to think that "before the hullabaloo" meant before 7/6/03 (the day Wilson went public in his oped). Now we understand that the real hullabaloo started at least two months earlier, when Kristof wrote about Wilson (without naming him).

Take a look at what Mitchell said: "It was widely known among those of us who cover the intelligence community and who were actively engaged in trying to track down who among the foreign service community was the envoy to Niger. So a number of us began to pick up on that." (Note that she's not saying, as Powerline alleged, "generally known to news people;" she's clearly talking about a specific subset of "news people.")

She's saying the people who knew were the people who were trying to figure out who had been the source ("the envoy to Niger") for Kristof and Pincus. The first of these articles appeared on 5/6/03. She's not indicating that anyone knew before 5/6/03. She indicating that as a result of Kristof's article, reporters got curious and started to find things out: "so a number of us began to pick up on that."

We now know that Cheney told Libby about Plame on 5/11/03. We know that Libby outed Plame to Miller on 5/23/03. We don't know for sure if the White House outed Plame to any reporters prior to 5/23/03, but it wouldn't be surprising if it did.

So Mitchell is not saying that Plame's identity was common knowledge prior to 5/6/03. Mitchell is saying that after Kristof wrote a provocative article, a bunch of his colleagues started getting curious, and did indeed start finding out about Plame. As Ed said: "it seems that she is only saying that those reporters who were investigating the Niger trip were discovering that the wife worked at the CIA."

Given what we now know via the Libby indictment, there's no surprise in hearing Mitchell say that in the period after 5/6/03, "a number of us began to pick up on that." Indeed, and most likely via White-House generated leaks.

Between 5/6/03 and 7/6/03 it seems clear that both Wilson and the White House were telling various people about Wilson's trip. But the White House was also telling people about Plame. We've seen the proof of that. There's no indication that Wilson was telling people about Plame.

Aside from all that, Mitchell's credibility on the subject leaves something to be desired. She recently said "he [Wilson] said publicly, that he had been dispatched by the vice president." No. Wilson never said that. A lot of people have behaved as if he said that (including Mitchell), but he never said it.

[jukeboxgrad]

GEB4000: "a running list of reporters and others who knew Plame was in the CIA before Kristof's New York Times article in June 2003"

So far, the number of reporters that belong on that list is zero, since no one, incuding Sidey, has been able to provide a shred of proof to back up the claim that's being made. It would be helpful, for example, if Sidey (or May, for that matter) could give an example of a conversation they were a part of where Plame's identity was discussed, prior to 5/6/03.

[topsecretk9]

oh for gripes sakes...

It was widely known among those of us who cover the intelligence community and who were actively engaged in trying to track down who among the foreign service community was the envoy to Niger.

Did Andrea say "little known" or the adverb Wilson is fond of using?

Between 5/6/03 and 7/6/03 it seems clear that both Wilson and the White House were telling various people about Wilson's trip.

Well according to the Kerry camp, they were in the loop before anyone.

[Sue]

Juke,

Your dates are wrong. It is June not May.

[kim]

Wow, JBG, it appears you have had a revelation about how much the Wilsons were the subject of inquiring minds from early May on.
=============================================

[cathyf]

Spew alert:

We know that Libby outed Plame to Miller on 5/23/03. We don't know for sure if the White House outed Plame to any reporters prior to 5/23/03, but it wouldn't be surprising if it did.

I think Miller was still in Iraq on 5/23/03

cathy :-)

[jukeboxgrad]

Sue, thanks for the correction. Obviously you're right. Sorry about the confusion. I don't think it changes the underlying analysis.

Just to be clear, the Kristof article was indeed 5/6/03. My wrong dates were all in one paragraph, which appears in corrected form as follows:

We now know that Cheney told Libby about Plame on 6/11/03. We know that Libby outed Plame to Miller on 6/23/03. We don't know for sure if the White House outed Plame to any reporters prior to 6/23/03, but it wouldn't be surprising if it did.

