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December 14, 2005

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Cecil Turner

Byron York also notes rumors that Fitzgerald "has also re-presented previously-gathered evidence to that grand jury. To most observers, that suggests Fitzgerald could be planning to indict someone."

It also fits with my pet theory that Fitz was rebuffed by the first GJ when he tried to get an indictment for leaking classified information; and part of the reason for the follow-on GJ is to take another stab at it. Now if I can just get some facts to fix around the theory . . .

Cheez Wiz

Somewhat amazing item in York's routine piece o' crap. Writeth York:

"...which itself was somewhat undermined when it turned out that there was at least one significant part of that story — Libby's conversations with the Washington Post's Bob Woodward — that Fitzgerald didn't know about at the time he indicted Libby."

So is York really saying Libby was Woodward's source? Or will there be a retraction a la the WAPO fool who said on TV that Hadley told Rove?

kim

We really don't know what he is up to, but he has certainly been targetting journalists. Look at what he does, not what journalists say he does.

How? Yeah, good question.
===========================

owl

As I said previously, Fitz has turned out to be not just an idiot parrot, repeating the CIA/MSM story....but now has become a dangerous idiot because he acted like a fool and knows we all know it. My first time to say 'Earle' since I consider this bottom of bin.

TM...I don't trash Woodward (with friends like Fineman..) but I am unhappy with him for another reason. I just don't quite buy his reason for coming forward. I think he is the 'bad news bear' and forced his source. For all his talk about a non-story, I think he has created 'the story'. I am putting my money on Woodward instead of V Novak as the reason for the activity.

topsecretk9

Byron York:

"has also re-presented previously-gathered evidence to that grand jury. To most observers, that suggests Fitzgerald could be planning to indict someone.""

"— and for all anyone on the outside knows, there might be someone else in Fitzgerald's sights — most people knowledgeable about the case believe charges would stem from the presidential adviser's testimony about his brief July 11, 2003, conversation with Time magazine's Matthew Cooper."

I'll go out on my own speculation limb...Matt Cooper.

owl

Oh yeah.....they definitely believe they scored. Matthews was almost bouncing/foaming on Monday.

owl

wow ts....I would never bet against you!

kim

It's heads I win, tails you lose. If Cooper is indicted, hooray; if Rove is indicted, hooray for his defense. It'll be revelatory.

And Jeb'll put his face on the dime. And a horned donkey on the reverse.
==============================================

kim

The donkey will be loaded down with bundles of sticks.
==============================================

Bikkhu

TM-I see you making a big deal out of the fact that the JD "forgot to ask" about Cooper in their original document request-but I don't see how the Hadley e-mail doesn't also fall under No. 2.

Furthermore-why didn't Hadley ever produce this email (or did he)? He was the recipient after all. So why is Rove the only one feeling the heat for failing to produce it?

BurbankErnie

owl,
Fitz is now the new Earleism. It sure looks like this entire farce was to get as many WH Officials as possible.
What I wonder is why everyone involved spoke of Earle's, er I mean Fitz's integrity. After 2 years and nothing about the original criminal investigation (Remember That? Who leaked Mrs. Wilson?)we now have rumors of Rove being indicted? For what? Really?

What a joke of an investigation. Just like Earles' two year plus sabbatical. How embarrassing.

dorf

The Cooper conversation (two minutes) would be the basis for a perjury and false statement indictment? Would any sane official ever cooperate with an investigation again?

Cheez Wiz

I'm sure honest ones still will Dorf.

dorf

CW: state specifically the lie Rove told.

Cheez Wiz

Here-Digby has already done the heavy lifting.

"The Rove version of events seems to be that Rove heard about Plame from "someone outside the white house" whose identity he can't remember. Although he lied about it to the FBI, he admitted to the Grand Jury that he confirmed that Plame was CIA to Bob Novak and that Novak told him that he was going to write a story about it. But it was on July 10th or 11th, when he happened to be chattering in the office to Libby about this Novak call when he really learned about Plame. He then spoke to Matt Cooper (on the morning of the 11th) spilled the beans about Plame, shot off an e-mail to Hadley saying that he "didn't take the bait" and then forgot all about that Cooper conversation and the e-mail.