[JM Hanes]

Maybe I'm actually confusing or conflating it with the CNBC segment, but I could have sworn I heard Mitchell making similar comments on Hardball. In addition, I came away with the distinct impression at the time that while she might not have been one of the targetted recipients of the leak, she did, in fact, know the identity of either one or both of the administration officials who were responsible for the leaking. I remember specifically being struck by idea that we were about to spend multi-millions on an official investigation in an attempt to discover something that Andrea Mitchell and/or several others could have cleared up in a 30 second phone call -- so much for the public's right to know!

Unfortunately, I couldn't find online access to Hardball transcripts from that time period, but perhaps someone with access to the journalist's equivalent of Lexus Nexis is could do a search. I'm sure there's more Mitchell on the record than the comment you've referenced here -- she was practically to go-to cameo girl on this story, as I recall, and made multiple, multi-channel appearances.

[kim]

This could be interesting. Just how curious, JBG, are you about Joe Wilson, and his yellow cake stories, and his belief in the existence of WMD throught March, and his emergence, as if from a cocoon, a new Niger crusader, in May? Don't you wonder what happened to him, then, or was he just taking advantage of the apparent absence of WMD?

What gives? Why were the professionally curious both aware and concealing about the story? Don't you wonder?
==============================================

[cathyf]

We know that Libby outed Plame to Miller on 6/23/03.

We know? We know?!?! In your dreams, buddy. Or perhaps more appropriately, "What mean 'we' kemo sabe?"

I still think it was Miller who told Libby that Mrs. Wilson worked for the Bureau of Land Management... (That's what her notes say, after all.)

cathy :-)

[jukeboxgrad]

top: "BEFORE Pincus's story?"

Nice job making shit up. The passage you cited says "before going public with them this summer." That's not a reference to the earlier stories in which Wilson was not named (not exactly "going public"). The first of those stories was on 5/6/03. Not exactly summer. "Going public" is a reference to Wilson's oped, on 7/6/03 (8 days before Novak outed Plame).

So all you know is that Wilson said something about Plame to Kerry's people perhaps as little as 8 days prior to the time Novak outed Plame. And what exactly did Wilson say about Plame? You don't know, because all you have is a vague statement about "allegations against the White House involving his wife." You have no details regarding what Wilson told Kerry about Plame. Maybe Wilson told Kerry "the White House is sneaking around saying things about Valerie, but at the moment I can't tell you more about why that is."

Keep trying.

[kim]

This piece is set. The White House defense will hold at the gate Libby is defending, and the howling mob will turn on Joe et al, as they awake to consciousness of the betrayal.

Now who is al?
================

[JM Hanes]

P.S. On the speculative side, does anyone else think that Mitchell seems considerably more relaxed on camera lately? It occurs to me to wonder if she doesn't feel like she's dodged a bullet here herself. OTOH, maybe she's just anticipating the retirement of her eminent spouse.

[topsecretk9]

JM
but I could have sworn I heard Mitchell making similar comments on Hardball.

Stop. Go back. You are treading in unsafe territory. You see, without a transcript (and know even with one) you are not to be trusted, making things up out of thin air or convenient memory only to fulfill a fantasy that Washington insiders would know anything about a "HOT CIA WIFE".

And why in the hector, do available Hardball transcripts curiously start AFTER this interesting time?

[kim]

Analyze parsely.
Mirror, who is sage?
Keep in rows my reasons.
It's been her hubby's time.
=============================

[Al]

"Perhaps the defense will stage a bit of a show - put Ms. Mitchell on the stand..."

Perhaps the defense will put Hugh Sidey and Cliff May on the stand too. Start popping the popcorn, this could be good!

[topsecretk9]

Juke---

Apparently you have trouble with reading comprehension as I excepted Clarice, so nice smear...and you go live in alternate "semantics" world...Wilson WAS part of the Kerry campaign in May of 03...that was a question Novak was interested in.

the time between the State of the Union speech and Wilson's op-ed article, Wilson grew increasingly angry with Bush's leadership during the war and the uncontested assertions about nuclear material, Kerry advisers say. In mid-May, he began talking to Kerry's advisers about helping the campaign; he made his first donation May 23.

[topsecretk9]

linky

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/10/02/in_probe_of_cia_leak_two_sides_see_politics/

[kim]

Break out my ukelele, let me serenade my darling, Andrea.

Grey eyed Athene swiftly flyin'
Sandals were for Andrea, mine.
==================================

[Creepy Dude]

Good Lord Krishna almighty-once again you people have been out analyzed by the insect-brained Kaus.
See Kaus' 11:07 post today and substitute "Andrea" for "Sam".

[kim]

Didn't Beers, Clarke, Berger, and Wilson have a grand old run there for a little over a year? If not for a few old sailors, they'd be in charge.

I'm feeling faint.
================

[topsecretk9]

kim--

behave. your making me laugh

[topsecretk9]

Was Lehane still on Kerry co. in May 03?

[kim]

Good Lord Shiva, CD, is Andrea Sam, and whoever it was was the intention to out Plame or debunk Joe. The jury will deliberate on intent. For rebuilding, Shiva considers intent.
===================================================

[MeTooThen]

Kim,

If not for a few old sailors, they'd be in charge.

LOL.

Really.

No wait, it's not funny at all.

No wait, I'm feeling faint.

Me too, then.

[JM Hanes]

tops --

I'm jess sayin' The Hardball site only provides relatively recent transcripts. I tried mucking around with the URL's to see if they were accessible though not linked, but no luck. If you know where I can find 'em, I'd sure love to know.

[Cecil Turner]

once again you people have been out analyzed by the insect-brained Kaus.

I know you think that's persuasive, but I read it as: "look, this dummy agrees with me." Might want to repackage that message . . .

[Toby Petzold]

It's interesting that the liberal Left's otherwise-inexplicable defense of the integrity of the CIA has some actual basis besides its use as an ironic embarrassment to the pro-war camp: the CIA has made itself a real instrument that the Left can use against this Administration. Or, at least it did once in a moment of truth.

Have I mentioned yet that I think George Tenet is a miserable rat bastage?

[topsecretk9]

JM-

I know, and I was not mocking you...but others dogged by Andrea Mitchell...I did the same thing, dicking with the urls'...LEXIS?

[Terrie]

Add Martin Peretz, editor in chief of the New Republic, to the list of those in the media who either a) knew or b) claims to know who knew Plame's name and identity prior to Robert Novak's July 14, 2003 column.

Peretz wrote on July 21, 2004 that "in a lot of dining rooms where I am a guest here, there is outrage that someone in the vice president's office 'outed' Ms. Plame, as though everybody in Georgetown hadn't already known she was under cover, so to speak. Under cover, but not really."

The full text, which includes Peretz's analysis of the Africa connection, is available at https://ssl.tnr.com/p/docsub.mhtml?i=express&s=peretz072104.

[Jim E.]

I was one of the folks most upset at those that brought up the Andrea Mitchell quote because I didn't think it existed. I was wrong. This is certainly the quote the Powerline person was remembering. The long-sought Andrea Mitchell quote has been found, and I stand corrected. Again: I was wrong about whether the quote existed.

With that said, the quote does NOT say Plame's identity was an open secret, so there's no need to hyperventilate about the significance of this one quote. If the WH was leaking like crazy, it would make sense that reporters, esp reporters on the foreign policy beat, like Mitchell, knew about Wilson's wife prior to Novak's column since they would have been spoon-fed the info by the WH. I think JBG's post above makes sense given what we know.

In fact, I think I have found more info that suggests Mitchell was leaked to, and that none of this was well-known. Keep reading:

Now that I know where to look (who the hell watched Capital Report?), I think I found a little nugget. On July 8, 2003, on that same obscure show (Capital Report), Andrea Mitchell said this about Joe Wilson's trip: "He [Wilson] was sent over by some of the covert operatives in the CIA at a very low level, not, in fact, tasked by the vice president."

Mitchell goes out of her way to mention how "covert operatives" sent Wilson. Notice that she specifies "covert operatives." "Operative" -- the same word Novak used, and Novak ONLY uses that word to describe spies. Notice also that Mitchell is going out of her way to provide cover for the VP, which was the main motive of the leaker. It would seem that the same person leaking to Novak leaked to Mitchell -- and that that person KNEW that covert agents were involved. Remember, this quote was between the publication dates of Wilson's and Novak's columns, and would fit in with the Fleischer, Libby, Rove leak plan.