He didn't remember talking to Cooper when, just a week after the conversation, all hell broke loose in Washington when Novak's column came out and it was revealed that Plame was an NOC. He didn't remember when he was asked to search for any documentation about Wilson and he didn't find that e-mail to Hadley either. He didn't remember the conversation with Cooper when the FBI talked to him and he didn't remember it when he testified before the Grand Jury. It wasn't until the following spring when Viveca Novak "pushed back" Bob Luskin, revealing that she knew Rove was Cooper's source and leading Luskin to fortuitously "find" the missing e-mail that Rove apparently remembered the conversation.

Oddly, throughout this time he apparently did remember the Novak confirmation. And it would seem (although we don't know this) that he remembered the Libby conversation from the beginning while forgetting completely about talking to Cooper or writing an e-mail to Hadley on the very same day.

After the miracle e-mail appears, Rove testifies to the GJ in October of 2004 about his conversation with Cooper. He has no reason to worry about what Cooper might say because even though he issued a "waiver", Cooper is refusing to testify and he and TIME are fighting all attempts to get them to cooperate. At this point, it appears that all anyone knows is "gossip" that Cooper and Rove spoke. Rove says the Plame matter was a passing reference in a conversation about welfare reform.

But TIME, surprisingly, gives up the notes the next summer when the Supreme Court refuses to take the appeal and Cooper's lawyer finds a way to get Rove to release Cooper from his promise on the day he is slated to go to jail. Unfortunately for Rove the result is that Cooper testifies, and his notes confirm, that Rove never mentioned welfare reform and spoke at greater length and in much greater detail about Plame than he had testified to earlier. Again,it seems that Rove has not been completely forthcoming with the prosecutor. "

dorf

CW: you got me man, he is a total, horrible liar and should go to jail!!

boris

CW: state specifically the lie Rove told.

LOL!

maryrose

I'm not quite ready to equate Fitz with Ronnie Earle but it is becoming increasingly difficult to figure out which way he is headed.
Owl,
I agree with you that the Matthews display was egregios and of course the ever faithful Shuster was in full attack dog mode against Rove. I wonder if Rove could ever press slander charges against these clowns?

MaryC

Well, all those liberals who were gloating about "Fitzmas" are going to be getting a big lump of coal in their stockings when nothing comes of this.

maryrose

CW;
Get your facts straight. It was a brief conversation as Rove was heading out the door on vacation. It was not a long conversation, where they spoke about Plame or even mentioned her name.

danking

Well we now have 3 new blog entries from TM and nary a comment from Clarice.

I take that as a good sign, if you know what I mean.

Cheez-Wiz

Boris-normally I'd let it go-but since you're one of the dumbest people posting here (congrtas-the competition is stiff) I'll spell it out.

Specific lie No. 1: See Sentence 2-Rove lied to the FBI and denied he was Novak's source.

Now you can do the rest.

Rove is going to get indicted-just deal with it.

Velveeta Loaf

Rove was definately not Novak's source. At most, Rove was a "confirmation" if you want to say "yeah, I heard that too" is a confirmation.

Rove's evidence (contemporaneous email) that the premise of Cooper's call was about Welfare is much stronger than Cooper's evidence (nothing in notes) that Welfare was not mentioned. Cooper did not put it in his notes, because we now know Coop didn't care about Welfare...he wanted Rove to take Coop's Plame bait.

The lefties said 22 indictments last time...they were 21 short. Rove will definitely not be indicted - just deal with it. Maybe sitting through a showing of Brokeback Mountain will help you relieve your frustrations. ;)

owl

One small problem with your little story CW.

It all hinges on Cooper's notes. I say Cooper lied because he only made his 'notes' so he could get in on that story being written. The story was already about ready to go and Cooper called to try to 'get a confirmation' so he could use it as a source, but he got in the door with Welfare. Rove's welfare makes much more sense. You are living on the kool-aid pushed by Matthews the yap-trap.