Did Mitchell testify? Of course, Fitz already knows who leaked to Novak. I would suggest that it was the same exact person who leaked to Mitchell. Presumably Fitz already knows all of this, and it's damning to the administration, rather than exculpatory.

[Sue]

Juke,

You are ignoring Wilson's own words. He was shopping his story around. If you can explain how he shopped his story without revealing his involvement, I would be interested in hearing it. And if he shopped his story, any good reporter would start sourcing it. It wouldn't take long to figure out who his wife was. And for someone who reported on WMDs (read Miller and Mitchell here) it wouldn't come as a big surprise to learn they had access to people who knew the Wilson/Plame connection.

[Sue]

Jim,

Only if you ignore Wilson. He was shopping his story, prior to the WH checking into him. I would certainly be interested in knowing which reporters he contacted. Wouldn't you?

[JM Hanes]

tops - no harm, no foul. I should have started looking around for a cheap membership in some organization with Lexis access the first time I thought about it.

[JM Hanes]

Jim E. --
On Tim Russert's personal show last week, Mitchell specifically stated that she was not one of the leak-ees.

[JBS]

Well Juke, I would think that Wilson pretty much went "public" weeks earlier than his 7/6/05 NY Times editorial. At least as early as 6/14/05 when he made a 45 minute speech at a radical left EPIC (education for peace in Iraq center)event. The site below is for the event and even has the audio. In it you can hear ol Joe taking credit for the earlier Kristof and Pincus articles. He claim to have been sent to Niger by our gevernment--not the CIA--but the governmnet. Now I always thought the CIA was part of the government, but apparently it is not to Joe and he is emphatic in making the distinction. Oh and if you scroll to the bottom you can see that Joe's bio refers to his wife not as Mrs Wilson but as the former Valerie Plame. I think he first described her as my hot sexy CIA wife the former Valerie Plame but they edited the bio for brevity . . .

http://www.epic-usa.org/Default.aspx?tabid=68&showlogin=1

Do you think maybe he filled in some people before he went to the EPIC event? What do you think he said to the organizers to be included in the event?

[macranger]

Jim,

"Mitchell goes out of her way to mention how "covert operatives" sent Wilson. Notice that she specifies "covert operatives." "Operative" -- the same word Novak used, and Novak ONLY uses that word to describe spies. "

Not necessarily. Operative in washington journalese has a wide application. In fact, Michael Scheuer, a CIA "operative" who wrote a book using "anonymous", would fit this definition, although he used the anonymous penname, everyone knew who he was as well.

David Corn was in fact the first to use the term "US intelligence officer working covertly", in his July 16th, article. Seems David knew more of Wilson and Plame than was possibly in this dimension.

Sue is absolutely correct in the "shopping around", although he had "handlers" and "agents" such as the Alliance for American Leadership, headed by Marc Ginsberg who eventually hooked him up with Gail Collins, OP ED editior at the NY Times, and from the there, history.

[topsecretk9]

Okay... Jim E is honest. I, for one agreed with the argument (quit citing Mitchell if there is no transcript to back it)

but I think from this, most can deduce that reporters have been the lamest participants in this whole dang affair.

Dispense with the notion that Wilson and his "hot CIA wife" was a secret...they all knew and loved it because it MADE the story...

this whole calamity (outing) started TO COVER Valerie's complicit vouching for her cologne wearing husband.

No one. Would have. Given. Joe Wilson. The time of day. Without her.

[Jim E.]

Here's what Andrea Mitchell said this last Saturday on Russert's CNBC show: "I was called by the CIA because it was erroneously reported in The Washington Post that I was the recipient of the leak before Novak's column came out, and I had not been. So I was never questioned because I simply told the FBI--and, you know, NBC put out a statement that night--that I had not been a recipient of the leak; in fact, I had learned about it from Novak's column like everyone else."

That does leave me scratching my head. But, then again, Judy Miller still doesn't think anyone leaked anything to her either.

[Rick Ballard]

Mac,

What sort of verification would you think that Ms. Collins would require from a second tier ex-dip before giving him the e-page for his "My Excellent African Adventure" story?

Who vouched for him?

[kim]

Maybe, but they liked the story anyway. Maybe Plame was why no one seemed to double check his story.
=================================================

[topsecretk9]

Plame is a hostess goddammit!!!!

[topsecretk9]

Rick--

Just... Cheney "behested"doesn't quite fly, does it?

[Rick Ballard]

TSK9,

And a cupcake too - say maybe the Twinkie defense will work!

[kim]

An undercover hostess?
=======================

[topsecretk9]

or else, I qualify for the pages of the NYTime, no?

[Jim E.]

I have once again looked at the Andrea Mitchell comment from July 8, 2003. ("He [Wilson] was sent over by some of the covert operatives in the CIA at a very low level, not, in fact, tasked by the vice president.") How in the heck can she say that she wasn't the recipient of a leak?

[topsecretk9]

part time hostess, part time spy, part time Helen Keller impersonator

[macranger]

Rick,

With Mr. Ginsberg (former ambassador under Clinton), with connections to a particular Soros Funding Group, there's all the weight one needs. He was instrumental in getting Wilson on the talk whow circuit.

Don't know, if the name Brent Scowcroft means anything, but he gave Wilson a very early leg up as they shared common ideas.

Although, knowing her distain for Mr. Bush, Ms. Collins at the time might have printed a story from Donald Duck if it had some 'dirt" on him.

[Creepy Dude]

Not at all CT-Kaus is a certifiable idiot and a valuable touchstone. If even Kaus grasps the basic point-I know I shan't have to suffer fools any further. I link to him to avoid typing the refutation here, freeing me to debate more the esoteric matters related to the coming collapse of the Bush government.

[topsecretk9]

part time hostess, part time spy, part time Helen Keller impersonator

[Creepy Dude]

Not at all CT-Kaus is a certifiable idiot and a valuable touchstone. If even Kaus grasps the basic point-I know I shan't have to suffer fools any further. I link to him to avoid typing the refutation here, freeing me to debate more the esoteric matters related to the coming collapse of the Bush government.

[Rick Ballard]

Hi, Andrea, this is Gail over at the Times. Some guy named Wilson just left - he's peddling a story about Nigerian cupcakes or something and gave you as a reference.

Nigeri? Another country? Why does it have the same name?

What does yellowcake have to do with uranium?

Oh.

She does? What does she do?

WMD? Oh, so I can check with Judy, then?

Thanks, Andrea, say hi to Tim and Chris for me.

[cathyf]

To return to Ms. Mitchell for a moment:

It was widely known among those of us who cover the intelligence community and who were actively engaged in trying to track down who among the foreign service community was the envoy to Niger. So a number of us began to pick up on that. But frankly I wasn't aware of her actual role at the CIA and the fact that she had a covert role involving weapons of mass destruction, not until Bob Novak wrote it.

I find that last sentence particularly intriguing -- since apparently Mrs. Wilson had no covert role involving weapons of mass destruction. According to both Hawley and Novak, Hawley told Novak that her covert role and her WMD role were completely separate, and that she had not worked in her covert role for a very long time. (You know, "work" that thing the rest of us do? Where in order to get paid for a particular job we actually have to work at that job and not some other completely other job...)

It seems like from 3 months out Mitchell was already confusing what was in Novak's column and what was in Corn's column. So much for the notion that it the obstruction of justice is the only possible explanation for mixing up similar conversations with reporters a few days apart when looking back from a couple of months.

cathy :-)

[Sue]

If democrats are waiting on the demise of Bush to reclaim power...all I can say is...yippee skippy. I've never heard of a better campaign idea before. Oh wait. Yes I did. It was in 2002, 2004 and looks to be that way again in 2006. Keep it coming folks, while Bush continues to push his agenda, while democrats are looking into corners for something that isn't there.

[topsecretk9]

Rick-

and then...Cocktails anyone?

[clarice]

You don't suppose do you that JM ,seeing these Kristof stories about the envoy and the Op Ed with references to attempts by Iraq to buy uranium in Niger coming out of her own paper and about which she'd not been ask to look into, didn't get curious? Didn't poke around the newsroom to find out who he was, how he got there (both to Niger and to the newsroom)/ And you don't suppose she picked up some stuff--stuff maybe garbled like Flame for Plame?

If you don't think so, we don't see eye to eye about human nature.