Of course a desperate prosecutor who was so foolish to read a script written by the MSM, might just grab your story as a lifeline.

owl

sorry....it's what happens when like minds..lol

topsecretk9

dumbest TROLLERS posting here (congrtas-the competition is stiff)

Lovely that the lefties troll around demonstrating their lofty eloquence any chance they can. Impressive.

Cheez-Wiz

Owl-how does Rove lying to the FBI that he was not Novak's source have to do with Cooper.

Velveeta-sorry but you're a fool or an idiot. Rove is one of the two SAOs referenced in Novak's original coulumn. That's a source.

kim

We are danking our lucky stars that Clarice seems preoccupied.
=======================================

Cheez-Wiz

TopSecret9-you are also a very dumb person-believe me I know as I lurk here more than post-but the bounds of tolerance have been reached.

Fitzgerald is at the grand jury RIGHT NOW. He is not there to waste his or the grand juror's time.

You just stated your belief that Cooper is going to be indicted. Sorry brother but that is just idiocy-I mean are you serious? It's been an echochamber of lunacy in here for for too long.

NorthWstPHD

MaryC: "Well, all those liberals who were gloating about "Fitzmas" are going to be getting a big lump of coal in their stockings when nothing comes of this."

If the Libruhls you speak of actually practice Christmas. Too busy sipping their lattes and sucking up to the ACLU to hang their "holiday" stockings, I'm betting.

I don't think its going to be Rove, anyway, but more along the lines of a Democrat staffer (thats the new rumor) or the greatest liar of them all, Joseph Wilson himself.

boris

Sorry brother

LOL again! Admit it, you're actually a spoof aren't you!

clarice

danking--I'm pulling my hair out, but accepting that all things come with time and I am not in a position to get my tale out faster.

As for all this,I have no idea what Novak's talking about, except that he's hinting that Bush is protecting someone not worthy of his efforts.

I do think Novak is saying he never told Fitz the name of his source. Am I reading that wrong? If so, how can that be? Why didn't Fitz pursue that? Could it be that the source (voice keeps whispering Armitage) was not in the WH and therefore not compelled to provide a waiver? Not in the WH and therfore of no interest to Fitz who cared only about some leaks as we well know.

Or, was his source Tenet who presumably was in a position to know Plame was not an undercover agent and revelation of her name violated no law? Did the source merely say Wilson's wife got him the Mission and the gossip and Harlow provided the rest? My head hurts and I just woke up.

Cheez-Wiz

And if I seem harsh-sorry-but you people trash folks like me in absentia all the time-moonbat this, troll that, lefty lefty lefty.

Well here I am-Moonbat personified. Give me your wildest theories.

Bush in a speech today said "much of the intelligence was wrong" Now isn't this the site where people still believe WMDs were actually found?

So what the hell is Bush talking about?

NorthWstPHD

Cheez-Wiz:

many in the beltway are getting tidbits that Wilson himself is going to be the direct target of this newest Grand Jury, with hints that Cooper might face a smaller insignificant charge. If you wern't such a mouth-breather, maybe you could slow down your hyperventalation and read about some of the evidence that has been presented against each of them and understand that it carries some significant weight right now.

Cheez-Wiz

Right-Northwest-Washington whispers are that Wilson and Cooper are to be indicted and "Fox news contributor" and all around right wing hack Byron York pens a whole column on Rove's possible indictment.

I'm putting you on my idiot list.

kim

You can believe that much of the intelligence was wrong and still believe that Saddam was threatening enough to take out. It's the intelligent choice.
============================================

boris

putting you on my idiot list

LOL ! All your lists are idiot lists.

NorthWstPHD

Well, when you are the one that is wrong, I guess that list is going to be pretty long, or you're going to be the only one on it.

Look, Wilson lied to the jury previously, thats been shown on this site and others long before now. Rove, if guilty, would have left the White House long before now to try to reduce the damage to both himself and his proteges. Rove would be the main man in the know, and so far his continued existance is quite enough to determine his innocence.

Moose

"If the Libruhls you speak of actually practice Christmas. Too busy sipping their lattes and sucking up to the ACLU to hang their "holiday" stockings, I'm betting."