[topsecretk9]

cathy f--

doesn't matter for your point--it's spot on---but the fellow at CIA is "Harlow". Hope you don't think I am snarky, I just don't want some KOS implant to take that as a silly opportunity.

[topsecretk9]

Clarice
By the way...your Boston Globae article was a HUGE uncovering! Good work.

[topsecretk9]

Anyone watch Wilson---demanding his privacy---on his 4th national appearance---on Larry Queen Live tonight?

[Sue]

I can't remember where I saw it, but there was a link to a Novak column on the net in October 2003 where he used the name Valerie Flame. Typo? Or something else? I suspect everything we are discussing has been discussed and looked at by Fitzgerald. If I were him, I would have someone working on reading blogs. :) It would save research time, for sure.

If Fitzgerald had the goods on Libby, Rove, or anyone else in the WH for 'leaking' Valerie's name and/or classified/covert status, he would have indicted for that. There is evidence that Libby did leak "Wilson's wife", if not her actual name. There is evidence Rove did leak "Wilson's wife", if not her actual name. I suspect Fitzgerald knows where it started. And I suspect he also knows it was common knowledge, at least among reporters after Wilson started his shopping expedition. Just my opinion.

[Craig Shriver]

Hey folks. Long time dedicated lurker, first time poster.

RE: Beginning of "The Leak War."

We seem to be placing the beginning of the leak war at the date of Kritof's first column, May 6, 2003.

I think it started earlier.

http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,81148,00.html

The 25-member group, Veteran
Intelligence Professionals for Sanity,
composed mostly of former CIA analysts
along with a few operational agents, is
urging employees inside the intelligence
agency to break the law and leak any
information they have that could show
the Bush administration is engineering
the release of evidence... .

Whatever, if anything, VIPS managed to persuade CIA agents, officials, and staffers to leak, I think it is safe to assume they were not leaking it to the administration. I assume they were leaking it to reporters.

Did Ray McGovern woo Valerie Plame? When did Wilson suddenly change his tune? In Feb. 03, he told Bill Moyers:

"WILSON: I think war is inevitable.
Essentially, the speech that the
President gave at the American
Enterprise Institute was so much on the
overthrow of the regime and the
liberation of the Iraqi people that I
suspect that Saddam understands that
this is not about disarmament."

Not about disarming him? Wilson seems to beleive it is all about that now, and that it was a lie. The 16 words. The reason for his July 6, 03 op-ed. What happened? When did it happen?

Nail that down, and you probably have a good idea when Plame was outed.

[clarice]

ts..thanks. Given the fact that Andrea is not apparently a very precision thinker I don't know how to pin doen her statements. Ditto the Boston Globe writer, but as I said before I doubt Wilson had to tell Beers or Clarke or Berger--they all had worked (and I am sure played) together for years in a tight bien pensant Georgetown circle. They may ot have known what role Plame played in the Mission but I am sure they figured out that Cheny hadn't delegated him for this task. I doubt they would have either.

[Rick Ballard]

I just hope Brendan Sullivan is standing next to Libby at his arraignment Thursday.

[macranger]

Top....

Saw that... a very private man indeed.

"You see Larry, I was in Cambodia, ..errr, Niger...drinking sweet mint tea and meeting with dozens of people, it was Christmas,...er I mean...."

Yeah..

The more he talks, the more someone cringes.

[Jim E.]

clarice,
Judy Miller's personal account -- if it is to be believed -- contradicts your post about her. BTW, do you still think Libby was the "last" to know about Wilson's wife?

[clarice]

I'm afraid I can't figure out JM's personal ccount. The last I recall reading she had the wrong names in a different part of her notebook, didn't know ehre that came from---and that is not inconsistent with my hyponthesis that she picked it up from chat around the newsroom.

As for Libby, as I've said at least twice he may not have considered anything he heard before the Cheney discussion as solid information..it was the only report from someone truly in a position to offer something definitive--Tenet.

[clarice]

That last post has more typos than even I can bear--redo:
I'm afraid I can't figure out JM's personal account. The last I recall reading she had the wrong names in a different part of her notebook, didn't know where that came from---and that is not inconsistent with my hypothesis that she picked it up from chat around the newsroom.