I just wish they'd let the rest of us have our Christmas in peace. I'm sick of hearing them whine about how we Christians shouldn't practice our faith in public just because it offends them. It offends me when they stand up for Nazis and Al Qaeda, but you don't see me whining about it.

As for Joe Wilson, the less said about him the better. After all's said and done, I hope he and Matt Cooper share a jail cell together. They deserve one another.

Cheez-Wiz

So why didn't Libby resign until the day of indictment, Northwest?

You're saying Rove is a more honorable man than Libby?

noah

Is this CW, DougJ, Marion, Katrina, or JayDee?

Maybe Tom can look behind the curtain and tell us.

TP

NWPHD. I don't think Joe ever testified before the GJ, did he?

clarice

He didn't, TP. He was, he said, interviewed by the FBI early in the investigation. Presumably under oath--but who knows?

NorthWstPHD

Because Libby was never the real target and isn't a symbol of the Republican party. His indictment was a head fake, nothing more.

NorthWstPHD

clarice is right, he gave testimony to the FBI that then used it for the Grand Jury. Its still the same thing, though. Lying to federal officers is just as bad.

ed

North West, how did Wilson lie to the jury if he didn't testify before the jury. What were his lies. you're very confusing.

clarice

NW--I live here and I must confess except for MacRanger who has hinted all along that Cooper is in danger, I have heard nothing.
I hope you're right, because I think Wilson and the VIPS were the first to leak Plame's name--I think Wilson did it for years to puff up his creds and the VIPS joined in when they were peddling their disinformation campaign centered on the distinguished envoys' Mission.

I think Libby's defense that he heard it first from reporters is likely--he just (a) can't remember which one(s) or (b) they are lying thru their teeth.

clarice

NW is right--lying to the FBI is the same thing, especially as anything Wilson said which was relevant was read to the gj in their deliberations.

Cheez-Wiz

His indictment was a head fake? What's his jail time going to be-a butt fake?

You people are impossible-back to lurking and laughing at you with contempt in silence. See ya-wouldn't want to be ya. (If you're Karl Rove that is)

maryrose

CW
Get A clue. Both men are honorable. The only people opining that they are not is the MSM. who are screaming off with their heads like the Red Queen.

marianna

"Too busy sipping their lattes and sucking up to the ACLU to hang their "holiday" stockings, I'm betting."

They'll be getting two lumps of coal in their stockings: (1) Libby walks and (2) Congress passes a Christmas protection act which prevents them from spoiling everyone else's Christmas with their frivolous ACLU lawsuits.

Merry Christmas, everyone.

clarice

Are there any signs that Cooper or Wilson are in danger?

I see nothing about Wilson though he deserves to be.

As to Cooper we have V. Novak's testimony as a possible sign and the fact that he hasn't had anything in Time since Oct 23 though, unlike Novak, neither he nor the mag have said anything about a leave of absence.

NorthWstPHD

I'm thinking CW is this DougJ character I saw on Washington Monthly and it seems someone above may be implying the same thing. Just another liberal moonbat incapable of assessing a situation before getting all the facts.

TP

NW. DougJ's posts were more like, for lack of a better word, yours. : ^ )

Cheez-Wiz

Goddamn you people are losers. I am Cheez Wiz-the ultimate liberal warrior.

But forget the drama. Stay focused on the facts. Both you and the mean bitter and twisted clarice have stated Wilson's lying to the FBI should him an indictment.

Of course since it was Rove who actually lied to the FBI, why would you continue to disparage his imminent hoosegowdom?

Cheez-Wiz

Oh brother. You're telling me I'm arguing with a lefty spoofing a righty? Makes sense to me now.

TP

CW, on the other hand, is a self admitted moonbat who casts his pearls before swine.

clarice

"Mean, bitter and twisted"? That stings. I was sure you'd say witty,logical and perspicacious.%^)

TP

It is fun to watch, though.

dogtownGuy

"Mean, bitter and twisted"

The King of Cheese meets kettle.

Jim E.

How does TM know that Fitz never asked Rove about Cooper early on?