As for Libby, as I've said at least twice he may not have considered anything he heard before the Cheney discussion as solid information..it was the only report from someone truly in a position to offer something definitive--Tenet.

[topsecretk9]

this explains the slow. long drip and 9 monthe leave...

She's got several months until she's vested in their pension system and she goes to work every day still trying to do her best in the service of this country, as she has been for the last 20 years.

really, it is? the name? Warning--- "end of the day" alert
WILSON: Well, Mr. Rove, it's now clear by Matt Cooper's testimony and by contemporaneous e-mails from Mr. Cooper to his supervisor that Mr. Rove was leaking Valerie's name to members of the press before the Novak article appeared.

I find that unconscionable. I think it's a violation of national security. It may not be indictable. It may not be -- it may not be criminal but, at the end of the day, is this the standard of ethical comportment that we expect from our senior public servants? I don't believe it is. I cannot understand why the president does.

KING: What about those on the right who are saying that you were always anti-Bush and this was somehow involved in some sort of move to get the president?

WILSON: Well, that's simply not true. I undertook this trip to Niger several months before I ever began to speak out, several months before I even formulated my own thoughts on what our policy towards Iraq should be.

When I entered the debate on what our policy should be I brought to it the experience of having served there for two and a half years for this president's father. I bore no animus to the Republicans. I was proud of my service to this president's father.

a little Italian here - RICK___

WILSON: Well, actually Dr. ElBaradei said they were obvious forgeries and his deputy said that a two hour search on Google would have told even a novice forensic analyst that they were forgeries. So, they were not great forgeries, should not have fooled the intelligence community or the White House for that matter.

I don't -- there has been a series of articles published in the Italian magazine or the Italian newspaper "La Republica" just this week. Some of those articles have been (INAUDIBLE) in some American reporting.

There are a couple of web blogs, particularly Talking Points Memo and the Left Coaster that have also taken a good look and done a study into what they think some of the possible sources of the documents might have been.

[topsecretk9]

AAAHHH HHHAAA--Clarice....trying to explain here!!!!!

Now, I'm prepared to think the worst of Karl Rove ever since he told Chris Matthews that my wife was fair game. And that's tough for me because Karl and I go to the same church. We go to different services, we go to the same church. I know his wife's name because we get a church newsletter. So, why he wouldn't know my wife's name, perhaps he doesn't read the newsletter.

[Rick Ballard]

mac,

I can't quite see Scowcroft pushing the Wilson story in early summer '03. Realpolitik just wouldn't favor it. I'll grant the fact that he's an Arabist who loved the status quo ante but he is a realist who knows that you can't unring a bell. His current antics relate more to "stabilizing" the situation with Syria and Iran than anything to do with Iraq. He's just using Iraq as an argumentative device - and he's not doing at all well, even at that.

[topsecretk9]

There are a couple of web blogs, particularly Talking Points Memo and the Left Coaster that have also taken a good look and done a study into what they think some of the possible sources of the documents might have been.

Hello Mr. Wilson, so does TM!!!! An MAC!!! And AJ!!! An shucks now Gateway Pundit And Protein Wisdom, and oh hell a whole lot that just don't buy your brand of cologne.

[topsecretk9]

Rick--- I think Wilson's book detail Scowcroft, I have it I'll check, but I think Mac is right

[topsecretk9]

In fact, Wilson is talking to Scowcroft even when he is writting in San Jose Mercury News...LONG before

[topsecretk9]

Scowcroft is pushing Wilson's "sjm" writings to WH, Scowcroft is member of some Presidential National Secrutity group...in Wilson's book

[clarice]

Guess someone sent him the articles where we detailed his quick change artist routine..LOL..
Of course if the IAEA forgeries were his tip off, then his cockamamies sotires about warning Cheney about them are a crock-but hey, don't expect LK to do more than play smurfball--research? him?

[Rick Ballard]

TSK9,

La Repubblica published another rehash of the forgery story today. They're hanging their hat on a brief meeting at which Hadley and an Italian from Sismi (Italian CIA) met. The WH, Berlusconi, the Italian agent (Pollari) and Hadley all agree that no documents were passed at the meeting and that there was no discussion of Niger or uranium. The Italian investigator has archived (closed) the investigation on Martino (who was described by the investigator as a buffoon) and the Italian government has announced that the FBI portion of the investigation in Italy is complete.