Jim E.

Cheese-Whiz,

If Rove is indicted, the folks around here would rub their hands and snicker about how this shows that Joe Wilson, Matt Cooper, and MSM are *really* in trouble and that Fitz's going to get them next. Head fake and all.

Either that, or they will ramp up their smears of Fitz. Maybe both.

clarice

Subpoena I think--It centered on stuff re conversations with Libby--nothing about Rove.

Cheez-Wiz

Yes TP- I must say this crowd is somewhat endearing in their ignorance. It's a fun kind of stupid-not the all too earnest stupidity of redstate.org, the 'Bush is doing god's work' stupidity of polipundit.com or even the 'Bush is god' stupidity of Hugh Hewitt.

Just a right folksy down home kinda stupidity. The kind of stupidity a man could settle down in and raise some little frothing at the mouth wingnuts in...

Well, "I've said too much"

clarice

I can't imagine why someone would choose, then, to spend so much time debating people he considered so stupid. Perhaps the geniuses at DU would be more to your liking.
In any event, I generally like this place because most posters are very smart and not given to juvenile ad homs..But that just could be bitter,mean and twisted of me.

dogtownGuy

King of Cheese

and Daily Kos is helping you win elections?

TP

CW. However, you have established your bona fides as an expert on stupidity. : ^ )

Patrick R. Sullivan

' I am Cheez Wiz-the ultimate liberal warrior.'

Quite so.

noah

Cheese Whiz:

Marion..."Novak will be indicted"

JayDee..."All Republicans are racists"

That kind of stupid?

Cheez-Wiz

Clarice-really honey-spare me the piety. You ad hom all the time-just not to people who are in the room-it's very standupish of you.

Philly Cheesesteak

Cheez-Wiz,
Merry Christmas!!! Relax, all is well, Jesus Loves You!!!

Your friend,
Philly

Cheez-Wiz

Your right Noah-JayDee didn't work out his Venn diagrams well enough and hence fell for the fallacy of the undistributed middle.

Not all Republicans are racists-but all racists are Republicans.

noah

Cheez-Wiz (got your spelling right this time): What was that logical fallacy again?

ed

Clarice, we're just twiddlin' our thunbs until you get that story up here.

TP

When did Al Sharpton switch parties?

Santy Claws

Hey everyone, lay off on Cheez-wiz. I find him very entertaining. I say the more the libs open their yaps the better!

On cheesy! On Deano! On Dingy! On Murtha! On Nancy! On J F'n K!

Ho, Ho, Ho!!!!

noah

TM should require a minimum IQ in order to post here. You flunk, CW. Plus you are nasty.

Cheez-Wiz

Argumentum ad Republicanum.

It's the fallacy that any rational truth can be arrived by arguing with a Republican. They're just too dumb.

That's why I prefer to skip the debate and head right to the abuse.

owl

Clarice and NW....that is what I thought made sense UNTIL Fitz's storytelling. What would explain such?

noah

...we had another moonbat just last week that threatened to leave for about 20 posts!

wildmon

"and Daily Kos is helping you win elections?"

Don't forget the ACLU. With friends like that, who need enemas?

dogtownGuy

"but all racists are Republicans."

Not true...you wasted no time attacking what you perceive to be a NeoCon Cabal member, Clarice = Jew

you are just too transparent.

clarice

Owl,I think he was hoodwinked into Wilson's storyline and ,because of that and the DoJ restrictions re reporters and the press fight, kept his investigation focused at too small a point(did Libby and Rove say anything to reporters) and missed the big picture(Plame wasn't undercover, lots of people, including the press, knew about her before Libby or Rove did, and he was being used in a political shitfight). I do not know, however, if he is stepping back now and seeing that.

Sue

Cheez-Whiz,

You would be sooooo wrong that all racists are republicans.

owl

Sure hope you are right Clarice. I will eat my ugly comments if he proves he can get pass the MSM petting. I like Mac's version.

GTG..you all hold the fort and close the leaks until tomorrow. :)

NorthWstPHD

From what I understand Fitz is being forced to slow his investigation and look at more angles than that which takes him to the highest point (Rove). With Rove stopping his investigation cold in its tracks 2 weeks ago with new information, Fitz stands to look like an imbecile. If the libbies thought Starr was a waste of money, wait until us real Conservatives think of the waste the Fitz will leave behind. In order for him not to come out of it, he's going to indict the only other person on this whole conspiracy that committed a crime, Joseph Wilson.

Sue

Clarice,

See, the thing is, it wouldn't matter, legally, if everyone did know about her, except in the court of public opinion. If someone talked about her to anyone not cleared to receive that classified information, they are technically guilty of mishandling classified information. My question is why did Fitzgerald not indict on what is so obviously something that happened and instead chose to indict on the old, tired, stand-by...perjury, false statement?

Bottom line, I don't think Fitzgerald is looking at reporters or Wilson. I don't think he cares what they were talking about or when they were talking about it, other than how it fits in with Libby/Rove or some other individual in the government who should not have been discussing classified information to someone not authorized to receive it.

clarice

The short answer, Sue, is materiality. If the investigation is about a bank burglary and you told the FBI a fib about what you had for lunch and the lie was deliberate , it still doesn't matter.
Saying you heard something from reporters first when you heard it from someone else first even if that were deliberate hardly warrants a perjury charge if what you told wasn't classified information, was widely known, and caused no harm.

We go back to the fact that Fitz failed in not first determining if Plame and the "leaking" of her name met the test of the Agee Act, and it clearly didn't. Had he done what he was tasked to do in a logical way, this would have been over in a month or two.

epphan

Not all Democrats are anti-American. But all those who are anti-American are Democrats.

MaryC

"I just wish they'd let the rest of us have our Christmas in peace. I'm sick of hearing them whine about how we Christians shouldn't practice our faith in public just because it offends them."

Exactly. How come it's so acceptable to bash Christians lately? I have no problem with other faiths, but it seems that all other faiths have a problem with us? Christmas is about Christ, and why does everybody find Christ so offensive all of a sudden? It's sad, really.

ed

what does that have to do with the investigation? therein lies your problem. people don't have a problem with Christmas until people start injecting it into discussions in which it has no place.

TM

why didn't Hadley ever produce this email (or did he)?

I would love to know just how document searches work at the White House - I assume emails are on a central servcer (and I know there are laws regulating that).

But in that case, how can Rove be responsible for searching his own emails? Some archivist in the legal area would have to do that.

I just find the notion that Rove spent afternoons going through old Outlook folders absurd.

But in that case, where is the accountability? If the archivists can't find Rove's old, relevant email, how is Rove responsible?

As to Hadly not producing it - same question.

How does TM know that Fitz never asked Rove about Cooper early on?

Faith based initiative - you guys knock the power of prayer at your peril. However, since Cooper wasn't in the indictment, Rove can say, hey, they sprung it on me in the interview, we had never looked for notes on a specific contact with Cooper, I blew it.

epphan

Ed:

Merry Christmas!

ed

Thanks! Jewish though.

clarice

TM:"However, since Cooper wasn't in the indictment," You mean in the subpoena don't you?


Here is the best round up I can recall on the Cooper fandango: suspicious

TM

Ooops, subpoena, yes, thanks.

Sue

If you go to Fitzgerald's website and read his briefs, you will see the direction he is going. And, unless he has done a 180, he is after Whitehouse officials, not reporters, not Wilson.

dorf

CW: I am Dorf and I am SLOW, so tell me again where Rove lied. S-P-E-C-I-F-I-C-L-Y L-I-E-D.

dorf

CW: add an "A" in there for me genius.

clarice

Sue, I haven't heard the same rumors NWP says he has, so I can't comment on that. OTOH we know that after Fitz's last presser, Woodward came forward, V. Novak testified and today Novak says he thinks his source was the same as Woodward's (and that does seem to be someone other than Libby or Rove--someone who told him well before the Wilson op ed and therefore damaging to the "retaliation" fairytale). There may be some basis for those rumors that the investigation is now headed elsewhere.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Wilson/Plame