These Italian journos are like a cross of David Corn and Sydney Blumenthal. There is no rumor so stupid or vicious that they will not print it. I know that the lefties have been trumpeting this series in La Repubblica but you have to understand that La Repubblica is sort of like a cross of the Enquirer with The Nation. Great fantasy but damn few facts.

[clarice]

Yes-- I spoke to the person who's researching this--it is taking a bit longer but it should be ready in a day or two. From his other work, I think it will be very detailed and good.

[clarice]

You can always tell what Blumenthal is up to if you can beaqr to go over to TPM--Marshall is his megaphone.Earlier I spotted stromata on Blumenthal and I was laughing out loud.(http://stromata.tripod.com/id463.htm)

[topsecretk9]

This gives you an idea of Wilson's self-importance

"Brent called me when he received the article (San Jose Mercury..that Wilson sent him) He kindly asked if I could "take it over to the White House"....Cindy Sheehan style I suppose

because Scowcroft thought, Wilson supposed..."senior officials ought to read the views of somebody who actually had experience in Iraq and Saddam's government"

[arrowhead]

Scowcroft was the Chairman of the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board. His term expired at the end of 2004 and he was replaced by Stephen Friedman in Oct. 2005. I read somewhere but can't find the link that Scowcroft commented privately, "I've been fired."

[arrowhead]

Here's the link on Scowcroft:
http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/001038.html

[topsecretk9]

Scrowcroft is of course the head of the "Aspen Strategy Group" for the Aspen Institute...see Arianna ....or this (members on left and right column...ahem...Judy Miller...ahem NICK KRISTOF...ahem)

http://www.aspeninstitute.org/site/c.huLWJeMRKpH/b.612047/k.1222/Aspen_Strategy_Group.htm

[Neuro-conservative]

From the transcript of this weekend's Russert show on CNBC -- these Mitchell quotes seem a little contradictory to her "Capitol Report" comments. Also notice the repetition of the phrase "not a recipient of the leak." I suspect that this is official NBC-speak for "I heard about Plame from Wilson, not from the White House."

Transcript follows:

RUSSERT: But I also said--I also said very clearly, 'cause, you know, I thought it was important to his investigation, that I was not the recipient of the leak. I mean, Mr. Libby did not say to me, `Hey, by the way I have a great story for you: Valerie Plame, Joe Wilson's wife, works for the CIA. She's an operative there, and she was instrumental in sending Joe Wilson.' None of that. None of that. And so I don't know, you know, exactly what Mr. Libby is now--was suggesting when I read his--in the indictment or his testimony. I didn't recognize any of it.

MITCHELL: You know, I should have spoke--'cause there's been a lot blogged about all of this--I was called by the CIA because it was erroneously reported in The Washington Post that I was the recipient of the leak before Novak's column came out, and I had not been. So I was never questioned because I simply told the FBI--and, you know, NBC put out a statement that night--that I had not been a recipient of the leak; in fact, I had learned about it from Novak's column like everyone else. Then after the fact, a lot of us had gotten calls and conversations with people, you know, `Hey, how about the Novak column?' But that was after the fact.

RUSSERT: Well, ironically, when I was asked about this, I said, if I had known this, I would have told Andrea Mitchell. I would have told Pete Williams.

MITCHELL: In fact, Tim, you would have called me and said, `You hosted "Meet the Press" and questioned Joe Wilson and covered the agency and you didn't know that the wife--what's going on with you?'

[Rick Ballard]

TSK9,

I wonder if that's going to be renamed 'The Quaking Aspen Strategy Group' in the near future? I hear when those things blow over a whole bunch go down at once 'cause their roots are intertwined.

[topsecretk9]

Well this is weird....Larry C. Johnson just put up some Cheney bad post --with HUGE FONT SIZE (bigger than normal) and now his bog gets this...(which is NOTHING, type pad puts some message up)

http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/

[topsecretk9]

Holy Hector

Larry C. Johnson just removed his blog!!!!!!!

I just searched, previous searches and they come up only cached in type

[clarice]

Isn't that interesting? What do you think happened? (Damn just as I was falling alseep).